president? >> the 1824 election. >> that was used against henry clay the rest of his life and one of his major political mistakes. there were four people in that race. the constitution says the top three vote getters, not a majority will go to the house of representatives. each state will have one vote. henry clay ended up number four on that list. he probably shouldn't have been on the list. if he got in as speaker of the house he would have been able to use that to win. he became the president maker and not the president. and before he even left kentucky, before he left ashland he had said he wanted -- favored johns quincy adams for president. adams had the same viewpoints. jackson called a mere general and clay always feared that napoleons of the world, feared america would elect these generals and would use some pretext, take over and become a dictator like napoleon had during his life. so clay really went to

washington knowing to support ad amounts. mistake was not supporting adams. it was getting enough states to vote for adams to be president because he didn't need it. adams was elected. clay made a big mistake and accepted the offer of the secretary of state position from john quincy adams. stepping stone to the presidency. half his people said he should do and it half the people said he shouldn't. he couldn't turn it down. that was then dash used against him as a corrupt bargain. >> andrew jackson was his great nemesis. what was jackson's position on slavery? >> much more hostile than probably one of the first presidents. he cleared out what he considered a threat from florida. he's -- one of his major campaigns into florida was the issue of free blacks with british support. living in florida. along with native americans who

were raiding into american tefts, taking slaves out of the united states. so he's very hostile towards any idea of freedom and much more so. >> nextel phone call from scott who is watching news boston. hello, scott. >> caller: hi. how are you? >> great. thanks. do you have a henry clay question for us? >> caller: i do. i went to school ini eastport, maine. very close to canada. henry clay had insisted after the of 1812, the island had been taken by the british. he insisted when he negotiated the end of the treaty, the island be returned to the united states. even when john quincy adams who was another negotiator was willing to sort of let the -- canada have the -- let british have the island. i'm wondering if any of the

historians would know why he was so adamant on the return of the island in eastport to america. >> i don't know if you know the specific. >> i'm not an expert on moose island and why clay -- i do know that clay in making the treaty of 1812 took the strongest position of all the american delegates. he wanted america to have a strong position. clay tended to try to get everything he could and i'm not sure on moose island. i hope there is another historian out there that could tell us we talked before we got started live about clay's antipathy towards the british. what can you tell us about that as a general point in his philosophy? >> he fell, of course, the british were still trying to hold on and punish america with the war of 1812. he wanted a war with england. he felt america, despite the fact we had a very small army, small navy, could still beat england.

i don't know if that was a source of pride or ego or what that was with clay. but i often wondered his -- if it had something to do with the british asking african-americans to fight against americans during the war of 1812. if that could have been a part of it. >> there's also -- when he was a young man, and apparently his father's grave had just been dug, supposedly british soldiers came into the household. and they were trying to raid the household and actually thrust their swords into the freshly dug grave thinking there might be goods that were hidden there. he an an tip t-- antipathy earl. when he got to britain after it was signed he stayed over there several months and met all important british people. he came back with a different view of the british. he still feared them and thought they would try bully america.

had now became known as prince how el because he associated with royalty so much. he may have gotten -- off on him. >> let's talk about the 1832 election. we are talking about andrew jackson when he faced off against him for the president. >> i 1832, probably -- election to clay couldn't win. jackson was popular still. the things that make historians upset with andrew jackson like his indian policy, policy towards african-americans, those were positives for andrew jackson in his era. in the south particularly and in 1832, the -- clay also faced the fact there was a third party out there that would end up taking -- mostly from the wig party, party that became the wigs. the anti-masonic party. the whole issue of masonry which we still hear today, movies and things like that about it. the -- anti-mass onlyic party

about masonists should be done away with. >> clay was mason? >> clay was mason and andrew jackson was a mason. clay was not a practically mason at the time. it took votes away from him. he probably would have had a hard time winning anyway. jackson was popular. the bank issue came up for clay's -- recharter the national bank of america. jackson vetoed it. clay thought it would be a very popular issue. people would -- go to him and say this is the right thing 20 do. he didn't realize that jackson vetoed message was great political message because it made andrew jackson speak to the people and against the corporate monopoly, this bank. and clay couldn't win on that issue. and so clay lost on several levels. >> how close was the election? >> clay got 48 electoral votes and jackson got 219.

