and there's no rationality with them. there's no reasoning with them. they have an objestinate vision and you cannot run with them based on reasoning. >> senator mondale, we've talked about how lyndon johnson operated when he was the majority leader. but you were in the senate when he was president. what was it like there? i mean how did you feel his president -- tom johnson, who is sitting out here in the audience told me one time that johnson had the name and the phone number of every single member of congress on his desk. and he called people directly. and he said, when it was a big issue, he would have cardinal cushing calling the catholics and he would have jack valenti trying to call the pope if he thought it would help.

what was it like to be in the senate, were you ever on the other end when johnson needed something and you maybe weren't quite ready to give it to him? >> i called him several times with things i wanted. i was always prepared, because i knew he was busy, i didn't want to take up too much of his time. and every time he would talk so long i would begin to worry about my time. and he never gave me a damn thing. we just had conversation. and but i was honored to be talked to that way. i've got one story that joe knows about i was handling fair housing on the senate floor. we had five cloture votes and in those days you needed 67 votes if everybody was there. and on the fifth cloture vote, mike mansfield said, this is your last one now. you've taken up a month here. there's no more time. and we were one vote short.

we were almost -- we couldn't get that one vote. so i went to hubert and he said, what do i do? he said call the president. so i called president johnson. i think i got him in puerto rico. i explained my situation. and i said, you know, there's a senator up there in alaska, bob bartlett, who never votes for cloture, but he could. it wouldn't hurt him on this one. but he doesn't want to. but he also wants an auditorium in anchorage. and the phone clicked off. he stopped talking to me and i, and bob bartlett voted for cloture the next morning. and a month later, there was an announcement at this new auditorium in anchorage. >> what was his relationship like with humphrey?

after humphrey? because i know you were very close to humphrey. >> you know, hubert and i, i loved hubert. and i was thrilled when he became vice president. i would say in retrospect, he would be better off if he hadn't been vice president. he had a great career in the senate. everybody loved him. this was really tough. he wrote a memo to then president johnson as the new vice president, warning limb about the war in vietnam. as one of the most prescient, carefully reasoned, possible documents for the possible to read. and the president took it as an insult and froze humphrey out of any meaningful involvement in the johnson administration for the better part of a half a year. it was very painful.

and humphrey felt it deeply and i'm afraid humphrey wandered around and tried to do even better at supporting the war. to try get back into the president's graces. the president, humphrey writes about this, in his own autobiography, it's really painful couple of pages. and i, i don't think humphrey, humphrey loved johnson, but i don't think he ever got over that treatment. >> you know, i will tell one more story. in order to get an airplane to fly the vice president, humphrey would have to send a note in to johnson and say, i need an airplane for this. and then two blocks, yes or no, on there. and sometimes the letter would come back, no. no explanation. this sort of thing was painful. >> he was a man capable of grand gestures and small cruelties. >> on humphrey, he told, he told

a story once. he said, you know, the difference between humphrey and me, sitting in the rocker. he said walter reuther had come in and said, you know, if you don't find a way to rebuild the cities we're going to burn the cities down and it was tough meeting. the president had with limb. he said walter reuther comes in here to see hubert and says -- if you don't do something we're going to burn the cities down. he said reuther, the head of the united auto workers, had a crippled hand because it had been shot during a demonstration. always kept his right hand in his pocket. he said hubert kept smiling with while reuther is talking and he's trying to figure out how can i get walter reuther out to take his hand out of his pocket so i can shake hands with him. reuther comes in here and tells me if we don't find a way it

rebuild the cities, we're going to burn them down. i'm sitting in here, i'm smiling, i'm looking at that hand, trying to get his hand out of his pocket so i can cut his balls off. he said that's the difference between hubert and me. >> but i think we have to point out, though, that the relationship between the president and a vice president is an inherently difficult relationship. here is someone who is waiting for you to exit the stage. someone who may have been your rival, someone who may have been equally distinguished in public life. barbara bush complained that the reagans had never invited the bushes to a state dinner in the white house. al gore and bill clinton were rumored to have a certain amount of friction in their relationship. it is an inherently difficult relationship. and i think presidents are interestinged in spite of the better angels of their nature, in keeping the vice president somewhat humbled.

