with walnuts and sleeping with his head oriented to the north. he would often write back to his brother suggesting these were working out great for him. >> switching gears. in our time, as the nation began to march toward world war i, what happened to the labor movement as all of the international political turmoil in the country was making the decisions about his role in that? >> sure. when the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were very determined to keep out of the war. and there were isolationists, especially in the midwest and south, who said god gave us the atlantic ocean for a reason. that is not to get involved in the european war. the many large immigrant groups in the country were deeply divided over the conflict overseas but didn't want to participate, helping the other

side. so there was a strong push for neutrality, initially, until things escalated out of control. wilson was elected for a second term. campaigning that he had kept the country out of war, that he was a negotiator for peace. just weeks after being inaugurated for a second term, he started to move the country to war. >> i want to show our viewers your book. we are now getting into your subject area "democracy's prisoners, eugene v. debs." the great war and the rise to dissent. in 1917, congress passed a law about the speech about the war. would you tell the viewers what the law was? >> it is called the espionage act. it was never used to convict any spies during the war. theres were german spies. much of the law dealt with that. there were provisions that allowed the government to have enormous control over the dissent.

the post master was given the power to ban any publication that was -- anything that the post master considered to be not supportive of the war, not patriotic. anybody deemed to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was libel to have a $10,000 fine and 10 to 20 years in prison. >> the first amendment challenge all over this. did the supreme court ever hear the law? >> sure. debs was one of the important test cases. there were three test cases that came up about 1,200 people were convicted under the espionage act. >> and were sent to prison. >> and were sent to prison. the supreme court unanimously supported it at that time. >> debs began to be anti-war at

what point? >> he was -- as i said earlier, he wasn't a pacifist. there are some wars, a class struggle in which it might make sense at some point to take up arms. and he felt that the civil war was an appropriate use of arms. he considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument was this was a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were going to benefit, the old phrase, a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. there was lots of money to be make in the war, but the working people were the ones who were going to suffer. that was the socialist position. when the war broke out and when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered in st. louis a few days later and passed a proclamation vowing they were going to fight the war rhetorically in every possible way they could and fight the draft actively.

a number of socialists broke from the party at that point. upton sinclair felt was if that was the wrong move. others worried that party would be destroyed by this and labeled un-american. but debs and quite a number of the party decided it was a stand they needed to take. >> i'll take a call from reid in nashville, tennessee and then ask you about what the popular view in america was about the draft at that time. reid, your question, please. >> caller: how are you? thank you for your discussion tonight. it's very wonderful. i want to take -- >> thanks for watching. >> caller: yes. unfortunately, socialism and debs and the idea of the key word of essential planning. that would mean there is a group who involved themselves in the central planning of the society and that leads itself to a small

group who define how citizens should behave. i want to say that socialism, although wonderful in its ideals and communism ideals and all that, does not truly exist. i believe that james madison described it correctly. unfortunately, we are in competition with one another. that is what satisfies. that leads to individual freedom. central planning leads to a small group, which today, reflects today, as we want someone whose central plans in society who benefits and who doesn't benefit. it leads to someone in a small group calling who wins and who loses. thank you. thank you again. >> thanks, reid. lisa phillips. comments? >> that was not too far off of debs' position. believe it or not because what he was arguing is that the central planners of his day were these large business owners, the

carnegies, rockefellers, vanderbilts who had a lot of political power influence and in essence through monopoly formation, were the central planners of the economy in that period. he would have been with you on that. but he just wanted there to be a more diverse group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. he was against the central planning done in the period by wealthy by that point, americans and business owners. >> in the interest of time here, we were talking about the draft. i want to go on to his position on the draft. his famous speech in canton, ohio. to share with our viewers, a speech that ended up having debs arrested. to get a flavor of it. hub is here is one of two

quotes. who shed their blood to furnish their kormss never had a voice in declaring war or making peace. yours is not the reason why, yours but to do and die, if war is right let it be declared by the people. when he made that speech, did he know he was going to go to jail? >> he had to know that it was likely. he knew there were federal agents and stenographers in the audience taking down the speech. i think he was -- he gave a number of speeches along the same lines up to that point and had not been arrested. he said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say. i'm not going to say anything i don't believe, but i have to be careful. i know i'm being watched. the audience fully understood the situation. he spent much the time watching saying his colleagues were already in prison and if they're guilty, i'm guilty. >> what was his trial like, a big national event? >> yes, it certainly was.

