italian. he's very measured. but there were times when he could get emotional. there was no doubt that john and his staff understood what had to be done. that was the relationship. but, again, there was such incredible truch between great differences of opinion. again, these were monumental decision. i remember the night -- moving off of your subject for a minute -- i remember the night we had to send a letter to the plt. i mean, the debate went deep into the night. do you actually send a letter to the president of the united states? every day we had to make these kinds of decisions. we had no guidance. so all of these things, every legal issue had to be discussed, fall through, talked out.

and you're dealing with an intellectually powerful staff on both sides of the aisle. just powerful. intellectually powerful people in terms of their intellectual help. and then you had to bring the political process into this. there was a lot of debate. i don't think there was an easy day in this process from the day it began to the day it ended. >> from the start of the letter, this comes after the white house has issued its transcripts. and interviewed senator -- former senator cowen who wanted to participate -- >> braugt to tought to the chai office. >> this was a really hard event for him. he felt sort of left in the cold here. do you remember? it must have been -- he was here only, at that point, the only

republican ally on this particular issue. >> correct. right. and he had been courted by -- courted is the wrong word. but he certainly had access to the congressman. there had been conversations. and, of course, the congressman, again, he thought he'd be important -- even though he was a young member. he thought that mr. cowen could be helped. but the draft of the letters weren't the same? >> no, it wasn't. >> you're smiling. >> it's called politics. >> the democratic members needed

to be satisfied. >> correct. >> also, i think the congressman decided what the correct letter had to be. he was deeply appreciative of congressman cowen at the time. >> let's talk a bit about the tapes. did you listen to any of them? >> um-hmm. >> what effect did they have on you? >> not much. i tried -- the congressman asked me a couple of times to listen to the tapes. and i tried not to -- in this process, again, this was going back. i tried not to get -- i didn't want to get personal. in other words, i wanted to keep a distance in this. you know, someone remarked to me and, you know, which i think is a compliment and i totally forget. they said you never said an antinixon word.

all of these years later, they were telling me that. it was a reporter years ago. all of these years, all of those times we covered you, you never said a word about nixon. ever. and i think that came from the chairman. it also came from a personal thing. but to get there, you had to keep some distance. so i wasn't very curious about the tapes. i wasn't that curious. it wasn't where i fit in. so i sort of stayed out. so i didn't have any opinion.

>> the chairman did? >> yes, he did. he was boggled. >> can you tell us more? >> he wasbothered by the language. he was bothered by the tone. i think he was surprised about president nixon. a lot of tapes surprise d -- i don't know. a lot of the tapes. some of the tapes come back and we'd talk a little bit about it at night. >> he was bothered by it. he just didn't think some of the things -- he was very proper. we never talked about the substance of the tapes.

but i can tell he's just bothered by some of the tapes. >> did you see a sort of a shift in his position. >> no. whatever he and i talked about never went beyond he and i. and it's just from day one to that last day, it's just not what his views were. but he tried to keep this, intellectually, as best as he could, he tried to keep centered. >> was it hard for him to keep centered? >> not really.

he was not very -- i mean, obviously, he was strong. but he was not very bipartisan. so it didn't fit his personality. and i think the obligation so overwhelmed him and put such a weight on him and i think an important quality to all of us happened. he was very fearful. i think it's a wonderful e moes to have. he didn't have time to get out and, you know, and be boothered by this. the whole thing was so overwhelming. >> i apologize for the analogy, but you were like a canary in the light shed. when you were out talking to these conservative democrats, when did you start seeing a

shift? obviously, they ultimately vote against president nixon. it's a very slow process. >> and we talk about that. but never publicly. never to the staff. to john's staff, actually. about where we thought these people were. that was the conversation that was very deeply held. and it may have gone -- though the knowledge is it may have gone to the speaker, but he never -- i mean, we sort of knew where the case was at a certain point. >> the voting starts july 27th. that was a long time ago.

now, do you think you had a majority for an article? article one? >> yes. >> did you think that a month before. >> a week before? >> i don't remember. we had talked about it as those nights approached. those days approached. he thought that the case had been made. he thought a case had been made against the president. and he thought that he was so important to the democrats that they believed that the case had been made. >> when cowen and hogan are meeting flowers, is somebody telling you about that?

