so the story goes ten years ago i was in frankfurt, germany giving a speech, and after the speech a young woman came over to me with a heavy german accent, and she had tears in her eyes. i usually, when i finished speeches, don't leave people with tears in their eyes, and she said i want to thank you for working for your president reagan, and i said, please tell me. and she told me that she had grown up in east berlin. as a young girl her parents had taken her as close as they could get to hear your president speak at the brandenburg gate, and president reagan changed my life and my family's life. by this time i had tears in my

eyes, and i said to her do you mind me asking you what you do now, and all of a sudden she got very modest and very shy, and looked down and said i'm an investment banker with goldman sachs. [ laughter ] if ronald reagan had not had alzheimer's at the time, that would have been his new favorite story. you can talk about the welfare queen and everything else. it was i'm an investment banker, but here it was. the power of that speech, the fact that people in east berlin were listening and that a year and a half after president reagan left office the wall came down, wow. >> where were you when the wall came down, and what were you

feeling at the time? >> i was transfixed to a television. i couldn't sleep. the next day i spoke with president reagan. >> i was going to ask. it was november of 1989. i don't think that the president and certainly i thought that the berlin wall would be coming down as quickly as it did, but we had a little clue, because you have to look at all of these events as a continuum. president reagan met with general secretary gorbachev, not only at the summit meetings here in washington in the end of '87 or in moscow in '88, but we also met at governor's island early in -- late in 1988, and we brought with us president-elect

george herbert walker bush as a ceremonial passing of the torch. gorbachev was in -- was in new york to give a speech at the united nations. the launch was seven soviet yet, seven russians and seven of us americans. gorbachev began the lunch by talking about the problems he was having in the then soviet union with the bureaucracy, the nomenclaturea. he talked about he was not sure that he could prevail about gas not and perestroika, and he looked across the table at his friend, president reagan. and said what advice do you have? what do you think? and reagan ever so gently said, my friend, mr. general

secretary, the bureaucracy is the same the world over. the only way you can overcome the bureaucracy is to have the people on your side. what that means is less money for missiles and more money for consumer goods, less money for defense and more money for housing and clothing and food and education. and looking across the table in gorbachev's eyes i realized that either way he turned it was over because he couldn't turn on the defense in the bureaucracy, the military bureaucracy, and he couldn't sell out the russian people, and it was that combination which led to less

than a year later the berlin wall coming down. so you knew that things were really starting to move when gorbachev began that lunch. >> did -- did they ever talk about that speech and those lines, that particular line? >> not in my presence. >> yeah. and i don't think they did. >> so there was no immediate feedback from the soviet union in the aftermath? >> there was feedback through cables, et cetera, that were not all that pleased with the tone of the speech. >> right. >> but obviously things accelerated, and george shultz, among others, credits that speech now, with accelerating talks on the intermediate ballistic missile which we signed a treaty to severely take down the number here in washington in december of '87.

>> right. >> i think that speech was really fundamental to ending the cold war. it really gave impetus and got the soviets, gorbachev, et cetera, to do what they knew that they had to do in order to balance out some of taking care of the people of russia. >> mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and so that vice really started hammering that led to the treaty signed in washington and then the very successful summit that president reagan had with general secretary gorbachev in moscow, june of next year, that next year. >> did president reagan realize the impact almost immediately that the speech was going to have, or did you discuss it afterwards? i assume you -- i don't know if you got back in the same limo you were in on the way to the speech, but did -- what -- what was your conversation like with him afterwards? >> well, as he said in his

diaries, there were people as far as the eye could see, and he couldn't see that far. he was taken with the response from the audience, was curious about did the loudspeakers really work because he wanted so much to speak to the people in east berlin as well, and he was optimistic that this was a moment, not the moment but a moment that put more pressure on and that one of these days can -- that wall will come down, so it came down. >> and it did. we have an exhibit here. >> right. >> at the museum, as i mentioned, of the wall, but we

also have film clips of president reagan as a great communicator, and certainly that line was probably the prime example of it. there had been many others, i think. do you think that line is what he will be most remembered for or just one of several? >> i think that one of several. i think that is the signature line of the eight years because he tore down walls, not just in berlin, but around the world. he opened up trade barriers. i think he tore down walls here in washington and around our country, and in his farewell address he concluded by saying we started out to change our country, and i think we wound up maybe changing the world. not bad, not bad at all for a "b" movie actor.

