>> would it have been dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the united states, where the authorities watching you in any sort of way? >> well, no, i would say it was not. there were particular incidents to be involved as a socialist in particular strike environments. there was some conflict over the rights of soap box speakers. the socialists were big believers of bringing their message to the streets through soap box oratory. but in terms of persecution of socialists, they were very much a part of the political conversation in this period.

>> when did people start to change? >> it started the conversation in 1908 and 1912, teddy roosevelt called debs one of our most undesirable citizens. there was a sense that the forces of moderate opinion needed to push back rhetorically. it wasn't really until world war i that the gloves came off and socialism was physically and legally assaulted. >> next is a caller named cal watching us in mid town, manhattan. >> i'm loving this series. thank you for the series. fascinating history. just off the bat there are a couple things that strike me. hopefully your guests can comment on one or the other. one is the grievances against growing capitalism, strangling

the rights of the people, as it was thought of then as it is now. we have occupy wall street that has some of the same grievances. also the idea of the organization, the mechanics of the movement. i don't know if you're aware of this, but occupy wall street is receiving a lot of krifl because they're making a deliberate attempt not to have a specific platform or agenda or list of grievances. maybe you can talk about the mechanics as debs might have understood it and who might have inspired him with. thank you for the series. >> all right. thanks, cal. let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism. >> his grievances against capitalism were it was monopoly

that he had the most trouble with and that's why he thought that an overthrow of corporate capitalism was in order. his grievances against them was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few and controlling what he argued early on was the combinations of corporations and business owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy and that's what he was clearly against. he advocated labor unions to work together to break the monopolies that corporate entities had been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy at the time. in that way, people argue that our time period is very similar to dubs' time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. >> the mechanics that he used to

organize them. >> i think that's a very interesting question. it is the case that socialists, one of the things that made debs and socialism work in a way that it has not worked in the country since is their talent for organizing, their willingness to attend a lot of meetings and to develop a separate independent press. in a way that sounds very modern on the media of the day. very much believed that there was no way people were going to hear their side of the story if they didn't create their own alternative press. debs was the exciting person who blew into town and rallied the troops. socialism really relied on much more of a grass roots organizing process.

a lot of attempts to win at the local level. it was not impossible to get on the city council. >> this was even before radio began. politics for americans meant what in their lives? was it an activity to fill the evenings in ways that we don't really appreciate today? >> sure. it was starting to fade in this time period, but -- >> and also socials. now we have lots of media in our lives. there were many more news sources. labor unions had their own press. >> while we're talking about media, lisa phillips, will you talk about audio publication for

which debs wrote frequently called the appeal to reason? >> sure. my ear piece came out for just a second. this is the appeal to reason right here. it became the journal or the newspaper of the socialist party in 1901. and so it is one of those publications, many newspapers of which would have existed and did exist in that time period, where people would read and find out as much information as they could. it was upton sinclair, whose book we just showed earlier, was first serialized. the first time it was published in the appeal to reason. debs wrote in it. jack london wrote in it. many authors of the period would have written, which was after 1901. >> i'd like to very briefly read

to you from a statement that debs made after the 1912 election, he sent it by telegraph to be published in the appeal to reason. results of the 1912 election. he wrote from return at hand, it is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote. now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing iffer the next. weaver the only ones who came out with colors flying. this virile young giant will make history in the next few years. the democrats will demonstrate their utter impotency and thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust. >> that was a bad prediction. the soeshlgist party started to decline right after that election, at least in terms of membership. one of the main reasons was the wilson administration did just

the opposite of what debs predicted there. it brought in a slate of reforms. eight hour controls for eight hours a day for railroad workers. some regulation of the banking system. some gestures towards the right for unions to organize. only small steps toward what the socialists wanted, but certainly enough to win a lot of voters. >> let's take our next telephone call from courtland, new york. this is sharon on the line. sharon, go ahead, please. >> caller: i want to thank c-span for this wonderful series. i'm wondering if your guests might comment on his early likes, his formative years and what his parents did for a living. thank you very much. >> thank you. would you like to take that?

