hypothetical, all of a sudden you saw them trying to escape the language of the tapes, the 24 or 48 or 72 hours that had passed since they heard the tapes, they came in with all sorts of rationalizations, of course we answered that with a lot of things and this friendly discussion, i mean we were the staff, there was a committee. but i -- oh, my god, this is going to be-this is going to be a tough sell. i said, so i was really concerned about how this thing was going to come out at the time. and then -- listen to hillary's story. sort of that evening or just about that time, i had a big, remember i still was you know better economic position than most -- i was older, i was one of the oldest people on the staff. it was a very young staff, i was

36 years old. i was 37 during the impeachment. i was an old man, compared to the others. and since i had a car and this is washington in the '70s in sort of a dangerous place, it was my job to drop the staff members off at night. so i would haul people in my car at 11:00, 12:00 at night and i would just drop them off and go to my little apartment that i had. one night i'm dropping all these people out. and one person to call that night was hillary rodham, she was a hard worker and really aggressive and really smart. so anyway, i'm driving, and she's in the car along with me and i'm driving to where she lives, she was living with a woman named sarah irman.

i'm sort of pulling up to a place, not quite there yet, and she says to me, i want you to meet my boyfriend, he's coming in tomorrow, or something like that. i said, oh, great, she said what's his name. she said bill clinton, i met him in law school, and we have been going out. she said you got to meet him. i said that's great, i would be happy to meet him. i liked hillary a lot. i would be happy to meet him. oh, yeah, he just graduated, what firm is he going to? he's not going to a firm, he's going into politics he's going to be the senator of arkansas. or the governor or something of arkansas and he'll be president of the united states. and i look at this woman, this

26-year-old woman and i say -- and i remember to this day, i say, what have i gotten myself into. i am now a senior person on the staff, i'm sort of in charge of the tapes, i present these tapes to the committee, these tapes are devastating evidence with respect to the impeachment, the committee hears it and realizing it and it comes back later and rationalized them away. we're not going to be able to make the case. we're going to be looked upon as the dumbest lawyers in history not being able to make the case, and doar refuses to hire people that i want down here, real trial lawyers who could help me make this case. he hires a bunch of kids, really bright kids, one of these kids is sitting next to me, very bright, never really tried a case or anything, and now she's telling me her boyfriend's going to be president of the united states.

this is nut, so i blow up, i start screaming at her. i said that's idiotic. i said, that's the stupidest thing i ever heard. what kind of a child are you, when you're saying president of the united states. i started screaming. i guess all this frustration away from home, the tapes and the committee, not hiring certain people, i start screaming at her because she tells me her boyfriend is going to be president. i said what about your children? and she looks at me, she glares, we pulled up to this place and i still resh, she looked at me, she glares at me, she says to me, she gets really mad. and she said, you're an [ bleep ] she says to me. you don't know what the [ bleep ] you're talking about. this guy's great, you know, you haven't even met him and you're just a big jerk or something and she opens the door and slams the door and goes into her place.

i'm sort of blaming myself, i said what did i do? she says her boyfriend's going to be president, why should i get so upset about it. i was very upset. so the next day i go into the office, the first thing i do is seek her out to apologize. i was going to apologize to her, i was also her superior so to speak, but i was screaming at her. before i could apologize, she comes and apologizes to me for saying, so we apologize to each other. we make up immediately and then she brings in this tall, good looking guy who i never met named bill clinton and he comes in and i chat with him for a while, i don't say anything, somebody said he was running for congress or something that year. i said oh, good luck. i don't want to start anymore more fighting with bill clinton or hillary rodham, his girlfriend.

and you know, we greet and then it's the last i see of him at that particular point in time. because as time goes on. before -- at the end of the impeachment, after president nixon resigned, she tells me she's going to arkansas. i'm trying to talk her out of going to arkansas. a nice guy, i'm not telling her what to do with her romantic life. but i tell her not to go. but she goes and he runs for congress that year in 1974, and he loseses, but not by very much. he ran against a guy who was in office for eight terms or something like that. loses by about four or fife percentage points. he's 27 years old at the time.

