they were more of a referee. didn't have any real power. but clay was the first real speaker of the house that had power. and there's a lot of things you can say about roles and the speaker, henry clay was clearly a very strong speaker. and if you look at the period from 1820 to 1860 there was no one person in the united states more responsible for holding our union together than henry clay. >> by the way, that was from an event that was organized by the folks here at ashland where they invited all living speakers to come and talk about the role of speakers. and that was held at the university here and it is -- on our video library. if you would like go back and watch it. quite an interesting event that they hosted here bipartisan discussion about the role of speakers. to both of you, how did henry clay enhance the powers of the speaker? >> force of his personality, i

think the mere -- no one wanted to debate him. certainly he had the force to win the argument. so i think that alone had great influence and power. i don't know if any other speaker would be compared to. >> he also understood the power of committee assignments. >> the committees -- as i say the committees basically -- he understood the speaker had the power to put the people he want order committees. when something important -- he was known to be a fair man as speaker. that was very important. both sides of the aisle respected him. respected his opinions. he was never overwritten in his rulings. and he -- he basically was fair in the makeup of the committee. but -- he knew there was a certain issue coming up you can see a slight inclination to put the -- to that issue he wanted the issue to go a certain way. he understood very early that and changed the rules, changed with his backing and gave the speaker more power and limit debate. things like that.

allowed him to be a much more important powerful figure than anybody before. his force and his will had made it as important as anything else. >> nextel phone call is from raymond, kalamazoo, michigan. hi, raymond. raymond, we are going to move on. let's take a call from lonny, chevy chase, maryland. you are on the air. >> caller: good evening. lincoln referred to clay as his ideal as a statesman. i always believed that the two men had never met. however, recently i came across a web page which purported to show a book, i belief it was inscribed by clay to lincoln. could the panel comment on this? what's the thinking now? did clay and lincoln ever meet? >> louisville -- did we meet -- >> we don't know basically. there's -- one person who left a

memoir about the turn of the -- between 19th and 20th century that said that person had seen the two in lexington. abraham lincoln married mary todd lincoln. mary todd who was from lexington. and her family was very closely aligned with the clays. so -- her family knew the clays. lincoln came to kentucky several times in connection with the family in the states. and he certainly heard -- heard -- henry clay speak. imagine what a great time it would have been had -- you have to think they tried to meet if nothing else. had lincoln come to ashland and the two of them sit here in the parlor and clay would say, you know, something to and mr. lincoln say and that reminds me of a store write and go back and forth. lincoln never said he met clay. so i think that's very possibly he would have said that. he did say clay was his idea of

an ideal statesman. when he wrote his inaugural, he did four things with him in -- to get house -- write the inaugural with. one of those four items was henry clay's speech in the compromise of 1850. clay's effect on abraham lincoln was important during the douglas debates. lincoln said his views of the -- views of clay were his views of abraham lincoln as well. >> we must spend time talking about the 1844 election. so let's listen to a question from charles. >> caller: my question is this. i was born in kentucky, the home of rosemary clooney. and i understand from the panel, your two guests, henry clay is considered the favorite son of kentucky. although he and lincoln were

members of the wig party, i don't understand how he could be the favorite son and not abraham lincoln. who -- when he met harriet beacher stowe, had you that lady that started this great war and -- she had never mentioned nor is uncle tom who is -- i consider the greatest christian in american literature. neither are mentioned ever as being great in their time. and yet on the times in which they lived and even today, their influences is greatly felt. especially by -- many african-americans who are historically informed. why is not lincoln? >> your response, please? >> abraham lincoln certainly -- kentucky, he may have started off as being friends in kentucky. certainly the emancipation proclamation is issued, he becomes a much hated figure here in kentucky.

so -- henry clay, who considered himself a werner, but -- many southerners would have -- would choose him over abraham lincoln who is certainly considered a traitor. you mentioned harriet beacher stowe who -- is a popular kentucky figure. we read and study her. lincoln in that relationship, he is much more popular in the north of new england than he ever becomes in the south. particularly at the end of the civil war. >> lincoln in 1860 running on the morning ticket received -- i think five votes in his home county. even his in-laws didn't vote for him. he received a thousand votes in the entire state of kentucky. on to vote for lincoln in 1860 for kentucky, like voting for a communist in the 1950s. he just didn't have any support here. and kentucky -- to begin the war, wanted union and slavery. when he decides the war by the

middle of the war is a war against slavery finally, that turns many kentuckians against the administration. the state had been union began the war. so lincoln and his party are on the outs. kentucky for a long period of time. it is only in the 20th century kentucky starts replay ring abraham lincoln with the building of the memorial in first place and then lincoln commissioned created in the 21st century. so kentucky reclaimed lincoln. he was on the wrong side after the war. >> how far from where we are physically is the lincoln birth place? >> it is probably an hour and 15 minute drive straight down the interstate. >> in that time period how long would it have taken to cross? >> it took -- it took henry clay to go from lexington, frankfurt, 25 miles all day sometimes in the mud. that's why he was so much in favor of putting better roads and canal was federal government aid.

