we know of mr. madison and his role as a politician, fourth president of the united states. designing the virginia plan and the constitution. his role, you know, as an entertainer with dolly in the house. but a very important role he had was as a slave owner and how does this blend all these together, you know, the entertaining he was doing, how he had house slaves interacting with other slaves and with the guests. so we're trying to put all this back together and the documents don't tell us everything we need. so we're trying to fill in the gaps with the archaeology. >> you can view more american history tv programs at our website. you can also follow us on facebook. facebook.com/c-spanhistory. next, a discussion on the critical relationship between two superpower leaders. president ronald reagan and

soviet leader mikhail gorbachev and their role in bringing an end to the cold war. among the panelists are former u.s. ambassador jack mattlock and richard reeves, a columnist and author of "president reagan, the triumph of imagination." this is an hour and 20 minutes. >> good evening, everyone, and welcome. i know that -- happy st. patrick's day, by the way. i noticed a lot of you are wearing green, so am i. great new york tradition. so once again, welcome. i'm louise mira, president and ceo of the new york historical society and i want to say how pleased we are to continue our program series in this lovely venue while our own auditorium undergoes major renovations.

i want to remind you that the new york society for ethical culture will be our public program venue through november 2011 when our entire renovation project will be finished. tonight's program, reagan, gorbachev, did they end the cold war forever is the event in an exciting new series of programs. i'm really so very thrilled to thank mr. and mrs. newman for their great support, which has allowed us to bring this fantastic news series to you. thank you, helen and ruth. [ applause ] >> when mr. newman proposed the idea for these talks, he envisioned a series that not only would examine where we are today and where we think we'll be tomorrow, but also that very uncertain place beyond.

the series title is, of course, a takeoff on the theme of the 1939 new york world's fair. and those of you who know harrold newman won't be surprised at his idea to push us to take a deeper look at what we think we can know about the future and why, and above all, to reconsider the unqualified belief that motivated the world's fair theme in science and technology as a means to economic prosperity and personal freedom. tonight's program looks at the u.s.-russian relations during the time of ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev. and asks where those relations are heading in light of all that's happened since. the next program in the harrold and ruth newman world beyond tomorrow series will feature gorbachev himself in conversation with charlie rose. stay tuned. mark october 20 on your

calendars. before i introduce tonight's speakers, i want to recognize some additional people in the audience. trustees who have supported our efforts. judy burkowicz, and our amazing pam shafler. i would like to acknowledge and thank members of our chairman's council, our highest donor group, who include ruth and harrold newman, frank and caroline lambs, steven stein, judith sternpeck. thank you very much for all the wonderful things you do for us. [ applause ] and on the topic of generous support, i just want to encourage all of you here tonight who are not yet members of the new york historical

society to join. you'll receive invitations to exhibition openings and half priced tickets to most of our public programs, like the great one tonight. but best of all for you history buffs, you'll receive the great satisfaction and pleasure of knowing that you've supported new york's destination for history. if you join or upgrade this evening at the patron level, we'll reserve a seat for you at our gorbachev evening. our membership manager joe festa is here with us this evening. tonight's program will include a question and answer session. two of our staff members will be on the floor with wireless week phones to select the questions and our speaker's book also be available for purchase on stage. richard reeves is senior lecturer at the school for communication at the university of southern california and a

syndicated columnist, whose column has appeared in more than 100 newspapers since 1979. he's been a correspondent for the new york evening news and was the chief political correspondent of "the new york times." he's served as national editor and columnist for esquire and "new york" magazine. he's written several books also. steven cohen is professor of russian studies in history at new york university and also professor of politics at princeton, where for many years, he was director of his russian studies program. professor cohen has written several books earning a national book award nomination. his books include "failed crusade, america and the tragedy of post communist russia." "soviet fates and lost alternatives, from stalinism to

the new cold war." and most recently "survivors of the gulag after stalin." he is a frequent commentator on television and radio. i would like to thank professor cohen for advice and council as we developed this program for this evening. so thank you. jack f. mattlock jr. served 35 years in the american foreign service and was u.s. ambassador to the soviet union from march 1987 to august 1991. he's also served as special assistant to the president and senior director of soviet affairs on the national security council. in his various capacities, he participated in all of the u.s./soviet summit meetings from '72 to 1991, except for the carter/brezhnev meeting in vienna in 1979. his books include "reagan and gorbachev, how the cold war ended" and he's a professor at

