act. it was never used to convict a spies during the war. theres were german spies. much of the law dealt with that. there were provisions that allowed the government to have enormous control over the dissent. the most of the master was given the power to ban any publication of anything the post master ered not to be patriotic. anybody giving us anything that was discouraging of the war movement was given a $20,000 fine and 10 to 20 yea i prison. >> the first amendment challenge. did the supreme court ever hear the law? >> r debs was one of the important test cases. there were three test cases that came up about 1,200 people were convicted under the espionage

act and sent to prison. thenanimously suorted atat time. >> debs began tbe twa at what point? >> he was -- as i said he wasn't a pacifist. there was a class struggle to take up arms at one point. he felt the civil was war an appropriate use of arms. he considered the war in europe that this was a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were going to benefit -- the old phrase a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. the were the ones who were going to suffer. that was the socialist position. when the war broke out and when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered in st. louis a few days later and

passed a proclamation vows they would fight the war in every way possible and fight the draft. upton sinclair felt was if that was the wrong move. others worried that party would be destroyed by this and labeled unamerican. debs and a number of the party decided it was a stand they needed to take. >> i'll take a call from reid in nashville, tennessee and then talk about the draft at that time. reid, your question, please. >> caller: how are you? thank you for your discussion tonight. it's very wonderful. i take -- >> thanks for watching. >> caller: yes. unfortunately, socialism debs and the idea ofthe key rd of essential planning.

that would mean there is a group who involved themselves in the ral planning of the society and that leads itself to a small group who define how citizens should behav sociali soci wonderf in the ideals and communism, wonderful in the ideals, madison described it correctly. we are in competition with one another. that is what satisfies. that leads to individual freedom. central planning leads to a small group, which today, reflects, today as we want someone whose central plans in society who benefits and who doesn't benefit. it leads to who wins and who loses. thank you. thank you again. >> thanks, reid.

lisa phillips. >> that was not too far off of debs' position. the central planners of his day were the large business owners. the rockefellers and cornelius vanderbilts. they had a lot of political power and through monopoly formation, were the central planners through that period. he would have been with you on that. but he just wanted there to be a more diverse group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. he was against the central planning done in the period by wealthy persons and business owners. >> in the interest of time here, we were talking about the draft. i want to go on to his position on the draft. his famous speech in canton, ohio. to share with our viewers, a

speech that ended up having debs arrested. to get a faelavor of it to furnish the bloodnd never had a voice ineclaring war or making peace. if war is right, let it be declared by the people. when he made that speech, did he know he w going to go to jail? >> he d know that it was likely. he knew there were federal agts and stenographers in the start of the g down the speech. speech, ed be careful what i say. i don't believe, but iave to be careful. i know i'm being watched. the audience fully understood the situation. he spent much the time watching

his colleagues in prison. he said if they're guilty, i'm guilty. >> was it a big national event? >> yes, it was. the trial was in cleveland. debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. his lawyers, you know, hoped to get him off on a technicalit and making a strong free speech argument in hisdefense. he felts if the system was rigged. thhe jiciary in the big pockets of business and he woultakespportunity to win a propaganda coup by laying out his life's work. >> and he ultimately was sentenced to ten years. you said the terms were up to 20? >> yes. he was an older man at that

point and not in good health. when he went off to prison, many people assumed if he did not get out, he would die in prison. >> we have a couple of minutes left. we will take a couple of calls and tk te time in prison. to oklahoma and donna. >> caller: hello. i'm so happy to hear this program. i can't tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. a little comment about ludlow, colorado. i was a very good friend of a woman who is my mother's age. she talked about her parents being partf what happened in ludlow. she told me bee w i going a road tp with my son look for a sign trinidad wi is "this is t place." that is the place where my

friend terry's mother and father ran down a dry river bed and shots fired all around them running for their lives. the second thing i would like to say is a little something about upton sinclair. i lived in san pedro, california for several the land of dock workers. upton sinclair was arrested in san pedro for reading the constitution to the dock workers. thategan the southern aclu. the thd comment is i have moved back to oklahoma. i have been gone for about 50 years. i lived here as a teenager. but i went a labor rally in support of the wisconsin publ oyees andas on the state capitol steps. a friend of mine stood to me with a little sign in latin. state motto.