>> by the way, during this discussion of lincoln, we had a brief picture of an artifact that you have here in the collection which has an inscription. tell us what we were looking at. >> yes, this is called "the life and speeches of henry clay." there is an inscription that says to abraham lincoln with constant regard to friendship. ashland, h. clay, 1847. we believe that this book was given to -- abraham lincoln from clay as sort of a gift to lincoln in exchange for what we believe lincoln would have given a condolence gift to henry clay after his son henry jr. was killed in the mexican/american war. >> we don't know those were delivered personally? >> we don't. we don't know if they ever met. there's no documentation to say that they have. we know at least that henry clay did know abraham lincoln. there must have been some type of a relationship based on this artifa artifact. >> we have a little less than 20 minutes left in our 90 minutes

on henry clay. first of our 14 contenders in our look at american history. let's take our nextel phone calls from louisville. this is rob watching us nearby. hi, rob. >> caller: actually, it is rob zblin i'm soar write. heal >> i'm sorry. robin. >> caller: i have three questions. i will go really fast and get out of the way. your guest mentioned clay's contradictions. the connection to abolitionists early on. i want to know whether he changed his mind or political posturing e in posturing. another caller mentioned the two cassius clays. i'm curious as to whether it is known whether or not henry clay or any of the household members or immediate family members had any known -- like jefferson. third question, politicians often have political or aristocratic lineage.

i'm curious to know if it is known -- any other prominent politicians share henry clay's lineage. now i'm out of your way. thank you. >> before you go, have you been here? to the house? we lost her. she lives so close by. abolitionists and whether or not his position changed or posturing. >> i think it would be wrong to call hum clay an abolitionist. he was definitely not an abolitionist. he was for the idea of emancipation. and no, he never changed his position on that. and as we discussed earlier, especially in the election of 1840, it hurts him. the fact that he does -- tries to waffle. but, no, he never backs away from his idea of emancipation. >> cassius clay. >> 1799, clay speaks out the first time publicly in kentucky against slavery. letter to the local paper. and -- 50 years later, when he does the same thing again,

kentucky trying to adopt a new constitution and hope to get slavery abolished but doesn't happen. he takes the same stance. over a 50-year period consistent. thing is over that 50 years the world -- his views are still the same. >> her question about cassius clay? >> i know of no -- question about whether or not they are african-american, no. i'm not aware of that. >> whether or not he had any descendants african-americans. >> there were at least one story that appeared 40 years after henry clay's death that -- a woman said that she had been a mistress of henry clay's. but i have found nothinging to substantiate that story. there were also several henry clays in this area. it ma i have -- mixed up with somebody else. there's a list of -- i mean, you can -- pretty much compiled a list of the clays' slaves and i didn't see her name there anywhere. i don't think that happened.

cassius clay probably not either as far as i know. there was off spring but in russia. offspring showed up at his door one day in white hall. cashious clay home in k-- cassis clay. >> remember her action question? >> if anybody, i think, she said was -- if anybody -- politicians have the same connection, connection to clay as far as being related to clay, i'm not sure that there -- know of anybody else. >> no family dynasty in politics. >> i don't think so. >> all right. moving on. we are going to run out of time. 1844 election. he was successful in securing the wig. what were the issues? was it real personal politics?

or both? >> well -- clay goes in as a favorite on this for a change. and james polk is the first dark horse candidate for the presiden vice presidency. democrats are scrambling. clay had been organizing the campaign important two years. biographies everywhere. pictures. names. all kinds of ribbons and buttons and metals. the democrats coming from behind have to attack and they attack clay pretty heavily on all those issues. 18 44, bad things happen between he and lay. writes too many letters and says too many things. looks like he's waffling on the issue. issues of drinking and gambling comes back against him, used against clay. and i think it is -- it is more of the combination of things that defeat clay than --