it was in cleveland. debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. his lawyers, you know, hoped to get him off on a technicality and also were interested in making a strong free speech argument in his defense. he felt as if the system was rigged. that the judiciary was in the pockets of big business and it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism by laying out his life's work. >> and he ultimately was sentenced to ten years. you said the terms were up to 20? >> yes. it was hard to say he got a break. he was an older man at that point and not in good health. when he went off to prison, many people assumed if he did not get out, he would die in prison.

>> we have about 20 minutes left. we're going to take a couple calls and talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. to oklahoma and donna. >> caller: hello. i'm so happy to hear this program. i can't tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. a little comment about ludlow, colorado. i was a very good friend of a woman who is my mother's age. she talked about her parents being part of what happened in ludlow. she told me because i was going a road trip with my son to look for a sign just north of trinidad along the road, and all it will say is "this is the place." that is the place where my friend terry's mother and father ran down a dry river bed and shots fired all around them running for their lives. the second thing i would like to say is a little something about

upton sinclair. i lived in san pedro, california for several years. the land of dock workers. upton sinclair was arrested in san pedro for reading the constitution to the dock workers. that began the southern california aclu. the third comment is i have moved back to oklahoma. i have been gone for about 50 years. i lived here as a teenager. but i went to a labor rally in support of the wisconsin public employees and was on the state capitol steps. a friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin. she told me it was the oklahoma state motto. it was from a socialist desire. it is labor conquers all.

now we are the reddest state in the union which is a ironic thing. >> thank you so much for your comments, we'll let that stand and take a call from eric in los angeles. go ahead. >> caller: this is eric. i also am enjoying the program. i think eugene debs tried to keep us to our ideals. my question is about joe paraman. he was a social christian socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. and later involved with the trial of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. joe was one of the attorneys with clarence darrow. i know debs defended in print the mcnamaras. i wondered if they could comment about that. thank you.

>> lisa phillips, is this a period of debs' life you could fill us in on? >> i don't know enough about it. i do know that i failed to mention earlier that clarence darrow was a big part of debs' defense in 1894 after he was accused of convicted of contempt of court after the pullman strike. i don't know enough about joe paraman to comment. on his involvement with debs or the mcnamara brothers. >> debs did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building, which was the los angeles times building, which was the center of the tremendous anti-labor sentiment at that point. he believed the mcnamaras were innocent. much of his defense of them was really based on believing this was a false charge.

>> his second sentencing was under the espionage act. he made a speech at his sentencing. one of his quotes is among eugene v. debs' most famous. it is i said then and i said now. that while there is a lower class, i am in it. and while there is a criminal element, i am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, i am not free. he went to prison and in 1920, campaign, he decided to take part in. can you tell me about how he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta? how did he do that? >> he was not allowed -- it was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was a seditionist being jailed, but he was also a legitimate candidate from a legitimate legal party. they showed up, presented him with flowers. allowed him to give a speech, the socialists did. the government allowed him to

campaign by submitted eight 500-word letters to the press over the course of the campaign. somebody who had been on the red special and giving hundreds of speeches was spending the campaign relying on his party to go out and spread the word. >> lisa phillips, you have one of his campaign buttons. can you show it to us? >> here it is. >> it is very small. what does it say? >> it says "convict number 9653 for president." one of the most famous campaign buttons for president in u.s. history. one of the only like it. >> he managed to garner nearly 1 million votes from inside the federal penitentiary. how did he do that? >> he did that because he had such a national following. it was 1920.

