themed question. i wanted to ask the panel about 1824 and the corrupt bargain charge against henry clay when he backed john quincy adams against jackson and accepted the secretary of state position. do you think that's the reason why we're referring to henry clay as contender instead of president? >> the 1824 election. >> that was used against henry clay the rest of his life. it was one of his major political mistakes. there were four people in that race. the constitution says the top three vote getters, if there's not a majority, will go to the house representatives where each state will have one vote. henry clay ended up number four on that list. he probably should have been on the list. if he'd gotten in as speaker of the house, he'd be able to use his vast popularity. but he didn't. he became the president maker, not the president. before he even left kentucky, before he left ashland, he had

said he favored john quincy adams for the presidency. adams had the same viewpoints. at that time, jackson he called a mere general. clay always fear eed the napoles of the world. so clay really went to washington knowing he was going to support adams. his mistake was not supporting ada adams. in fact, that may have been his best compromise. adams didn't carry but nine states. 13 before needed. clay did that. adams was elected. then clay made his big mistake. he accepted the offer of secretary of the state from john quincy adams. that was the steppingstone of the presidency. half of the people said he should do it. half said he shouldn't. but he couldn't turn it down. that was then used against him as a corrupt bargain. >> andrew jackson was his great nemesis. what was jackson's position on

slavery? >> much more hostile than probably one of the first presidents. he marched into florida mainly to clear out what he considered a threat from florida. one of his major campaigns into florida was the issue of free blacks with british support living in florida along with native americans who were raiding into american territories, taking slaves out of the united states. he's very hostile toward any idea of freedom and much more so than our presidents. >> next telephone call is from scott, who's watching us in boston. hello, scott. >> caller: hi, how are you? >> great, thanks. you have a henry clay question for us? >> caller: i do. i went to high school in east port, maine, which is on moose island. a cool, foggy, dreary island. very close to canada. we all knew in east port that henry clay had insisted after

the war of 1812 -- the island had been taken by the british. he had insists when he negotiated the end of the treaty that the island be returned to the united states. even when john quincy adams, who was another negotiator, was willing to sort of let canada have the island, let british have the island. i'm wondering if anyone would know why he was so adamant on the return of moose island in east port to america. >> i don't know if you know the specifics of -- >> i'm not an expert on moose island and why clay -- i do know that clay, in making the treaty in the war of 1812, took the strongest position of all the american delegates. he wanted america to have a strong position. clay tended to try to get everything he could. i'm not sure on moose island, though. i hope there's another historian out there that could tell us. >> we talked before we got started live about clay's antagonism toward the british. what can you tell us about that

as a general point in his philosophy? >> well, he felt, of course, that the british were still trying to hold on, punish america with the war of 1812. he definitely wanted a war with england. he felt america, despite the fact we had a small army, small navy, could still beat england. so i don't know if that was a source of pride or ego or what that was with clay. but i often wondered if it had something to do with the british asking african-americans to fight against americans during the war of 1812. if that could have been a part of it. >> there's also -- when he was a young man, and apparently his father's grave had just been dug, supposedly some british soldiers came into the household. they raided the household. they thrust their swords into the dug grave, thinking there would be treasure in there.

he said that kentucky militia alone can capture canada. he was wrong, as he was on other things. when he got to britain after the peace treaty had been signed, he stayed over there several months and met all the british important people. he came back with a much little different view of the british. he still feared them and thought they would try to bully america, but he now became known as prince how because he was associated with royalty so much. >> let's talk for a minute, please, about the 1832 election. we're talking about andrew jackson, when he faced off against him for the presidency. >> in 1832, it was probably one of those elections clay couldn't win. jackson was popular still. the things that make historians upset with andrew jackson, like his indian policy, those were positives for andrew jackson in his era, in the south particularly. in 1832, clay also faced the

fact there was a third party out there that would end up taking a sizable percentage of the vote, probably mostly from the wig party, or the paertd that would become the wigs. that was a party known as the antimasonic party. the whole issue of masonry, which we still hear today with movies and things like that. the anti-masonic party thought the masons should be done away with. >> and clay was a mason? >> clay was a mason, and andrew jackson was a mason. this third party took votes away from him. he probably would have had a hard time winning anyway. jackson was popular. then the bank issue came up where clay's favorite recharter of the national bank of america, jackson vetoed it. clay thought it was going to be a very popular issue, that people would go to him and say, this is the right thing to do. but he didn't realize that jackson's veto message was a great political message because it made andrew jackson speak for the people and against this corporate monopoly, this bank.

