ship. i know support student veterans as executive director of student veterans of america. we have over 450 chapters assisting veterans on a daily basis. this gives perspective to veterans as they reintegrate with the civilian workforce. as you are likely aware, we recently conducted an annual review and found that 26 for-profit schools were creating fake chapters to recruit future student veterans. we revoked their membership and that provides the framework for

our testimony this afternoon. it reflects highly on the subcommittee and it is being paid to addressing and resolving the challenges based on those being targeted in the higher education system. student veterans of america strongly supports any action and protects any family and benefits and any school that attempts to gain from the post 9/11 gi bill, without providing outstanding education now comes to the student veterans mouth be vigoro vigorously prosecuted. we know from our extensive experience with this population that there is too much bad or misleading population out there. requiring schools to disclose

accurate information and levels the playing field and enables student veterans to make level decisions. this is common police station in most reputable schools and those institutions that do not offer this must do so imimmediately. sva strongly supports outcome measures and graduation rates. this information is also critical to effective congressional oversight. we were are concerned that it will be lost without rretro act efforts. given the amount of federal

dollars being made available. it is essential to create a centralized complaint center to raise legitimate concerns and sva supports uniformed policies. we would like to take this opportunity to call for an amendment in the 90/10 rule. common sense dictates that schools that are required to receive no more than 90% of their income should not be able to skirt their responsibility to

benefits. thank you for this opportunity and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you. i think we are going to -- i'll take five minutes to ask questions and then we'll do a vote and come back and finish up questions. the first question, i'd like to ask, what additional data should be a+? . >> thank you for that question.

>> there are some basic items and some of these have to do with unique veterans services. the total veterans beneficiaries on campus. that includes service members and dependants who are eligible for benefits. and one of those is, is there a better metric than the graduation right to a non traditional -- the graduation rate is irrelevant. neither of us are considered successful graduates through the

gi bill. so, we're kicking around ideas as to what would be a better metric. expanding the cohort. >> i wanted to add to this the majority isn't useful to those that want to spend consumer dollars. we need to figure out according to the department of education,

we need to figure out how to figure to count that metric. this is more about data liberation and putting it in a tool that empowers consumers on how to spend their dollars. >> when you frame the argument like that, it becomes a lot clearer. if i can figure out what every one wants within five square blocks, i should be able to figure it out. >> can you tell us what data could be helpful? is could we make it a better tool that is useful for veterans? >> i think how many students started a program versus how many students entered.

>> how many students entered mechanical degree and how long it took them. that is kind of available. but it is not broken down by program and it is hard to sin they size. it is less about finding new data. >> and that is the key. if you don't have something to present to consumers that they can read. and it is simple, then the data you are collecting is useless. >> it is not only difficult but also highly in consistent among the data sets. you will see i talked about a liberal arts college.

you find this all over, within the same data set, the data is inconsistent, as a consumer, if you pick out the core data, how much am i going to go into debt? is how many people finished the degree, then you can pull that out of college navigator and make it for consumers. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to get you all on the record. each one of these veteran's organizations were signatories to this vil bill of rights that proposed earlier? am i correct?

and you still stand by that? i want to follow up on your last point, i think sometimes when we talk about educational policy, it is frequently divorced from the real world. look at myself, i started at iowa state university and switched to civil engineering and switched to journalism and then graduated with a degree in political science. you could argue and the point is that i was able to take that degree and go on and do something and find employment. to me, that is the definition of a successful college education. i'm less concerned about what we enter in and what we exit in, are we getting students the

value we need to give them the ability to have a college degree and an opportunity to earn income and take care of themselves and their families. to me that is the pro cus focus we should be talking about. but i'm interested in knowing what employment was obtained and the correlation between the two. and what degree resulted in the workforce and whether you have somebody with a liberal arts degree counting cars on a highway. to me, that has impact on how we get the most bang for our buck on these dollars. you mentioned two questions. what are the outcomes needed to

make sound choices. and you think you should be part of those outcomes? >> i think reporting outcomes that are in the web bill in the senate as well as the murray bill is a good list that somebody would need to use. >> pick four schools and do the comparison feature and go side-by-side. you'll find that the data points get severely reduced and some schools are reporting data that is a little bit suspect and doesn't quite match up.

