not like he said it to me was this decision, whatever it may be, had to be approved by the american citizens. i'm thinking how else would you do this? they had -- they there had to be a sense of openness. had to be a sense -- he had me going out every day and meeting with all these press people. you know. and -- keeping them informed without talking about the proceedings. you know, there will to be -- there had to be some practice ordinary trust i built up with this generation with reporters, number one. clearly things were said that never got -- had you to give people context. and there were important institutional papers, "the new york times." all these papers that said -- you had to deal with them and give them context, constantly. great reporters, jim norton. there were a whole -- actually it is interesting, "the post" was not one of the major -- major paper in the watergate. they sort of missed -- they didn't quite understand the --

this wasn't an investigation. in other words, that they sort of missed reporting on the -- impeachment because it wasn't an investigative -- it was bnt woodward, bernstein kind of investigation. we are not uncover facts. there was a process. the reporters and -- organization step forward were people who understood process. again, you know, you had -- again, congressman kept saying you can't leave people in the dark. you have to, in proper time, keep people informed. keep the members informed. had you to move everybody along at the same time. and there -- my job wound up sort of dealing with that outside world. and his job was to do inside. >> did you deal with woodward or bernstein? >> no. rarely. two, three times. bob came. told me, you know, whispered those things in my ear. i said i have no idea what's what he's talking about so he went away.

>> by the way, drew one of the people you asked for a recommendation -- >> i don't remember. it could have been. it could have been. she's still a very close friend. i may have asked mary. great reporter in their time. >> daniel shore? >> no. no. he was too -- too investigative reporter. i -- i liked dave a lot but he was -- no. there was a whole group -- jack nelson a great civil rights -- wound up there was a generation of reporters, that's where john doar became so important. bill, jack nelson and others who went south in the -- in those early '60s and covered the civil rights movement and then became bureau chiefs and senior reporters. those are the people you -- great rapport with them. but the point is it is not -- that's irrelevant. irrelevant is that you had to

keep the public informed as you moved along. >> i'm going to move to things that may not have been -- >> thank god. >> the decision not to investigate, to actually base the whole proceeding on the work done by the -- white house, watergate special prosecution force, watergate committee. >> i don't know how -- that was a decision made. that was a decision made -- i was sitting there. sort of -- there was -- it was way above me kind of thing. i didn't understand that decision made within the committee, within -- the leadership of the house. and the staff, i mean, that's -- that's -- they came to that conclusion. i think they thought they had everything. first i don't think we had the manpower. i don't think we had the wherewithal to do original investigation, i believe. but that's -- >> you could have?

>> could have. i just don't remember now. you have to ask others who would have -- were in a better position than. >> i was decision to issue a subpoe subpoena, that must have been -- >> yeah. >> some people that did not want -- >> very. i remember -- again, that -- i would be an observer in a situation like that. you know. discussions took place, extremely intense -- i think some of the members and lawyers that you interview, have interviewed, we will talk about that. just very intense. again, not arguing. but just you don't know what to do. i mean, this is -- you know, this -- that's how we are being -- treated everything. everything was momentous. had you to respect the presidency. you had to respect the institution. had you to respect the person who held that job. it was president nixon. so everything was dealt within that context. he set the tone. so -- you don't willy-nilly just send a letter to the president

or subpoenas or whatever. you just -- you just don't do that without -- a lot of thought. lot of forethought. >> do you think he was reluctant? >> sure, he was reluctant. he was very reluctant. yes. reluctant to do it. it was -- it was precedent setting. it was a larger decision. >> do you think that mr. doar had to convince him? yes. i think john had to present the case. he had to. as a good lawyer will. he had to present why this was critical. yes, absolutely. >> do you remember the decision to retranscribe of the of the tapes because the transcripts weren't very good or filth they weren't very good? >> i remember that but i remember it happened. >> tell us -- since you did not know how the process would go, tell us about the effect of the

supreme court decision, decision against the president. >> i think it was a jolt to the committee. this is more of a member issue. in other words, i think that was -- that was like a wild moment. wild. wild. just -- and i think it had a powerful impact on the republicans. >> do you remember ever playing the smoking gun tape? >> no. >> do you remember the effect or transcript of the smoking -- >> mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> do you remember the effect on the chairman? >> nothing. will was -- i mean -- he absorbed it. i remember we talked about it one evening.

