we have the technology available now to allow to you do that. but we need to make sure we have the metrics right and the access points right or we are going to be holding people back who want to make use of that time to move forward. >> absolutely. i will you, when i left the military, i didn't know what college navigator was. now in my current position, it's a wonderful research tool. it has no bearing for consumer education or nor is it helpful to veterans as far as picking an academic institution or program. i will tell you that ryan and i were speaking about this. i know that some institutions would find themselves in a

precarious situation if you use graduation rates. and a lot of them go to community colleges first. trying to figure out what we want to do or go to an online institution and take a few credits. transfer out rates might be helpful for folks who don't go and complete a degree at one institution of higher learning. that is something specific they think can be helpful to many of the institutions of higher learning. >> thank you, i yield back. >> we will take a recess and go vote and we will be back and we have a 15-minute vote that is about over and three five-minute votes after that. we should be back here in about 30 minutes.

>> we are going to reconvene and ask the second panel to come forward at this time. this group will include steve gunderson, the honorable steve gunderson from wisconsin and now representing the association of private sector colleges and universities. next we have doctor jonathan gi braltar. is that correct? sheet president of frost berg state university and representing the american association of state college and universities. i want to give the university and the association of veteran program administrators. welcome.

they testify as i was telling the ranking member and the hoosier values that i like to talk about. i want to thank you for your years of service in the air force. representing the american association of college reg stars and admissions officers and finally miss judith flink from the university of illinois representing the university business officers. we will start with miss flirchg because we will have to slip out. you are recognized for five minutes. >> mr. chairman and members of the committee. my name is judith flink and serve as student financial services for the three campuses of the can university of

illinois. i have been actively involved in higher education for over 30 years. i am testifying on behalf of the business officers that represents chief financial officers and their staff at more than 2100 public and nonprofit colleges and universities. our mission is to promote sound administrative and financial management of institutions of higher education. it's an honor for me to be here today. they share the president's goals as outlined in his executive order establishing principals of excellence for institutions serving veterans, service members and their families. we affirm that these students and indeed all students deserve high quality academic and support services that enable to make informed decisions about their education. we strongly support safeguards against deceptive recruiting practices. before elaborating on the specific concerns, i want to take the opportunity to suggest that the agency's task with

implementing the executive order actively consult with institutions and the organizations that represent them as they develop the necessary rules. with my positive experience on the department of education's advisory committee and part of negotiated rule making for doe, i can attest to such dialogue. we work in partnership and develop workable solutionsas we implement new policy and procedures. i believe this will go a long way to bring consensus and efficiencies to colleges and universities. the partner agencies and most importantly the service members we serve. to illustrate, since implementation of the post 9/11 gi bill had the pleasure to participate in those who try to meet quarterly to address issues

involved in processing chapter 33 tuition benefits. these always end with both sides walking away better informed about how each of us operate. most of the time. regarding the executive order, we believe most, but not all of the president's principal align with existing u.s. department of education requirements. those principals if implemented according to the ed guidelines will not inflict additional cost to burden on the member institutions. we do have serious concerns about some of the other provisions and their potential implications. the concerns are sfolz. section 2 a requires institutions to provide students with a broad range of information on an individualized standard form. perspective students do not routinely identify themselves based on federal aid eligibility, making it difficult to know who should receive the form until they are actually

enroll and on campus. furthermore the va has not developed procedures to communicate with schools about veterans and their eligibility for educational benefits. section 2 f mandates institutional refund policies in a manner similar to each policy used for earning student aid refunds. outside that, they permit colleges and universities to set their own refund policies. if the new policy will differ from ed's policy, then this will create significant enrollment planning and budget challenges for institutions of higher education. section 2 g requires institutions to provide education plans for all individuals using federal, military, and veterans benefits. the intent of this is not all together clear to us. if it is similar to the agreement reached by institutions and the memorandum of understanding and the institutions will be able to comply. if not, further discussion will be necessary. section 3 requires schools to

