the great war and the rise to dissent. in 1917, congress passed a law about the speech about the war. would you tell the viewers what the law was? >> it is called the espionage act. it was never used to convict any spies during the war. theres were german spies. much of the law dealt with that. there were provisions that allowed the government to have enormous control over the dissent. the post master was given the power to ban any publication that was -- anything that the post master considered to be not supportive of the war, not patriotic. anybody deemed to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was libel to have a $10,000 fine and 10 to 20 years in prison. >> the first amendment challenge all over this. did the supreme court ever hear the law? >> sure. debs was one of the important test cases.

there were three test cases that came up about 1,200 people were convicted under the espionage act. >> and were sent to prison. >> and were sent to prison. the supreme court unanimously supported it at that time. >> debs began to be anti-war at what point? >> he was -- as i said earlier, he wasn't a pacifist. there are some wars, a class struggle in which it might make sense at some point to take up arms. and he felt that the civil war was an appropriate use of arms. he considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument was this was a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were going to benefit, the old phrase, a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. there was lots of money to be make in the war, but the working people were the ones who were going to suffer.

that was the socialist position. when the war broke out and when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered in st. louis a few days later and passed a proclamation vowing they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way they could and fight the draft actively. a number of socialists broke from the party at that point. upton sinclair felt was if that was the wrong move. others worried that party would be destroyed by this and labeled un-american. but debs and quite a number of the party decided it was a stand they needed to take. >> i'll take a call from reid in nashville, tennessee and then ask you about what the popular view in america was about the draft at that time. reid, your question, please. >> caller: how are you? thank you for your discussion tonight. it's very wonderful. i want to take -- >> thanks for watching. >> caller: yes.

unfortunately, socialism and debs and the idea of the key word of essential planning. that would mean there is a group who involved themselves in the central planning of the society and that leads itself to a small group who define how citizens should behave. i want to say that socialism, although wonderful in its ideals and communism ideals and all that, does not truly exist. i believe that james madison described it correctly. unfortunately, we are in competition with one another. that is what satisfies. that leads to individual freedom. central planning leads to a small group, which today, reflects today, as we want someone whose central plans in society who benefits and who doesn't benefit.

it leads to someone in a small group calling who wins and who loses. thank you. thank you again. >> thanks, reid. lisa phillips. comments? >> that was not too far off of debs' position. believe it or not because what he was arguing is that the central planners of his day were these large business owners, the carnegies, rockefellers, vanderbilts who had a lot of political power influence and in essence through monopoly formation, were the central planners of the economy in that period. he would have been with you on that. but he just wanted there to be a more diverse group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. he was against the central planning done in the period by wealthy by that point, americans and business owners.

>> in the interest of time here, we were talking about the draft. i want to go on to his position on the draft. his famous speech in canton, ohio. to share with our viewers, a speech that ended up having debs arrested. to get a flavor of it. hub is wrhere is one of two quotes. who shed their blood to furnish their kormss never had a voice in declaring war or making peace. yours is not the reason why, yours but to do and die, if war is right let it be declared by the people. when he made that speech, did he know he was going to go to jail? >> he had to know that it was likely. he knew there were federal agents and stenographers in the audience taking down the speech. i think he was -- he gave a number of speeches along the same lines up to that point and had not been arrested. he said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say.

i'm not going to say anything i don't believe, but i have to be careful. i know i'm being watched. the audience fully understood the situation. he spent much the time watching saying his colleagues were already in prison and if they're guilty, i'm guilty. >> what was his trial like, a big national event? >> yes, it certainly was. it was in cleveland. debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. his lawyers, you know, hoped to get him off on a technicality and also were interested in making a strong free speech argument in his defense. he felt as if the system was rigged. that the judiciary was in the pockets of big business and it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coupe for socialism by laying out his life's work.

