charge against henry clay when he backed john quincy adams against grover jackson and accepted the secretary of state position. do you think that's the reason why we're referring to henry clay as contender instead of president? >> the 1824 election. >> that was used against henry clay the rest of his life. it was one of his major political mistakes. there were four people in the race. the constitution says the top three vote geters will go to the house of representatives where each say will have one vote. henry clay ended up number four on the list. he probably should have been on the list. he would be able to win the presidency. so he didn't. he didn't the president maker, not the president. before he left ashland. he said he favored john quincy adams for the presidency.

clay always feared the napoleons of the world. he feared they would use a tremendous text to take over and become a dictator like napoleon had in his lifetime. then he accepted the offer of secretary of state from john quincy adams. that stunned the presidency. half of the people said he should do it. half theed advisers said he shouldn't. >> andrew jackson was his nemesis. what was his position on slavery? >> much more hostile than probably one of the first presidents. he marched into florida mainly

to clear out what he considered a threat from florida. he's one of the major campaigns into florida was the issue of free blacks with british support living in florida, along with native americans who were raiding into american territories. so he's very hostile towards any idea of freedom and much more so than our president is. ne next telephone call from boston. >> caller: hello. i went to high school in east port, maine, which is on moose island. very close to canada. and we all knew in eastport that henry clay had insisted after the war of 1812, the island had been taken by the british. he had insisted when he negotiated the end of the treaty

that the island be returned. even when john quincy adams was able to let british have the island. i'm wondering if any of the historians would know why he was so add mant on the return of moose island in east port to america. >> i don't know if you know the specifics. >> not an expert on moose island. i do know that clay when making the treaty of the war of 1812, he took the strongest position of all of the american delegates. he wanted america to have a strong position. clay tended to try to get everything he could. i'm not sure on which island. i hope another historian can tell us. >> we started live about the antagonism towards -- what can you tell us about that as a gin point in his philosophy? >> well, he felt, of course,

that the british were still trying to hold on, punish america with the war of 1812. he definitely wanted a war with england. he thought america could still beat england. i don't know if that was a source of pride or what that was with clay. i wonder if it has something to do with the british asking african-americans to fight against americans the during the war of 1812. if that could have been a part of it. >> also when he was a young man and apparently his father's grave had just been dug, supposedly some british soldiers came into the household, and they were trying to trade the households, and they thrust their swords in the freshly dug grave, thinking the there may be goods hidden there. he had a antipathy towards them early.

when he got to britain after the peace treaty was signed, he stayed there several months and met all the british important people. he still feared them and thought they would try to bully america. he now is known as prince hal because he associated with royalty so much. >> let's talk about the 1832 election. we were talking about andrew jackson. when he faced off against him for the presidency. >> i 1832, probably -- election to clay couldn't win. jackson was popular still. the things that make historians upset with andrew jackson like his indian policy, policy towards african-americans, those were positives for andrew jackson in his era. in the south particularly and in 1832, the -- clay also faced the

fact there was a third party out there that would end up taking -- mostly from the wig party, party that became the wigs. the anti-masonic party. the whole issue of masonry which we still hear today, movies and things like that about it. the -- anti-mass onlyic party about masonists should be done away with. >> clay was mason? >> clay was mason and andrew jackson was a mason. clay was not a practically mason at the time. it took votes away from him. he probably would have had a hard time winning anyway. jackson was popular. the bank issue came up for clay's -- recharter the national bank of america. jackson vetoed it. clay thought it would be a very popular issue. people would -- go to him and say this is the right thing 20 do. he didn't realize that jackson vetoed message was great political message because it made andrew jackson speak to the people and against the corporate monopoly, this bank. and clay couldn't win on that issue. and so clay lost on several

levels. >> how close was the election? >> clay got 48 electoral votes and jackson got 219. let's return to the tour operations director at ashland now on the second floor. avery, what do you have for us? >> we are in the henry clay bedroom right now. we have henry clay's dueling he talks about how comfortable this bed was and he didn't have bedbugs. we have henry clay's dueling pistols purchased in 1799. and later we believe these went to war with his son in mexico. henry was in two duels. one with humphrey marshall and one with john randolph. the duel with john randolph takes us back to henry clay and speaker of the house.

when henry was chosen as speaker of the house he was chosen partly because they thought here is a man who can meet john randolph on the floor or on the field. and it happened that they met on the field. john randolph compared henry clay to a character in the novel "tom jones." called him the card cheat on the senate floor. henry was than there to defend himself. and felt no man should have to endure such a dishonor. he challenged john randolph to a duel. randolph was great shot with pistols and clay was not he decided to shoot at the ground. fortunately nobody was seriously injured in either henry clay's duels. >> how long did dueling -- was it part of american political life? >> it was started in the 1860s. and henry clay knew he wasn't a great shot. why did he get involved in it?