let's return to the tour operations director at ashland now on the second floor. avery, what do you have for us? >> we are in the henry clay bedroom right now. we have henry clay's dueling pistols purchased in 1799. and later we believe these went to war with his son in mexico. henry was in two duels. one with humphrey marshall and one with john randolph. the duel with john randolph takes us back to henry clay and speaker of the house. when henry was chosen as speaker of the house he was chosen partly because they thought here is a man who can meet john randolph on the floor or on the field. and it happened that they met on the field. john randolph compared henry

clay to a character in the novel "tom jones." called him the card cheat on the senate floor. henry was than there to defend himself. and felt no man should have to endure such a dishonor. he challenged john randolph to a duel. randolph was great shot with pistols and clay was not. a he decided to shoot at the ground. fortunately nobody was seriously injured in either henry clay's duels. >> henry clay was not a great shot. why did he get involved in it? >> the whole issue -- clay had a real sense of honor. if your honor was attacked you had to defend it. sometimes he would defend it through newspaper stories, letters. he wrote too many of those. he thought only way to defend it

was to challenge someone. if they took the challenge he would twice went to the dueling grounds and used against him as well. randolph particularly -- >> this is senator john randolph of roanoke. >> yes. randolph of roanoke. a man who was very eccentric. and one of the great quotes about henry clay, may have been a -- applieder to people, too, but he said that henry clay is like a rotten mackerel in the moonlight. he both shines and stinks. that's a great vision there. randolph disliked a lot of the things he did but admired clay because clay had the ability to do things. and even in the last part of his life, randolph is a dying man who wanted to come to the floor of the senate. he said he could listen to the magnificent voice one more time. >> our nextel phone call is from david. san francisco, david, welcome. >> caller: thank you. one quick comment. that is anybody who thinks that today's politics is overly

divided should really take a look at the political verbiage. but then the question is this. particularly to the doctor is that do you find it a bit ironic the republican party which was formed out of the wig party has evolved from a party founded by henry clay on the basis of public works and federal and vocal projects into one that opposes all of that? particularly with mitch mcconnell's comments. thank you. >> hi, david. basically the -- wig party evolved into the republican party, abraham lincoln himself had been a wig and became a republican. had many of the aspects of the wig party. but in modern days parties have aspects of both of those. democratic party has a lot of the central -- factions of the

wig party. some of the republican business oriented sections come from the wig philosophy. in a sense, henry clay lives on in both parties. maybe doesn't live on enough in both parties but still lives on in both parties. >> comments from that question? >> certainly the -- you mentioned 1830s. you have the rise of the anti-slavery, a mention anti-slavery society. and he does develop some democratic ideals. he definitely supports -- against the idea of the gag rule in congress which many of the southerners and northerners want. and for the safety of freedom, he definitely overrules that idea. he wants these petitions, even though he doesn't support it, he wants it heard. >> before we get too far into the 1830s we really haven't spent time on one of the first lee great compromises he's known for -- missouri compromise.

>> missouri wanted to come into the union, 1820. the question is slave state or not. maine is about to enter at the same time. it ends up with the two come in. one is slave and one is free. that's not necessarily going to be decided at the beginning. the whole question of slavery is like when the -- slavery question arises it has been there smoldering like a fire and now the missouri compromise feeds that fire and brings it to forefront of the debates and debates. where will slavery -- will it continue? will it be everywhere in the nation? somewhere in the nation? limited? there's attempts to limit it completely. scla not the first to make the compromise. a lot of the ideas were here. came from other people. works to get through p. it is not his compromise. once it is through everything seems like it is done.

missouri -- passes a law that says free blacks in missouri. united states constitution as american citizens can go anywhere. so this is the compromise clay -- everything else is getting ready to fall apart. clay works out a very convoluted answer to that that satisfies everybody and satisfies nobody. at the same time it ends the crisis. he hopes the amendment slavery will not be an issue because to clay slavery is the real thorn in his side. he can never come up with a solution on that. and if it is -- if it is -- if it is a wound it is a self-inflicted wound because clay was a slave holder. >> that makes it difficult to please. he starts out people believing he is an he paemancipationist a on the north side. it is a no-win situation for him. >> we are halfway through our 90-minute discussion on the life and times of the contender, henry clay who ran for the white

house throughout most of his political career. five times in total. three times as his party's nominee. unsuccessful all the while. but the great effect on the direction and future of his country. we are going to take a very short break and be back at ashland, his home, in lexington, kentucky to talk more. welcome back to ashland. a place that has been preserved and is open for tours so people who -- spend their professionin will come down and visit. alicestyne, tell us about your college yes. i'm on professor at the university of louisville.