he had been in the national newspapers for several years. people knew of his message, the i.w.w. continued to support him. labor unions continued to support him. despite the fact that he was accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military during world war i which was extremely problematic, he still had a following among workers among trade unionists, among socialists who believed in his message. he did so because of his reputation by then. >> what were the themes of the 1920 campaign? >> many of the socialists leaders and debs a little less, his campaign said this is a vote for free speech. this is an opportunity for all americans, whether you are a socialist or not, to cast a vote in protest of the wilson administration. debs embodied at that point all

of the prisoners and all of the actions that have been done by mob violence, by state laws, by the postal censor to squash. pacifists of all kinds. had been rounded up. by 1920, many americans who, you know, in the grip of war fever had thought maybe that was a good idea. started to reconsider that. they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the american civil liberties union in trying to advance their rights. there were only about 100,000 socialists, actually far less than that at this point. i think the number is something in the 20,000 to 30,000 dues paying members. he got 1 million votes. some of those people were socialists, but i think a lot of the people were voting for free speech. >> terre haute, indiana. this is dave. hi, dave. >> caller: hello, how are you

all? >> great, thanks. here we are in your town. do you have a question about one of your famous citizens? >> caller: i do. i'm a graduate of the indiana state university. the same university that you all are sitting on. what was eugene v. debs impact on the university at the time if any? was indiana a normal school and a school of educators? did he take part in the development of the university? >> thanks very much. lisa phillips, do you know? >> i don't know. that's a great question. i don't know if eugene debs had any kind of influence on indiana state as a normal school in that period. i am curious now to find out. >> syracuse, new york. ralph, go ahead. >> caller: yes, i'm a uaw worker from upstate new york. i think the problem was you had at the time, you had eugene debs and socialist labor party and

the socialist workers party. then you had sam gompers. of the american federation of labor, and gompers and debs didn't see eye to eye. that a problem, that they never a unified workers movement in the country. it was splinter groups. that was the problem that he never was able to achieve his goals. i wonder if your guests could comment on that. thank you very much. >> lisa phillips. >> there was a huge split and the caller is right. this continues to the present day among labor unions with the split between craft unionism which was embodied by the labor union versus industrial unionism which is what debs advocated. he was in a working class movement where you erased the lines that divided skilled

workers from unskilled workers. the american federation of labor was composed of very tightly organized craft based unions. whether they are coopers or plumbers or brick layers or that sort of thing. it was a very different kind of approach toward representing working class interests. they did not see eye-to-eye in continuing into the 1930s and '40s and '50s and beyond. >> debs campaigning for president in 1920. during the wilson administration, twice, his attorney general put before him clemency petitions. why did wilson say no? >> it's a little complicated. wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as a way to clear the air after the war. he had a stroke. he seemed to sort of lose his moral compass. many people felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill that

he might make. he heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. in prison. the ku klux klan was on merging at this point and they also considered debs and the on the record radicals, and it was important they stay in prison. there was a lot of pressure on the president to -- and not a lot of plirt call gain in his judgment to release -- >> then how did he secure an early release?

>> well, wilson left office and the process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. people in the amnesty movement were a lot less optimistic about convicting harding because he was a pro-business republican who seemed to have less motivation, you know, plenty of socialists who supported wilson. it seems like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of prison. harding campaigned on the idea of returning the country to a pre-war normalcy to stop the tensions. the protest movement to get debs out of prison was not just the election, but a huge movement. there were petitions gathered on the street of terre haute and across the country. massive petition drives. they bring the petitions in on a back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. many, you know, people from

across europe and the united states george bernard shall and h.d. wells and helen keller -- many people involved to try to get the prisoners out. for harding, he had no interest in inheriting this mess from wilson. so in the name of normalcy, he waited a while and let debs out of prison. >> not only let him out, but invited him to the white house? >> that's right. >> and debs went? >> debs went. yeah. >> what do we know about that meeting? >> neither one of them said anything about it. harding said something like, i'm so damn glad to meet you. it was a christmas morning. christmas afternoon meeting, i guess. debs came out and said harding seems like a nice man. i believe he said, you know, the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric. i have no intention of doing that. he got back on the train and headed to terre haute.