the next year, i get a letter from her, saying he's running for attorney general. of arkansas and when i said in the contribution, i'm not going to fight with hillary anymore, i sent her a contribution right away. i'm packing up my law firm now so i have money. and sure enough, he wins as attorney general. two years later, he runs for governor, and she gets in touch with me and asks me to contribute, to help, so i do, a little bit. and actually i was in touch with her over the years also because my firm was using that firm on certain major matters. so i'm sort of in touch with her, not very much. so i contributed to the 1980 race, and of course he's elected governor. and i'm thinking, oh, my god, this is crazy. and she -- i can't go because of

the big trial so i never went to a gubernatorial race. and two years later, he runs for governor again in 1982, and he loses. i said, see, i knew i was right. you should have gone to a law firm. and he runs for governor two years after that and he wins. >> tomorrow a congressional gold medal ceremony for the first african-american marines known as the montfort point marines. speaking at the ceremony, house speaker john boehner, house minority leader, nancy pelosi and senate leaders harry reid and mitch mcconnell. that's tomorrow at 10:00 at cspan. >> the live of a sailor included scrubbing the deck in the morning, working on the sails, climbing aloft.

whatever the duties assigned, gun drill practice, by the end of the day, you're ready forrest. but you don't get a full night of sleep, on a ship like this one is four hours on, four hours off. >> the sailor lived in fear of the possibility of being whipped with a cat of nine tails. it was always carried by a petdy officer in a bag. and the sailor never wanted to see a petty officer -- don't let the cat out of the bag, you don't want to see the cat of nine tails coming out of the bag for a flogging. >> also this weekend, more from the contenders, our key political figure who is ran for president and lost, but changed political history. 1920 democratic candidate former new york governor al smith. >> and we continue now with the

oral history of bernard us in balm. he served in the house on the house judiciary -- this second portion is just over an hour. >> 1988. >> 1988. hillary came into -- i think she had other business in new york though she wanted to see me. she comes into new york, we had dinner together. she says bill's thinking of running for president. now, this is 1988. this was 14 years after that conversation we had in the car. and bill clinton at this point i think is 43 years old. 1988, he was born in '46. how old is he in 1988. >> he's -- he's 42. >> 42. he's 42 years old in 1988. 42. she tells me that -- she's the

same age, no, a year younger. she was born in '47. he's thinking of running for president and she doesn't want me to commit to support anybody else. as if my support for anybody makes any difference which although i've been a contributor to political campaigns, it makes no difference. i say to her very tentatively. so i say the to her, hillary, i know we discussed this in the past, something like that, but he may be tentative now, he may be kind of young, 42 years old. to run for president. though john kennedy ran when he was 42, 43. she says well, he's deciding. just don't support anybody else. okay. i'm not supporting anybody else. and a week later i get a call from her, i believe, yeah i did, saying he's not running. so i said well. i ended up supporting michael

dukakis in 1988 to great effect as you can tell. actually i went to the convention in 1988, and i was on the floor of the convention and when bill clinton spoke, made what turned out to be a disastrous speech which i was there when he made -- i didn't know he was going to speak. and then in 1992, or 1991, 1991, october 1991, 20 years ago, from not today but from this month, i get a call from a partner in goldman-sachs saying we have to have -- i get a call saying there's going to be a meeting, we're going to have to have a meeting shortly -- i know this partner -- to see if we can raise money for bill clinton who is going to run for president. hillary says you're on board. hillary never called me, never asked me anything. it's 1991. i had not heard from her 18 while. she hasn't called me.

ken brodie, the partner of goldman sacs called me. he says you're on board, let's have this meeting and see if we can raise some money for clinton. so i go down to this meeting. this meeting is in tom tisch's office who is a republican. wasn't at the meeting. in his office. there's six people sitting around in this meeting. and -- and brodie's there and i'm there and four other people. i don't remember, they were investment bankers, maybe one lawyer. there's very few people. they say well, we could have -- you know, we're here to discuss the governor of arkansas bill clinton to raise some money and one of the guys says who is bill clinton? at this meeting. governor of arkansas. he's -- may run for president. he said i'm a republican. he's a democrat? and then somebody says, this is like five or six weeks -- somebody says i'm listening to this, somebody says what, this

is crazy he says. nobody ever heard of this guy. i mean, how are we going to raise money for this guy. this is nuts. only because the goldman partner asked him to come. some governor from arkansas. and i get agitated at this point. i say, this is what you're going to tell people. this is how you're going to raise money for the governor of arkansas. go out and tell people when they see him, and when they meet him and when they hear him speak and when they see the quality of his mind, charisma n tell against, his good looks even, you are going to tell people this guy is going to be president of the united states. they are contributing early to somebody as president of the united states. all they have to do is see it and come into contact and he's going to win. i said that to rouse him up.

