he had lunch somewhere on this floor. we don't really know where. it seems safe to say he saw every room on the first floor and spent most of his time here in this room. here, he met with union general godfrey weitzel. the head of an all black 25th core of the union army of the james. lincoln met with general weitzel in this room and with john campbell. campbell was a former justice of the u.s. supreme court and the assistant for the confederacy he was the only high-ranking general left when lincoln got here. when he got word that campbell wanted to speak with him, he was hoping that campbell would speak to him on authority from jefferson davis to discuss a surrender or possible end to the war that was not the case. when he got here. it was clear, he was speaking for himself trying to get

virginia back into the union as quickly and painlessly as possible. lincoln listened to him. he was a bit disappointed he wasn't here to talk about a surrender of the confederate government or an end to the war. campbell, unlike davis, saw the writing on the wall and knew the war was almost over. >> that was part one of a two-part look at the white house of the confederacy. american artifacts airs every sunday at 8:00 a.m., 7:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern time. now, the contenders. we feature eugene debs, a five-time presidential candidate for the socialist party. this 90-minute program was recorded at debs' home and museum in terre haute, indiana. each sunday, through labor day

weekend, you can watch the contenders here on american history tv on c-span3. >> our featured contender is eugene v. debs, a five-time candidate for president on the socialist ticket and the nation's most celebrated world war i protester. this december, 1921 footage captures him after his return from indiana after a federal conviction stemming from the war protests. tonight, we are in terre haute and the debs home and museum. let me introduce you to earnest free berg, whose book is called "democracy's prisoner." it has been 85 years since debs died, why do we care about him? >> he was one of the most important labor leaders at a crucial time of conflict between labor and capital. he was the central figure in the

socialist movement at a time when it was a viable, growing, and important part of the american political culture. >> is he interesting as a snapshot in time or does he have a lasting legacy? >> like many third-party candidates, he and his fellow socialists managed to move the conversation in important directions that have affected american democracy ever since. in that regard, he is of his time but he is also had a lorng impact on us as well. >> we will have time to delve into some of the more elections later on. of the five bids he made for the white house, are any particularly significant? >> two for very different reasons. the 1912 represents the high watermark of socialism where he got about 6% of the vote. in 1920, he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got

1 million votes while in prison. >> we will learn more as our 90-minute program, the contenders, our look at people that made an attempt at the white house but failed and had an effect on political and american history. we are live tonight from the debs house of museum in terre haute, indiana. eugene v. debs lived in this house with his wife kate. she lived here for years after he died. we will show you more of the house as we continue here. the top floor of this house is an interesting mural. the mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the years of debs' public life and throughout our program we will be showing you aspects of that artwork to help illustrate eugene v. debs story. let me introduce you to our second guest joining us from the second floor in what was debs'

bedroom. now, it is a museum room with a lot of artifacts in it. lisa phillips is a history professor at indiana university. your thoughts on debs' significance to the american story? >> like earnest said, i think his significance has to do with his activity in labor unions, the american railway union and in the socialist party as well. he has had a lasting effect on many of the law that is were passed during the progressive year were as a result of his activist, some of which we still enjoy and he certainly can tell us a lot about his time period through his running for president and through all of his labor union activities as well. >> lisa philips will be showing us some of the artifacts from time to time in the house here. she is also part of the debs' foundation. tell me about the work of the debs' foundation and why you are

involved in it. >> the debs' foundation seeks to keep the debs' legacy alive and what it hopes to do is promote not only the museum but the policies that debs promoted, which is social justice and equality and the rights of workers generally. so it continues to try to live through the spirit of his mission. >> as we turn to your expertise in understanding this house and what you showcase here. can you tell me how this house is financed and who is paid for it and whose care it is under? >> it is paid for by the debs foundation and cared for by dr. charles king and by karen brown, both of whom are here in terre haute and who run tours of the museum on a daily basis. >> to our viewers, in about ten minutes or so, as we always do with these contenders programs, we are going to open up our phone lines and involve you in the discussion. very interested to hear your