but there were so many moments, you know, whether it's the "challenger" speech on that god awful day, whether it's the evil empire, but it's really the sunny optimism, the can-do spirit, the morning in america that ronald reagan came to symbolize for all of america. everybody started feeling good about themselves, and it was -- we felt good about ourselves here at home, and we had respect around the world, and i think part of that was the leadership of ronald reagan, if not the major part. >> i think that's very well put. the article that peter robinson wrote in yesterday's "wall street journal" described it for the people in germany and europe as an awakening, that they had not -- they were sort of stuck in the reality of the wall, and those words awakened a spirit in them that -- that -- that they

rose up, and they ultimately tore down the wall. it wasn't gorbachev who tore down the wall, but it was the people. >> you've got to remember the moment. the day before the berlin wall speech, margaret thatcher was elected to a third term at the prime minister of the uk, great britain. reagan gives this speech. mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. all of a sudden there was electricity. it was the western alliance. we were all on the march, and the people, as symbolized by that young girl in east berlin, said there is hope. in peter robinson's video, it's going to visit those people who said, no, we'll never get accustomed to the wall. it must come down, and to have the words of the president of

the united states who we referred to always as the leader of the free world come to that wall, and you saw in the video clip the bulletproof glass behind him because our secret service wasn't sure that there would be a sniper from the east berlin. these were tense moments in the course of history, and to be that strong but do it in a way of hope and optimism. if you truly want to liberalize, if you mean what you say, here's visible evidence. go do it. and the people of germany did it, and gorbachev did it, too. >> well, ken, i don't want to dominate the conversation because we have a wonderful audience here today, and i know that many will have questions to

ask of you, too, and you're so gracious to be with us. i'd like to take advantage of that, if that's all right with you. >> great. >> and get some questions from the audience. >> okay. >> i'm a german journalist. i was there in '87 and perhaps you'll remember the american community. >> right. >> my question is i remember several visits of u.s. presidents in west berlin, but all took place at different locations. who choose the specific location so close to the wall at the brandenburg gate, besides his security concerns, so who was the one who decided we will stay there? >> the decision to set up a white house event, any white house event, is usually in the

domain of the advance office, the people who do the advance work for the white house. president reagan, as you know, started with mike deaver, always picked venues that communicated. why would he give the speech at the reichstag if the berlin wall was right next door? that communicated, tear down this wall. that was a clear symbol of the worst atrocities that had been committed with all the crosses and all the deaths of people trying to flee to freedom. it is the same way when you give an environmental speech. you usually do it outdoors now. you always do it at a place that

communicates because you're speaking not just to the audience but also to tv. the brandenburg gate, the heft of it, the symbolism of it, if you're going to go to berlin and you're going to give the speech of the nature that president reagan gave, that was in our view, the advance department's view, all the way up to the white house, including senator baker, that was the right place to give that ultimate speech. >> ken, you mentioned to me that the president was particularly moved when he saw the crosses. >> right. >> by the wall where -- to mark the spots where people were killed trying to climb the wall. do you mind sharing that with -- with our audience tonight. >> well, we stood there for several minutes with helmut kohl, the chancellor.