all right. so then we had a party, and a fancy apartment on sutton place and clinton showed up and hillary who i had not seen in a while. and we started raising money at that party. and the rest is history. okay. you want to go back to the tapes? >> i'll go back to the tapes. >> you heard these tapes, the special prosecutor hands them over in a satchel. >> yes. that's right. >> and that's in march? >> march of 1974. >> and then in april, somebody decides to enhance them, right, because it's hard to hear them. >> yes. correct. it's hard to hear certain parts. yes, it was hard to hear but we -- the special prosecutor, did he send up transcripts? i don't remember.

but the white house did release the transcripts and this became an issue because the white house transcripts weren't accurate in certain key portions. whether it was deliberately inaccurate or what, i don't know. people like buzz hart and others they were under tremendous pleasure. 18 years later i was in the white house. you might think the white house is an efficient place. it's not true. poor fred. a handful at the white house. >> if for whatever reason, the transcripts they released were inaccurate, then we made it our business to put together accurate transcripts, then presented that to the committee, obviously. >> to demonstrate that what we were given was not accurate.

when they can draw whatever they want to draw from that. obviously we weren't in the face of drawing favorite conclusions. >> it was after the white house. >> that you start the process. >> correct. >> and what kinds of checks and balances did you put into that practice to make sure they're accurate? >> we just devoted -- we just devoted a lot of time, people really made an effort to get it right. once we realized the others were wrong, the way i remember it, this is somewhat vague so i don't want to over state this. but we really wanted to get it right. also we wanted to be fair. i mean, it's not -- look. we were good people. but we had a committee to deal with. we had republicans as well as democrats. this is not special prosecutor's

office, independent council, things like that, you have stew answer to no one. we had to answer to a committee and the committee, while it was the democrats won a majority. there were conservative democrats. jim mann, walter flowers, people like that. key members of the committee. these are democrats, by no means who is constituency, south carolina and alabama, would by no means certain to vote for impeachment putting aside the republicans so. what we were trying to do was get it right. make sure it was as accurate as possible. when they make a decision they can make it in a coherent factual accurate fashion. that's big -- even i didn't think of that till recently. we really were working for both

the republicans and the -- sure, it was a republican staff that worked for jenner, then sam guerinson. we had a republican staff working with us, that's one of the great things is meld the staffs together. we wanted -- we were being questioned all the time whether this should be done or that should be done or what the consequences of this is and of that, how do you analyze this and that. this is a very important concept to understand during that impeachment. this is a real joint effort but also an effort where we were subject to checks and balances. as we had to be. so we try to get it right. i think we did get it right. >> some people have remembered

the tapes having a major impact on burt jenner. on his thinking. >> yeah, i think that incident with my recollection. jenner also, look. bert jenner, he was the way i remember him, a wonderful man, a wonderful guy, a prominent and well known lawyer. created a great firm, jenner and block. he wanted to do the right thing. he wasn't out to get the president as some republicans accused him of and pushed him aside. he was out to do sort of an independent fair investigation. and wherever the facts lead the facts lead. that's the way i felt and i think that's the way daal felt also. but he did feel like that. once we got the tapes, talked to some of the people yeah, we did

conclude that impeachment wasn't appropriate. it took a while and for jenna to get there too. and i think the tapes had a big influence on all of us. that's why the irony is if the tapes wouldn't have been there, who knows what would have happened. >> when you put together the subpoenas were you hopeful or optimistic or just felt you had to do it but you didn't think the white house was going to give you anything. >> well, i was -- the way i remember it, one of the key people, not the only, no person was totally in charge of anything other than dole in charge of doors. i was one of the key figures in putting together the subpoenas and led to article three which i was deeply involved in. we felt we had to do it and felt we were entitled to the material. and knowing the way the white