just -- you know -- it was a matter of fact conversation, i remember that kind of thing. i was like -- flabbergasted. i was sitting there thinking man, wow. this -- they were report thing. i can remember -- my vague memory, all very matter of fact. john and a couple of the lawyers, matter of fact kind of conversation. that's what i remember. in my mind i'm thinking wow, this is -- this is really important. >> you didn't know -- nobody knew the president was going to resign. >> no. >> you had to think about presenting to the house. what was the next step supposed to be? >> actually i had already started. i went over and met with -- you know, sort of -- what does this mean, you know, what's the -- he sent me off just to meet with -- >> talking about the senate. >> yeah. >> to talk to the senate.

i went over there a couple of times. i think that there was preparation. i mean -- i know there was preparation. i was not involved with those conversations. for some reason he wanted me to go start talking to the senate. before his staff did or did committee. i remember i had a couple of conversations with the staff. >> do you recall any? >> just -- just procedural. you know. you know, what's the process -- i mean, it was fact finding. how are going to go about this? if this comes here what does it mean? that kind of thing. just -- and i think that -- he just -- he didn't want any sort of connection from the staff because they didn't want to give the impression all of a sudden it was a done deal. so -- he wanted some very informal conversation. i think he was looking for knowledge. >> this is before "post"?

>> yes. >> was there a timetable -- when on -- when was house supposed to vote? it never happened because the president resign. >> sometime that fall. >> it was -- there were going to be a few months. your votes were the end of july. you were going to go into an august recess. >> come out in the fall. >> oh, my goodness. this would be a drawn-out process. >> we didn't know. in other words, we just assumed that. again, nobody had been through this before. between don't know what the house would have done. in other words -- if it -- once it left our hands, it is like that. it leaves your hands. in other words, this goes to the full house, then -- and other people start taking control. you know. speaker. i mean, this is now -- that timetable is no longer the chairman's timetable. we just had to start making assumptions and preparing. but what conversationplay -- there was a lot of

conversations, by the way, with the speaker. and -- with mr. o'neill about -- they had to start preparing for this if this was going to happen. but i sort of remember we thought -- guess there would have been an august break. we just -- just didn't know. but, you know, we thought -- it would be pretty soon after the vote. but i -- always thought, you know, september. >> and then it would go to the senate? >> yes. by the end of the year. what conversations we had he always thought it would be done by that year. >> the trial would occur by the end of the year. >> if, in fact, it -- it -- you know, steps moved forward and he was found charged are, you know, and then tried that -- process he thought would be over. just -- that was just random conversations. no one knew. >> does anyone know if the -- the inquiry -- your staff would

play a role? >> oh, no. i don't remember those conversations. i don't -- you would have to ask the staff. >> did the congressman edit if statements of information? did he actually go through and make suggestions? >> mm-hmm. you mean on the charges? >> well, first of all, the -- material. >> mm-hmm. mm-h mm-hmm. >> did he edit the articles? >> mm-hmm, he did. you can't -- because then don't know but i remember, yes. bring them over and talk. he would talk about this and in this word and that wording, what this means. yeah. there was that. other members, too. i mean -- >> did he -- did he want to get rid of these articles? >> he thought some were -- again, he put it through the political prison of -- of -- the

process. and -- i thought he -- i can't remember what -- i mean, he was stronger about some than others. >> secret bombing of cambodia. >> he -- he -- he thought that was too political. >> the -- cambodian one? >> yeah. >> what about the taxes? >> i don't remember. i remember cambodia thing came up. put him right into a partisan kind of anti-war. doesn't matter what we were or members of the committee. hay thought that was outside. he was p comfortable. >> but he couldn't prevent it. >> no. he couldn't. but -- you asked me what he thought. >> this was -- do you think it was something he did to appease -- >> yeah. he had to. that was -- but it is a vote. his judgment would be not to do it. that wasn't his call. >> part of the pressure on him and -- you mentioned this to me

off camera, you said the white house tried to -- >> right. you know, it is the cliche, you know. italians are mob connected. there was a lot of corruption. his roommate -- became mayor, he went to prison. there were a lot of politicians around newark and surrounding area that went to prison, had connection to organized crime. so the white house immediately upon -- once the process began started putting stories out that he was -- he was influenced or