>> i'm exactly sure i can remember what debs' father did for a living. i know he was a great idealist and debs himself, his middle name is after victor hugo and the sort of idealism of the french novelist was a big part of debs' upbringing. >> family french extraction? >> i was just remembering that debs' father was a processer of pork in a manufacturing plant. he couldn't do that work, so there is reminiscences of his being depressed as a worker. they had two small children and was pregnant with eugene debs, and so they opened a small grocery in the front of their house. he went on to become a successful grocer.

he had had experience with the family business, and so that enabled him to do that work. >> why did he have to drop out of school at age 14? >> i think it wasn't common for people to finish high school and he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become a part of. his very first job was a panlt scraper for the local railroad there was coming through, it was owned by chaun si rose and then by william mckeon. >> can either of you tell us

about his marriage? >> that was always a source of controversy in the movement. he was deeply loyal to kate debs, but it was pretty clear that she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congressman and not as a socialist. she often spoke in favor of socialism favorably, but not enthusiastical enthusiastically. probably would have been happier if he had not pursued that life. debs was back in tarahote mostly to collapse upstairs and try to recover before he headed out on another campaign. >> so kate spent a lot of time in the living room where we are

right now in the house of terre haute, indiana. >> with down and out railroad workers knocking on the door. and hoping they could see their hero. >> did they ever have any children? >> no. >> you said he traveled extensively and she chose never to do that, or we don't know that she was ever invited to go along? >> let's take our next phone call in terre haute, indiana. tom. here we are in your home town. have you been to the debs house? >> caller: no, i have not. i work two blocks away. i have no excuse for that. thank you for a fantastic series. i would like to make a quick comment because there's so many people across america who would love to be calling. i lucked out to do it. i want to say this. when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers. i want to make one point. i lived in colorado and i worked with westinghouse. i called on the mines of

colorado. i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25. i would pass a town called ludlow. i would ask miss phillips if she knows anything about the ludlow massacre and i'm not sure when it happened. i'm sure debs was alive at the time. i would just hang up now and please ponder what i said. you moguls of america who -- we need jobs and we need them now. please, could you tell us a little bit about the ludlow massacre in colorado? thank you. >> the ludlow massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blamed on the striking workers or the protesting workers at the time, whether they be miners or whether they be protesting for

their rights. what happened in ludlow, which happened in haymarket and happened in other riotous incidents where there would be federal troops or authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers and many of them would be killed. i can't remember how many people died in the ludlow massacre, but haymarket and other riots in homestead strike, several people would be killed. then the unions or the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot and for protesting. that caused a lot of -- that was part of the reason of the precursor of the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed in part for the haymarket riot which caused the deaths of several people. the ludlow massacre similarly, was an incident where striking workers were killed and where

people were blamed, the workers themselves or strikers themselves were blamed for that. to get to the caller's original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent employer. he had been friends with people in terre haute like william mckeen who owned part of the railroad that came through terre haute, who he supported when they had the best interested of terre haute in mind. it was when they brought in what mckean called and others called heavy capitalists and they were making relationships with people out east that debs started to break his ties with smaller business owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. it wasn't small business that he originally was against. it was the for-profit motive that drove the small business men to become business moguls

and create conditions that caused the ludlow massacre and haymarket riot among workers who -- they didn't think any other choice but to strike. >> were there socialists all across the united states or was it a regional phenomenon? >> no, all across the united states. here in the midwest and out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. big bill haywood was a founding member of it. mostly out west, oklahoma, the midwest and east in places like new york, were the strongholds of the socialist party. they drew support from rural americans and farms being affected negatively by

capitalism, from urban areas like chicago, new york, from western coal miners, so they drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively affected by the rising of this corporate kind of capitalism. >> you had a thought? >> i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, debs, i didn't think believed it was possible at this point. rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to small-scale capitalism, socialists were arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. the important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than by individuals for private gain. this was a more radical proposition as a way to solve the problem. there were plenty of people who were seriously engaged with trying to figure out how to soften the hard edges of the industrial revolution that was going on. mark andrew carnegie, most notably, with his gospel of wealth, said they needed to be more benevolent moguls. debs said that's not the

problem, essentially. we need to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. >> we are profiling eugene v. debs at his home in terre haute, indiana, in our series "the contender" where 14 men tried for the presidency and lost but changed american history. we have 90 minutes to learn more about his period of time and his five runs from the presidency from 1900 through 1920. for our two guests here in terre haute, our next caller is from outside washington, this is john. hi, john. >> caller: wonderful program, thanks for c-span. i was intrigued by your guest's comment that teddy roosevelt said that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in america or something to that affect. when teddy roosevelt was known as a trust buster and breaking up standard oil. it seems they have some things in common.