it was from a desire. it is conquers now we are thereddest state in the union which iric thing. >> we will let that stand. thyo. will take a call fr eric in arizona. >> caller: this is eric. i always joined the program. i think eugene debs tried to keep us to our ideals. my question is about joe paraman. he was a social christian socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. and later involved with the mcnamara brothers and that trial

to further their cause. joe was one of the attorneys with clarence darrow. i know debs defended in print the mcnamaras. i wondered if think could comment on that. >> lisa phillips, is this a period of time you could fill us in on? >> i don't know enough about it. i do know that i failed to mention earlier that clarence darrow was a big part of debs' defense in 1904 after being accused of convicted of contempt of court after the pullman strike. i don't know enough about joe paraman to comment. >> debs did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building, which was the los angeles times building, which was ther of the tremendous

anti-labor sentiment at that point. he believed the mcnamaras were innocent. much o hdefense of them was really based on believing this was a false charge. >> his second sentencing was under the espionage act. he made a speech is sentencing. one of his quotes is among eugene v. debs most famous. it is i said then and i said now. there is a lower class and i am in it. there is a criminal class and i am in it. there is a soul in prison and i am not free. he went to prison and in 1920, he started the campaign. can you tell me how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta. how did he do that? >> it was an awkward situation for the federal government.

he was a saditionist being jailed and he was a legitimate candidate from a legitimate party. the government allowed him to campaign eight 500-word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. somebody who had been on the red special and giving hundreds of speeches was spending the campaign relying on his party to go out an the. >> lisa s,pyou have one of his campaign can you show it? >>ere itis. >> it is very smal what does it is a? >> it sa "convict number 9653 for president." one of the most famous campaign butts fopresident in u.s. history. one of the only like it. >> he managed to garner nearly 1

million votes from inside the federal pententiary. how did he do that? >> heid that because he had such a national following. it was1920. pele knew of his message. the i.w.w. continued to support him. labor unions continued to support m. ite the fact that he was accused of encoung people not enlist in the military during world w i which was extremely problematic, he sll had a following among workers and trade unions, he did that. >> what were the themes of the 1920 campaign? >> many of the socialists leaders and debs a little less, his campaign said this is a vote for free speech.

this is an opportunity for all americans, whether you are a socialist or not, to cast a vote in protest of the wilson administration. debs embodied point all of the prisoners and all of the ons actiatavy state violence and the postal ceoro squash. pacifists of all kinds. many americans whoca in the grip of war fever had thought that was a good idea. started to reconsider that. they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the american civil liberties union in trying to advance their rights. there were only about 100,000 socialists, actually far less than that at this point. i think the number is something in the 20,000 to 30,000 dues

paying members. he got 1 million votes. some of those people were sociali socialists, but i think a lot of the people were voting for free speech. >> terre haute, indiana. this is dave. hi, dave. >> caller: hello, how are you all? >> great, thanks. here we are in your town. do you have a question about one of your famous citizen >> caller: i do. i' a graduate of the indiana state university. what was eugene v. debs impact on the university at the time if any? was indiana a normal school and school of educators? he take part in the development of the university? >> thanks very much. lisa phillips, do you know? >> i don't know. that's a great estion. i don't know if eugene debs had any kind of influence onndiana state as a formal state in that period. i am curious now to find out.ac.

ralph, go ahead. >> caller: yes, i'm a uaw worker from utate new york. i think the problem had at the time, you had eugene debs and socialist labor party and thociali workers party. then you had sam gompers. debsnd gompers never saw eye to ey that is a fl it was the splinter gro that w the problem that he never was able to achieveis goals. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. thank you very much. >> lisa phillips. >> there was a huge split and the caller is right. this continues to the present day among labor unions with the split between craft ionism which was embodied byheabor

union and industrial labor union which is the i.w.w it erased the lines that did workers from unskilled workers. the amican feration of labor was composed of craft-based unions. whether they are cooper or plumbers or brick layers or that sort of thing. it was a very different kind of approach toward representing working classinterests. they did not see eye-to-eye in continuing into e 1930s and '4 and '50s and beyond. >> debs campaigning for president in 1920. during the wilson administration, twice, his attorney general put before him clemency petitions. why did wilson say no? >> it's a little complicated. wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as way to

clear the war. he had a stroke. he seemed to sort of lose his moral compass. ny people felt it was an obvious gesturef goodwill that he might make. herdfrom a lot of soldiers and theirmilies that debsas atraitor. it was not just the government that considered debs to be and these others to haversedhe line. debs was the embodiment of that dissent. >> was there activeampaign with lots of money from the american legion to kebs in jail? >> sure. that was one tir missns when they organized after world war i. keep debs in prison. th ke klux klan was forming at this time. it is important th debs stay in prison. there was a lot of pressure on

the president and not a lot of political gain in his judgment to release. >> how did he secure an early release? >> well, wilson left office and the pressure on the president of warren harding. people were less convincing because harding was a pro-business republican. there were plenty of socialists that supported wilson. it seems like wilson would be the one to let debs out of prison. harding returned the country to the pre-war normalcy to stop the tensions. the protest movement to get debs out of prison was not just the election, t a huge movement. ere were titions gathered on the street of terre haute and across the country.