track student out comes that may be difficult to measure and may be misleading. veterans and service numbers are often non-traditional students with educational goals that may differ from the students. progress should not be measured solely on graduation rates. let me reiterate the commitment of the membership to ensuring that the service members receive the education they deserve. however, implementation of the requirements and the president's recent executive order requires further clarification and discussions so that all parties can gain understanding and move towards consensus on developing an efficient sensible policy. thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. >> thank you. mr. gunderson, recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman and members of the committee. i am delighted to return back and speak to you on this issue. we are honored to be able to say that over 152,000 veterans have

attended our schools since the enactment of the post 9/11 gi bill. we are proud of that and proud of them. as a sector, we have been gaining the subcommittee and others to identify and develop protocols that best meet the needs of our veterans. on january 31st, we joined with others and our harshest critics in letters to the president and the senate committee supporting twbasic, but critical ideas for ensuring quality educational experience. increased educational counselling and a protocol to ensure that complaints are heard and resolved. we have been working with other others on this committee and in the senate to develop a bipartisan consensus around the best protocols for veteran education experience. you can imagine that we were surprise and disappointed. the news of an order was made without advance notice from the white house, circomventing the discussions. today's hearing is to look at the impact of that proposed

executive rt. our position remains one of constructively engagement and pursuit of consensus and common sense policies. you may remember from my earlier testimony before this committee, we must find new and better ways to calculate academic progress and graduation rates for adults and part-time students and others returning to school. e can identify such metrics, we do everyone a favor starting todaon 18% of all post secondary students are captured by the ipad's calculations. the second area of concern is the complaint process and it be that we need to know where and how many legitimate complaints exist. from chairman miller to the secretary,ulat the importance of appropriate data collection. this process must be fair and it should be focussed on seeking

resolution. we want every legitimate complaint to be heard, but we do not want it to be a vehicle for anonymous complaints for those who are not veterans and have an agenda that is different from the veteran students. on both issues we requested and they assure us that all parties would be a part of a process to agreement on these issues before the executive order went into effect. we are concerned because one third of the way through the executive order as of monday, no institution or organization on behalf of higher ed had been invited for such discussions. in moving forward in pure suit of further and appropriate protects for the veterans, we ask that additional criteria be developed with current, regulatory and enforcement and consideration. the current authority as you know covers many federal and state authorities including but not limited to the department of education, state licensing authorities and national,

regional and program accreditation. the securities and exchange commission and the ftc. the authority under the 9/11 gi bill and the department of defense and others. we ask that the current authority be used to go after those engaged in misconduct before we indict an entire sector. you should know that they are taking the issue one step further. they are developing guidelines and the membership and creating a self-regulatory organization to deal additionally with the specific concern. in conclusion and by chance m chairman, long before the hearing was scheduled. this school is important to the conversation because no less than 30% of their student body are veterans.

the primary reason veterans choose this school and i spent a half hour visiting with the classroom is because they deliver academics in ways that move the veteran from the field into the workplace and it quickly is possible. during my visit with the school, the veterans told me their complaint was not about the school. it was about the va's problems in processing their payments in a timely and proper manner. i submitted to the committee the standards or best practices for veterans education. i want you to see what these individual schools are doing on their own to make absolutely sure that they engage in the best education practices in the best interest of the veterans. this is the way we focus on the ultimate out come which is to make sure the veteran has a positive experience that moves them from the field of battle into the education and into the

workplace as soon as possible. thank you very much. >> thank you. you are recognized for five minutes. >> chairman and ranking member braley and members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the national association of veteran program administrators regarding 14607. for over five years i served as the director of veterans support services at indiana university. a veteran myself i retired from the air force after 20 years of service and am now also the legislative director. the membership is com surprised of 400 educational institutions from all education sectors and we advocate for the best interest of student veterans at the institutions. the expertise lies in the administration of programs at colleges, universities and other education providers. our leadership is comprised of staff members who serve in an effort to better serve the

veterans on our campuses. as a voluntary organization, we do not police the membership rather the issues raised by the executive order. our mission is to provide development to member institutions and best practices for student veteran support and advocate on behalf of our institutions. we believe that all institutions should be forthright and open with all students, particularly with regard to veterans and service members's unique needs and circumstances. like so many others, the news reports of organization's treatment of unsuspecting veterans. we strongly condemn abuses to which they might have been subjected at the institutions. costs and burdens, we cannot object to anything that seeks to ensure that veterans are recruited, advised and supported while in school. they are pleased that they take a direct interest.