>> we had a good relationship. we met very long. we had a good relationship. so we talk. we got a sense of where people were. he talked to the chairman, flowers would, not to me. >> i've seen the images of the debate. flowers would be very emotional. he was very e maegsal. >> very. tell us a little bit about other kinds of fears? this is a very tense time in washington. >> well, it was an incredible time. it's hard for americans to think now. we had some of the most senior members of the administration go to prison being charged with serious crimes.

and there was fear. there was fear on my part that we're going to go to jail. that sounds crazy, but, man. you couldn't trust the f.b.i., you couldn't just your government, was our feeling. it just didn't affect -- we're one thing. but we had to sort of separate all of these out from our duty. but we're citizens. we're living in washington, d.c. and there's no doubt we thought we were kind of tapped. we just took that as a course. we just had to be extremely

cautious in how we conduct our business. >> did you have some conversations outdoors so that you wouldn't be heard? >> we had conversations everywhere. i don't remember. just cautious on what you said. i thought -- again, i thought this was the most -- it was obviously an extraordinary experience. but the pressure was just so overwhelming. you were drained at the end. it wasn't a very han pi experience. there was nothing pleasurable about doing this. my responsibleties, least of all, i was a young staffer.

it was these members. i don't think anybody thought it was a great experience. i think historically, they did an incredible thing, you know, this process to go through and that the american public accepted this process. >> do you remember anything from the moments after article one was passed? >> i think it was in the back. it was a committee problem. i don't remember. did you know how the chairman looked? >> he was exhausted. he came back and he cried after it was over.

it was just an emotional experience. there were other times he cried during the process. but it was a very emotional night, that i remember. >> can you recall another time he cried? >> he was italian. so he's very emotional. he cried a number of times. there were a cup of times he had fears. it was the pressure and the emotion of the whole process, sort of the darkest days of this process where there was just a lot of pressure on all of us. >> you know, when i told them this was going to be televised, that's another story.

>> we're going to change tapes and then we'll talk about that story. we'll wrap up shortly afterwards. >> okay. >> the congressman's views of president nixon shaped the way that you handled this? no, i don't think so. i think clearly he's a democrat. and he would vote for a democratic candidate. but when this was thrust upon him, his view was the institution of the presidency. and being who he was, he had just extraordinary respect and awe for the presidency. that this was the center of everything he believed in as a pay trot. so nixon, in a sense, was just a holder of that institution. but he felt what he was being asked to do and what the house was being asked to do, what

congress was being asked to do was to be a holder of this institution. he felt the institution, above all, had to be protected. and he didn't have any -- he didn't have the visceral feelings about nixon. i think as i said earlier, there was some disappointment when you hear the tapes. but those are personal disappointments about his language. but he didn't have that partisan anger that was so prevalent amongst the democratic party. he never voiced that kind of view. this would be before or after. but there was great disappointment that he felt this individual would abuse the office. but it was more of just

appointment in president nixon than anyone else. >> how important is it that he was an immigrant? >> extremely important. i think it formed his whole view. here was an opportunity for a young man to come to this country. it's all in cliches. he embodied all of the cliches. he could be anything. he would put marbles in his mouth. but to be able to anunsuate, he wanted to be american. that's what he wanted. he wanted to be an american and be a patriot. always wore a little flag on his lapel.

here he was. he was groomed for this. for this task. >> thank you. tell us about the decision to put cameras? >> well, he always said to me that i wound up having to -- i never met a press person in my life until i got to the office. never. i had no contact with pressmen. and every day, out in front of the office would be 25 or 30 pressmen every day. it was everybody. it was just sort of constant. but, i must say the quality of the press men were extraordinary.

some of the great reporters of our time covered this story. and he always said to me, that was sort of left to me that all the press contacts, press conversation, once in a while you would get a conversation with the chairman and john doehr. and all the pressmen would make fun of him because they had no information. but we'd do it every once in a while we'd have a little press gathering. you have to remember. we have to explain what we're doing. >> so on a regular basis, we had to let the public know what's going on. why this was being done. and, so, as this was going on, i just sort of thought in my mind, well, this is going to be televised, obviously.

