one is the grievances against growing capitalism, growing capitalism strangling the rights of the people as it is then and as it is now. we have the protests in occupy wall street. it has some of the same grievances as i understand them. also, the idea of the organization and mechanics of the organization of the movement. i don't know if you are aware of this. occupy wall street is receiving criticism because they are making a deliberate attempt not to have a platform or specific grievances. maybe you can talk about the mechanics of organizing the movement as debs understood it and who might have inspired him in his life. thank you. thank you for the series. >> thank you. thanks, cal. let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his

grievances against capitalism? >> his grievance against capitalism, it was monopoly he had the most trouble with. he thought overthrow of corpate capitalism was in order. the grievance was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few. what he argued early on was that combinations of corporations of business owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy and that's what he was clearly against. so what he advocated were labo unions where workers could work together to break the monopolies that corporate entities h been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy atthe time. so, in that way, people argue that our time period is very

similar to debs' time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. >> the mechanics that he used to organize them. >> i think that is a very interesting question. it is the case that socialists, one of the things that made debs socialism work that it has not worked in the country since is the talent for organizing and their attending the meeting and separate press. they were strong critics. in a way, it sounds modern about the influence of big money on newspapers and the media of the day. very much believed there was no way people we gog hear the workers' side of the story if they did not create their side of the press. debs was the exciting person who

blew in to town and rallied the troops. they relied on grassroots organi organizing. a lot of attempts to win at the local level. the presidency was not out of reach, but it was not impossible to get on city council. >> this was before radio began. politics for americans meant what in those lives? an activity to fill the evenings in a way we don't appreciate today? >> sure. this was an enormohenormous par. >> people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches in ways that now we are busy with lives and have media in our lives. >> i think there were many more newspaper sources and they were much more barbed in political. labor unions had their own press. there was a much more

complicated mix available to people in print. >> actually, while we're talking about media, lisa phillips, will you talk about a publication which debs wrote frequently called "appeal to reason?" >> thanks. my ear piece came out for a second. it is sitting next to me. this is the "appeal to reason" right here. it was started in 1895 as a populist party newspaper. it became the journal or newspaper of the socialist party in 1901. it is one of those publications, many of newspapers existed in that time period, where people would read and find out as much information as they could. so, it was upton sinclair, whose book we showed earlier, was the "appeal to reason." other people wrote in it.

debs wrote in it. jack london wrote in it. many wrote in "appeal to reason." >> i would like to very briefly read to you from a statement that debs made after the 1912 election. he sent it by telegraph to be published in the "appeal to reason." here is briefly. "from hand it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote." now the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. debs wrote the socialist party from now on is the party of the people. the virile young giant will go on. they will demonstrate their utter impotency. how s he as a prognosticator? >> the party started to decline right after that election, at

least in terms of mbsh, and never recovered that peak. >> why? >> one reason was the wilson administration did the opposite of what debs predicted. it brought in a slate of reforms. our controls for eight-hour day for railroad workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gestures for the right for unions to organize. only small steps to what the socialists wanted, but enough to win a lot of voters. >> let's take the next telephone ca. this is from courtland, new york. sharon is on the line. >> caller: i want to thank c-span3 for the series. i wonder if your guests would comment on the formative years and what his parents did for a living.

thank you very much. >> thank you. would you like to take that ernest freeberg? >> you know what? i'm not sure i can remember what debs' father did for a living. they lived in terre haute. i know he was a great idealist. debs himself, his middle name is after victor hugo, and the name of french novelist is part of the upbringing. >> i was just remembering debs' father was a processor of pork in terre haute and he was ill. he could not do that work. there is remniscence of his wife being pregnant and they opened a small grocery in the front of

the house. he went on to be a successful grocer in terre haute. one of the debs' first jobs was an accountant for the home and gra grocery line. so that was what his family's income came from having been a small business. >> why does he have to drop out of school at age 14? >> as i recall, i think it wasn't common for people to finish high school. he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new exciting thing for young men to become part of. his first job was a paint scraper for the local railroad that was running through terre haute that was coming through. it was owned by chauncey rose. it was an excitingob for him

in an era where people didn't f >> while we're talking about his personal life, can either of you talk about his marriage? >> thaas aays a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs. but it was prettylear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congress member and not a socialist. she's often spoken in favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusstical. many decided she would have been happier if he had not pursued that life, which also kept him on the road most of the time. debs was back in terre haute mostly to colpse upstairsnd try to recover before he headed out on another campaign. she was left keeping the home fires burning in the lovely house. >> so kate spent a lot of time