standard view is that the texas an e issue, northern abolitionists and others of the north, war with mexico which it does. clay opposes bs it unless it takes place on peaceful basis. he is going against america's manifest destine write. he is going against the mood and i don't think that defeats him. he wins votes because of his stand on that as well and loses some votes. it is more of a whole -- slew of issues and then there's -- issues of fraud and bad luck and things like that which -- claim every election he goes through as well. >> you hear a lot about this being an example of the early example of the politics of the personal destruction. was henry clay a -- >> i think he was his own worst enemy. he trusted the wrong people, i think in 1844 campaign. he -- doesn't listen to his adviser. this is still a problem for him in 1844. he believes his own press that

he is the favorite and he doesn't see the challenges as serious so he is not really campaigning. so -- yeah. he shoots himself in the foot a couple of times. >> he opposed texas annexation leading to war with mexico. his son goes to fight in that war. what happens to his son? >> his son is killed in the war. his son lost his wife a few years before. almost -- was very depressed for a period of time. almost like he was trying to go off to fight to -- forget as much as anything else. he's wounded and tells his men to leave him and reright and they do. he's killed. some parts are sent back to clay from the killing of his son. it hits him very hard. and clay makes anti-war speech. basically says that -- i support the troops. i oppose the war. it is a speech that many people

consider very courageous speech because it was going against the national movement in the south particularly which is one of his constituents areas. >> let's take another call. this molly. bridge ton, new jersey. hi, molly. >> caller: hello. i was wondering if you -- your panelist could talk about relationships between john quincy adams and henry clay. >> thank you. >> molly, clay and adams were very mismatched couple. adams is the new england puritan background. if you read his diary, he is critical of everybody includes himself. only happy in some ways talking to himself and even then not happy. he's critical. he's a man of great talent. he speaks many foreign languages. he's -- well versed in the presidency, son of a president. there's a great passage about his diaries where when -- adams

is getting up at 4:00 in the morning. henry clay is coming in from a night of card playing. adams looks -- frowns with this and says this is mockery of henry clay. you can turn it around and say it is the other way around. this is -- john quincy adams. henry clay is a very different kind of a person. and they -- they constantly talked to each other and didn't like each know a lot of ways. but they respected each other. when clay makes john quincy adams president of the united states, 1825, everybody pecksed they would fight and would break away from each other. clay is a very loyal secretary of state. and adams gave more respect to clay and clay has more respect for adams. they may not -- may not be friends but certainly respectful of each other the rest of their lives. >> we are reaching back from the -- into material part of henry clay's career. this is a good time to look at one of ashland's prized -- most prized possessions.

will you tell us about it? >> yes. we do have the washington goblet here. and this was the item of greatest patriotic inspiration in henry clay's home. you can see that it is chipped or broken and this is how henry clay received it. and he wrote about how he had received this from the elderly laidy was gift. it had belonged to george washington through most of the revolutionary war. he used this like an artifact in his house. and really used it to connect us to our early nationhood and object to venerate washington. he felt washington as many throughout the country did was a great inspiration to our country. and hoped to inspire patriotism in people that visited here in ashland. >> we are quickly running out of time here. since we have you, let me ask you about henry -- and -- clay and his wife and how often they lived here together. he had such a long political career. required him to be in washington so frequently.

did his family move to washington with him? did they remain behind most of the time? >> his family did go with henry clay to washington early on. but around the 1830s was really the last time she would go with henry clay to washington. she had plenty here on the farm to keep her busy. there were children and grandchildren here to occupy her time. she was never one to really enjoy the limelight. she was not heavily into fashion and attention. so she did enjoy the solace ashland provided here. in the later part of henry clay's life, last half, believed he was gone as much as he was home. and -- some surmised henry clay was addicted to travel. which is one thing we probably all like to do more of. but henry was gone quite frequently to campaign, henry was gone working washington. and on trips, for instance to see his daughter in new orleans. >> next squall frhi there.

really enjoying the program. >> thanks. >> caller: my last name is watkins. gerald watkins. watkins, and henry clay was related to me. so i'm real proud of henry clay and that connection, but my question, the three times he won the nomination, it seems like the timing really was not good for his candidacy. they soeemed doomed. was there a presidential election that he could have won the presidency? >> i think they could have won in 1840 pretty reasonably, and in 1848 zachary taylor is going to be the wig nominee, and henry clay opposed any general. clay particularly opposed zachary taylor because taylor had done nothing other than be a general, and he had never voted even before he ran for president. clay very reluctantly tries to