the stark reality of a 13-foot wall plus barbed wire, knowing that on the other side that there were dog runs. there was glass planted. you couldn't -- it was a no-man's-land. to see how far people had struggled to get over the barbed wire and then be shot before they got to the west. as reagan said, this is the only wall that's ever been built to keep people in, not keep people out. he said that with chancellor kohl. these weren't prepared remarks. this is just standing there and talking. it was helmut kohl, president

reagan, jim kuhnin who was personal aide to the president and myself who was standing there, and it was the enormity of the wall, the drabness, the darkness and knowing that people were -- had tried to escape, and there was that cross, and there was that cross, and there was that cross. and you leave to go to the brandenburg gate with that emotion inside to give a presidential level speech that i think fundamentally changed the course of history. >> other questions? >> yeah. we're here to celebrate this downing of the wall, and i don't want to diminish it in any way because i, too, served in germany in the '60s. i wond -- you said timing was important here, and i wonder if you could weigh this wall speech with other world events at the

time, like we were talking about walensa and the coal miners and all the things that were going on in eastern europe. would that have given him? >> i'm glass you raised it with lech walesa. there was a movement in eastern europe to liberalize. gorbachev had announced some liberalization as well. they were taking it and the polish were taking it and havlav and the czech republic were all starting to make moves towards liberalization, so it was all coming together. you throw that in with margaret thatcher's third term, the election, with the reagan speech. it was a coming together that was putting massive pressure on the so-called soviet union and all the states that they

dominated, and under that gorbachev was trying to balance everything out. that's why i told the story about governor's island because it was all coming to bear on him, but you're absolutely right. those are some of the other parts that were so fundamental and so important to ultimately the wall coming down a year and a half later. thank you. >> the clip mentioned earlier that it was the citizens of germany that tore down the wall, but if that line hadn't been left in the speech, in your expert opinion, how do you think president reagan would have been remembered? >> i think he would have been remembered as somebody who brought america back from 1980 and the '70s which were so bad economically, that he rebuilt america, rebuilt respect for america around the world, and he was doing that all the years before 1987, and so now it's an

easy symbol to hold on to, but what was the 1984 campaign about? it wasn't about diminishing your opponent. it was about it's morning in america again. we have 7.2% gdp growth. our unemployment rate is down three points. we're creating millions of new jobs. america is back, so, you know, that's what you take from these years of ronald reagan, and the capstone of it, clearly a memory now is the berlin wall speech, but it was all that led up to it that counts. >> yes. >> i think what's been sort of touched on here is that obviously relationships were very important during this time period and you had great relationships with gorbachev and thatcher and they all worked together very closely during this time, and i don't know if

you maybe had reservations or if you know president reagan had reservations when the torch was passed to president h.w. bush and kind of how different he was in terms of being, you know, more reserved and not as outgoing and not as engaged in the relationship aspect of it and kind of during that time period obviously everything was set in motion, but i don't know if you had any personal feelings about that. >> good question. first of all, personal relationships, even among heads of state, are fundamentally important. president reagan was very close obviously to margaret thatcher, as we all know. he also felt very strongly about helmut kohl. he also felt very strongly about brian mulroney of canada. he had not the same feelings about francois mitterand of france. [ laughter ]

he had a strong relationship and friendship with mikhail gorbachev. one of the other famous lines of reagan was the russian proverb that he used all the time. trust but verify, and that's what symbolized his relationship with gorbachev. we used to kid inside the white house that president reagan, god help us, trusted everybody, and nancy reagan and i were the verifiers. he had an awful lot of faith in his vice president, in george herbert walker bush. he thought he was the right person to carry on his presidency, into george herbert

walker bush's presidency. he knew that the relationship with the then soviet union would be solid. that's why we brought george herbert walker bush with us. there is a great photo, i'm sure you have in your archives, it's the only time i was ever allowed to play advance man in the white house. when we went to governor's island in new york harbor, since i came from new york city, from brooklyn, new york, the backdrop of governor's island is the statue of liberty. what symbolized that lunch was gorbachev flanked by reagan and bush which appeared in all the newspapers, all the front pages, ""time"" magazine when it was a thick magazine and "newsweek." that became the symbol. he had no qualms about george