we recognize that the requirement to provide personalized financial advising will be challenging to implement. this advice can only be provided if the institution has full access to all eligibility information required to have aid alternatives. at present information is generally not provided to informations and we must rely on student veterans to furnish us with such information. we have long advocated for access to student information from the va, for example, and we will continue to do so. the timing of institutional and agency business practices will make implementation difficult. the students cannot apply for certain benefits like army tuition assistance until after they enrolled with classes. schools cannot predict how much might be provided to assistance or even veterans affairs benefits prior to enrollment, application and benefit authorization. furthermore, many benefits are

based on actual enrollment levels, institutional charges and the receipt of other financial awards. many awards must be adjusted whenever they student receives other financial awards. the post 9/11 bill is an example of a program that pays a net cost when other awards are received. they support efforts to better inform students about the benefits, but we recognize the challenges involved with the services required in this executive order. we hope and expect that the policies are developed, we might provide the information needed by veterans and their families. regarding student outcomes, all schools are interested in assessing the students. they will define the success appropriately and develop data collection methods that are robust, accurate and meaningful. we hope and expect that institutions and the organizations that represent them will be involved in developing these desired out

come and metrics. we support efforts to improve information resources for perspective students, absolutely. we also encourage efforts to provide schools access to data about individual students and benefits and eligibility so we can accomplish the tasks required of us. we fully support efforts to maintain veterans advised and supported in school. they should not be a substitute for collid oversight. the agencies are in need of further oversight resources to provide training and enforce the provisions as well as the currently existing regulations. the va needs assistance with tasks now that the bill is so complex. diverting state approving agency resources to that role proved problematic and leaves no one to fulfill the historic role of providing institutions on broader education issues. there varying roles and tasks

should be those best suited to accomplish them. this concludes the statement. as a veteran ando half of nafta i would like to thank you for your leadership on issues of critical importance to veterans. >> thank you. you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and ranking members of the committee. i am associate executive director with the collegieate registrars and we abbreviate it to acro. we are delighted to participate in this discussion. i committed a written testimony for the record. i would like to do in plain damage for issues for the subcommittee's attention. i shall do so dogmatically because of the shortness of time.

we can certainly talk about the underlying reasons. the for profit sector in higher education has a significant and pervasive problem with waste, fraught, and abuse. this is not anything against the profit motive. we endorse it and the building we sit in was built by somebody who hopefully was doing it for a profit and did a good job. when you compare how we put up buildings in this country with building codes and inspections and heavy penalties, if somebody under sizes the seem beams we understand it needs to be framed. i am here to suggest to you as somebody who spent almost a quarter century looking at this stuff. we have a lot of procedural and burdensome regulations. we do not have substantive

safeguards to ensure that an entity perporting to be a college or university is doing any teaching. that is equivalent to buildings falling on people's heads on a daily basis. the basic reason here is simple. when you put a building up or take a color tv home, there very obvious performance tests on the basis of which you know what you got. education is a lifetime experience service. you can show people all kinds of promises on the front end that they will only learn 20 years later. they didn't actually pan out. that's one point. i raise an issue that has been raised before by my other colleagues about the 9010 rule. this should pay attention to that because what the rule does is makes every dollar of extra dollars of title four money. vets are walking around with big