>> you're looking at some extremely rare footage. i don't know that it's been seen before on tv of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with president -- the president there. you're on the air, go ahead, please. >> caller: hi, i have two questions. >> go ahead, james. >> caller: hi, have two questions. hello? >> james, yes, we can hear you, ask your question, please. let's move on, our timing short. next up is a call from graham in charleston, south carolina, go ahead. >> caller: good evening. my question, i want to know what you think, if any, debs' movement could exist modern-day

america with the development of global capitalism. then what do you think debs would think about the tea party movement that's going on currently. thanks so much. >> that's always a tough thing for historians, isn't it, to project what they'd think of today. >> it needs to be done with real caution. first thing i would say is global capitalism is not something new, that that was very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and the flow of capital in the worldwide nature of capitalism in debs' own day. sometimes it seems we overstate the distinctive global nature of the economy we live in now. as far as the tea party, lisa? >> he certainly wouldn't have been in agreement wednesday the

tea party support of big business, that's the simple way i can put it. his message resonates with us today. he certainly faces the problems he was fighting against as work workers' about the sames being driven down, not only in the u.s. but worldwide. he'd have a lot to say about the same types of things that have escalated from his period to today. i'm sure he would still be against the negative immakt of multi national corporations now globally. >> you have a final artifact for to us look at, his cell block keys. look at the size of those. >> i know, they're huge. >> and why don't i use those reminders of those prison term to have you help us finish out our program here, six or seven minutes left. how is he viewed by the labor movement today?

how do they look back on his time and his contributions? >> well, i just attended a banquet last week put on by the debs foundation where many labor union, trade unionists, danny glover was in attendance. everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. and he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. so he certainly resonates here in terra haute and among trade unionists across the country, i would argue. >> as we think about his final years, i was showing you before we started here the "time" magazine, monday, november 1st, 1926 obituary with the radicals, "eugene v. debs." christmas day 1921 president harding pardoned a prisoner. wind him he felt his strength ebbing, his speeches seem almost

pathetic, his pen has lost its throb, a month ago he went to a sanitarium where he died age 71. what were his final years like after prison and how important a voice was he? >> he spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly discipline derred by the war. without success. and that was -- that was both a self-insplikted wound because the socialist party had a bitter split over communism. the communists were trying to convince him to join them, to be -- he was the country's most famous, most high-profile and beloved radical, and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. and debs had been very enthusiastic about the bow sha vehicle revolution. but he refused ultimately to

sign on with the communists, objecting to the idea of a dictatorship of the prola tair accurate and objecting to some of the methods of the bolsheviks. much of the energy had gone into the communist party at this point, meanwhile the party had been smashed by legal attacks as well as mob attacks during the war. so he tried to rebuild the party for those years without a whole lot of success. >> he is buried here in terra haute, indiana, we have video of his grave site and we're going to look at that as we listen to many from new york city. >> caller: my question is what will eugene debs' view on the russian revolution, and did he visit russia at this time, and can you separate socialism from marxism during this time period? thank you very much. >> thanks so much. huge topics and not much time. >> right.

he did not visit russia. there was an attempt to get him to go to russia. the bolsheviks considered debs to be an american here hero and he was as i said an admirer of the bolshevik revolution. but ultimately felt like the things the russians -- the bolsheviks did in russia were not appropriate for american socialism. that americans, in spite of all he'd experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions, he still believed in american democracy and still believed that the way forward for american workers was to organize in unions and to support the social its party. >> we have another terra haute call. this is todd. go ahead, todd. >> caller: hi. i'm calling from terra haute. and i'd like to thank you for this program. for lisa, who i understand is a member of the eugene v. debs foundation, i'