>> i'm loving the series. thank you for the sear es. really fascinating history. just off the bat here, a couple things that strike me and hopefully your guests can comment, i was wondering, one is the grievances against growing capitalism, stringaling the rights of the people as it is now. we have occupy wall street that has some of the same grievances, as i understand them, and also the idea of the organization, the mechanics of the organization of the movement. i don't know if you are aware of this. occupy wall street is receiving criticism because they are making a deliberate attempt not to have a platform or specific grievances. maybe you can talk about the mechanics of organizing the movement as debs understood it and who might have inspired him

in his life. with things he might belief. thank you, thank you for the series. >> thank you. thanks, cal. let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism? >> his grievance against capitalism, it was monopoly he had the most trouble with. that's why he thought that an overthrow of capt capitalism was in order. the grievance was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few. and the controlling, what he argued early on was that combinations of corporations of business owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy and that's what he was clearly against. so what he advocated were labor unions as similar combinations of workers who could then work together to break the monopolies

that corporate entities had been forming with each other to try to control many aspects of the economy at the time. so, in that way, people argue that our time period is very similar to debs' time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. >> the mechanics that he used to organize them. >> i think that is a very interesting question. it is the case that socialists, one of the things that made debs socialism work that it has not worked in the country since is the talent for organizing and their willingness to attend a lot of meetings and develop a separate independent press. they were strong critics. in a way, it sounds modern about the influence of big money on newspapers and the media of the day. very much believed there was no way people were going to hear the workers' side of the story

or their side of the story if they didn't create their own alternative press. that was crucial. debs was the exciting person who blew in to town and rallied the troops. socialism really relied on much more of a grassroots organizing process. a lot of attempts to win at the local level. the presidency was out of reach, but it wasn't impossible to get on the city council. >> this was before radio began. politics for americans meant what in those lives? was it an activity to fill the evenings in ways that we don't really appreciate today? >> sure. this was a period of enormous party loyalty. >> people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches in ways that now we are busy with lives and have media in our lives. and that sort of thing. >> i think there were many more

newspaper sources and they were much more barbed in political. labor unions had their own press. there was a much more complicated mix available to people in print. >> actually, while we're talking about media, lisa phillips, will you talk about a publication which debs wrote frequently called "appeal to reason?" >> sure. my ear piece came out for just a second. it is sitting next to me. this is the "appeal to reason" right here. it was started in 1895 as a populist party newspaper. it became the journal or newspaper of the socialist party in 1901. it is one of those publications, many of newspapers existed in that time period, where people would read and find out as much information as they could. so, it was upton sinclair, whose

book we showed earlier, was the "appeal to reason." the first time it was published was in "the appeal to reason." other people wrote in it. debs wrote in it. jack london wrote in it. many authors of the period would have written first in the "appeal to reason." which was after 1901. >> i would like to very briefly read to you from a statement that debs made after the 1912 election. he sent it by telegraph to be published in the "appeal to reason." results of the 1912 election statement. briefly. "from hand it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote." now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. we're the only ones who came out with colors flying. debs wrote the socialist party from now on is the party of the people. the virile young giant will go make history in the next few years, soon after, the democrats will feel empowered and

thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust. how was he as a prognosticator? >> the socialist party started to decline right after that election, at least in terms of membership, and never recovered that peak. >> why? >> one reason was the wilson administration did the opposite of what debs predicted. it brought in a slate of reforms. our controls for eight-hour day for railroad workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gestures for the right for unions to organize. only small steps to what the socialists wanted, but enough to win a lot of voters. >> let's take the next telephone call. this is from courtland, new york. sharon is on the line. go ahead, please. >> caller: i want to thank c-span3 for the series.

i'm? joy enjoying it so much. i wonder if your guests would comment on the formative years and what his parents did for a living. thank you very much. >> thank you. would you like to take that ernest freeberg? >> you know what? i'm not sure i can remember what debs' father did for a living. they lived in terre haute. i know he was a great idealist. debs himself, his middle name is after victor hugo, and the name idealism of the french novelist was part of his upbringing. >> i was just remembering debs' father was a processor of pork in terre haute in a manufacturing plant and he was ill. he could not do that work. there is reminiscence of his being depressed as a worker and his wife, they had two small

children and she was pregnant with eugene debs so they opened a small grocery in the front of their house. he went on to be a successful grocer in terre haute. his dad was a grocer, and so one of debs' first jobs was as an accountant for the home and grocery line. he had experience with the family business until that enabled him to do that work. so that was what his family's income came from having been a small business. >> why does he have to drop out of school at age 14? >> as i recall, i think it wasn't common for people to finish high school. he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become part of it. his first job was a paint

scraper for the local railroad that was running through terre haute that was coming through. it was owned by chauncey rose. and then by william mckeen. he was a paint scraper first, and it was a new and exciting job for him in an era where people didn't commonly finish high school. >> while we're talking about his personal life, can either of you talk about his marriage? >> that was always a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs. but it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congress member and not a socialist. she's often spoken in favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusiastically. many decided she would have been happier if he had not pursued that life, which also kept him on the road most of the time. debs was back in terre haute