questions or comments about eugene v. debs and the turn of the 20th century and that period in american history he represents. let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success at what he did. >> well, many people remember him most of all as a dynamic speaker. this is an era of wonderful stump speakers. he was really the best in that genre. so good he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience. that's how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases. he was just a very charismatic and had the ability. i think he began as a stayed, victorian speaker. as he became more comfortable over the years, he developed a more modern, impromtu style that made a tremendous impact on his audience. >> over your shoulders is debs' library. my understanding is that debs

dropped out of school at age 14. i am curious about his extensive library and how he educated himself. >> he was very much self-taught. he worked very hard at that. he began working in the railroad union, very interested in the literature there. he worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town, always wanted to get more education but had to rely on doing it on his own. miss phillips, how did terre haute shape eugene debs? >> in many ways, mostly through his upbringing here when he was a younger man and a boy and a young man. he always hearkened back to the terre haute of his youth. he thought and invoked it all the time in terms of the harmonious relationships that he said developed in old terre haute between everybody he said could aspire to do something

good in their lives, whether you be a business owner, whether you are a worker but everybody had the chance. he always said in old terre haute to do something and to aspire to improve their lives. that's what he held in the most regard in terms of his upbringing. >> you see that he was interested in politics from what looked like an early age in politics in his house. he made bid for clerk in the town and made a successful bid for the indiana legislature on the democratic ticket. >> yes. >> his early roots, then, were in two-party system. can you talk about that? >> i can say a little bit, which is to say that he ran on the democratic party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether they be business owners, workers. he believed in the party system in that regard. it wasn't until later in the 1880s, 1890s that he felt like the party system through the

democrats and republicans weren't working for the best interest of all the people combined. >> when he sought the white house, what was his intention? did he ever really think that he could win? >> he said very clearly that he had no intention of ever winning. lincoln stefans interviewed him in 1908. he said, what would it be like for you to be president? he said, if the party ever gets close to winning, i would be the last person that would want the job or they would put into the job. he thought of himself more as an evangelist for the cause. he believed very much in democracy but was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers and develop class consciousness and deliver his message very powerfully every power years. >> give us a snapshot of the america that he was dissatisfied with. >> an enormous concentration of capital. that was the big struggle at the time.

many people were worried about the labor problem. many workers felt in the face of this rapid industrialization, that their skills were less valuable, that their wages were being pitted in the national and international market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment. there was an enormous sense that labor was deeply unhappy. for debs, debs turned it around and said, the problem is not labor. the problem is capital. the real problem here is not that workers are unhappy and going on strike. the root problem is that these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. >> socialism was on the rise in europe. how was what the socialists and what debs was trying to do here

different? >> it was similar at first. they considered themselves to be internationalists. essentially, socialism needed to be a worldwide movement and they expected it would be. they felt there were distinctive challenges in america in order to convince workers is to do that, a stronger sense of a working class in europe on which to draw for socialists organizing there. one of the struggles for debs throughout his career was trying to convince workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans, not on the basis of their religious affiliation but to think of themselves as members of a working class. >> how successful were he and his fellow thinkers in convincing the public at the height of its popularity? how much ground do they make? >> it depends on how you measure that. >> his high watermark was 1912. he got 6%, about 1 million

votes. >> never any electoral college votes, right? >> no. but there was a much broader. socialists were much more successful at the lotionle level. there were quite a number of socialist mayors and city officials. there was a very vibrant international socialist society for college students started by jack london. a lot of college campuses about socialism. there was a lively press, some of our best journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press journals like the masses out of greenwich village. socialism was much bigger than counting the votes, i think. >> today in congress, united states sen for bernie sanders of vermont is a socialist. we talked to him about debs' legacy. let's listen to a bit of what he had to say. >> a lot of the ideas he of voe kated, talking about, when people get old, there should be social insurance and retirement benefits for them.