so he he may have been unique in his skill at keeping people humbled. but he was not unique in the desire. >> let me ask you, bill, you would have known better -- >> i don't think, johnson was humbled. when he was kennedy's vice president. i was in the pentagon in those years. i remember, i got, i was served at the white house, that's how i met bill and jack valenti and all of those guys. i was told one day, valenti called and said anything that the vice president asks for, i mean -- i'm sorry, kenny o'donnell called and said, anything the vice president asks for from the pentagon, you got to clear it here. anything. you know, a plane ride, an extra aides or what have you. i thought, well, you know when johnson becomes president, having been subjected to that. it will be another world. it was a very short time before valenti called with the same

instruction. you lived in those vice presidential years. >> yes, but i had left to help organize the peace corps, i was close to shriver. whose deputy i became -- senator mondale, what's your thought? >> those of us supporting humphrey thought exactly that. the convention was one night, the big night was his birthday. and if the convention had decided to go for -- lyndon, it would have been a birthday party. we, by the time the convention

got started, we didn't have any opponents any more. some of it for tragic reasons, but we -- we should have been the clear putative nominee so we could have made a more successful convention. >> the people with the president did not let up, on almost anything. we tried to get a compromise on the vietnam war, and we had the kennedy people -- there was a chance that we could have built a bridge there. and but they wouldn't, they wouldn't let it happen. and it was only that night when humphrey gave his acceptance speech and you came up on the platform, that the party, and the convention was finally his. but it was too late. it's -- so i think there was another agenda there. >> what do you think, bill?

>> i wasn't in the white house at that time. i had left in early '67. but i was in hubert humphrey's suite in chicago and he had anticipated that lbj might make a move. but by the time of the convention, i think he was totally persuaded that lbj was not a force. but i don't know firsthand from the lbj side. you were there, too. >> i actually wrote a speech for him to deliver at the convention. >> really? >> and it's somewhere, i'm sure in the lbj library. then i got a call, he was going to come at one point. i got a call the day the convention started. from somebody at the ranch, i don't remember who. >> larry temple, jim jones saying he wasn't, you know, by now we were struggling in chicago. the president was not going to chicago. i left the white house and went up to the jersey shore with my

children. watched it there, sadly. so i don't -- i, the speech wasn't an acceptance speech. the speech was a birthday speech. up until the last minute -- i had no sense, i had no sense for instance, that he was going to -- run. >> that is probably true. but you asked me what he thought and there may have been nothing to it. but because we couldn't get any management of that convention for about three days, we wondered why. >> i was at the ranch and watched the convention in the office. there was a wing of the main house that contained the president's office. we watched the convention and the riots in that office with the president, who was quite miserable watching it. all that week that the convention you know, was about to happen, the plane was there to take him to chicago. and everybody was on tenterhooks

about whether he would go. and i never had the slightest sense that he was hankering to be drafted. i think that's kind of novel that people write in their minds. i think he was completely resigned, not reconciled. but completely resigned to the fact that in march, he said to the american people, i will not seek nor will i accept the nomination of my party. i think that was very close to a sherman statement. i think he meant it. i think he had deeply mixed feelings about what had happened to him. i saw no sign during that convention, when we're all down in texas that he wanted to go and be drafted. >> gill? >> i do think that's right. i can't remember who was on the floor of the convention, i was not there, either. but i do think he was constantly concerned that the party would rebuff him on the war. we all say, if he had only made

the speech about the war a couple of weeks sooner, then he had, about vietnam, he would have been elected president. remember, he was on the rise. he only lost by less than one percentage point. but there was a lot of tension. to me, one of the most interesting parts of all of that. he had urged rockefeller to seek the republican nomination. i wonder what would have happened, had rockefeller wound up being the republican? >> rockefeller, i honestly believe rockefeller was his preferred candidate for president of the united states. he brought rockefeller down to the white house in a secret meeting to talk to him about that. >> it's another indication of this weird bipartisanship of lbj. he appreciated talent, no matter which side of the aisle it was on. and he had great respect for nelson rockefeller's abilities. and i as a young person in the

white house, thought it was strange that the president was so willing to consort with these strange republicans. >> but he admired rockefeller. >> did you mean, joe, that you think, if humphrey had been the nominee, he would have voted for rockefeller? >> i don't know what he would have done. i do remember one thing about rockefeller. when rockefeller got divorced and married happy, it was a big scandal. i mean it was a big deal in politics for that to happen. and there was a white house dinner and he was going over the list with liz carpenter. and he said, add nelson rockefeller, i want him down here, with his new wife. and had him down. >> we're kind of coming to the end of this. i would just like to go around and ask each of you, what do you think is the quality about