>> you were colleagues in georgetown? >> we were colleagues at georgetown college and that's where i teach american history now. >> where is georgetown? >> 12 miles northwest. >> when you were in college did you debate a lot? >> we did. we did. but it is hard to debate someone like jim. he definitely is a scholar on kentucky history. i try keep up 25 years of kentucky statehood historian, what does the job entail? >> basically self-defined job. to me it involves writing history of the state. i try to do that. involve working with people writing about the history and helping them, aiding them, helping, advice, suggestions. trying to stay out of the their way sometimes. also entails going around and giving talks to the state and people that live here. >> the reckor of tour operations is here with us. avery, would you tell us about how many people come to this

place, how every year, how it is financed? and how it is operated. >> well, it varies by season how many people you will find visiting ashland. certainly the tourists come when the leaves change and keenland is in null swing, christmas and throughout the summer. we have somewhere around 15,000 a year come to see us. we are financed through a variety of methods and means. and we are very fortunate to have all of our visitors and all of friends of ashland's who donate to keep us open and for us to tell the public about henry clay and come prom nice what year did the place open for tours? >> we opened in 1950 for tours. this was only two years after nanette bullock died. she was henry clay's great granddaughter. she was the one that preserved ashland by starting the henry clay memorial foundation. so just two years after she passed away.

we were only open downstairs and then after he moved out we opened throughout the house. >> all three of our guests available for your questions. let's take another one. this is from shelby watching us in sacramento, california. >> caller: yes. hello. i'm great grandson lauer who had help with the anti-slavery movement and before i get to my name question, i would like to say that he had a hardware store and when -- slaves would come into town and they needed to be housed his secret and magical phrase to his neighbors were we have two penny nails in. and my grandmother, myrtle lauer james, knew there was significance to that. she was given a horse, she named the horse two penny nails.

remembering all the slaves that were able to find freedom and what a great country this is and what a terrific thing to have c-span. i'm grateful to participate in this series. >> we appreciate it. we do need your question. we have a lot of callners line. >> caller: yes, yes. i saw masonry emblems on the buildings in the beautiful city of louisville, kentucky. my question was -- could you tell us, please, what association henry clay may have had with that city? thank you. >> okay. with the city of louisville. >> clay's son, henry clay jr., lived in liouisville and lexington. clay jr. used some of his life's money again to basically buy a lot of property in louisville on the rise. he became quite wealthy as a young man. that son -- ended up being killed in the mexican war. clay would visit there and help his son and it was -- a rival of

lexington, though. louisville clipped the population in 1830 for the first time. the river now -- riverboats there made louisville on the artery of communication and transportation. lexington was in the back for the water system. so the connection with louisville was a mixed one. it generally supported the wigs. >> next phone call is from willie. willy in columbus, ohio. you are on. >> caller: thank you. i would like to note real quickly any connection, any association, i have always been -- under the impression former heavyweight champion cassius clay always said that was his slave name. any association at all? thank you. >> certainly the name cassius marcellus clay stands out for americans because he was considered an abolitionist and

anti-slavery advocate in lexington. ran an anti-slavery newspaper. however, it is my understanding and maybe jim knows better inbut i don't think there was a real family connection with cassius marcellus clay. i did some research on that. the man known as muhammad ali was originally cassius marcellus clay. he was named for the abolitionist leader. but -- his family that he came from was from western kentucky. they just took that name because distant cousin of henry clay, abolitionist man, in the a slavery man certainly. they thought that was a good name to take when they had freedom. >> the election of 1840, 4e7bry clay tries once gore for his nomination. he was defeated by woman? >> hair son harrison turned around and offered clay, vice president at spot? >> i'm not sure he offered him

the vice president. offered him a choyfs cabinet positions. >> i'm thinking here is this chance to get that close because of the way fate played with the harrison president. >> i -- >> what did he offer? >> they had been rivals. here is another general, a man who said he hadn't voted for 30 years. when he was seeking the presidency. he had positions in indiana territory and other places, some history of accomplishments. not a great deal. clay is expecting to get the president -- time when the wigs think they will win because america is in a depression. wig policies look like they are the things you need to get you out of the depression. whoever they put out there will have a very good shot at beating the incumbent, mark van buren. clay wants it. this is one of those examples where henry clay is not a good politician. he is good in congress. he's not a good manager. he is not a good campaign -- doesn't have a campaign manager. trusts his own instincts too much rather than just the advice of other people.