>> the whole issue -- clay had a real sense of honor. if your honor was attacked you had to defend it. sometimes he would defend it through newspaper stories, letters. he wrote too many of those. he thought only way to defend it was to challenge someone. if they took the challenge he would twice went to the dueling grounds and used against him as well. randolph particularly -- >> this is senator john randolph of roanoke. >> yes. randolph of roanoke. a man who was very eccentric. and one of the great quotes about henry clay, may have been applied to people, too, but he said that henry clay is like a rotten mackerel in the moonlight. he both shines and stinks. that's a great vision there. randolph disliked a lot of the things he did but admired clay because clay had the ability to do things. and even in the last part of his life, randolph is a dying man who wanted to come to the floor

of the senate. he said he could listen to the magnificent voice one more time. >> our next telephone call is from david in san francisco. david, welcome. >> caller: thank you. one quick comment. that is anybody who thinks that today's politics is overly divided should really take a look at the political verbiage. but then the question is this. particularly to the doctor is that do you find it a bit ironic the republican party which was formed out of the wig party has evolved from a party founded by henry clay on the basis of public works and federal and vocal projects into one that opposes all of that? particularly with mitch mcconnell's comments. thank you.

>> hi, david. basically the -- wig party evolved into the republican party, abraham lincoln himself had been a wig and became a republican. the democratic party has a lot of the central factions of the wig party. but in modern days parties have aspects of both of those. democratic party has a lot of the central -- factions of the wig party. some of the republican business oriented sections come from the wig philosophy. in a sense, henry clay lives on in both parties. maybe doesn't live on enough in both parties but still lives on in both parties. >> comments from that question? >> certainly the -- you mentioned 1830s. you have the rise of the anti-slavery, a mention anti-slavery society. and he does develop some democratic ideals. he definitely supports -- against the idea of the gag rule in congress which many of the southerners and northerners want. and for the safety of freedom,

he definitely overrules that idea. he wants these petitions, even though he doesn't support it, he wants it heard. >> before we get too far into the 1830s we really haven't spent time on one of the first lee great compromises he's known for -- missouri compromise. >> missouri wanted to come into the union. >> what time frame are we talking about? >> 1820. missouri wants to come to the union. the question is slave state or not. maine is about to enter at the same time. it ends up with the two come in. one is slave and one is free. that's not necessarily going to be decided at the beginning. the whole question of slavery is like when the -- slavery question arises it has been there smoldering like a fire and now the missouri compromise feeds that fire and brings it to

forefront of the debates and debates. where will slavery -- will it continue? will it be everywhere in the nation? somewhere in the nation? but limited? there's attempts to limit it completely. clay is not really the man who makes the first compromise. a lot of the ideas were here but came from other people. he works to get through it. it is not his compromise. once it is through everything seems like it is done. missouri -- passes a law that says free blacks in missouri. united states constitution as american citizens can go anywhere. so this is the compromise clay -- everything else is getting ready to fall apart. clay works out a very convoluted answer to that that satisfies everybody and satisfies nobody. at the same time it ends the crisis. he hopes the amendment slavery will not be an issue because to clay slavery is the real thorn in his side. he can never come up with a solution on that. and if it is -- if it is -- if it is a wound it is a self-inflicted wound because

clay was a slave holder. >> that makes it difficult to please. he starts out people believing he is an emancipationist and is on the north side. it is a no-win situation for him. >> we are halfway through our 90-minute discussion on the life and times of the contender, henry clay who ran for the white house throughout most of his political career. five times in total. three times as his party's nominee. unsuccessful all the while. but the great effect on the direction and future of his country. we are going to take a very short break and be back at ashland, his home, in lexington, kentucky to talk more. welcome back to ashland. a place that has been preserved and is open for tours so people who -- spend their lives who curate the place will come down and visit. alicestyne, tell us about your college yes. i'm on professor at the

university of louisville. >> you were colleagues in georgetown? >> we were colleagues at georgetown college and that's where i teach american history now. >> where is georgetown? >> 12 miles northwest. >> when you were in college did you debate a lot? >> we did. we did. but it is hard to debate someone like jim. he definitely is a scholar on kentucky history. i try keep up 25 years of kentucky statehood historian, what does the job entail? >> basically self-defined job. to me it involves writing history of the state. i try to do that. involve working with people writing about the history and helping them, aiding them, helping, advice, suggestions.