herbert walker bush. he knew what his values were, and he knew where he would take the country in the aftermath of eight years of reagan. it is now public from somebody, but president reagan, usually every president leaves their successor a note, a piece of advice. ronald reagan could not help but leave george herbert walker bush two pieces of advice. one downstairs and one upstairs in the residence. don't let the turkeys wear you down. keep the faith. does that answer your question? >> yes, thank you. >> we have time for one more question, please. >> well, since we -- since you already fixed the problem of the

berlin wall of separating two places like the east berlin and the west, if there's something like that happens again, like what you do the same thing -- would you do the same thing as -- as you did with the berlin wall, or would you do something else? >> i think you need to have values as a country that are preeminent and predominant. what ronald reagan stood for was the consistency of america's purpose. there's no time for waffling. there's no time for indirection. there is time to talk to your adversaries, as well as your allies. it is time to put pressure on in a concerted way so that america doesn't go alone but america leads, and certainly ronald reagan did that, and he would do it again if he was confronted with another situation like that god awful wall.

>> thank you very much for your questions, and, ken, i want to thank you very much for sharing this historic occasion with us and the great light you shed on the history of that moment, and certainly president reagan's words, tear down this wall, were inspirational and had great impact, and i think the end of the speech also proved prophetic. the wall did fall. the wall did not withstand faith. the wall did not withstand truth, and the wall did not withstand freedom. and we're so grateful that you would take the time to be with us here at the museum sponsored by the freedom forum. these are values we all hold dear, and you played a pivotal role in world history. we're grateful for your public service and for your time today. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you all.

[ applause ] you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3. for more information, follow us on twitter at c-span history. >> each week american history tv's "american artifacts" visits historic places. during the civil war, confederate president jefferson davis and his family lived in this mansion in richmond, virginia. >> the davises needed a large room for a nursery because when they moved in, they had three young children. there was maggie, who was 6, jefferson davis jr., who was 4, and joe who was 2, and mrs. davis was pregnant when they moved in. she gave birth in december of 1861 upstairs.

unfortunately, their first child samuel had died in 1854 right before his second birthday, so he obviously never saw this house. these were young wild kids, by all accounts. the wildest was certainly jefferson davis jr., and we have a couple of his things in this room. this is one of them. it's a fully functioning cannon, so it was a real cannon. he also had several confederate army uniforms, and that's one of them over there. so what he would do would be to put one of those uniforms on. he'd take the cannon out in the back. he'd set up targets that he would call yankees, and he would shoot them with the cannon. now, jefferson davis jr. and his brother joseph were in a street gang called the shocko hill cats. we are standing on shocko hill. this house is on top of shocko hill, and this is a wealthy urban residential neighborhood at that time, so these were the rich kids in this gang. now, down the hill was a less

wealthy urban residential neighborhood called butcher town, and that was the hometown of the butcher cats, the archenemies of the hill cats up here, so these two gangs would fight each other all the time, and one day jefferson davis himself walked down the hill trying to work out a truce between the two gangs. he was tired of his -- excuse me, his sons coming home bruised and bloodied from the gang wars, so he gathered the butcher cats around. he sat them down, gave them a speech and called them the future rulers of their country and tried to get them to stop fighting and to put aside their differences, and they listened to him politely. one of them stood up and said, president, we leak you. we didn't want to hurt any of your boys, but we ain't never going to be friends with them hill cats. so so much for that. davis turned around. walked back up the hill, and as his wife wrote later, like many a self-appointed peace-maker, he accomplished nothing except an exhausting walk.

wild kids. unfortunately, though, the boys didn't live very long. jefferson davis jr. died at 21 from yellow fever and the other died at ten from diphtheria and joseph died at 10 in this room in 1864. joseph was playing around on the eastern portico and he fell off of it. that was then a 15-foot drop, about twice what it would be today, and he hit his head, and he was found still alive and carried up into this room and he died here about an hour later at the age of 5. the two girls did a little bit better. verena ann lived to be 34. she at least survived her father, although not her mother. she died from complications from malaria. maggie died at 54, so she was the only one to survive both parents, although just barely. she died in 1990 just three years after her mother's death. maggie, however, was also the only one to get married, and the only one to have children. >> this was a preview of