authority to prohibit enrollment of eligible veterans into poor performing schools. and you talk about how the va could join in agreement with ftc to do some things here. have they done those things? >> no. and that's my frustration. i spent 16 years in the congress promoting all of higher ed. i'm a big fan of universities, private, nonprofits, the private sector, everybody. there is so much out there today in terms of regulatory authority to go after the bad conduct that all we ask is use your present authority and go after that school and you will never hear me or my association here defending one bad apple engaged in misconduct of a veteran or any other student. but let's not indict all of higher ed or even just the private sector colleges and universities for the misconduct of one school. >> ms. baechtold, and several of the rest of you hit on this, and

i don't say this facetiously in any way. i am the staunchest supporter of the va, but i'll also be their harshest critic. one of the prescriptions for a better way of doing this is communication and getting data from the va. good luck with that. and i say that as i said not facetiously. they do a lot, and there is a lot of things that maybe we put on them with privacy data and concerns about that. so i do know that. but if we're going -- i couldn't agree with you more. i think as mr. braley hit upon, we have to do better at how we get that data. we have to do better as to how we process it. how do we engage va better? what are some of your solutions on that, or how do we get that communication working better? because this is a sticky point for us across a lot of issues. so ms. flink, you mentioned it also. if you have anything, please. >> i've been involved in the nacubo committee that is having conversations with the va. and one of the things we have continually brought up is that

if we could simply have a release that a veteran would sign that would allow people at the institution to talk to them, it's a pretty simple concept. we do have people at our institutions that can talk to them, but they're usually in margaret's role. it's not people in my area where we do the billing and the -- all of those types of processing. so we'll call up and we'll try to get some questions answered for the veteran, and we're immediately shut down. so we have been trying to work with them to have a very simple form that a veteran can form. we could fax it to them. we said you could create an online form. >> what was the feedback you got from them on that? because i can tell you, thing is a fundamental reform both in the processing of benefits claims, burial claims, and others. my county veterans service officers don't have the ability of what you're asking for. these are licensed, you know, basically licensed and bonded folks who say that we're going to protect this data, and they can't get it. have they been responsive to you

on the potential? >> in the conversations we have, they continue to say they have to have conversations internally. but we've been asking for well over 24 months. but that's just an example of how we could help the veterans move the process along. >> ui've been asking for six years. mr. gunderson might say he has been asking for 16 years. >> right. >> i do think that's a problem, and i'm troubled by. this the predatory nature of some of the folks doing this, i know it appalls all of you and appalls all the veterans. it's a disservice to our veterans. it's despicable and all that i also understand where you're coming from and in not somewhat i am troubled by an executive order without the input. and the last time many of you were here testifying, there was a good-faith effort to include you. i don't think we'll truly get at the heart of this if we don't include everyone in this decision making who is actually processing the data and going up. but i also think mr. nassirian's right. i can't ignore the data that shows this. and we need to hammer down on this there is a lot of money

here and a lot of those things. how we get to that point of communication is still troubling me. i went over my time. i'll yield back to the chairman. >> that is not a problem. ms. baechtold, did you have a comment i think you wanted to make? >> i just wanted to respond a little bit more to mr. walz's question. it's been baffling to school certifying officials, for example, that we can get full eligibility and payment information for almost every other chapter except the post-9/11 gi bill that is and has always been accessible to us through the va interface that we use to report information to the va. it appears it's a combination of perhaps misplaced privacy concerns since we obviously are entitled to that information for every other chapter and limitations on i.t. systems that may have other priorities right now. but pretty soon this needs to become a priority or we will not be able to continue to do many of the things and provide many of the things we do on our campuses. thank you.

>> thank you. i've got just a couple of other questions. mr. gunderson, you mentioned ecpi university. and it sounds like they're have a lot of success. i mean in -- is there something that they're doing differently that we should be paying attention to? and also, i think every one of us here would agree if there are bad apples out there, do we have the tools to deal with those now currently in place? >> you know, one of the things i enjoy every day is when i hear a new news release that frankly is going after one of our schools. not because i enjoy that they go after our schools, but because it confirms your point, that the tools are already there to go after those schools engaged in misconduct if it is used. so we ought to start with that. now what ecpi has done, which is go above and beyond the federal and the state minimums to

establish a voluntary set of best practices. and if ecpi were sitting here today rather than steve gunderson, what they would tell you is you know what? when we're engaged in on-site education of veterans, all we need do is screw up once and that commander will never again direct any of his enlistees to our school. >> so when you say if a school is being discipline order they're going after a school, what practices are they performing that requires them to discipline or to investigate? >> oh, i think the biggest allegation against our sector over the last four years has been misrepresentation. and as i tried to show certainly in my written testimony and to a degree much more quickly in my oral testimony is that there is between the accrediting