trying to stay out of the their way sometimes. also entails going around and giving talks to the state and people that live here. >> the reckor of tour operations is here with us. avery, would you tell us about how many people come to this place, how every year, how it is financed? and how it is operated. >> well, it varies by season how many people you will find visiting ashland. certainly the tourists come when the leaves change and keenland is in null swing, christmas and throughout the summer. we have somewhere around 15,000 a year come to see us. we are financed through a variety of methods and means. and we are very fortunate to have all of our visitors and all of friends of ashland's who donate to keep us open and for us to tell the public about henry clay and come prom nice what year did the place open for tours? >> we opened in 1950 for tours. this was only two years after nanette bullock died.

she was henry clay's great granddaughter. she was the one that preserved ashland by starting the henry clay memorial foundation. so just two years after she passed away. we were only open downstairs and then after he moved out we opened throughout the house. >> all three of our guests available for your questions. let's take another one. this is from shelby watching us in sacramento, california. >> caller: yes. hello. i'm great grandson of a mr. lauer who had help with the anti-slavery movement and before i get to my name question, i would like to say that he had a hardware store and when slaves would come into town and they needed to be housed his secret and magical phrase to his neighbors were we have two penny nails in. and my grandmother, myrtle lauer

james, knew there was magical significance to that. so when she was given a horse as a young lady, she named the horse two penny nails. and so perhaps we can remember all of those slaves that were able to find freedom and what a great country this is and what a terrific thing to have c-span. i'm grateful to participate in this series. >> we appreciate it. we do need your question. we have a lot of callers in line. >> caller: yes, yes. i saw masonry emblems on the buildings in the beautiful city of louisville, kentucky. my question was -- could you tell us, please, what association henry clay may have had with that city? thank you. >> okay. with the city of louisville. >> clay's son, henry clay jr, lived in louisville and

lexington. clay jr. used some of his life's money again to basically buy a lot of property in louisville on the rise. he became quite wealthy as a young man. that son -- ended up being killed in the mexican war. clay would visit there and help his son and it was -- a rival of lexington, though. louisville clipped the population in 1830 for the first time. the river now -- riverboats there made louisville on the artery of communication and transportation. lexington was in the back for so the connection with louisville was a mixed one. it generally supported the wig side. >> next phone call is from willie. willy in columbus, ohio. you are on. >> caller: thank you. i would like to note real quickly any connection, any association, i have always been under the impression former heavyweight champion cassius clay always said that was his slave name. any association at all?

thank you. >> certainly the name cassius marcellus clay stands out for americans because he was considered an abolitionist and anti-slavery advocate in lexington. ran an anti-slavery newspaper. however, it is my understanding and maybe jim snow knows better than i, but i don't think there was a real family connection with cassius marcellus clay. >> george edgar did a story in the paper once. i did some research on that. the man known as muhammad ali was originally cassius marcellus clay, was named for the abolitionist leader, but his family that he came from was from western kentucky. they just took that name because a distant cousin of henry clay,

an abolitionist, an anti-slavery man certainly. they thought that was a good name to take when they had freedom. >> the election of 1840, henry clay tries once again for his wig party nomination. he was defeated in that quest by whom? >> harrison turned around and offered clay vice presidential spot? >> i'm not sure he offered him the vice president. offered hip a cab innocent position. >> i'm thinking here is this chance to get that close because of the way fate played with the harrison president. >> why did he offer him his choice of cabinetry? >> they had been rivals. here is another general, a man who said he hadn't voted for 30 years. when he was seeking the presidency. he had positions in indiana territory and other places, some history of accomplishments. not a great deal. clay is expecting to get the presidency at a time when the wigs think they are going to win. because america is in a depression. wig policies look like they are the things you need to get you out of the depression. whoever they put out there will have a very good shot at beating the incumbent, mark van buren.

clay wants it. this is one of those examples where henry clay is not a good politician. he is good in congress. he's not a good manager. he is not a good campaign -- doesn't have a campaign manager. trusts his own instincts too much rather than just the advice of other people. he basically is outmaneuvered. they get a rule changed in the convention itself so clay -- had the majority of the votes, now said who will vote by number, vote by state delegation. the whole state goes to that person. that negated his advantage and loses out to harrison. harrison realized clay was very important in the wig party, obviously. he wants to make peace. didn't want clay on the opposite side. that's why he offered clay these positions. clay basically says he rather stay where he is and thinks he has more important things to do there. he doesn't really want to be associated with harrison

presidency really. >> our next caller is bill here in lexington, kentucky.