clay couldn't win on that issue. so clay lost on several levels. >> how close was the election? >> clay got 49 electoral votes. >> c-span has a website set up for this. we have details about their losing president issue elections and the outcomes. it's c-span.org/thecontenders. let's return to the tour operations director at ashland now on the second floor. avery, what do you have for us? >> we are in the henry clay bedroom right now. upstairs, we have henry clay's duelling pistols. these were purchased in 1799 and later altered a bit.

we leave these went to war with his son in mexico. henry was in two duels. one with humphrey marshall and one with john randolph. the duel with john randolph takes us back to henry clay and speaker of the house. when henry was chosen as speaker of the house he was chosen partly because they thought here is a man who can meet john randolph on the floor or on the field. and it happened that they met on the field. john randolph compared henry clay to a character in the novel "tom jones." called him the card cheat on the senate floor. henry wasn't there to defend himself and felt no man should have to endure such a dishonor. he challenged john randolph to a duel. randolph was a great shot with pistols and clay was not. but randolph decided to shoot at the ground. fortunately, nobody was seriously injured in either of henry clay's duels. >> how long did duelling -- was it part of political american

life? >> 1860s. >> henry clay knew he was not a great shot. why did he get involved? >> the whole issue -- clay had a real sense of honor. if your honor was attacked you had to defend it. sometimes he would defend it through newspaper stories, letters. he wrote too many of those. he thought only way to defend it was to challenge someone. if they answered the challenges, then he twice went to the duels grounds. that would be used against him as well. randolph particularly -- >> this is senator john randolph of roanoke. >> yes. randolph of roanoke. a man who was very eccentric. and one of the great quotes about henry clay, may have been applied to people too. but he said that henry clay is like a rotten mackerel in the moonlig moonlight. he both shines and stinks.

that's a great vision there. randolph disliked a lot of the things he did but admired clay because clay had the ability to do things. and even in the last part of his life, randolph is a dying man who wanted to come to the floor of the senate. he said he could listen to the magnificent voice one more time. >> our next telephone call is from david in san francisco. welcome. >> caller: thank you. one quick comment. that is anybody who thinks that today's politics is overly divided should really take a look at the political verbiage. but then the question is this. particularly to the doctor is that do you find it a bit ironic the republican party which was formed out of the wig party has evolved from a party founded by henry clay on the basis of public works and federal and local projects into one that opposes all that, particularly with mitch mcconnell's comments.

thank you. >> hi, david. basically, the wig party involved into the republican party. abraham lincoln himself had been a wig and became a republican. had many of the aspects of the wig party. but in modern days parties have aspects of both of those. democratic party has a lot of the central factions of the wig party. some of the republican business oriented sections come from the wig philosophy. in a sense, henry clay lives on in both parties. maybe doesn't live on enough in both parties but still lives on in both parties. >> comments from that question? >> certainly the -- you mentioned 1830s. you have the rise of the anti-slavery, new england anti-slavery society, and he does develop some democratic ideals. he definitely supports -- against the idea of the gag rule in congress which many of the

southerners and northerners want. and for the safety of freedom, he definitely overrules that idea. he wants these petitions, even though he doesn't support it, he wants it heard. >> before we get too far into the 1830s we really haven't spent time on one of the first of the three great come ppromis. he's known for the missouri compromise. >> missouri wanted to come into the union, 1820. the question is slave state or not. maine is about to enter at the same time. it ends up with the two come in. one is slave and one is free. that's not necessarily going to be decided at the beginning. the whole question of slavery is like when the slavery question arises, it has been there smoldering like a fire and now the missouri compromise feeds that fire and brings it to the forefront of the debates.

where will slavery -- will it continue? will it be everywhere in the nation? somewhere in the nation? limited? there's attempts to limit it completely. clay is not the first to make the compromise. a lot of the ideas were here. came from other people. works to get through p. it is not his compromise. once it is through everything seems like it is done. missouri passes a law that says free blacks in missouri. united states constitution as american citizens can go anywhere. clay works out a very convoluted answer to that that satisfies everybody and satisfies nobody. at the same time it ends the crisis. he hopes slavery will not be an issue. to clay, slavery is the real thorn in his side. he can never come up with a solution on that. and if it's a wound, it's a self-inflicted wound because

clay was a slave holder. >> that makes it difficult to please. he starts out believing he is an emancipationist and is on the north side. it is a no-win situation for him. >> we are halfway through our 90-minute discussion on the life and times of the contender, henry clay who ran for the white house throughout most of his political career. five times in total. three times as his party's nominee. unsuccessful all the while. but the great effect on the direction and future of his country. we are going to take a very short break and be back at ashland, his home, in lexington, kentucky, to talk more. welcome back to ashland. the home of henry clay in lexington, kentucky, a place that has been preserved and is open for tours. the people who spend their professional lives helping to