mostly to collapse upstairs and try to recover before he headed out on another campaign. she was left keeping the home fires burning in the lovely house. >> so kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are right now in the house of terre haute, indiana. >> with down and out railroad workers knocking on the door. and hoping they could see their hero. >> did they ever have any children? >> no. >> you said he traveled extensively and she chose never to do that, or we don't know that she was ever invited to go along? >> let's take our next phone call in terre haute, indiana. tom. here we are in your home town. have you been to the debs house? >> caller: no, i have not. i work two blocks away. i have no excuse for that. thank you for a fantastic series. i would like to make a quick comment because there's so many people across america who would love to be calling.

i lucked out to do it. i want to say this. when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers. i want to make one point. i lived in colorado and i worked with westinghouse. i called on the mines of colorado. i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25. i would pass a town called ludlow. i would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massacre and i'm not sure when it happened. i'm sure debs was alive at the time. i would just hang up now and please ponder what i said. you moguls of america who -- we need jobs and we need them now. please, could you tell us a

little bit about the ludlow massacre in colorado? thank you. >> the ludlow massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blamed on the striking workers or the protesting workers at the time, whether they be miners or whether they be protesting for their rights. what happened in ludlow, which happened in haymarket and happened in other riotous incidents where there would be federal troops or authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers and many of them would be killed. i can't remember how many people died in the ludlow massacre, but haymarket and other riots in homestead strike, several people would be killed. then the unions or the striking workers would be blamed for

having caused a riot and for protesting. that caused a lot of -- that was part of the reason of the precursor of the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed in part for the haymarket riot which caused the deaths of several people. the ludlow massacre similarly, was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed, the workers themselves or strikers themselves were blamed for that. to get to the caller's original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. he had been friends with people in terre haute like william mckeen who owned part of the railroad that came through terre haute, who he supported when they had the best interested of terre haute in mind. it was when they brought in what mckean called and others called heavy capitalists and they were making relationships with people

out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller business owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. it wasn't small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove the small business men to become business moguls and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and haymarket riot among workers who fwelt they the no other choice but to strike. >> were there socialists all across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, all across the united states. here in the midwest and out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. big bill haywood was a founding member of it. mostly out west, oklahoma, the

midwest and east in places like new york, were the strongholds of the socialist party. they drew support from rural americans and farms being effective negatively by capitalism, from urban areas like chicago, new york, from western coal miners, so they drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively effected by the rising of this corporate kind of capitalism. >> you had a thought? >> i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, debs, i didn't think believed it was possible at this point. rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to small-scale capitalism, socialists were arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. the important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than by individuals for private gain. this was a more radical

proposition as a way to solve the problem. there were plenty of people who were seriously engaged with trying to figure out how to soften the hard edges of the industrial revolution that was going on. mark andrew carnegie, most notably, with his gospel of wealth, said they needed to be more benevolent moguls. debs said that's not the problem, essentially. we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. >> we are profiling eugene v. debs at his home in terre haute, indiana, in our series "the contender" where 14 men tried for the presidency and lost but changed american history. we have 90 minutes to learn more about his period of time and his five runs from the presidency from 1900 through 1920. for our two guests here in terre haute, our next caller is from outside washington, this is john. hi, john. >> caller: wonderful program,

thanks for c-span. i was intrigued by your guest's comment that teddy rosevelt said that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in america or something to that affect. when teddy roosevelt was known as a trust buster and breaking up standard oil. it seems they have some things in common. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. >> ernest? >> good question. sure. roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debsian program and adopt it. debs with his interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democratically, that would run undermine one of the pillars of american democracy and private property and free enterprise.

on the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers and the middle class about the problems of big business. so he basically, roosevelt argued it was important to take the good ideas, the things we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways we have been talking ability and to adopt those. these became an important part of his progressive party platform and part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. he said, debs wants to tear down in the spirit of hate by stirring up class envy workers against their masters in a sense. what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way without socialism. >> lisa phillips, you have more to add? >> i think too, i might be remembering this wrong, but i

don't think teddy roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the a.r.u. with pullman. that seemed dangerous to presidents who were in charge of making sure the country ran smoothly. anytime you saw a case where there was a strike fermented by by a national liker union that disresulted the goods and something as crucial as the mail in that time period, that, too, would have put teddy roosevelt a and you jeeugene debs on the op side of the divide there in terms of how able you should be to top business from functioning. >> another topic all together to understand socialist thinking in the united states in the early 20th century. what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion? >> a very large number of socialists were religious. especially in the south in oklahoma and texas. a strong party there.