that's what we call social security today. amazingly enough, in the year 2011, there are those same people that hated debs when he was alive that now want to destroy social security. he believed that health care was a right of all people. that battle continues today. i think it is fair to say many of the huge advances made during the '30s under president roosevelt, the great society under lyndon johnson and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention, the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. >> lisa phillips, let me ask you to add your perspectives to the america that he saw and weigh dissatisfied with and ultimately whether or not he saw him testify as anti-american or wanting to change america. >> no, i don't think he saw himself as anti-american at all. i think he saw himself as advocating through his socialist party and labor activity as a kind of american that was more community centered and less driven by big business. in his early days, he wasn't

even anti-capitalist and worked with the railroad companies. it wasn't until the advent of corporate capitalism or big business that he felt as if there had to be a movement against the for-profit motive that continued to bring everyday workers wages down. >> let me ask you. you have something to add to that? >> i agree with lisa. i think one of the things that made deb so powerful was his ability to cast socialism as an american movement. his argument wasn't, this is a revolutionary country in the first place, fought a revolution for democracy. in his lifetime, he experienced the civil war as a revolution. some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists. his argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow wage labor. >> who were his workers? did he include women in his view of it? did he include people other than whites? did he include immigrants?

what was his definition, lisa? >> well, as one of the first industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class, which he believed everyone who was a worker, who earned wages, which was two-thirds of americans by 1890, was a part of, whether they be an immigrant, black, whether they be women. he certainly saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be uplifted in some way, shape, or form. there is controversy still to this day among historians about whether he did enough on behalf of women and african-americans. he had some trouble seeing immigrants, specially chinese and italian immigrants that came over temporarily and worked for very low wages and brought them back to their home countries as part of the same american working class that was driving, trying to fight for higher wages. we had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. certainly, his, as an industrial

movement was one that recognized the rights of all workers regardless of their backgrounds. >> i understand you have one of the artifacts copies of "the jungle" upton sinclair. what's the significance? >> upton sinclair was a member of the socialist part himself and he highlighted in "the jungle" the horrible conditions that meat packers worked in in chicago. what really riled up the country was not only the conditions of the workers that were working in the meat packing industry but also the quality of the processed meat that was coming out of the plant. so he was the one that wrote about rats and people's fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. so he worked. he and debs were supporters of

one another. upton sinclair was able to, like debs, demonstrate the problems with the growing growth of big business. it was upton sinclair's work that led to the creation of the regulation of the food and meat industries, the precursors to the fda. very much of the same mind-set in terms of demonstrating the negative consequences of big business. >> the book actually ends with a scene where he wonders into a socialist meeting and hears a character who is supposed to be debs and making the socialist speech. for upton sinclair, that was supposed to be not food and drug regulations, although he supported those but socialism was the bigger answer. debs is actually right in the book. >> would you tell us the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept and thinking of socialism at that time? >> yes. he was headed the american railway union which had mounted

a successful strike against the great northern railroad company based in minneapolis in 1893. so the aru, as a result of that strike gained thousands and thousands of members with debs as its head. many of those members were part of the pullman palace car company in 1894. they petitioned, they asked the a.r.u. for support when they decided to walk out against george pullman who had dropped their wages by 28%. once their wages were dropped, they wanted to walk out and asked the a.r.u., headed by debs at that point for support. debs was reluctant at first. he thought it was too risky. but the pullman workers had a lot of support, not only within pullman, the town of pullman, which is outside of chicago but also had a lot of support from railway workers all the way from there to st. louis.

they staged what were some of the first boycott or sympathetic strikes along the railway lines. it became national in scope. as a result of that, president , and as a result of that, president grover cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the power of the aru in stopping the transport of goods in especially the u.s. mail along the railways through that corridor. and so grover cleveland got involved in the u.s. -- he sent u.s. troops to open up the railway depots that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the aru. and then debs was ultimately -- didn't call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction, and so he served three months in prison as a result of being convicted of being in contempt of court.

so it was then when he was in prison after the pullman strike that he was introduced to socialist party literature and became a socialist party member, and then staunch advocate. >> i read a description that he left prison a changed man the first time. do you know more about that? >> well, i think he did come to the realization he felt that when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike, when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as could be that the two parties were both working against labor. he didn't go right away to socialism. he was involved in the populous party. and very actively, initialism and when that failed, then the socialist party emerged after that. >> for our two guests, we're going to begin bringing your telephone calls into the mix. we've got the phone numbers and we'll put them on the screen.