in some way connected to the families. the crime families of new jersey. and this was -- we had to answer this on a regular basis. we had to deal with this issue almost every day in the early days. and papers put major investigations on this. and i do believe "the wall street journal" came forward with a story of -- just ending this. actually was a tape that -- series of tapes. tape they uncovered. fbi tape or some tape they uncovered. that where he's brought up in the tape and -- clear -- i don't remember the exact words. clear indication of the tape is that he's not one of us. and that was it. and -- there was a story in "the wall street journal" and others. very, very intense from sort of

the summer starting with president -- vice president agnew right through the fall into the winter we had to deal with these constant stories of his -- his -- connections to organized crime. >> how did you become convinced the white house -- >> i mean, it is logic. who else -- i mean, where would you -- and reporters would come to you and say we just heard this. you know. et cetera. they just -- you know, we knew where it was coming from. there was nothing could you do about it. you have to stand up and say here's -- here -- this is who he is. this is the record. those are his finances. this is, you know, have you -- had to put your palms up, as we say. you know. >> one of the other decisions that the chairman had to make was whether to call witnesses to

the -- nine people. >> mm-hmm. >> do you remember how that came about? what role the chairman played besides making the call? >> well, he made the call to do it. i think it was a strong staff -- feel they had to call these people. i didn't because i was a committee issue. it wasn't -- no reason. i don't remember any of the meetings themselves. >> where were you when you found out that president nixon was going to resign? >> sitting in our office. and -- the congressman and tv set there. we got a call. st. clair. call from someone that the president was going to go on television. 9:00, i forget, and resign. we were in utter shock. we were sitting there.

that night. we didn't know what to say. nobody said anything. it was just -- it was a shock. never entered our minds ever. none of the people -- >> you thought he -- the president would fight through the trial? >> why wouldn't he? didn't show any signs. there was nothing. took our breath away. >> did you ever have a conversation with congressman rodino? >> mm-hmm. he understood it. he didn't think it was right that he was -- he understood it. he understood president ford's motivation. lets get the country healed. again, what i say often in this conversation, he was very much a process person. he thought -- you let the system

carry forward. and -- but he wasn't strong. he didn't have -- in other words, i remember this conversation we had. he just said i understand -- again, he knew very well and had a good relationship with president ford. he said i understand. you understand how we have to move on. have to keep being -- institution process. >> by the way, since we are talking about -- vice president ford, later president ford, do you remember the politicking around this selection of the vice president by president knicks son and the fact john connally was his first choice? >> mm-hmm. >> what -- >> and then -- you know, a lot of the conversation was -- had to filter out.

a lot of conversation we picked president ford because -- who would want him as president. that was a very common sort of thought at the time. it was irrelevant to us. i remember rodino, he liked ford. he thought he was a fine, decent man. he knew him for years. but that was sort of the -- that was sort of the common wisdom at the time that it was a political move on the part. that would prevent the -- our process in moving forward because we had never -- never moved forward with the idea gerry ford would be president. >> did the chairman like the final report of his committee? >> mm-hmm. i think -- again, i think he was relieved this was oar. that he felt -- fulfilled his obligation. i think he felt -- i think he felt -- i think he felt honored

by the whole process. he was honored to do it but thought he did -- he thought he gave it his best. >> do you think that -- his relationship with tip o'neill and speaker of the house carl albert and others, did it change as a result of this process? did they have more respect for him afterwards? >> oh, yeah. he had a very wonderful rest of his career. he was honored -- he loved it. he loved the attention. yeah. he was deeply -- there was an aura about him that he carried for the rest of his career, and again, retrospectively, all the members then honored him. i remember i went to his funeral and there was people who had long gone -- had distinguished

careers, et cetera, and then came back to pay him honor. he liked that. >> can you give us a word picture -- of course she died relatively young, what was barbara jordan like? >> she was -- i have no more to add -- she was just wonderful. you liked to be with her. in other words, she'd come in the room, she'd fill the room. you would think, wow, she just filled the room. she had the voice and all of that was wonderful. she had a lot of energy. she was big, and so you like to be with her because she was funny and, you know, she was just a freshman. so it was that sort of distance, but again the chairman -- the chairman -- who wouldn't like to be around barbara jordan. she was just fun, and she was smart, and he thought, you know -- he thought, wow, what a wonderful career she had ahead