columbia. i would like to welcome back leslie staal, our moderator. prior to joining "60 minutes," she served as cbs news white house correspondent and was a moderator on "face the nation" and co-anchor of "america tonight." i would also like to recognize our blogger this evening, another inspired idea from harrold newman, david andleman and thank him for joining us. before we begin, please make sure that anything electronic

that might make a noise is switched off. and please joining me in welcoming our guests. thank you. [ applause ] >> hello, everyone. if you want to know about the cold war, this is the panel to tell us. and i myself can't wait to hear them disagree with each other. it's going to be the goal. so i'm just going to plunge right in and i'm going to start with richard reeves at the end and ask him whether he thinks that ronald reagan was the reason the cold war ended. if not ronald reagan, do you think it was gorbachev. and if neither one of them, do you think that the soviet union just imploded from its own

dilapidated weight? >> that touches all the bases. i think the cold war was won by millions of american people going back to harry truman and beyond. i think that reagan -- i think jack will have to answer whether gorbachev was more important. my own feeling is that in fact he was. but that ronald reagan had an extraordinary view developed over 30 years of reading. he had never been to the soviet union and an extraordinary view that they could not stand up to the united states. the first time -- i remember not the first time but a time i was in the soviet union and i had a

room at a hotel off red square. and i walked in with my wife and i had known from past experience that you have to bring a stopper, because there were never stoppers in the sinks in the soviet union. and it had been a long time getting there. i put the stopper in, put some water in and shaved and took out the stopper and the water came down on my feet. at that moment, i thought these people aren't going to beat us at anything. and i think ronald reagan had come to that conclusion before i had. >> before you had? >> yes. he had -- >> an instinct. >> you used the word "implode." i think ronald reagan believed for 30 years that communism was unsusta unsustainable, their form of communism, and that it would eventually implode and in some ways, he was the right guy at the right time. >> ambassador mattlock, can i

call you jack? >> you know, i would say first of all, that -- >> okay. you didn't hear me. >> i didn't. >> i know you didn't. i said ambassador mattlock, may i call you jack? >> yes. >> so jack, what i want to ask you, i assume since you worked for ronald reagan for so many years, whether you think that reagan's rhetoric, the evil empire "tear down that wall" and all that stuff and his military buildup were enormously important in ending the cold war or not? >> they were important in convincing the american people that he was not pro communist, he was not weak. when he made his deals with the

soviet leader. in bringing the cold war to an end, he did that not because of the rhetoric as much, but because he was willing to negotiate and ending. he was never one who said, we won the cold war, by the way. he said, our system prevailed and won. and certainly he would not have attributed the breakup of the soviet union to our policy in ending the cold war, because i think he would have considered that entirely an internal matter. >> steve? you have ronald reagan, the cold warrior. you have gorbachev that grew up in communism and obviously worked his way through that system. two men who you couldn't imagine were going to come together and begin to trust each other. did reagan -- did they change each other?

did they come to their decisions to negotiate independently because of what was going on in their countries? what do you think was happening that brought this incredible thing to change the world together? >> it's certainly true that you can't imagine two more different leaders coming together to do such historic things as they did 20, 25 years ago. i think having studied history, that great leaders are political figures who transend their former selves when confronted with some historic opportunity. i think that was the case of reagan and gorbachev. when gorbachev came to power in march 1985, he already had these ideas that would lead to an attempt to end the cold war. i don't think it was ended, but you haven't asked me yet. >> go ahead. take it where you want. >> he called this new thinking. his greatness was that he was determined to follow that new thinking ending the cold war and

reforming the soviet union wherever it might lead him and it led imin t-- led him in the loss of his power. reagan's greatness was recognizing in gorbachev a historic partner and meeting him halfway. if he hadn't done, that nothing they achieved would have been achieved. one other point, it's very hard to discuss these things, at least with my students who were all born after the soviet union ended, when i look around this room, i see people with approximately the same living memory that i have. but america collectively suffers from historical amnesia. i think it's been forgotten what they achieved. when our president announced he wanted a nuclear free world, he didn't mention that reagan and