>> and he ultimately was sentenced to ten years. you said the terms were up to 20? >> yes. it was hard to say he got a break. he was an older man at that point and not in good health. when he went off to prison, many people assumed if he did not get out, he would die in prison. >> we have about 20 minutes left. we're going to take a couple calls and talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. to oklahoma and donna. >> caller: hello. i'm so happy to hear this program. i can't tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. a little comment about ludlow, colorado. i was a very good friend of a woman who is my mother's age. she talked about her parents being part of what happened in ludlow. she told me because i was going a road trip with my son to look

for a sign just north of trinidad along the road, and all it will say is "this is the place." that is the place where my friend terry's mother and father ran down a dry river bed and shots fired all around them running for their lives. the second thing i would like to say is a little something about upton sinclair. i lived in san pedro, california for several years. the land of dock workers. upton sinclair was arrested in san pedro for reading the constitution to the dock workers. that began the southern california aclu. the third comment is i have moved back to oklahoma. i have been gone for about 50 years. i lived here as a teenager. but i went to a labor rally in support of the wisconsin public employees and was on the state capitol steps.

a friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin. she told me it was the oklahoma state motto. it was from a socialist desire. it is labor conquers all. now we are the reddest state in the union which is a ironic thing. >> thank you so much for your comments, we'll let that stand and take a call from eric in los angeles. go ahead. >> caller: this is eric. i also am enjoying the program. i think eugene debs tried to keep us to our ideals. my question is about joe paraman. he was a social christian socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. and later involved with the

trial of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. joe was one of the attorneys with clarence darrow. i know debs defended in print the mcnamaras. i wondered if they could comment about that. thank you. >> lisa phillips, is this a period of debs' life you could fill us in on? >> i don't know enough about it. i do know that i failed to mention earlier that clarence darrow was a big part of debs' defense in 1894 after he was accused of convicted of contempt of court after the pullman strike. i don't know enough about joe paraman to comment. on his involvement with debs or the mcnamara brothers. >> debs did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building, which was the los

angeles times building, which was the center of the tremendous anti-labor sentiment at that point. he believed the mcnamaras were innocent. much of his defense of them was really based on believing this was a false charge. >> his second sentencing was under the espionage act. he made a speech at his sentencing. one of his quotes is among eugene v. debs' most famous. it is i said then and i said now. that while there is a lower class, i am in it. and while there is a criminal element, i am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, i am not free. he went to prison and in 1920, campai campaign, he decided to take part in. can you tell me about how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta?

how did he do that? >> he was not allowed -- it was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a seditionist being jailed, but he was also a legitimate candidate from a legitimate legal party. they showed up, presented him with allowed him to give a spee the socialists did. the government allowed him to campaign by submitted eight 500-word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. somebody who had been on the red special and giving hundreds of speeches was spending the campaign relying on his party to go out and spread the word. >> lisa phillips, you have one of his campaign buttons. can you show it to us? >> here it is. >> it is very small. what does it say? >> it says "convict number 9653 for president."

one of the most famous campaign buttons for president in u.s. history. one of the only like it. >> he managed to garner nearly 1 million votes from inside the federal penitentiary. how did he do that? >> he did that because he had such a national following. it was 1920. he had been in the national newspapers for several years. people knew of his message, the i.w.w. continued to support him. labor unions continued to support him. despite the fact that he was accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military during world war i which was extremely problematic, he still had a following among workers among trade unionists, among socialists who believed in his message. he did so because of his

reputation by then. >> what were the themes of the 1920 campaign? >> many of the socialists leaders and debs a little less, his campaign said this is a vote for free speech. this is an opportunity for all americans, whether you are a socialist or not, to cast a vote in protest of the wilson administration. debs embodied at that point all of the prisoners and all of the actions that have been done by mob violence, by state laws, by the post aal censor to squash. pacifists of all kinds. had been rounded up. by 1920, many americans who, you know, in the grip of war fever had thought maybe that was a good idea. started to reconsider that. they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the american civil liberties union in trying to advance their rights. there were only about 100,000

socialists, actually far less than that at this point. i think the number is something in the 20,000 to 30,000 dues paying members. he got 1 million votes. some of those people were socialists, but i think a lot of the people were voting for free speech. >> terre haute, indiana. this is dave. hi, dave. >> caller: hello, how are you all? >> great, thanks. here we are in your town. do you have a question about one of your famous citizens? >> caller: i do. i'm a graduate of the indiana state university. the same university that you all are sitting on. what was eugene v. debs impact on the university at the time if any? was indiana a normal school and a school of educators? did he take part in the development of the university? >> thanks very much. lisa phillips, do you know? >> i don't know. that's a great question. i don't know if eugene debs had