cu curate this place hope you come down and visit. alicestyne, tell us about your college. >> yes, i'm a professor at the university of louisville. >> you were colleagues in georgetown? >> we were colleagues at georgetown college and that's where i teach american history now. >> where is georgetown? >> 12 miles north of lexington. they're very close. >> when you were colleagues, did you debate a lot? >> we did. we did. but it is hard to debate someone like jim. he definitely is a scholar on kentucky history. >> i just try to keep up. >> and 25 years as kentucky historian. what does the job entail? >> basically self-defined job. to me it involves writing history of the state. i try to do that. involves working with people who are writing about kentucky's history and helping them, aiding

them, offering advice, suggestions, trying to stay out of their way sometimes. also entails going around and giving talks and appearing in things like this in public to tell the story of the state and the people who lived here. >> and avery malone is with us, the director of tour operations here. how many people come to this place every year, how it's financed, and how it's operated? >> well, it varies by season how many people you will find visiting ashland. certainly the tourists come when the leaves change and keenland is in null swing, christmas and throughout the summer. we have somewhere around 15,000 a year come to see us. we are financed through a variety of methods and means. and we are very fortunate to have all of our visitors and all of friends of ashland's who donate to keep us open and for us to tell the public about henry clay and compromise.

>> what year did the place open for tours originally? >> we opened in 1950 for tours. this was only two years after nanette bullock died. she was henry clay's great granddaughter. she was the one that preserved ashland by starting the henry clay memorial foundation. so just two years after she passed away. her son lived here until 1959. we were only open downstairs. after he moved out, we opened throughout the house. >> all three of our guests available for your questions. let's take another one. this is from shelby watching us in sacramento, california. >> caller: yes. hello. i'm also a great grandson of a mr. lauer, who had helped with the anti-slavery movement. before i get to my main question, i would like to say that he had a hardware store, and when slaves would come into town and they needed to be housed, his secret and magical phrase to his neighbors were, we

have some two-penny nails in. my grandmother, myrtle lauer james, knew there was some kind of magical significance to that. so when she had a horse -- was given a horse as a young lady, she named the horse two-penny nails. perhaps we can remember all those slaves that were able to find freedom and what a great country this is and what a terrific thing to have, c-span. i'm grateful to participate in this series. >> we appreciate it. we do need your question because we have a lot of callers in line. >> caller: yes, yes. i saw masonry emblems on a lot of the buildings in the beautiful city of kentucky. can you tell us what associations henry clay may have had with that city. >> okay. the city of louisville. >> henry clay jr. lived in louisville and in lexington and

clay jr. used some of his wife's money, again, to basically buy a lot of property when louisville was on the rise. he became quite wealthy as a young man. that son ended up being killed in the mexican war, killed by mexican lances. clay would visit there and help his son. it was a rival of lexington, though, because louisville eclipsed lexington in population for the first time in 1830. the river boat is there. lexington was kind of in a back water now because it's not on the water system. so the connection with louisville was a mixed one. it generally supported the wigs. >> next phone call is from willie. willie is in columbus, ohio. you are on. >> caller: thank you. i would like to note real quickly any connection, any association, i have always been

under the impression former heavy weight champion cassius clay always said that was his slave name. any association at all? thank you. >> certainly the name cassius marcellus clay stands out for americans because he was considered an abolitionist and anti-slavery advocate in lexington. ran an anti-slavery newspaper. however, it is my understanding and maybe jim knows better than i, but i don't think there was a real family connection with cassius marcellus clay. >> i did some research on that once. the man known as muhammad ali was originally cassius marcellus clay. he was named for the abolitionist leader. but his family that he came from was from western kentucky. they just took that name because the distant cousin of henry clay was an abolitionist,

anti-slavery man, certainly. they thought that was a good name to take when they had freedom. >> the election of 1840, henry clay tries once again for his wigs party nomination. he was defeated in that quest by whom? >> harrison. >> he turned around and offered clay? >> i'm not sure he offered him the vice president. >> why did he offer him his choice of cabinet position? >> they'd been rivals. here's another general, a man who said he hadn't voted for 30 years when he was seeking the presidency. he had some positions in indiana territory and other places. had some history of accomplishments, but not a great deal. clay is expecting to get the -- it's a time when the wigs think they're going to win because america's in a depression. wig policies look like they're the things you need to get you

out of the depression. whoever they put out there is going to have a very good shot at baeating the incumbent. this is an example where henry clay is not a good politician. he's good in congress, but he's not a good manager. he trusts his own instincts too much. they now said instead of voting by number, we're going to vote by delegation. that negated clay's advantage. he loses out to harrison. harrison realized that clay was very important in the wig party. he wants to make peace. he doesn't want clay on the opposite side. that's why he offers clay these positions. clay basically says he would rather stay where he is. he thinks he has more important