we'll mix calls in throughout our 90 minutes here. as we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of where the house is on the campus of indiana state university, so we're going to show you that via a great google map as we listen to our first caller from bath, north carolina. this is steve. hi, steve. you're on the air. >> caller: please compare debs with william jennings bryan. it seems like they are appealing or trying to appeal to the constituency. >> thanks very much. in the election of 1912, his -- william jennings bryan was our earlier profile. how did they compare? already debs was initially an admirer of bryan.

i think they shared some concerns about reform. i think the crucial difference is that debs was really a revolutionary. he was not only interested in reform. reform was necessary. but he felt that something much greater was needed, that there needed to be an end to capitalism and public ownership as a means of production and that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryan's campaign. >> the election was his first try, 1900. he got .6% of the popular vote that year. so you know what his early appeals were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids? >> the real challenge for debs was to try to knit together socialists coming from very different positions. the strongest hot beds, socialism was oklahoma.

started to develop these -- in chicago and milwaukee to radical bohemians in san francisco and gre greenwich village. so the struggle was to knit together the people that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. but we're coming at this from very, very different positions. so it took a while to build the apparatus. >> another election, which involved william jennings bryan. it looked like debs was beginning to understand some early marketing, because he had some campaign tactics like the red train special and the red special band. can you tell us a little bit

more about that? >> 1908 was a critical year because of the popularity of the socialist party and because of the strength of labor unions and the american federation of labor and other labor unions in this period. so his message appealed to increasingly more people from diverse amounts of background. the red special would have been a good unifying kind of sim billion to use to unite what were very disparate groups of people who were either working on farms or in urban areas. so it meant to his supporters kind of a challenge to big business, a challenge to capitalism. they would have called it big business or monopolies in that period. that's what red would have indicated in the 1908 election.

>> next caller, randy. welcome. >> caller: thank you. my father actually voted for eugene debs in his election. the only thing, as i went through school through primary grades of school through high school, we never heard of eugene b. debs. and it seems like one of the things that is really lacking in our education system is labor history, the fact that when people talk about social security, unemployment insurance, and a lot of people are surprised that people died for those benefits. they were not gifts. people were killed and beaten and jailed for the right to unemployment insurance and the eight-hour workday. with the neofascists trying to push the republican party more to the right, but to reestablish that message now more than ever, because now i think we're in a critical part of history where if we're not careful, we could

be going towards fascism. i think that is more important than ever. >> a question for you, randy, before you go? i'm asking you, did you talk with your grandfather about debs? >> caller: yes, i did. >> which election did he actually vote for him? >> the 1916 election, i believe. >> that would be 1920. >> 1916 was the year he sat out, actually. thank you, randy. appreciate it. first of all, why did he sit out in 1916? >> he was in ill health. i think he only ran in 1920 because of the unusual circumstances. he felt it was time to pass on the baton of the movement to somebody else.

he didn't feel up to the red special -- when he was on that red special train, he was giving 15 speeches a day and he would come back exhausted and collapse, i guess, in one of the bedrooms upstairs and spend weeks trying to recover. 1916, he decided to sit out. >> randy's comments were probably music to your ears. you teach at the college level. but i'm wondering what you're thinking about teaching of labor history to america's students today. >> oh, of course i would say that it should be taught more than it is. i think that there's so much more we can learn about working people, about all of us who work every day and try to make ends meet and to value them by teaching their history is very important. it kbifs us a different perspective to fight for some of

the rights. we need to be careful not to take for granted the benefits we receive as a result of them. >> in the early parts of the 20th sen20 th sen 20th sench century, was there a middle class in? >> of course. it actually generated a much larger middle class. >> so the people he represented, would it been part of that middle class? >> there were a large number of middle class supporters, people who went to deb's meetings expecting to see them be just working class people. often surprised to find that they were actually many of them, the most important writers and political thinkers that we can think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party or at least very sympathetic to their