massive petition drives. they bring the petitns in on a back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. many, you know, people from across europe and the united states george bernardhall and h.d. wells and helen keller -- many people involved to try to get the prisoners out. for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess from wilson. so in the name of normalcy, he waited a while and let debs out of prison. >> not only let out, but invited him to the white house? >> that's right. >> debs went? >> debs went. yeah. >> what do we knuttow abo meeting? >> neither one of them said anything about it. it was a christmmeeting. debs came out and said harding

seems lke a nice man. i believe he sa yid, know, the prident ked me to tone down my rhetoric. i have no intention of doing that. the train and headed to terre haute. >> you are looking at rare footage. i don' has been seen house andv of debs coming out th medi after his meeting wi psint the. he livedn 1926. we ve about ten minutes left. let's get a couple of calls. ann arbor, michigan. go ahead. >> caller: i have two questions. >> go ahead, esm >> caller: i have two questions. hello? >> i'm going to move on. james, we can hear you. let's move on. our time is short. let's go to graham in

charleston, south carolina. >> caller: good evening. i want to know what you think, if any, debs movement could exist modern day america with the development of global capitalism and what you think debs would think about the tea party movement that is going on currently. thank you. >> thanks, very much. that is always a tough thing for historians to project what a historical character may think of today. >> it needs to be done with real caution. first thing i would say is global capitalism is not something new. that was very much an issue with the flow of immigrates. immigrants. metimes we erste he global nature of the economy we live in now. stars ae tey goes, lisa?

>>wel, heinly wouldn't have been in agreement with the tea party support of big simplest way can put it. i don't know. his message still resonates with us today. we're still facing some of the same problems he was fighting against as a result of workers wages being driven down by the global and multinational corporations and not just in the u.s., but worldwide. he would certainly have a lot to say about the same things that escalated from his period to today. i'm sure he would still be against the negative impact of multinational corporations now globally. >> you have a firtact for us to look at. cell blockok at the size of tho. >> i y're huge.

r> why don't wese rem of his prison term to help us finish out the pra with the last six or seven minutes left. how is viewed by the labor movement today? how do they look back on his time and contributions? >> well, i just attended a banquet last week but on by the debs foundation. many trade unions were and dann glover was in attendance. everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. he continues to carry that legacy over for workers this country and beyond. it certainly resonates he in terre haute and among trade unionists across the country, i would argue. >> as we think about his l years, i'm showing you before we startedre the "time" magazine with the headline "radicals,

eugene v. debs." around him he saw the socialist party dissint grating. a month ago he died a the age of 71. what were his final years like after prison? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been splintered by the war without success. that was both the self inflicted wound because the socialist party had a split own communism. it was a very difficult thing for him. th comnists were trying to convin h to joi them. he was the country's most famous high profile a bel radical

and the communists wanted to have him on board.success. >> he is buried here in terre haute, indiana, at highland lawns cemetery. we have video of his grave site. we're going to look at that as we listen to manny from new york city. >> caller: yes, hi. my question is what was eugene debs' view on the russian revolution, and did he visit russia at this time, and can you separate socialism from marxism

during this time period? thank you very much. >> tnks so much. huge topics annot ch>> right. he did not visit russia. there was an attempt to get him o to russia. the bolsheviks considered debs to be an american hero. and he was, as i said, an admirer of the bolshevik revolution but ultimately felt like the things the russians -- the bolsheviks did in russia were not appropriate for american socialism, that americans, in spite of all he had experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions >> another terre haute caller. it's great to have people llating. this is todd. go ahead, todd. >> cal hi. i'm calling from terre haute.

and i'd like to thank you for this program. for lisa who i a member of the eugene v. debs foundation, i'd like her to address debs' continuing legacy of peace, equality and social justice and let people know how they might pursue their interests in debs if they want to know something more about it. >> certainly. well, you know, in this age of technology, there's a website devoted to the debs foundation. so that's certainly an easy way to access more information about the debs foundation and about what's here in the debs house and about debs' legacy. and you know, the social justice piece is what we call it today. he, as i said er,elie certainly continues to provide inspiration to working people here in terre haute and throughout the u.s. as they struggle against lowering wages that are plaguing us today.

>> this house is open for visitors. how many do you get every year, and how do people visit? >> i don't know the numbers on how many people we have every year, but the museum is open ever afternoon of the week. and on saturdays. and you can go to the website and contact karenbrn who runs tours of the museum throughout the week. >> we have one minute left. i'm going to turn the floor over to you. >> another great research is the indiana state university special collections has online of an amazing collection of images of debs but also pamphlets and access to his letters and so forth. so that's another great place. >> plug your book as we close here. "ernest freeberg's book about eugene v. debs, his espionage campaign and his final years. i want to say thanks to both of you as we close out here to come being with us of terre haute, indiana, and telling us