when you do the comparison you are looking at a truncated version of it that doesn't give me any use as a consumer. i'm not an 18-year-old going to find myself. i found myself getting shot at in iraq. >> there is a new group of men and women who are entering the armed forces who are getting their education while they are serving their country. we don't have a system in place that allows that transparency and allows that consistency of transparency. we are depriving you of letting

you get a head start on the rest of your life. we need to make sure that we have the metrics and access points right. >> well, absolutely right. i will tell you when i left the military, i didn't know what college navigator was. never heard of it, never used it. it is a wonderful research tool. nor is it helpful to student veterans as far as picking an ac dem k ocratic institution. would find themselves in a p

precarious situation. we try to figure out what we want to do in an online institution. so it might be helpful to folks who don't go to an institution of higher learning that i think can be helpful to many institutions of higher learning. >> thank you. we are going to recess, we are going to go vote and then we will be back. we have one 15-minute vote which is about over. and then we have two votes after that. hopefully we should be back here in 30 minutes. so.

>> we are going to reconvene. i'm going to ask the second p panel to come forward at this time. this group will include the honorable steve gungerson who is now representing the association of private sector colleges and universities. and dr. jonathan gibralter is that correct? who is the president of fros frostburg state university. and i want to give a special welcome to our next witness, miss margaret wechtel. who is representing the national association of program admin traitors and it is always great

to have a fellow hoosier testify and i want to thank you for your years of service in the united states air force. and mr. varmick nasarean. and representing the group of college administration of registr registrars. okay we are going to start with ms. flink you are recognized for five minutes. >> mr. chairman and members of the committee, my name is judith flink. i serve for the three campuses of the university of illinois. i have worked in the university business office for over 30

years. i'm testifying today on behalf of the national association university business officers of more than 2100 public and non profit universities. the mission is promote sound administrative financial management of colleges. it is an honor to be here today. we affirm that these students an indeed all students deserve high quality academic and support services. we strongly support safeguards against deceptive recruiting practices. i want to take the opportunity to suggest that the agency's k

task actively consult with the a organizations as they develop necessary rules. with my experience and as part of rule making, i can attest to such dialogue. i would therefore propose to the creation of groups with the define defined sprur and develop workable solution s as we develp procedures. i believe this will go a long way to develop policies and procedur procedures. since the post 9/11 gi bill, i have had the pleasure of participating in addressing issues involved in processing

tuition benefits. these meetings always end with both sides walking away better informed with how both sides operate. we believe most but not all of the principles if implemented according to the guidelines will not inflict cost or burden on the institutions. our concerns are as follows, section 2 a requires institutions to provide students with a broad range of information on a standard form. prospective students do not routinely identify themselves based on their federal aid eligibility making it difficult for schools to identify who should receive a form.

section 2 f mandates refund policies in a manner similar to policies for stund aid. ed permits colleges and universities to set their own refund policies. then this will create significant enrollment planning for institutions of higher education. section 2 g requires schools, if it is similar to the agreement recently reached on the memorandum of understanding, then institutions will be able to comply. section 3 requires school to track stund outcomes which will

be difficult to measure. and see often nontraditional students with educational goals that may differ from the traditional students. progress should not be measured solely on graduation rates. in conclusion, let me reiterate the commitment of nacubo's membership to measure they receive the education they deserve. however, implementation of the requirements in the president's recent executive order requires further clarification and discussions so that all parties can gain understanding and move towards consensus on developing an efficient, sensible policy. thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. >> thank you. mr. gunderson is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman and members of the committee. i'm delighted to return back and speak to you on this issue that is important to you and it's about the to us. well are honored to be able to say that over 152,000 veterans have attended our schools since the enactment of the post-9/11

gi bill. we are proud of that and we are proud of them. as a sector we have engaged with the subcommittee and others to identify protocols that best meet the academic needs of our veterans. as you know on january 31st, apscu joined with others in letters to this committee and the senate committee supporting two very basic but critical ideas for ensuring quality educational experience -- increased educational counseling and a protocol to ensure that legitimate complaints are heard and resolved. we have also been working with others in this committee and in the senate to develop a bipartisan consensus around the best protocols for protection of veterans' education experience. so you can imagine that we were a bit surprised and disappointed at the news of an impending executive order was made without any advance notice from the white house, circumventing the bipartisan, bicameral discussions. today's hearing is to look at the impact of that proposed executive order. our position remains one of