in the living room where we are right now in the house of terre haute, indiana. >> with down and out railroad workerss knocking on the door. >> did they ever have any children? >> no. >> you said he traveled extensively and she chosen never to do that or was she invited to come along? >> she was never invited to come along. >> let's take our next phone call in terre haute, indiana. tom. have you been to the house? >> caller: no, i have not. i work two blocks away. i ha no excuse for that. thanks for the fantastic series. i want to make a quick comment. so many people would love to be calling. i want to say this. when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack

of benevolent employers. i want to make one point. i lived in colorado and i worked with westinghouse. i called on the mines of colorado. i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25. i would pass a town called ludlow. i would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massac are when it happened. i'm sureebs wa alive at the time. would just hang up now and please ponder what i said. you moguls of america who -- we need jobs and we need them now. please, could you tell us a little bit about the ludlow massacre in colorado? thank you. >> the ludlow massacre and

several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blames on the striking workers or protesting workers at the ti whether they be miners or whether they be protesting for their rights. what happened in ludlow, which happened i haymark and happened in other riotous incidents where there would be federal troops or authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers and many of them would be killed. i can't remember how many people died in the ludlow massacre, but h haymark, several people would be killed. the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot and for protesting. that caused a lot of that was part of the reason of the precursor of the knights of labor wenty the wayside

because they were blamed in market for the haymarket riot. thudlow massacre similarly, was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed, the workers themselves or strikers themselves were blamed for that. to get to the caller's original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. he had been friends with people in terre haute and the railroad through terre haute. it was when they brought in what mckean called and others called heavy capitalists and they were making relationships with people out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller business owners in places like terre haute and started

criticizing them for their need for profit. it wasn't small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove the small business men to become business moguls and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and haymarket riot where they did not have any choice but to strike. >> were there socialists all across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, all across the united states. here in the midwest and out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. big bill hayward was part of it midwest and east and in places like new york were the strongholds of the socialist

parties. they were drawn from rura and urban areas. they drew support from lots of people that were negatively affected by the corporate capitalism. >> you had a thought? >> i think moving toward rather benevolent employers, debs, i think, did not lieve that was possible at this point. rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to small-scale capitalism, socialists we s were arguing t business will get bigger and bigger. this was for private gain. this was a more radical provision to solve this problem. there were plenty of people who were engaged with trying to figure out how to soften the hard edges of the industrial f

revolution that was going on. andrew said there needed to be more benevolent moguls. debs said that's not the problem, essentially. we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. >> we are profiling eugene v. debs at his home in terre haute, indiana and "the contender" where 14 men tried for the presidency and lost. we have 90 minutes to learn more about his period of time and his five runs from the presidency from 1900 through 1920. for our two guests here in after he terre haute, our next caller is from john. >> caller: thanks for the time. i was intrigued that teddy roosevelt said eugene v. debs

was the most dangerous man in america. when teddy roosevelt was known as the stress buster and breaking up standard oil. it seems they have some things in common. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. >> ernest? >> good question. sure. roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debsian program and adopt it. debs from in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democrcratic through the private property and free enterprise. on the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern amon workers and the middle class about the problems of big business.

so he basically, roosevelt arguargu argued to take the good ideas in the socialist moment that we have been talking about and to adopt those. these became an important part of his progressive party platform and part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. he said, debs wants to tear down in the spiritof hate by stirring up class envy workers against their masters in a sense. what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way without socialism. >> lisa phillips, you have more to add? >> i might be remembering this wrong, but i don't think teddy roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the era of pullman. that seemed dangerous to presidents who ensure the

country ran smoothly. anytime you saw a case where there was a strike fermented by the labor union and disrupted the goods and mail at that time, that, too, would have put teddy roosevelt and eugene debs on the opposite side there. in terms of being able to stop business from functioning. >> another topic all together to understand socialist thinking in the united states in the early 20th century. what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion? >> a very large number of socialists were religious. especially in the south in oklahoma and texas. a strong party there. a very strong movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity. many of those were supporters of