a very strong movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity. many of those were supporters of debs even though debs was a believer in the most tenuous sense. he considered churches to be of the enemy. part of the apparatus to oppress workers, particularly the catholic church. he was very critical. claimed never to go into a church. but many christians felt that he in his sort of humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said i don't know what he believes, but he is the most christ-like person that i know. his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. this is an important distinction

between the debsian socialist movement and the movement that comes after that. not everybody in the socialist movement was a believer, by any means, but it was something where that was an important part of the mix. >> if you signed your name to a card that said i'm a member of the socialist party in this time period, what did that mean your core beliefs were? >> the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and the owning class. this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessarily next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, i think, a necessary next step to realize or to protect the principles of the american revolution. to protect the dignity of the individuals embodies in their ability to participate equally in their economy. >> and very much thought of

themselves as patriots. we touched on that theme before. >> yes. >> harkining back, he spoke of lincoln and also of some of the founding fathers in his writings. he really saw himself as an extension of the early roots of american history? >> defining american -- the important movers and shakers in american history as being radicals. history is driven forward by people. hi he would point back to jesus, to sock rate, wendell philips. they start out with an idea that seems deeply unpopular, but in retrospect, it's a necessary next step for moral evolution. >> we have a hoosier for the next call. this is chris on the line. welcome to the conversation. >> caller: thanks for having the conversation. it is a great surprise to see on television tonight. i wonder if your guests would be able to comment on debs' relationship with the industrial

workers of the world and with general strike in seattle. >> all right. lisa phillips. the i.w.w. >> debs was a founding member of the i.w.w. which started in 1905. the i.w.w. was a clearly an industrial union movement. it was juxtaposed against the federal labor which is a craft skilled labors union. it was like what he promoted with socialism, a working class of people. its boundaries are not as nationalistic, and it's thought to work with workers in other countries, spraain, france, ita. this never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of a worker's movement among workers

fighting capital world wide rather than just in the united states. it fit in with debs interpretation to promote the rights of workers not only in the united states, but other places as well. >> was he affiliated with them throughout his life? >> no, there was a split within it's kind of complicated. there was a split in the i.w.w. over -- the socialist party had -- there was a split within the socialist party that affected the i.w.w., so he remained very much supported the i.w.w. but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist party leaders, i think it was morris hillquist took -- and big bill haywood took over the i.w.w., brought in different divisions than debs had in mind. >> was the i.w.w. the wobbly?

>> yes. one of the most important breaks was over the issue of violence or sabotage. the wobblies argued. this was a tough bunch in a tough environment working in the mines and lumber fields. they argued there were times when in order to advance their cause, they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence in order to fight back. >> did debs agree with that? >> debs did not agree with that. he wasn't a pacifist. he recognized you needed violence at times, but advocating violence was not appropriate for american democracy. in fact, workers always lost. when they tried violence, most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. >> next up is minneapolis. this is ken. hi, ken. >> caller: hello. this is ken in minneapolis. thank you, c-span3 for the series.

i work in public radio and a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about debs and media. in new york city, there is or was a famous radio station wevb. the name for eugene v. beens. it debuted in the early 1920s. it was the first non-commercial listener supported radio stations. given debs' name and call letters, i wonder if he had any involvement in the radio station. >> thanks. his demise was in 1926. radio just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. did he have a connection? >> as far as i know, he had no direct correction to it. it is a homage to him. >> we have 35 minutes left already. this program has gone by quickly. the question for you about debs

if you can answer this. if he were to walk into this room, we're surrounded by images of him all over the house. it is interesting how many you have preserved here in the foundation. can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was? was he slight? give us a personal glimpse of him if you can. >> as far as i know, i think he was 6'2" or 6'3". ernest, i'm not sure if that is correct. >> that's about right. >> i think he was always very thin. he was very lanky. you can see that in the pictures of him. he was that way from his youth on. so he was a commanding figure, but he was not burly. i guess i would say. >> you told me he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fads of the days, more early holistic health. can you tell us about that?

>> he was often ill. it was hard to pin down the problem was. some biographers suggested it was a nervous exhaustion from the campaigns, the stress he was under. he would retreat and try to recover and he would experiment with walnuts and sleeping -- a catch of diet and sleeping with his head oriented to the north and these kinds of things. he would often write back to his brother suggesting these were working out great for him. >> switching gears. in our time, as the nation began to march toward world war i, what happened to the labor movement as all of the international political turmoil in the country was making the decisions about his role in that? >> sure. when the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were very determined to keep out of the war.

and there were isolationists, especially in the midwest and south, who said god gave us the atlantic ocean for a reason. that is not to get involved in the european war. the many large immigrant groups in the country were deeply divided over the conflict overseas but didn't want to participate, helping the other side. so there was a strong push for neutrality, initially, until things escalated out of control. wilson was elected for a second term. campaigning that he had kept the country out of war, that he was a negotiator for peace. just weeks after being inaugurated for a second term, he started to move the country to war. >> i want to show our viewers your book. we are now getting into your subject area "democracy's prisoners, eugene v. debs."