gorbachev said they would pursue that goal more than 20 years ago. >> adding to what steve said, people like me certainly did not think that ronald reagan was a great man or would be a great president. but there is one real argument for his greatness in this, and we are all old enough to have lived through 1987 and 1988 when even his own staff with the exception of people like jack and secretary of state schultz were trying to keep him away from the russians. the hard liners in his own party two he had once been the leader talked about people transforming themselves, the richard perles of the world, the casper weinbergers of the world, thought that ronald reagan was selling out the united states to this young and dynamic russian leader. and as it turned out, nothing

could have been further from the truth. and ronald reagan was in control of that situation. but left to their devices none of this would have happened. >> we now know because the soviet leadership archives are opened, partially, that gorbachev was the target of the same charges on the soviet side. that he was being played a dupe by reagan and he was selling out soviet interests, a charge which lingers in russia today. >> i would like to ask jack to tell us and tell me, because i'm eager to know, i covered reagan's white house. what actually did bring reagan around? was there a moment, was it nancy? i always believed it was, i don't know. that's my view. something brought reagan to an open mind when he hadn't had one. he was the hardliner. i don't doubt that, right?

so tell us that change, that transformation. >> well, there were two things in my opinion. one was that he was a man who basically and viscerally hated nuclear weapons. he would talk about other things and as a first campaign, he was advised not to say much about that. but from the very beginning, he thought they were an abomination and a way should be found to eliminate them. second, the influence of his wife, i think as you mentioned nancy reagan. >> i knew it! >> he was determined that her husband would go down as a president who brought peace. now, i would say i think two things. and the third, very important thing was his ability to teal with people and to understand

other people. he was a man with empathy and who did respect his interlocketor and he understood he couldn't push gorbachev further than soviet interests permitted. but i think what allowed him eventually in effect to bond with gorbachev is they were probably the only two people who really wanted to eliminate nuclear weapons and thought you could. >> right before we came out, we were having an anecdote fest, and i'm determined to hear what i just heard back there. one of the great things that happened is that these two men really got to like each other. and i don't know if this is where it started, but steve, you're going to be telling the gorbachev side of this. and dick, who is san expert, is going to help along here. but reagan starts to telling jokes. so tell some of the little

things that reagan was doing and what gorbachev did in return, because this is wonderful inside stuff. >> reagan, who obviously was a professional had an enormous stock of jokes. they used to say that bob hope had a vault full of jokes with files and whatnot. reagan did have that in his own head, but that's one thing. the gift of that is picking the right joke at the right time. >> exactly. no, that's brilliant. it's brilliant. >> the right point. and one of the -- jack made the point said that gorbachev picked up on it. one of the jokes he loved to tell was had john met yvonne. and john said, the united states is a better country than the soviet union. i can walk up to the white house and say that ronald reagan is doing a terrible job leading the country. and yvonne said, well, what's the big deal about that?

i can walk up to the kremlin and go to gorbachev and say i think ronald reagan is doing a terrible job. >> and then? gorbachev, jack? >> well, gorbachev, after the first two or three meetings, got the point and began to tell jokes himself. and the one that he would tell at times went back to the problems they had with their antialcohol campaign. the story is that this fellow is waiting in line for vodka. it's a long line. he waits half an hour. he waits 45 minutes. and finally, he said, i've had enough of this. i'm going over to the kremlin and shoot that fellow. so he goes off. half an hour later, he's back. and they said, well, did you shoot him? and he said oh, hell, no. the line there is longer than here. >> they really liked each other, but having read both jack's

incredible book, i want to recommend this to everybody. it's called "reagan and gorbachev." i love it had. and steve cohen's hobook. steve, in your book, you make the case that gorbachev really wanted to come to an agreement. he felt a need. he wanted to reform the soviet union, and he knew he had to have peace with the west and that he wanted to be part of the west. he had already come to that. he wanted to do it ahead of time. so did he drive this? he had this determination. he knew his country was in trouble. he knew what richard reeves was saying before. was he the driver? was he in the driver's seat? >> in this relationship with reagan, you mean? >> in the determination to end the cold war. is what i mean. >> you know, when you encounter a successful partnership, whether it's a commercial one or a marriage, it's probably not a