debs even though debs was a believer in the most tenuous sense. he considered churches to be of the enemy. part of the apparatus to oppress workers, particularly the catholic church. he was very critical. claimed never to go into a church. but many christians felt that he in his sort of humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said i don't know what he believes, but he is the most christ-like person that i know. he is the underdog for christianity. this is an important distinction between the debsian moment and what comes after that. not everybody in the socialist movement was a believer, by any means, but it was something where that was an important part

of the mix. >> if you signed your name to a card that said i'm a member of the socialist party in this time period, what did that mean your core beliefs were? >> the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and owning last. this was igoing to result in a win for the working place and this is the next step of evolution. for america, a next or necessary step to realize the principles of the american revolution. to protect the dignity of the american individuals and to provide for the economy. >> and very much thought of themselves as patriots. we talked about that before. he spoke of lincoln and also of some of the founding fathers in his writing. he really saw himself as an

extension of the early roots of person history? >> defining -- the important movers and shakers in the american history of radicals. history is driven forward by people. he would harken back to socrates and wendel phillips. he started out with an idea that was deeply popular, but the next next step for moral evolution. >> we have a hoosier for the next call. this is chris on t line. >> caller: thanks for having the conversation. it is a great surprise to see on television tonight. i wonder if your guests would comment on debs' relationship with the industrial wrs of the world and with general strike in seattle. >> all right. lisaphillips. the i.w.w.

>> debs was a founding member of the i.w.w. which started in 1905. the i.w.w. was a clearly an industrial union movement. it was jux thtaposed with the ct lab labor union. debs created a working class of people. it is not as nationalistic. it worked to work with other countries like spain and italy. they saw them selves as part of the workers movement among workers fighting capital worldwi worldwide, not just in the united states. it fit in with debs interpretation to promote the rights of workers not only in

the united states, but other places as well. >> was he affiliated with them throughout his life? >> no, there was a split within it's kind of complicated. there was a split in the i.w.w. over the socialist party had -- a split within the socialist party that affected the i.w.w. he remained very much supported of the i.w.w., but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist party leaders morris hillquist took it into a different division than debs had in mind. >> was the i.w.w. the wobbly? >> yes. the wobblies either y ies argue.

this was a tough bunch that worked in the fields and mines. they worked to advance their cause and they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence to fight back. >> did debs agree with that? >> debs did not agree with hat. he recognized you needed violence at times, but adcating violence was n appropriate for american democracy. in fact, workers always lost. when they tried ve, move e por to spreadionce around belonged to the state. >> next up is minneapolis. this is ken. hi, ken. >> caller: hello. this is ken in minneapolis. thank you, c-span3 for the in public radio and a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about debs and media.

new york city, there is or because a famous radio . named forebuted in the early 19. it was the first non-commercial listener supportedatio nation. given debs' name and call letters, i wonder if he had any involvement in the radio station. >> thanks. his demise was in 1926. radio just coming on the scene as medium. did he have a connection? >> as far as i know, he had no direct correction to it. it is a homage to him. >> we have 35 minutes left already. this program has gone by quickly. the question for you about debs if you can answer this. if he were to walk into this room, we're surrounded by images of him all over the house. it is interesting how many you have preserved here in the

foundation. n ve us a sense of how ghli a man he was? give us a personal glimpse of him if you can. >> as far as i know, i think he coect., i'm not sure if that is >> that's about right. >> i think he was always very thin. he was always lanky. he was a c figure, but he was not burly. >> he was also an advocate of thear c eating fads of the days. more holistic health. >> he was often ill. it was hard to pin down the problem was. some biographers were not make

that clear. heould experiment with walnuts and sleeping his with head oriented to the north. he would often write back to his brother suggesting these were working out great for him. >> switching gears. as the nation started marching to world war i, what happened to the labor movement as the international political turmoil in the country was making the decisions in the role? >> su. wh first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and , were very determined to keep out of the war. esd there were isolationists, cially in the midwest and south, who said god gave us the atlantic ocean for a reason. that is not to get involved in

the european war. the groups in the country were divided deeply overseas. so there was a stroh for neutrality, initially, until things escalated out of control. wilson was elected for a second term. he kept the country out of war. as aor pce. just w afeeksr being inaugurated r a second term, started to move the country to war. ook.yo bow our vwers we are n getng into your area "democracy's prisoners, eugene v. ebs. in 1917, congress pasd a law out the speech about the wa >> it lled