things to do there. >> our next caller is bill here in lexington, kentucky. hi, bill. >> caller: hi. calling from lexington. i'm actually a teacher at henry clay high school, which is right up the street from where y'all are sitting right i'd like to ask whether the panelists think that henry clay's reputation as a compromiser hurt his chances of being president and whether or not his losses as president, a three-time loser, actually made is possible for him to have greater impact and a more positive one on the country throughout his long legislative career. thank you. >> i'm going to ask all three of our guests to answer that question briefly. >> i think being a compromiser, question. by 1840, it definitely does hurt him. he is unwilling to change his position on texas, so that upsets the southerners.

his stand on anti-slavery upsets new england and the northerners. he's trying to straddle the fence. i think it does hurt him more than help him. >> avery malone, the question, did his years as a compromiser ultimately hurt him in his quest for the presidency? what do you tell people here? >> i'm unsure, but i do know that being a compromiser is not universally popular during the present time when someone's seeking a position of power. people usually want you to take a strong stance. >> and your thoughts? >> emerson said that a finished consistency is a hobgoblin of small minds. clay was not consistent all of his life. he at one time opposed it back in the united states. he favored one later on. he changed a little on different positions over time. he gave up on the tariff in the 1833 compromise. his enemies used that against him saying he wasn't consistent.

he was willing to make a change and say that he had been wrong. that's hard for a poll sigs to do. it sometimes costs you. it cost him. >> we had an earlier caller that wanted to reference the treaty of gent. we will see that in just a minute. what was the significance of the treaty? >> ends the war of 1812 which americans are not winning at the time the delegates over there and the it gets worse because they thought the british would be fighting napoleon. napoleon is out of the way by the time this treaty's deliberations start. the americans have not negotiated a place of strength. but in a sense, they get about the best treaty they can. it draws out. it takes a long time to come about. given the fact they didn't have a lot to work w they came at it with a very strong treaty for

america. it was hailed that way too. it didn't hurt that andrew jackson then won the battle of new orleans after the treaty had been signed, but the news had not reached america. it was almost like the two things came at the same time. so it looked like we won the war even though the treaty had been signed before the battle had been fought. >> avery, can you tell us about the jacket? >> yes, we have the gent jacket here. this would have been given to henry clay to go to gent and go to peace. it's one of the few pieces in the collection that we have that belonged to henry clay. this jacket also served as an artifact during the time the kai a&m was here. they used this jacket as an artifact then as well. >> we're going to go back to telephone calls. next is from denver, michael. >> caller: good evening. my family and i grew up in milwaukee, wisconsin. in the '50s, we all went to

henry clay elementary school for seven years, so he's always been a source of fascination for me. i used to come to louisville and lexington on business. i'm sorry i didn't realize you guys were there. i have a very simple question. this very best-selling biography on him called "henry clay, the special american" is very popular. i'm wondering if you've read it, and would it be a good choice for me to learn about henry clay, or do you have something else to suggest? thank you very much. >> well, we just happened to have the book here. it's one of the several books available in the bookstore. they have a number of biographies. i'm going to ask both of you for just starting out, what would be the book you'd pick up about henry clay? >> that's the most recent biography. it has a lot of strengths on the human side of henry clay. it's the newest biography. if you want political emphasis,

a 20-year-old book is about same size. if you want to start out on something smaller, there's benny walker howe that did a book. that's a good introduction on henry clay. he has a very good view. if you want to compare clay and calhoun and webster, meryl peterson did a book in the '70s. it's a very good, balanced view on all three men and gives you a in this case comparison. of course, lindsay apple has just done a book on the family legacy of henry clay. apple's book is excellent. it takes clay's family beyond his lifetime, almost into the present. >> what would you pick up, either for him or the period? >> for him, definitely the triumphant. it does bring in daniel webster and some of the other important

figures of the time. for african-americans, it puts it in perspective as far as what's going on in the country and what the debates are about. i've not read the newer version. i'm waiting for jim's book that's coming out. that'll be the next one that i'll pick up to read. >> when and what is the next book? >> working title is "the great rejected, henry clay and the american presidency." >> how about that? perfect timing. >> it was a quote about clay that was said at the ends of his life. he was the great rejected by the people but stood out above them because of that. i'm about to finish writing it this month, early next month. then i've got to go through the publication process. about a year away, i hope. >>well, the current speaker of the house has many of his powers, i think, that he can look back to, the speakership of henry clay. he spoke about henry clay recently. let's listen to speaker john