i wonder if your guests could comment on that. >> ernest? >> good question. sure. roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debsian program and adopt it. debs with his interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people democratically, that would run undermine one of the pillars of american democracy and private property and free enterprise. on the other hand, he was well aware of the growing concern among workers and the middle class about the problems of big business. so he basically, roosevelt argued it was important to take the good ideas, the things we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways we have been talking ability and

to adopt those. these became an important part of his progressive party platform and part of the reform agenda for the wilson administration. he said, debs wants to tear down in the spirit of hate by stirring up class envy workers against their masters in a sense. what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way without socialism. >> lisa phillips, you have more to add? >> i think too, i might be remembering this wrong, but i don't think teddy roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the a.r.u. with pullman. that seemed dangerous to presidents who were in charge of making sure the country ran smoothly. anytime you saw a case where there was a strike fermented by by a national liker union that disresulted the goods and something as crucial as the mail in that time period, that, too,

would have put teddy roosevelt and eugene debs on the opposite side of the divide there in terms of how able you should be to top business from functioning. >> another topic all together to understand socialist thinking in the united states in the early 20th century. what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion? >> a very large number of socialists were religious. especially in the south in oklahoma and texas. a strong party there. a very strong movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity. many of those were supporters of debs even though debs was a believer in the most tenuous sense. he considered churches to be of the enemy. part of the apparatus to oppress workers, particularly the

catholic church. he was very critical. claimed never to go into a church. but many christians felt that he in his sort of humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said i don't know what he believes, but he is the most christ-like person that i know. his compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. this is an important distinction between the debsian socialist movement and the movement that comes after that. not everybody in the socialist movement was a believer, by any means, but it was something where that was an important part of the mix. >> if you signed your name to a card that said i'm a member of the socialist party in this time period, what did that mean your core beliefs were?

>> the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and the owning class. this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessarily next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, i think, a necessary next step to realize or to protect the principles of the american revolution. to protect the dignity of the individuals embodies in their ability to participate equally in their economy. >> and very much thought of themselves as patriots. we touched on that theme before. >> yes. >> hearkening back to -- he spoke to lincoln and some of the founding fathers in his writing, so he really saw himself as an extension of the early roots of american history? >> defining american -- the important movers and shakers in american history as being radicals.

history is driven forward by people. he would point back to jesus, to socrates, wendell phillips. that history starts out with an idea that seems deeply unpopular, but in retrospect is the necessary next step for moral evolution. >> we have a hoosier for the next call. this is chris on the line. welcome to the conversation. >> caller: thanks for having the conversation. it is a great surprise to see on television tonight. i wonder if your guests would be able to comment on debs' relationship with the industrial workers of the world and with general strike in seattle. >> all right. lisa phillips. the i.w.w. >> debs was a founding member of the i.w.w. which started in 1905. the i.w.w. was a clearly an industrial union movement.

it was juxtaposed against the federal labor which is a craft skilled labors union. it was like what he promoted with socialism, a moving among a work class of people. its boundaries are not as nationalistic, and it's thought to work with workers in other countries, spain, france, italy. this never came to be, but they saw themselves as part of a worker's movement among workers fighting capital world wide rather than just in the united states. it fit in with debs interpretation to promote the rights of workers not only in the united states, but other places as well. >> was he affiliated with them throughout his life? >> no, there was a split within it's kind of complicated.

there was a split in the i.w.w. over -- the socialist party had -- there was a split within the socialist party that affected the i.w.w., so he remained very much supported the i.w.w. but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist party leaders, i think it was morris hillquist took -- and big bill haywood took over the i.w.w., brought in different divisions than debs had in mind. >> was the i.w.w. the wobbly? >> yes. one of the most important breaks was over the issue of violence or sabotage. the wobblies argued. this was a tough bunch in a tough environment working in the mines and lumber fields.

they argued there were times when in order to advance their cause, they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence in order to fight back. >> did debs agree with that? >> debs did not agree with that. he wasn't a pacifist. he recognized you needed violence at times, but advocating violence was not appropriate for american democracy. in fact, workers always lost. when they tried violence, most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. >> next up is minneapolis. this is ken. hi, ken. >> caller: hello. this is ken in minneapolis. thank you, c-span, for the series. i work in public radio and a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about debs and media. in new york city, there is or was a famous radio station wevb.

the name for eugene v. debs it debuted in the early 1920s. it was the first non-commercial listener supported radio stations. given debs' name and call letters, i wonder if he had any involvement in the radio station. >> thanks. his demise was in 1926. radio just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. did he have a connection? >> as far as i know, he had no direct correction to it. it is a homage to him. >> we have 35 minutes left already. this program has gone by quickly. the question for you about debs if you can answer this. if he were to walk into this room, we're surrounded by images of him all over the house. it is interesting how many you have preserved here in the foundation. can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was? was he slight? give us a personal glimpse of him if you can.

>> as far as i know, i think he was 6'2" or 6'3". ernest, i'm not sure if that is correct. >> that's about right. >> i think he was always very thin. he was very lanky. you can see that in the pictures of him. he was that way from his youth on. so he was a commanding figure, but he was not burly. i guess i would say. >> you told me he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fads of the days, more early holistic health. can you tell us about that? >> he was often ill. it was hard to pin down the problem was. some biographers suggested it was a nervous exhaustion from the campaigns, the stress he was under. he would retreat and try to recover and he would experiment