of her. he always said, my goodness, this member is going to go far. >> did the chairman do anything at the end of the process special to thank the staff? >> yeah, he thanked the staff. remember, he spent -- it sort of all went back to normal in the sense that all of a sudden, 125 people went away, whatever that number was, and there it was. >> did he go to the congressional hotel to see them, to see their offices? >> we went over a number of times. but during the process. you've read the books and the stories of people were very unhappy on the left with the process. jack brooks and others were still -- jerry and others i

guess for years carried on that they were very unhappy with the way this was conducted. >> but they wanted five articles? >> i don't know. you'd have to go back. they were unhappy. they just didn't feel he, john door, were -- with their choices and they didn't carry the process and i'm thinking what a momentous event in our history has been sort of accepted by the american public. that's how the process was to work. but, listen, it was a very traumatic undertaking. you're not going to get unanimous opinion on this. >> do you think the process worked? >> i think the process worked brilliantly. >> you leave government. you had something to do with gal

lip pee. >> yes, i produced gap lip pee. i want to leave -- it doesn't matter what i did. i had a lot of wonderful mentors, peter row dino. another wonderful mentor, john gardner. when this process ended i said, what am i going to do with my life? he said, well, go reinvent yourself. constantly reinvent yourself. he was just this wonderful man. i decided i wanted to do something that was completely not -- this was it. i said i love -- great respect for government. i just don't want to do it again. it was such a traumatic undertaking. i said, so i spent a year -- john gardner was very wise. he guided me through this year, all kinds of people.

ibm in new york where they all wore black. i'd fit in today actually. you'd interview with people and they would say, well, what have you done? what have you done? i'm thinking, wow, gist did something, but it didn't count. i didn't have an accountinging degree or a law degree. but then i got attracted to the movie business. barry diller recruited me because they don't care who you are. sort of you could -- they didn't care where you came from. that's what i loved about the business. it's true, you could work in the mail room one year and be president of the company. i loved the idea that there were no rules in the movie business. i thought what a wonderful way to sort of drain myself of this world, take a challenge i know nothing about, and go out -- i spent a number of wonderful years with -- it was barry dill

her, michaelizer in, jerry cats enberg. then i went on and left there and said it's enough of that. louie mile became a great friend. i remember i was editing one of his scripts once. again, it's like being somewhere i know nothing. he said, franz, you don't know shit. i had no idea what i'm doing. but editing the miles script. i said this is wonderful. and headed off to australia because there was a lot of young, interesting, dynamic film makers coming out of australia. i thought it would be fun. then we came across a story that eventually became gal lip pee. i had to get money. i had to get financing. i got money from -- still alive.

a guy named bob stigwood. he produced "saturday night fever," "grease." he said go find the rest of the money. i went to australia and found this little newspaper man who owned a bunch of newspapers. he thought movies were frivolous, totally frivolous because he was a newspaper man. i knew something that he knew but we never talked about it. huh he gave half the money because his father was the most instrumental person in telling the world about this tragedy of gal lip pee. of course, it was hup pert murdoch. so that was an extraordinary experience. >> you knew that about rupert murdoch's father before you met rupert murdoch. >> we never talked about it. when we said go find money,

peter and i said this is how the stories got told. it was reported he snuck out with all the dispatches to london and the "times" of london. when i went to pitch the story, he never said a word and never said a word. he had such a big empire, would he he waste his time on a film that was just peanuts to him. of course, what it was i tapped into an honor with him. >> peter weir is the one who brought mel gibson. >> yes. he found mel gibson. mel gibson who has had an interesting career. he was -- he's an american, born in upstate new york, went to australia when he was 10 and had done minor films. we saw him on stage actually. his australian accent was so thick that we started giving him

american lessons when we did the film. you could tell them extraordinary potential. peter found him, peter was also an extraordinary director, a wonderful person to deal with. that was a one-off experience, a fabulous experience. >> did you do breaker moron. >> no, bruce beresford directed that. that was done almost at the same time. it was done before gal lip pee actually by a director called bruce beresford. >> you want to mention another film you did? >> no, that's it. >> this has been wonderful. have we missed a story. >> i'm knee so much god damned trouble now with this tv shit, thank god peter is dead. >> thank you very much for your time, francis. this has been wonderful. thank you. >> thank you everybody. >> you're watching "american history tv" where every week we