lyndon johnson that today's politicians, would do well to emulate or what was it about him could learn from him would help them the most? senator montgomery? what would you say? >> well, i think we've all talked about his great skill in bringing people around to his point of view. even if they didn't come to his point of view, at least cooperating. i think that was one of his enduring qualities. that he could bring a person by their party, into the oval office, go to the senate floor, whatever the case might be. and make a reasonable persuasive answer. and he left no doubt that this was something that meant a lot to him.

and he felt it was in the best interests of the country. and i think that was his capacity for leadership that made him a great president. >> senator mondale? >> well, what we talked about earlier, remember carol talked about? i think he genuinely and profoundly felt for poor people. i don't think it was a pose. and i think it drove his presidency and he, every day of his life, wanted to make progress and make the lives of these poor people that he knew better. i felt it, i was there the night of the '65 civil rights address, when he said, we shall overcome. that, i believe, is the most thrilling moment of my political career. because i could feel it. i knew he meant it.

i knew he was going to do everything possible to create what is really a revolution. he got civil rights, no one else did. he got these big changes in education, so on, all of these great how would i call the high tide. because i think he was despite all of his negatives, we talked about today, deep down, he meant it with everything in his power. and he had the skills and the intention to do it. and he changed our country. and i think we should be forever grateful to him. >> you'll remember that he knew the cost of getting civil rights passed. in addition to saying, we shall overcome, he said, well, when he signed that bill, there goes the south. for the next half century. >> right, right. >> bill? >> well it's hard to reduce that

novel of a man to one concluding sentence. but it is to put yourself when you can, on the right side of how you read history. that's what he did with the civil rights movement. his posture on civil rights was not all that admirable before he became president. and i remember one, to me was the defining moment of his presidency. it was a press conference after he was passing, working to enact the civil rights act of the voting rights act, i forget which. and james deacon, who was the white house correspondent for -- >> the "st. louis post-dispatch" was at the back of the crowd, standing a few feet from him. he spoke of jim had this voice that would cut through. and he said, mr. president, mr. president -- you didn't do very well on civil rights in texas. you didn't do very well as a congressman. and why are you taking this

stand now? and there was this long pause. and i wasn't, i had no idea what he was going to say. he said, jim, i'll tell you. very few of us have the chance to correct the mistakes of our youth. and when you do, do it. i have that chance and i'm going to do it now. he was reading his times in the context of the progressive evolution start and stops of american government. i would say to any politician today, try to read the moment in the context of the long progressive history of this country. which has been one of constantly fighting, often losing to advance the franchise of democracy. and that's what johnson did when it mattered most. >> you know -- [ applause ] >> hearing you bring up jim deacon. he was covering the white house

when i was a white house correspondent. what i remember that jim always had a way of kind of holding his head. and johnson always said, oh, you know, he's the reporter that looks like he just smelled something. and he usually did. >> kevin? >> and that is a zest for politics. there has never been a great president who was not also a great politician, and if we have presidents who cover themselves above the political fray, who have a disdain for the sort of sweaty, world of politics and the trenches. there's never been a president who didn't have a zest for political combat and for political bargaining for

politics in the raw. fdr was somehow able to connect with people from a completely different background. lbj was skilled. he had, what i call operational intelligence, not to train kind of literary intellectualism when we think of when we talk about intelligence. he had operational intelligence and it was essential to presidential greatness, and if i were advising later presidents, i would say, do not hold yourself above the fray, be willing to get above the fray and get those skills and do whatever you have to do. >> i think i agree with what he said. i think you have to get into the battle. i think he had additional political skills. he had such profound commitment. i think he had enormous courage. he knew he was paying a fearful

price for everything he was doing, particularly in the civil rights areas as he told bill about the '64 law and he knew the voting rights act. he also knew that passing a law was just the beginning, and he was right there -- i mean, we were filing lawsuits within days after the voting rights act was, to enforce it. we were calling everybody to get hospital desegregated after medicare went into effect. calling local leaders and he knew all these guys and he knew you had to do it that that was just the beginning and at the same time he knew how important the law was because all of the civil rights leaders wanted him to sign an executive order on fair housing and he said the next president can revoke the order. he knew how unpopular fair housing would be and he said