constructive engagement and pursuit of consensus and common sense policies. you may remember from my earlier testimony before this committee we must find new and better ways to calculate academic progress and graduation rates for veterans as well as all adults, part-time students, and others returning to school. if we can identify such metrics, we do everyone a favor, starting with the veterans. today only 18% of all post secondary students are captured by the calculations. a second area of concern is the complaint process, that it be one that appropriately serves and protects the veteran and the school. we need to know where and how many legitimate complaints really exist. therefore, the letter yesterday from chairman miller and senator burr to the secretary articulates the importance of appropriate data collection. but this process must be fair, and should it be focused on seeking resolution. we want every legitimate complaint by a veteran to be

heard. but we do not want this to become a vehicle for anonymous complaints for those who are not veterans who have a political agenda very different from the interests of the veteran students. on both issues we requested the and the white house assured us that all parties, including colleges and universities would be a part of a constructive, collaborative process to reach agreement on these issues before the executive order went into effect. we're earned because one-third of the way towards the deadline for implementation of the executive order, as of monday, no institution or organization on behalf of higher ed had been invited for such discussions. in moving forward in pursuit of further and appropriate protection for veterans, we asked that such criteria be developed with enforcement powers and consideration. the current authority, as you know, covers many federal and state authorities, including but not limited to the department of education, state licensing authorities, national, regional and program accreditation, the

securities and exchange commission, the ftc regarding false and unfair advertising, the veteran's administration authority under the 9/11 gi bill, the department of defense and others. we ask that the current authority be used to go after those engaged in misconduct before we indict an entire sector. you should also know that our sector is currently taking the misrepresentation issue step further. our board requested a student recruitment task force, develop guidelines for our membership, and are now creating what is called a self regulatory organization to deal additionally with this specific concern. in conclusion, and by chance, mr. chairman, long before this hearing was scheduled, i had a commitment yesterday to visit ecpi college in virginia beach. this school is important to this conversation because no less than 30% of their student body are veterans. the primary reason veterans choose this school, and i spent literally half an hour visiting

with the classroom of veterans is because they deliver academics in ways that move the veteran from the field from to the school into the workplace as quickly as possible. during my visit with the school, the veterans told me their number one complaint was not about the school, it was about the va's problems in processing their payments in a timely and proper manner. i have submitted to the committee, but i want to lift up for your attention the ecpi standards or best practices for veterans education, because i want you to see what these individual schools are doing on their own to make absolutely sure that they engage in the best education practices in the best interest of the veterans. this is the way we focus on the ultimate outcome, which is to make sure the veteran has a positive education experience that moves them from the field of battle into the education and into the workplace as soon as possible. thank you very much. >> thank you.

mr. beck -- ms. baechtold, you are recognized for five minutes. >> chairman stutzmann, ranking member braley and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the national association of veterans program administrators regarding executive order 13607. again, my name is margaret baechtold. over five years i have served a as the director of veteran support services at indiana university. a veteran myself, i retire affidavit 20 years of service, and i now also the legislative director for navpa. navpa is comprised of 400 educational institutions from all education sectors, and we advocate for what we believe are the best interest of student veterans at our institutions. our expertise lies in the administration of veterans programs at colleges, universities, and other education providers. our leadership is comprise odd of of nonpaid staff members in an effort to better serve the veterans on our campuses.

s a voluntary organization, navpa does not police its policy. our mission is to provide professional development to member institutions, collect and disseminate best practices for veterans support and advocate on behalf of students and our institutions. we believe strongly that all educational institutions should be forthright and open with all student, particularly with regard to veterans and service is members' unique needs and unique circumstances. news reports of unscrupulous organizations of treatment of unsuspecting veterans. and we strongly con testimony any abuses to which veterans might have been subjected at the hands of these institutions. while we ebelieve that there are no doubt costs and burdens involved in implementing this executive order, we cannot commit to any initiative that veterans are appropriately recruited, advised and supported while in school. navpa is pleased that the president is taking such a direct interest in the nides of the nation's veteran. we recognize that the requirement inhi