standards and between the both of the va and the department of education, as well as the ftc, all of them prohibit misrepresentation in advertising or sales. and so there is a lot of different avenues where you can go after that particular enforcement. that's number one. number two in why we support counseling is because i think if the veterans that i've talked to at these schools would tell you they have a complaint, it is that they don't know the right questions to ask at the beginning, and they will tell you as they have told me personally, what i thought it was going to cost to get a degree and what it really cost was different because there was an annual increase in tuition costs, or because if original tuition and books cost only covered online books. and if you want to buy a hardcopy book, it's questions like that where i think the counseling becomes such a key

part of equipping the veteran to know what they're pursuing. even on the transferability. we all know if you're nationally accredited, you probably don't have a good shot at getting transferability to a regional accreditation. it can be in the paperwork. and if it's not lifted up to that veteran, i got to be honest, i'm not sure when i was enrolling in college i would have had any idea to ask about national versus regional versus program-specific accreditation, what its impact would be. those are the kind of things i think we all want. >> thank you. any further questions? >> mr. nassirian, i want to just follow up on one of the commentious made in direct response to what we've just been talking about. you talked about the challenge of eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in these program areas. and yet the fact that there were burdensome regulations that were intended to attack that very

problem and yet were not having the desired results of providing accountability and due process and enforcement that then changes behavior. so what can we do to change that system? >> greater focus on outcomes. i think the ordinary citizen, i think your approach to the regulatory, to the pros of regulatory government is right on the money. the ordinary citizen understands intuitively that the taxpayers of this country as a moral obligation and recognition of the service that our service members have provided to this nation are providing for educational benefits. the questions should not be accreditation, licensure and a stack of forms that they can fill out. the question is did this veteran leave this place better off or worse off? and i think -- i think this

committee can make tremendous strides by simply is focusing on that bottom line question. are these billions of dollars that are being spent actually improving the lot of veterans or are they being actually left worse off despite the expenditure of funds and the massive amounts of paperwork that legitimate institutions are dealing with because of the fact that we have a problem we don't want to stare in the face. we want to be circuitous. with regard to the executive order, it is very much that challenge. the executive order is an attempt at taking the right steps. the problem is we have easier ways of getting there. it requires legislation. it requires tests of market viability. it requires tests of good outcomes for the veterans as well as for the taxpayers of this country. >> well, we talked to a lot of veterans, and specifically on this committee about how you transition out of the military

into a civilian workforce or into a civilian education environment. and a lot of the veterans we talked to who go through those programs talk about what we commonly refer to as death by power point. and these are men and women who have given so much and who have sacrificed so much and are so burdened with that transition and just want to get it behind them and move on with their lives. i think mr. walz, you were there at a joint hearing with the senate on this. and i sat there listening, and i tried to think of this the way somebody in iowa would sitting around their kitchen table. and holly petraeus was one of the witnesses who was testifying there. i said, you know, if you're concerned about making sure that somebody has access to an 800 number or a website or a facebook page that they can access, we'd put that on a refrigerator magnet. because that's what we do when we want to know where to find

something. senator rockefeller looked at me, and he seemed very intrigued may be the concept. i don't know that he has a lot of refrigerator magnets. but it's one of those simple things that really can have far ranging benefits to people who are so burdened with information, they don't even know where to start. to get the answers to the questions they have. i think sometimes we have well meaning people who are highly educated, who want to do the right thing, and want to take into account every potential contingency and forget the underlying objective of the original program. so i appreciate all of your being here today. and thank the chairman again for holding this. >> thank you. to all of you. and i appreciate you being here and your information has been very helpful and very valuable. we do have votes at 5:00. so i think we'll go ahead and excuse you all and bring up the last and final panel. with us today representing the

national association of state approving agencies is mr. chad schatz. thank you, who is accompanied by mr. skip gebhart. and i'd like to remind everyone that the saas are a critical link in approving schools and courses for gi benefits. and then next we have retired major general rob worley. nen worley is the new director of va's education service and has been on board for about a month. we welcome him to his new post. and welcome to the subcommittee. we thank you for your years of dedicated service to our country in the u.s. air force as well. mr. schatz, is that correct? >> schatz. >> okay. we'll recognize you for five minutes for your testimony. >> mr. chairman, ranking members