you've got to get the law and courage, tenacity and he loved every minute of schmoozing with everybody on the hill, everybody, you know, out there that was a politician, a businessman and a labor leader and he'd call ahead of the business council and see what he thought about it and vice versa. he was -- he knew how this country ran and he knew how it was driven and how you achieve something and he was willing to touch every single lever to get it done. we need that. >> okay. [ applause ] >> i want to just close this with one little personal story. lyndon johnson was the first politician that i ever knew or even knew about. the year was 1948. i was 11 years old, and we heard

that lyndon johnson who was running for the united states senate, this was the year of truman versus dewey. we heard lyndon johnson was come the baseball, vacant lot, and we heard he was coming and it was a big thing in the community and my dad took me down there and the reason we were all so excited about going down there is we heard he was coming in a helicopter and none of us had ever seen a helicopter. this was a long time ago. so on that day we all went down there and we're standing there in this vacant lot and all of a sudden we hear this big noise up in the sky and here's this airplane with no wings on it and we hear coming over this bullhorn, this is your candidate for the united states senate and we were, like, you know, moses when he realized it was the burning bush. we didn't know if it was a politician or if it was god.

we didn't know what it was. and it was this thing and this plane and this cloud of dust and lyndon johnson got out of that helicopter and he made the most rousing speech you could ever want to hear and he never took off his hat during the speech and at the end of his speech he took off his hat and threw it into the crowd and then got on the helicopter and flew away. mind you, i was 11 years old. i can remember every moment of that day. i can't remember the commercials from the last presidential campaign, but i can remember every minute of that day. let me tell you what, i later told that story to jake pickle who was a longtime congressman and jake said oh, yea, that was my job in the campaign. what do you mean your job? he said i was going to the university of texas and my job was to drive around wherever the helicopter was going and to get in at the front of the line and at the end of the speech i was the guy that caught the hat.

he said, lbj said he was the tightest guy on earth. he wasn't going to waste a hat on a political rally. he said i'd have to drive around and catch that hat and run around behind the helicopter, give it to him and then he'd go on to the next round and every time i think of that day, and i think about how politics was then, and you talk about how he had this great zest for politics, and he got out there and in those days politicians knew who they were talking to. they weren't relying on a piece of paper that some pollster had given him, they weren't relying on a poll that someone had written and they knew who they were talking to, and i think all of you talked about it in a certain way. he knew who the people were that he represented and that's why he was able to do -- he knew who the people were in the senate this he dealt with. he knew who the people were in the government and that's how he

was able to get so much done. ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. i hope you enjoyed it as much as i did. thank you. >> with congress on break all this week we're featuring some of american history tvy weekend programs on prime time on c-span3. on thursday night join us as we take a look at women's history starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern former democratic congresswoman pam schroeder reflects on women in politics in the 1970s. at 9:00 p.m. eastern, remembering pat nixon who traveled to 75 countries during her time in the white house as

an ambassador of good will. the university's founding 375 years ago. american history tv in prime time all this week on c-span3. this weekend, head to the state capitol named in honor of thomas jefferson, book tv and american history tv in jefferson city missouri, saturday at noon eastern, literary life on c-span2. jean carnahan on family life inside the governor's mansion from the book "if walls could talk," also a butcher's bill, a business contract from ancient mesopotamia, the stories behind eight miniature babylonian clay tablets and sunday on american history tv on. >> at one time in 1967 this was called the bloodiest 47 acres in america. a former warden takes you

through the missouri state penitentiary and walk back through history in the halls of the governor's mansion. once a month, c-span's local content vehicles explore the history of cities across america. this weekend from jefferson city, saturday at noon and sunday at 5:00 eastern on c-span2 and 3. >> the life of the sailor included scrubbing the deck in the morning, working on the sails, climbing aloft, whatever the duties assigned, gun drill practice, but by the end of the day you're red for rest, but you don't get a full eight hours' sleep, aboard a ship like constitution, it's four hours on, four hours off. the life of an enlisted man aboard the uss constitution during the war of 1812. >> the sailor lived in fear of the possibility of being whipped by a cat of nine tails. it was always carried by a petty officer in a bag and the thing the sailor never