house was reacting, we felt they would stone wall us. they wanted to turn this into a political process. this was a huge battle. this is a political fight. and when the democrats are trying to do is impeach the process, really just to reverse the last election. and we were resisting that so we were trying to get the facts. and we were trying to keep the republicans -- tried to satisfy them that we were try to do it in a fair way. but the white house was stonewalled the committee. and did stonewall the committee to a large extent. the mistake the president made was having an independent counsel and special prosecutor who then took him to court and secures the tapes. in effect. although it's my view as i expressed to you on another occasion, that the supreme court and the united states supreme,

nixon probably made the wrong decision in ordering the tapes. that the president's executive privilege, except in impeachment. that's the right way. it probably wouldn't have come out but the way it came out what i considered a right was what followed. the president did decide to turn over the tapes. which in retrospect was probably an historic mistake from his point of view. and turning over the tapes resulted in the impeachment of the president. if he destroyed the tapes he probably would not have been impeached. maybe i'm wrong. actually i hope i'm wrong on that. who knows. he did turn them over, we did get them and presented them to the committee but he laid it all out. the tapes, combined with all the other facts we gathered, all collated, not only to take

credit or have our staff take credit for sort of uncovering all of these facts. there is nothing i remember that we uncovered that wasn't obtained from somebody else. what dora understood, our process was to gather, to collate. >> you made the case before you had the smoking gun. >> yes. we made the case. i did actually. that's a ver-- we described to the committee and i was involved in that along with others. what we thought happened. on the basis of witnesses we had talked to or seen or heard, on the basis of documents we have seen. what probably happened at these meetings. in one committee session we were giving our analysis, based on other things. when you put these together this will probably happen. and the tapes confirmed it. it confirmed it.

i remember feeling so proud. and i wasn't the only one doing this. others on the watergate task force, we were putting together. chronologies are very important. john dole was big on chronology, he's right. they are important. this fact, this event, this date. and it was a good way of doing it. and then there was certain gaps, to use a famous word, then we had a show to use to fill in the guests. what the president probably did at this point. probably said here. a view of what was said before and we sort of provided that analysis of the committee even though we didn't have direct evidence of that and when the tapes came out, the tapes provided direct evidence. i mean, dean's testimony was very important. it was very important to study events that occurred.

we used that to help us create this matrix of facts. ultimately it did work. it was a wonderful process. as i saw us convince, you know, i saw us convince the conservative democrats who were very important here. in fact, you mentioned the walter flowers from alabama whose conditions were very pro and the jim manz of south carolina, people like that were important. and we reached them and would be desperate not to have a partisan committee vote. even reaching them i don't know, 17-14 or something. i think that would have been the figures, the democrat and republican split, that would have been a disaster.

disaster is too strong a term. it was the wrong way to go about it. of course it happened the year the clinton impeachment in 1998. but we really, it works to be accepted by the country, by history, for the good of the country. we really felt we drilled so hard. to achieved bipartisanship in this thing. and i give a lot of credit. bill said two key figures. just handle it right. it was useful to have me, aggressive. i wanted to you know, to go hard and once i was convince there had was a case to be made. but their balance, their judgment i think really kept this process going along the right direction. and i'm very proud. not only we reached southern democrats which were important,

the conservative democrats, and also the republicans. all of a sudden we started reaching some of the republicans. bill cohen and tom rails back and people like that who then spoke really from the heart. it was a moving thing to see that. then of course after the smoking gun tape came out, the june 18th tape, that's when the president had to resign. the whole committee sort of, i mean, the whole committee decided impeachment was appropriate. some of the key republicans, wiggins was very able advocate on the committee. well, on the republican side. he became a judge, wiggins. in the ninth circuit, i think. very able. different. >> you must have seen the emotions. >> there was. i do remember the emotion. particularly on the republican side.

that's where the emotion was. the republicans voted for impeachment in the final analysis. we're very torn. they understood they were in the process of potentially bringing down a republican president and -- and there was agony in their faces. because many of them, this is true, i used to have these discussions. even in your our staff, especially with the republican members of a staff. a very intelligent guy. he got into trouble after the impeachment. he was, bruce jenner pushed aside by the republicans because they felt he wasn't republican enough. partisan enough. garrison was quite intelligent guy. and garrison expressed the view that even if some of these things happened and even if