any kind of influence on indiana state as a normal school in that period. i am curious now to find out. >> syracuse, new york. ralph, go ahead. >> caller: yes, i'm a uaw worker from upstate new york. i think the problem was you had at the time, you had eugene debs and socialist labor party and the socialist workers party. then you had sam gompers. of the american federation of labor, and gauompers and debs didn't see eye to eye. that a problem, that they never a unified workers movement in the country. it was a splittered group. that was the problem that he never was able to achieve his goals. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. thank you very much. >> lisa phillips. >> there was a huge split and the caller is right.

this continues to the present day among labor unions with the split between craft unionism which was embodied by the labor union versus industrial unionism which is what debs advocated. he was in a working class movement where you erased the lines that divided skilled workers from unskilled workers. the american federation of labor was composed of very tightly organized craft based unions. whether they are coopers or plumbers or brick layers or that sort of thing. it was a very different kind of approach toward representing working class interests. they did not see eye-to-eye in continuing into the 1930s and '40s and '50s and beyond. >> debs campaigning for president in 1920. during the wilson administration, twice, his attorney general put before him clemency petitions.

why did wilson say no? >> it's a little complicated. wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as a way to clear the air after the war. he had a stroke. he seemed to sort of lose his moral compass. many people felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill that he might make. he heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. it was not just the government that considered debs to be and these others to have crossed the line. debs was the embodiment of that dissent. >> was there an active campaign with lots of money from the american legion and veteran groups like that to keep debs in jail? >> sure. that was one of their primary missions when they organized after world war i. they said this was their priority number one, keep debs in prison. the ku klux klan was forming at this time.

they also considered debs and the other radicals that it was important they stay in prison. there was a lot of pressure on the president and not a lot of political gain in his judgment to release. >> how did he secure an early release? >> well, wilson left office and the process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. people in the amnesty movement were a lot less optimistic about convicting harding because he was a pro-business ruppen who seemed to have less motivation, you know, plenty of socialists who supported wilson. it seems like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of prison. harding campaigned on the idea of returning the country to a pre-war normalcy to stop the tensions. the protest movement to get debs

out of prison was not just the election, but a huge movement. there were petitions gathered on the street of terre haute and massive petition drives. they would have bring the petitions in on the back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. many people from across europe and the united states, george bernard shaw and h.g. wells and h.l. minken and helen keller. many people are involved in this movement to try to get the prisoners out. and i think for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess from wilson. so in the name of normalcy, he waited a little while and then he let debs out of prison. >> not only let him out but invited him to the white house.

>> that's right. >> and debs went? >> debs went, yeah. >> and what do we know about that meeting? >> neither one of them said anything about it. harding said something like, you know, i'm so damn glad to meet you. it was a christmas morning -- christmas afternoon meeting, i guess. debs came out and said harding seems like a very nice man i believe he said that the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric, but i have no intention of doing that. and then he got back on the train and headed to terre haute. >> you're looking at extremely rare footage. i don't know that it's been seen before on tv of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with president -- the president there. he lived until 1926.

we have just about ten minutes left. let's get a couple calls and then we'll talk more about his legacy. ann arbor, michigan, james, go ahead, please. >> caller: hi. is it okay if i have two questions? >> go ahead, james. >> caller: hi. i have no two questions. >> we're going to move on. >> caller: hello? >> james, yes, we can hear you. ask your question, please. let's move on, please. i'm sorry, because our time is short. next up is a call from graham in charleston, south carolina. go ahead. >> caller: good evening. my question, i just want to know what you think, if any, debs movement could exist modern-day america with the development of global capitalism, and then what you think debs would think about the tea party movement that's gone on currently? thank you. >> thanks very much. it's always a tough thing for historians, isn't it, to project what an historical character might think of today. but you want to take a stab at it? >> it needs to be done with real caution. first thing i would say is that global capitalism is not something new. that that was very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and the flow of capital and the worldwide nature of capitalism in debs' own day.