he basically is outmaneuvered. they get a rule changed in the convention itself so clay -- had the majority of the votes, now said who will vote by number, vote by state delegation. the whole state goes to that person. that negated his advantage and loses out to harrison. harrison realized clay was very important in the wig party, obviously. he wants to make peace. didn't want clay on the opposite side. that's why he offered clay these positions. clay basically says he rather stay where he is and thinks he has more important things to do there. he doesn't really want to be associated with harrison presidency really. >> our next caller is bill here in lexington, kentucky. hi, bill. >> caller: hi. calling from washington. i'm actual lay teacher at henry clay high school which is right up the street where you are all sitting right now. i would like to ask whether the panelists think henry clay's reputation as a compromiser hurt

his chances of being president. and whether or not his -- three-time loser actually made it possible for him to have a greater impact on a more positive one on the country through his long legislative career? thank you. >> i'm going to ask all three of our guests very briefly to answer that question. we will start with you. >> i think being a compromiser, yes, by 1840 it definitely does hurt him. he is unwilling to change his position. his stand on anti-slavery of -- upsets new england and the northerners. he's trying to straddle the fence and i think it does hurt him more than help him. >> avery, the question on his years as a compromiser ultimately hurt him in his quest important the presidency. what do you tell people? >> i'm not sure but bag

compromiser is not universally popular when someone is seeking a position of power. people usually want you to take a strong stance. >> and your thoughts? >> emerson said that a foolish consistency about -- small minds. clay was not consistent all of his life. one time opposed when he was a rung man and favored one later on. and he changed the little one, different positions over time. he gave up in 1833 compromise. his enemies used that against him and said he wasn't consistent but would compromise as long as there were votes. i don't think that was the case. i think -- but he's willing to take a change and make a change and say that he had been wrong. that's hard for a politician to do. sometimes costs and you it cost him. >> we had an earlier caller that wanted to -- referenced this and talked about henry clay's views of the british. we will see that in just a minute.

what was the significance of the treaty? >> ends the war of 1812 which americans are not winning at the time the delegates over there and the it gets worse because they thought the british would be fighting ma pole onand napoleon is out of the way by the time the treaty's deliberations start. the americans have not -- not negotiated a place of strength. but in a sense, they get about the best treaty they can. they do as well as they can. s it is one of our best delegations ever. john quincy adams, henry clay, three other people of importance there. and it draws out and takes a long time to come about that they -- given the fact they didn't have a lot to work with, come in with a strong treaty for america. it was held that way, too. interest didn't hurt and andrew jackson won the battle of new orleans after the treaty had been signed. there's almost like would things came at the same time. looked like we won the war. even though the treaty had been signed before the battle. >> avery, you have the guest jacket. can you tell us about it and its

significance. >> yes. we have the jacket here. this is the diplomatic issue jacket henry clay would have been given to go against and negotiate peace. this jacket is very significant it is one of the few pieces in the collection we have that belong to henry clay. this jacket also served a as an artifact during the time the kentucky a&m was here. they used this jacket as an artifact then as well. >> we are going back to telephone calls. michael? >> caller: good evening. my family and i grew up in milwaukee, wisconsin. and in the '50s we all went to henry clay elementary school for seven years. he's always been a source of fascination for me. i used to -- lexington on business and i'm sorry i didn't realize you guys were there. i have a very simple question. this very bestselling but -- bestselling biography on him. called henry clay, essential american by david hidler.

it is very popular. i'm wondering if you read it. would it be a good choice for me to learn about henry clay? do you have something else to suggest? thank you very much. >> well, we just happen to have tyler's book here. it is one of the several books available in the bookstore. they have a number of biographies. i'm going to ask both of you, what would be the book you would pick out about henry clay? >> that's the most recent biography and has a lot of experience on the team inside. henry clay. and it is -- newest biography. if you want political emphasis, p about 20 years old on henry clay, about the same size. but if you want to start out on something smaller, there's -- a book with a chapter on henry y clay and has a good introduction on henry clay. you want to compare clay and

webster, peterson did a book in the '70s. it is a good balanced book on all three men. nice comparison to start with. lindsey apple did a book to family legacy of henry clay. apple's book is excellent and it also takes clay's family beyond just his lifetime. >> what would you pick up eitup? >> the things i read that -- because it does bring in daniel webster and some of the other important figures of the time, for african-americans it puts it in perspective as far as what's going on in the country and what the great debates are about. so definitely -- i have not read the newer version. i'm waiting for jim's book that's coming out. that will be the next one that i will pick up to read. >> when and what is the next

book? >> henry clay and the american presidency. >> how about that? perfect timing. >> great rejected is a quote that was said about clay at the end of his life. he was the great rejective by the people. he stood out because of that. i'm about to finish writing it this month, early next month. then i have to go to the publication process. about a year away, i hope. >> the current speaker of the house has many of his powers, i think that he can look back to. speakership of henry clay. and he spoke about henry clay recently. let's listen to speaker john boehner. >> henry clay was the first -- what i call strong speaker of the house. the real leader of the house. when -- when our country was founded and congress was put together, the first speakers of the first 20 years or so came out of the english parliament