get the nomination in 1848 and fails. clay got that nomination and i think he would have won, too. the democrats were divided that year. clay was quoted by someone as saying, you know, that years he could get the nomination he can't. his friends are basically deserting him because john jay critn critna of kentucky was a backer of clay. >> since we fast forwarded to 1848, let's move ahead to 1850. henry clay's last big effort on public policy and the compromise of 1850. what was that compromise all about? set the stage for us about what was happening in this country. >> 1850, this decision about the expansion -- how slave states, whether they come in as free or slave holding. the idea of strengthening the

fugitive slave law, of course, becomes one of the breaking points. the idea of california, of whether or not -- so the decision ends up being california can make its own decision about whether or not slaves can be held in the state. missouri comes in -- new mexico and arizona, exactly. so, again, we are now truly into the manifest destiny where the united states reaches from coast to coast. for afterwards the strengthening of the fugitive slave law becomes a major issue in american politics leading up to the civil war. >> jim, we have about four minutes left. on the compromise of 1850, henry clay was not successful. he was reaching the end of his strength in health. how did all it turn out. >> it says something about monterey clay in 1849 he comes back to the senate. he'd been at home leaving this quiet and piece and serenity of

ashland. he has nothing to gain, and he's not running for president anymore. he comes out of retirement to save the country in his mind one more time in 1850 with the compromise. in missouri he'd broken all the little piece up and got them passed one by one. in 1850 he listened to someone they put it altogether in the omnibus bill. it doesn't pay. clay goes off to rhode island to take the waters, and bill does pass piecemeal under steven douglas. clay that and was support upped this, it will

he's viewed people come from all over. the trains are coming in, and thousands of people in lexington for the funeral. so it's national news. >> i think the thing about that monument, there's monuments to clay. i think he's got more images in the nation's capital than any other individual, atlantic magazine in 2006 was one of the most influential americans of all time. the best to clay is not those things. i think it's the fact that henry clay kept a divided nation together. one nation united and still a working democracy and still trying hard to live up to the spirit of henry clay. >> we've time for a very quick call from bowling green, kentucky. do you have a quick question for

us? >> reporter: why do you suppose henry clay was not interested in a woman's perspective on slavery? the reason i ask that question, european vikctorian woman traveled to america in 1835 and she visited -- >> i'm going to interrupt you. we understand the history, and we have very little time. >> harriet is sent by britain, so that's enough for clay not to like her. i would certainly say that just his southern principles about women's place. >> yeah. he loved women. had women been able to vote, henry clay would have been president many times, because by all the estimates, women of america liked henry clay. everybody uniformly says that women liked henry clay and would have voted for him. she came to ashland and stayed here. she didn't like the clay children, but she liked henry clay when they got here, even

though she had problems with henry clay. that was part of america of his time, too. the contradictions and the controversy around henry clay. >> we heard jim's views of why henry clay was important for our country. what did you close with yours? >> he was important for the country because he paul larized and made america make a decision on slavery. the 1850 compromise, which did pass african-americans, fled to canada. it increased the public awareness of slavery in america. so that was his major contribution, i think. >> we just skimmed the surface of a 49-year political career for henry clay, our first of 14 contenders men who didn't achieve their quest for the presidency but changed american history. i'm going to say thanks to our guests and the tour director for helping us better understand henry clay a's life. the henry clay memorial

foundation for both preer serving ashland and sharing it with us. deborah corporate who is the executive director and rarary brooks and their colleagues, both volunteers and staff at ashland. a personal thank you to c-span's former board xharm bob myron and his spouse diane who traveled to kentucky to be with us. history buffs that they are, as we kick off the first of our contenders series. thanks for being with us as we learned more tonight about the life the henry clay.

all summer on sundays american history tv presents "the contenders." this 14-week series highlights key political figures who ran for president and lost but who nevertheless changed political history. our program with henry clay airs again tonight on american history tv on c-span3. next sunday we continue or contenders series featuring former speaker of the house james g. blaine from maine who served as secretary of state for three american presidents. you can watch "the contenders" here on american history tv each sunday at 8:30 a.m., 7:30 p.m. and 10:30 p.m. through labor day weekend. sunday on q and a. >> i think the problem is with

walter cronkite people see him as the friendly man, which he was to everybody, but there's another side of him thatmented to be the best. he was obsessed with ratings and beating hutly brinkley report every night. he's probably the fiercest competitor i've written about, and i've written about presidents and generals. cronkite's desire to be the best was very pronounced. >> best-selling author douglas brinkley on his biography of walter cronkite tonight at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span. writing is a transactional process. writing assumes reading. it goes back to that question about, you know, a tree falling in the forest, if there's no one there to hear it. you know, if you've written a really wonderful novel, one of the parts of the process is that you want rea