sometimes it seems we overstate the distinctive global nature of the economy that we live in now. as far as the tea party goes, lisa? >> well, he certainly wouldn't have been in agreement with the tea party support of big business. that's the simplest way i can put it. and i don't know -- you know, his message still resonates, i think, with us today. and we're still facing some of the same problems that he was fighting against as a result of workers' wages being driven down by the policies of now global and multinational corporations and not just in the u.s. but worldwide. so we certainly would have a lot to say about the same types of

things that have escalated from his period to today. and i'm sure he would still be against the negative impact of multinational corporations now globally. >> you have a final artifact for us to look at, his cell block keys. >> yes. look at the size of those. >> i know, they're huge. why don't i use the reminder of his prison term to help us kind of finish out our program here with our last six or seven minutes left. how is he viewed by the labor movement today? how do they look back on his time and his contributions? >> well, i just attended a banquet last week put on by the debs foundation where many labor union, trade unions were -- and danny glover was in attendance. and everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. and he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond.

so he certainly resonates here in terre haute and among trade unionists across the country, i would argue. >> as we think about his final years, i was showing you before we started here that "time" magazine, monday, november 1st, 1926, his obituary with the headline "radicals, eugene v. debs." on christmas day, 1921, president harding pardoned a model prisoner. around him he saw his party disintegrating. he felt his strengthening. his speeches seemed almost pathetic. a month ago he went to a sanitarium where he died age 71. what were his final years like after prison, and how important a voice was he in those last years? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly splintered by the war. without success. and that was both a self-inflicted wound because the socialist party itself had a bitter split over communism. and it was a very difficult thing for him. the communists were trying to convince him to join them to be -- you know, he was the country's most famous -- most high-profile and beloved radical, and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. and debs had been very enthusiastic about the bolshevik revolution, but he refused with the headline "radicals, eugene v. debs." around him he saw the socialist party dissent grating. a month ago he died at the age of 71. what were his final years like after prison? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been splintered by the war without success. that was both the self inflicted wound because the socialist party had a bitter split own

communism. it was a very difficult thing for him. the communists were trying to convince him to join them. he was the country's most famous high profile and beloved radical and the communists wanted to have him on board. he refused to take private land he was left with half a party. much of the energy had gone into the communist party at this point. meanwhile, the party had been smashed by legal attacks as well as mob attacks during the war. so he tried to rebuild the party for those years without a whole

lot of success. >> he is buried here in terre haute, indiana, at highland lawns cemetery. we have video of his grave site. we're going to look at that as we listen to manny from new york city. >> caller: yes, hi. my question is what was eugene debs' view on the russian revolution, and did he visit russia at this time, and can you separate socialism from marxism during this time period? thank you very much. >> thanks so much. huge topics and not much time. >> right. he did not visit russia. there was an attempt to get him to go to russia. the bolsheviks considered debs to be an american hero.

and he was, as i said, an admirer of the bolshevik revolution but ultimately felt like the things the russians -- the bolsheviks did in russia were not appropriate for american socialism, that americans, in spite of all he had experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions >> another terre haute caller. it's great to have people locally participating. this is todd. go ahead, todd. >> caller: hi. i'm calling from terre haute. and i'd like to thank you for this program. for lisa who i understand is a member of the eugene v. debs foundation, i'd like her to address debs' continuing legacy of peace, equality and social justice and let people know how they might pursue their interests in debs if they want to know something more about it.

>> certainly. well, you know, in this age of technology, there's a website devoted to the debs foundation. so that's certainly an easy way to access more information about the debs foundation and about what's here in the debs house and about debs' legacy. and you know, the social justice piece is what we call it today. he, as i said earlier, he certainly continues to provide inspiration to working people here in terre haute and throughout the u.s. as they struggle against lowering wages, unemployment, all the things that are plaguing us today. >> this house is open for visitors. how many do you get every year, and how do people visit? >> i don't know the numbers on how many people we have every year, but the museum is open every afternoon of the week. and on saturdays. and you can go to the website and contact karen brown who runs tours of the museum throughout the week. >> we have one minute left. i'm going to turn the floor over to you. >> another great research is the indiana state university special collections has online of an amazing collection of images of debs but also pamphlets and access to his letters and so forth. so that's another great place. >> plug your book as we close