good idea to try to identify who the leading partner is. the reality is is that these two men and gorbachev just turned 80 last week. my wife, katrina, the editor of "the nation," and i were there for the birthday celebration. but gorbachev has already entered history. and he's entered history with reagan. i think that's true. if you ask gorbachev any question about ronald reagan, he replies only with the most enormous warmth, friendship and admiration. because he knows that the two of them together made it work. if one had been missing, none of that would have happened. that said, as an historian, it does seem to me that it was the emergence of gorbachev and the determined leadership to reform the soviet union in the nuclear arms race and bring russia into what he called our common

european home that was the triggering device. later, he was dependent heavily on reagan again, as i say, meeting him halfway. and i am a sort of lefty democrat and never voted for reagan. but when i saw reagan in 1985 and '86 meeting gorbachev halfway, and gorbachev desperately needed that because of this opposition to what he was doing in the kremlin. i immediately said, reagan is rising to the call of history, as he did. and it ought to be said that he had advisers at his side including ambassador jack matlock who urged him to do this. but on the other hand, presidents can listen to bad advice. in this case reagan listened to the right advice. >> jack, one of the pivotal moments in the ending of the cold war was a summit in 1986. and here's something i've always

been curious about. since i had a meeting myself with reagan in 1986, and to be honest, i worried about the state of his might. i detected, even then, seeds of s senility, to be honest with you. so here he goes off to negotiate. you worked very closely with him, getting him ready. there were briefings and so forth. tell us your assessment of the state of reagan's mind and if you ever, in all that time, worried that he was faltering, and he was going to be negotiating for the united states with the soviet union. did you ever worry? >> i did not. now, i can't say that he was always sharp on every question. like i am today, i don't always hear. and he didn't hear in one of his ears. and sometimes it makes it seem as if you, you know, are not on

top of things. but certainly whaile i was working for him, i realized -- and i think others did -- he only concentrated on three or four things. i think mike deaver once made this point. a lot of the other things, if he wasn't interested, you know, sure, he would doze off or just not pay attention. dealing with the soviet union, reducing nuclear weapons, that was one of the two or three issues that he watched like a hawk. and he made no -- he was quick to correct the staff if they were not doing what he wanted them to do. he felt strongly, for example, that he had to convince gorbachev that the strategic defense initiative was not an offensive strategy. and he would constantly ask him

in correspondence, much of which i drafted at his direction to discuss these issues, the ways to make both of our research programs nonthreatening. gorbachev would not discuss it. but the thing is, he would watch it. and i recall one letter, i did three drafts. and he kept saying, tell him, we will share. meaning the defenses. and none of them wanted this. >> when you say the strategic -- >> if we have a defense against missiles, we will share it with them. >> they all know it as "star wars." remember it? that's what you're talking about. >> the defense initiative. i don't use the term "star wars" because almost certainly it would not have been a space-based defense. this was already clear. everybody else called it star wars thinking of the movie. but it was a misconception of what we had in mind. but in any event, he kept saying

this, the bureaucracy said we can't do it. finally he wrote the note on my draft saying damn it, jack, it's my letter. this is what it's going to say. so those things that he watched -- he would check it with the staff and so on. but if he didn't agree, he would change it. so i did not notice while he was president any -- in the areas i was working on, any sense of senility. but when he came to visit us after he was president, i think there were more signs then. but that was a year and a half after he ceased being president. >> ronald reagan was one tough old bird. he was a stubborn old man who knew what he knew, knew what he wanted to know, didn't want to know much he didn't know already, and knew what he believed, and knew why he believe it had.

and if someone moved off that track, there's no doubt that his mind would wander. in fact, in private notes, the soviet private notes, they talked about the fact that as soon as you came back to a subject he was interested in, the man came alive like a tiger. literally a lion is the way they described it. you think he's dozing. and suddenly one of the russian note takers said that he's like a sleeping old lion. he's just lying there doing nothing, flicking his tail occasionally. and as you walk closer, he rolls over away from you. and when you get close enough, wham. he's got you. and that was -- and as far as the -- he had -- my source on this is a wonderful book, if you're interested in the subject, david owen, lord owen who was the foreign secretary of gr