i mean, when the hearings actually take place, the american public has to do it. it was very interesting. it was very formed by the water gate hearings. as you remember, it was very chaotic. there were cameras and all of that kind of stuff. so i had this visual idea that when we, as citizens, came to view this, i wanted them to feel intimacy that they and their member were in a conversation. so i wanted everything that remotely looked like a television or a cable, i want it gone. i had this very clean view. so can you imagine doing this today?

so i went to the networks and i said this is my vision. i said this is my vision. i want this. i don't want any cameras. so they proceeded. and, of course, i was taking the task for this because i had not asked for the speaker's aproouflt. in the committee room, it was on the first floor. so i i had them build -- i did not want any cameras behind the members where you and i could see it. so they had to build a room outside where they would place the equipment. and then there was curtains blind the members. and then there would be little holes. and then in the back of the room there would be a stand out.

and they bought all of this. at their own expense, they said absolutely. so if you look at it, if you look at the hearings on television, i doubt if you'll see any cameras, television cameras. but that was sort of the idea. so that's sort of the mechanics of how it was -- the important thing is to televise. i know john was very nervous about this decision. the congressman was last -- i mean, this is his world. but then the decision was made that we were televised and the rest was the rest.

there was some discussion around that but it was after it was all done. >> francis, i've got to ask you this. you told us about the role that if congressman plays, the chairman. did the chairman want to be televised? >> i can't recall. he wanted the public to understand that he came from an era before television. so i guess if he had his sort of wishes, i suppose he may have chosen something else. >> francis, are you telling us that you went to new york and met with network executives without having permission to even televise these things?

>> i did go to new york. i did meet with all of the executives. i did meet with the correspondents and off of this, yes. >> it was a pretty gutsy thing to do. >> yeah, but this came out of the relationship with the congress. my role as a staffer, never, ever would i have done anything that was not, i think, without his approval in the sense of understanding what his core was. he constantly said to me. this is a public. this must be approved by the country. i just don't think he ever carried it to that in other words, i felt very strong that i was carrying out his wishes. i just don't think he understood the technology on how to do

that. >> was this an o'brien brother's idea? >> no, i can't blame my brother. i can't believe the networks did this. >> well, again, when you described the door and selection process, when you describe them, when you describe the door selection process, it's a little impar vised. there's something very professional about this vision for the room. had you been interested about production before? >> no. and i think back and now you reach a certain age. i think some things you're just good at and some things you're not. and i think i was lucky enough to be, you know, i was born with certain -- i don't know how you

wind up with certain skills. a and, you know, not intellectual skills. but i have good intellectual skills. i think i had a great mentor in the congressman. i've lerped so much that i've carried through the rest of my life. but i don't know why -- in other words, i don't think i made the same decisions today. i don't think i would have done the things -- and maybe it's youth. and, so, looking back, you say well, that was a good decision. in other words, i don't know how it winds up that way. whether you're good at things or not good. i just knew what bothered me about the water gate hearings was all of these cameras. and i just felt -- it was circusy for me. that was all. i thought it was a common sense.

and, again, this is not my hearing. it sort of fit his demeanor. i think i'm pretty good about that. i think i'm very good at putting myself into other people's place. that's where he is. in other words, it reflected him. it reflect flekted the institution. >> why would he know how to do that? >> now, you brought up this issue of televising the proceedings. i mean, that's how you brought it. so, yeah. he and john were pretty upset with me.

it's already done. >> wait a second. i thought it was a fact-finding mission. >> it was being built. >> i'm sorry. i shouldn't whisper. >> i got yelled at. there's no doubt about it, i got yelled at. >> now, what did the committee members think? >> we never asked. >> they didn't know they were going to be on tv? >> we have to tell the audience. they won't know this because this is a c-span world. >> the water gate hearings were on. it wasn't like me. he said this decision, whatever it may be, had to be approved by the american sit zens.

i'm thinking how else would you do this? there had to be a sense of openness. he had me two out every day and meet with all of these press people and keeping them informed without talking about the proceedings. there had to be some trust that i had built up with this reporter. you had to give people context. >> you had to deal with them. there were great reports. jim naughton, actually, it's in the post that was not one of the major -- they were the major paper on the water gaet. but they sort of didn't quite understand the -- this wasn't an investigation.