of the subcommittee, we represent every school and college and training program relative to the usage of the gi bill. the idea of adopting and applying principles of excellence as outlined in the executive order is consistent with sound educational philosophy and practices and is currently recognized, respected, and implemented throughout much of the education community. our experience tells us that while some of the proposed requirements in the executive order may be helpful to the achievement of the present schools, they also could result in the establishment of measures and systems that duplicate other approaches and services that already meet the objectives, although in varying degrees of comprehensiveness. full execution of the executive order principles could lead to increased work for institutions and other entities without proportional value being added to the process of helping veterans reach their career goals. for example, the principles related to the availability of

other types of financial assistance and information regarding debt and those which address the development of educational plans and the designation of points of contact for academic and financial advising are important to the vast majority of educational institutions and are generally integral to the services that they presently provide. similarly, the information about outcome resources referred in section is 2, subparagraph a and further elaborated on is currently available threw various systems managed by the federal government and reputable private sector organizations. we suggest is that these areas of concern receive additional study and analysis before mandating their presentation or publication in another separate and distinct format. we support efforts to discover false advertising and fraudulent recruiting practices and to tighten policies and procedures that discourage such practices. section 3696 of title 38 provides an excellent framework

from which to work for gi bill purposes. we suggest that the subcommittee consider holding a worksession to address these issues. we do not support the concept advocated in section 2, subparagraph d. it appears to limit the use of the gi bill's and discriminate against enrollment in some very good nonaccredited programs of education, some of which are offered by quasi governmental and not for profit entities. section 3676 of title 38 provides the basic framework for state governments through their state approving agencies to ensure the quality and integrity of nonaccredited programs. we encourage the subcommittee to conduct a careful review of existing consumer safeguards and student information initiatives. additionally, we offer the following recommendations. number one, convene a working group of stakeholders whose purpose would be to research problems associated with the successful administration of gi bills and make recommendations to the subcommittee on changes

necessary in law and/or policy to address the problems. number two, recent state the approval and disapproval authority held by state approving agencies prior to the enactment of 111377. remove the section and redesignate state approving agency as having disapproval authority on 3679. these changes would help to restore the partnership between the federal government and state governments that help to make the gi bill successful for over 65 years. the changes would provide the authority to states and state approving agencies to take definitive action to help resolve problems in areas in a timely manner with minimal disruption to perspective and currently enrolled veteran students. states have the infrastructure, the experience, and the expertise necessary to assist congress and the va in meeting the challenges forthcoming by

increasingly complex educational delivery systems where improvements in the process used by state approving agencies become necessary, there are already existing provisions in law to help, such as mechanisms in section 3674a. mr. chairman, the national association of state improving agencies suggests there are manies a specifics of the executive order that require technical clarification with respect to current law. with the subcommittee's agreement, would appreciate the opportunity to present a letter in this regard. in closing, we express to the appreciation to majority and staffs for their many court sis. >> thank you. general worley, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, ranking member braley and distinguished members of the subcommittee, i'm pleased to be here today to discuss the department of veterans affairs efforts and implementation of

executive order 13677 entitled principles of excellence for institutional education service veterans, service members and family members which is designed to strengthen oversight and enforcement accountability within educational programs. the va supports the executive order, which directs va and other federal agencies to develop and implement these principles of excellence to ensure service members, veterans, spouses, and other family members using military and veterans education benefits have comprehensive educational and financial aid information so they can make informed choices in selecting educational programs which will best meet their educational and readjustment needs. further, the executive order will put in place enhanced oversight and enforcement mechanisms to ensure beneficiaries are protected from deceptive practices and have the means to resolve effectively their complaints. in fiscal year 2011, va provided

educational benefits to nearly one million veterans, service members, and dependents under the post-9/11 gi bill and our legacy educational benefit programs. while we continue to focus on processing claims accurately and timely, the va has been working to expand our focus from benefit delivery to provide mortgage comprehensive information and support throughout a veteran's academic career. in 2011, we updated the gi bill website to include resources such as choosing your school guide book, as well as links to the department of education's college navigator tool set and the department of labor's o-net occupational handbook. as you know, va also sponsors the vets success on campus program and offers vocational counseling through chapter 36 for all students eligible for va benefits. the strong impetus of the executive order will help build on these types of efforts and provide additional support to best serve our veterans.