targets on their backs because their dollars are the means by which these entities that have almost no other purchasing. what are they selling that no one else is willing to put a dollar of hard earned cash on. veterans earned their benefits, but these are federal and these are being used to leverage others so that the notion of for profit and for market-based profit making the right way. it's contivitying of 100 cents on the dollar coming from the gets. something wrong there. my colleagues talked about the glut of data. in the navigator. i am mechanically challenged. i want to know where the key goes and where the gas goes. i can't take it to the oil level

being right. that's the reason unless you want to get a ph.d. we consult consumer reports and attempt to understand what car is right for us. very tough to do with education. disclosures are not a substitute for gate keeping. i don't want to have toxic food on the shelves with a ph.d. as to whether it's going to kill me or it's edible. we should take toxic programs off the table so they are not victimized. finally with regard to the executive order, we support it as an imperfect substitute for what only you could do. you are the folk who is write these laws and you have done so with leadership and the best of intentions. and if this committee takes a look at the situation and address gate keeping, we can simplify a lot of things that we

have to do and i look forward to the opportunity and any questions. >> doctor, you are recognized for five minutes. >> chairman and ranking member braley and distinguished members of the subcommittee. i am the president in maryland. rural university in western maryland and part of the system of maryland's 11 campuses. i am here testifying on behalf of the american association of state colleges and universities known as aascu that represents over 400 public institutions and university systems. thank you for holding this hearing. i would encourage members to view my written statement for further detail and explanation of this testimony. he serves the majority connected to the region's national guard and reserve units.

the number of veterans we serve varies significantly from year to year. our overall enrollment is about 5500 students. we are currently serving about 102 veterans. our growing online programs in particular are accredited mba and the new bachelor of science and nursing are proving particularly popular with veterans since the programs are designed to be very flexible. aascu serves as the administrative agency for the student colleges and supports the sbebt of the issued executive order. our nation's veterans and military personnel should be able to obtain quality information about institutions and their programs. aascu and the institutions including my own campus value the perspective and experience that service members and veterans bring to the institutions. as such, we take our commitment

to providing them a quality educational experience very, very seriously. as the conflicts in iraq and afghanistan wind down and over two million troops are with drawn from the areas, more and more veterans will be arriving on college campuses to use the benefits they earned serving our country. in addition, our active duty military are combining service to the country with higher education. the text of the executive order as written raises a number of concerns for aascu institutions regarding implementation. those of us are most aware of the human issues of the individuals that we work with. for example, as there is no requirement that students identify themselves as veterans, some choose not to do so. meaning they may be missing out on services that we can and should provide. the executive order requires the secretaries to develop a

comprehensive strategy for developing service member and veteran student out come measures that are comparable across federal military and veterans educational benefit programs. while we appreciate the statement that to the extent prakt kabul, the out come members should rely on data to minimize the burden on institutions in these program, there is considerably more burden to finding available data in the out come measures than meets the eye. the issues of data collection raised by the executive order's requirement to develop national level out come measures become each more significant for institutions. first, the federal government does not collect veterans and military students's data from institutions. second, states vary in their ways of defining veteran and military students based on what

data is available to them. given the complexity on the topic, higher education will be asked for data that may or may not be possible to obtain. this leads to another concern that of reporting burden and associated softs. the government accountability completed an analysis. among other issues, the gao found that schools reported time ramging from 12 to 590 hours compared to the education estimated. gao further reported that institutions incurred a total estimated salaries and computer cost of over $6 million. the call for specific comparable out come measures in the executive order would be an expansion of reporting requirements and may require

institutions to incur considerable back office costs. another key concern that was mentioned earlier is the complaint system outlined in the executive order that would create a centralized complaint system for students receiving federal military and veterans educational benefits. instituting a centralized complaint system without first establishing whether an individual has already attempted to resolve their complaint with the university or colleges veterans affairs office represents of concern. too often complaints raised to the highest level when they may better be resolved on the campus. we strongly suggest that higher education stakeholders have significant input into the consuptualization into the complaint system. in closing, frost berg state university and other institutions are eager to continue meeting the needs of our military members and veterans as well as