hi, bill. >> caller: hi. calling from washington. i'm actual lay teacher at henry clay high school which is right up the street where you are all sitting right now. i would like to ask whether the panelists think henry clay's reputation as a compromiser hurt his chances of being president. and whether or not his -- three-time loser actually made it possibln. his stand on anti-slavery of -- upsets new england and the northerners. he's trying to straddle the fence and i think it does hurt him more than help him. >> avery, the question on his years as a compromiser ultimately hurt him in his quest important the presidency. what do you tell people? >> i'm not sure but bag compromis a position of power. people usually want you to take a strong stance. >> and your thoughts? >> emerson said that a foolish consistency about -- small minds. clay was not consistent all of his life. one time opposed when he was a rung man and favored one later on. and he changed the little one,

different positions over time. he gave up in 1833 compromise. his enemies used that against him and said he wasn't consistent but would compromise as long as there were votes. i don't think that was the case. i think -- but he's willing to take a change and make a change and say that he had been wrong. that's hard for a politician to do. sometimes costs a him. >> we had an earlier caller that wanted to -- referenced this and talked about henry clay's views of the british. we will see that in just a minute. what was the significance of the treaty? >> ends the war of 1812 which americans are not winning at the time the delegates over there and the it gets worse because they thought the british would be fighting and napoleon is out of the way by the time the treaty's deliberations start. the americans have not -- not negotiated a place of strength. but in a sense, they get about the best treaty they can. they do as well as they can. s it is one of our best delegations ever. john quincy adams, henry clay, three other people of importance there. and it draws out and takes a long time to come about that they -- given the fact they didn't have a lot to work with, come in with a strong treaty for america.

it was held that way, too. interest didn't hurt and andrew jackson won the battle of new orleans after the treaty had been signed. there's almost like would things came at the same time. looked like we won the war. even though the treaty had been signed before the battle. >> avery, you have the guest jacket. can you tell us about it and its significance. >> yes. we have the jacket here. this is the diplomatic issue jacket henry clay would have been given to go against and negotiate peace. this jacket is very significant it is one of the few pieces in the collection we have that belong to henry clay. this jacket also served a as an artifact during the time the kentucky a&m was here. they used this jacket as an artifact then as well. >> we are going back to telephone calls. michael? >> caller: good evening. my family and i grew up in milwaukee, wisconsin. and in the '50s we all went to henry clay elementary school for

seven years. he's always been a source of fascination for me. i used to -- lexington on business and i'm sorry i didn't realize you guys were there. i have a very simple question. this very bestselling but -- bestselling biography on him. called henry clay, essential american by david hidler. it is very popular. i'm wondering if you read it. would it be a good choice for me to learn about henry clay? do you have something else to suggest? thank you very much. >> well, we just happen to have tyler's book here. it is one of the several books available in the bookstore. they have a number of biographies. i'm going to ask both of you, what would be the book you would pick out about henry clay? >> that's the most recent biography and has a lot of strengths on the side of henry clay. jean hadler is the coauthor of that as well. and it's the newest biography. if you want political emphasis, probably robert emery's book about 20 years old on henry

clay, about the same size. but if you want to start out on something smaller, there's -- a book with a chapter on henry clay and has a good introduction on henry clay. you want to compare clay and webster, peterson did a book in the '70s. it is a good balanced book on all three men. nice comparison to start with. lindsey apple did a book to family legacy of henry clay. apple's book is excellent and it also takes clay's family beyond just his lifetime. >> what would you pick up? >> the things i read that -- because it does bring in daniel webster and some of the other important figures of the time, for african-americans it puts it in perspective as far as what's going on in the country and what the great debates are about. so definitely -- i have not read the newer version. i'm waiting for jim's book that's coming out. that will be the next one that i will pick up to read.

>> when and what is the next book? >> henry clay and the american presidency. >> how about that? perfect timing. >> great rejected is a quote that was said about clay at the end of his life. he was the great rejective by the people. he stood out because of that. i'm about to finish writing it this month, early next month. then i have to go to the publication process. about a year away, i hope. >> the current speaker of the house has many of his powers, i think that he can look back to. speakership of henry clay. and he spoke about henry clay recently. let's listen to speaker john boehner. thought we could get finished before the contender series was over this year. >> henry clay was the first -- what i call strong speaker of the house. the real l