an additional key aspect of the executive ordeals with developing a strategy for the development of comparable student outcome measures. this is an important issue, and one measure the va is taking in this regard is the initiation of a longitudal study of veterans who are using post-9/11 gi bill benef benefits. this will track three cohorts of beneficiaries over 20 years and measure outcomes in four key areas -- employment, educational attainment, income, and home ownership. the first survey for this effort is out for public comment now and is anticipated to be put out in next year in 2013. the va is aware of concerns of improper recruitment of veterans by educational institutions. with the passage of public law 111377, the veterans a

educational assistance act of 2010, the va is existing relationships with state approving agencies there an expanded compliance role to provide additional oversight and we are having ex -- with justice, defense, labor, the federal trade commission and the consumer financial protection bureau to expand oversight, share information and develop a strategy for implementing a centralized complaint system which is required by the executive order. v.a. has begun implementing some of the requirements of the executive order. this week we'll disseminate the principles of excellence to g.i. bill schools and seek their response with respect to their intent to comply with the principles of excellence or not. in addition, we've already initiated the application to the patent and trademark office for the registration of the term g.i. bill. mr. chairman, ranking member

braley, v.a. is committed to working with all stakeholders to implement the provisions of this order to ensure veterans are informed consumers and schools meet their obligations in training the nation's next generation. this concludes my statement. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. general worley, in your written testimony, you say that there have been numerous reports of aggressive and deceptive targeting of service members. can you explain and verify, how many of those have been verified, what were the findings on those. >> i'm sorry. mr. chairman, could you repeat the question? >> in your written testimony, you have towards the executive order headline since the post 9/11 g.i. bill became law, there are numerous reports of deceptive and targeting of service members. can you elaborate on that more?

were there findings? was there any investigation? how many of those reports have been verified? >> mr. chairman, i don't have specifics -- i mean, i haven't delved into the specifics of which are verified or not. this is in response to reports that are out there and what i can tell you is that through the compliance program that we have and we cooperate and help the estate approving agencies do, that has identified even in my short time in the job institutions where either deceptive practices or other issues have been raised that have resulted in either suspension or withdrawal of those institutions as g.i. bill approved schools. so i have knowledge of some specifics about schools that have engaged in those kinds of activities, but as far as the

actual reports of specific veterans, i don't have that. >> okay. is that -- could you submit those names to the committee staff at some point? >> yes, there chairman. >> and then also, is there a definition for aggressive recruiting, fraudulent actions that are being taken -- what it is? >> my response to that, mr. chairman, would be when we do compliance surveys, these institutions, we are assessing their programs against the requirements for g.i. bill approval. so consistent with those definitions and those spiskss is how that's done. >> finally, -- has not been asd

to meet as part of the implementation of the executive board. do you know -- has that happened? >> mr. chairman, i anticipate that to happen. this is the early stages. we'll be collaboratively working with the department of education, dod and so forth to work all these issues. the executive order, as you know, directs each of those institutions to, in some cases, lead a particular provision or task, others to co-lead or collaborate in consultation with. so that work is to be done and we'll be working with all those agencies. >> okay. thank you. mr. schatz, in addition to your suggestion to restore the s.a.a.'s role in approving schools and courses, what specific ways can the saas assist the va in preventing

predatory practices? >> i'll be happy to answer that, mr. chairman. contrary to the general statement and with great respect, compliance surveys do not necessarily look at that sort of thing. compliance surveys look at payment appropriate -- or the appropriate payments, things like that. i was on a compliance survey not long ago at one of our larger institutions and with the va employee who asked the school to provide copies of their advertising and we looked at it and it was perfectly fine. it's hard to tell what a predatory practice may be in a compliance survey. it's much easier to talk to veterans and say why did you choose this school? another thing that came out when i was participating in a gao interview about predatory practices was several of our nasa colleagues, one of the

questions was basically what is a predatory and aggressive recruiting practice? and one of my colleagues said, you know, it may be that what we perceive to be aggressive is what veterans perceive to be good marketing and good student customer service. for example, many schools probably private proprietary schools more than public, will assist veterans and all students with filling out financial aid forms. public schools typically do not do that. they say go to the website, fill out the form. so a person who is unfamiliar with the college experience, the college environment and all those forms is going to say, wow, this is a really good school because they're helping me fill this out. that is perhaps aggressive. but it may be good customer service. it's very difficult to go to a school and say yes, they're

being predatory and aggressive or no, they're not and the kinds of reviews that we have done in a compliance survey. now, when the saas formerly would do supervisory assistant, we could look around and see what's happening. we could talk to veterans and see what's happening much more easily than now in a compliance survey. that's one reason that we are advocating going back to more of the role that saas used to have. because we had more flexibility. and too, we're out there every year. this year in my state, for example, i have 114 approved institutions. last year we saw almost each one of them. this year i've been tasked to do 28 compliance surveys and the va, my va colleague is doing about ten. that's fewer than half of the facilities that we have in