that's the power of the presidency. some presidents do it better than others. >> i just think that's so important. i think that as i see it, i think the american people are interesting. the system is so partisan and so structurally partisan with all the ways we are saying. on the day america elects the president, it's the american people who are speaking. and i think that maybe one thing that's happening in the country is that the value of that and the importance of that is becoming greater. or more the potential of what can be created off of that and becoming more visible. when i was thinking about this phrase, the parties versus the

people which is the subtitle of your book. i love that. it's actually the title of a chapter in my book. let's not sue each other over that. but i was also thinking about that phrase, the parties versus the people. i was thinking it embodies maybe a deeper truth within that. that's that the parties aren't the people. the people are the people. the constitution of course recognizes the people and not the parties. as we well know. i don't even think that's a technical issue and in some ways i think part of where we have come to as a country and it's a time to remind ourselves that

the parties are not the people. we have to find ways to take action politically that reflect that and express that. >> you have been playing james madison on stage. you should see that. the first four presidents disagree about a lot. washington and jefferson and madison disagreed about a lot of things. the founders were not unanimous and a lot of them didn't even like each other. what were the things they agreed on. don't create political parties. they said it over and over in writing and speeches. do not create political parties. i don't know if there is political scientists in the room, but political scientists like to come back and say there were parties created the even

during that time and madison was part of a party. they were not anything like the parties we had today. they might have a few issues. maybe it was the expansion and whether you favored britain or france. it's not like you have today with the parties marching in lot step on almost everything. doesn't matter whether it's a stimulus or a supreme court nomination. all the democrats are on one side and the republicans on the other. if you could bottle this, it's an amazing thing. by some magic, you can have this group of people to be either party. you have white and black and hispanic and old and young and urban and rural. they all think alike. it's amazing how they are able to make that happen. you have the democrats over here and you have the republicans here. at war with each other all the

time. because it's how can my party win the next election? one example of all of you, if you decide that because this university is so good and has such great facilities and you oh, a lot to it and wanted to do something, you might say we are going to get together as a big group and we have a lot of friend and we are going to build a building and you get together all of you in this room and say what did we need? what space and where should it be built and what equipment do we need? there is only one thing you would not do. you would not say all the republicans sit over there and the democrats sit over here. that's the way we run our government. >> i am going to open up to your questions. raise your hand if you like to ask a question and i will call on people. wait until you get handed a microphone so that we can hear you.

the floor is open. gabrielle? and the mike is coming right over here. to gabrielle. second or third row. >> thank you. thank you for your comments. my question has to do as you were talking about making the republicans over here and the democrats are over here. some people would say that well, we independents where we are is we are in the center. and i think that they put this forward as a way -- this is the way we bring america together. we have to be in the center to really truly be together and i also speak personally feel this is a -- kind of an anti-extremist attitude. extremism is bad, bad for the

country and we have to come together in the center. i know in your book you talk about this issue of how independents are defined often. i wonder if you both could address this. >> i am not a cent rift. i don't believe in it. the civil rights movement did not woman from the center. the women's movement and the labor movement did not come from the center. none of the great advances came from the center. i believe in a democracy, it's about a vigorous debate between alternative viewpoints. if you want everybody to kind of be in the same spot, you will have the kremlin. they are good at that. democracy requires vigorous exchange about ideas. it should not be related to the club that you belong to. it should be that sometimes jackie is already confessed that she is a progressive. what can i do?

on some thing, jackie and i might be far apart and other things we might be together. it wouldn't be because of what would happen to our club. it would be because we both thought about what's the right thing for america from our perspective. i think at some point because there 320 million of us, it puts a whole different thing. if the first three people over here decided to go to dinner together tonight, they could have a consensus. if they went two rows back, you can't have a consensus. you have to compromise. that's what they require. i am not advocating they don't push for advances. i am saying let's look at the issues on their merits and coming to o on principal.

that's where i am. >> i would like to tell you we are very close to fascism. you may not believe it, but the democracy that we have now if obama doesn't win, we are bordering on fascism. the other side, they don't play by the rules and they don't play fair. they are liarless and do anything to get into the white house. also -- >> that's fine. let's let the gentlemen fin. go ahead, sir. do you have a question? >> also i believe in this situation that went on in florida where a young boy was talking along and was shot to death, the man who shot him, i am -- i might as well show you.

i am retired new york city. you don't have a gun unless you see a psychiatrist. you have to go and talk to him first. second, you have to have a mental skprn this guy can be in the 10th grade mentally and an out and out psycho. he looks like a psycho. you are going to tell me that if you threaten me, you are allowed to shoot. i'm allowed to shoot you. this is garbage. >> i hear you. >> do you have a question? thank you for your comments, sir. >> she carries her own. >> a lot of times first of all, thank you both. all three of you. great to be here. a lot of times when we talk about the impact of partisan, it

seems kind of distant from the lives of the american people. it's like regulations. one of the things that i think partisanship has done in this country is to keep black and white people separate. we have done a lot of work as independents to create ways for what we call the over tax, the white middle class and the people of color and poor people in general. and the democrats think they are representing the african-american community and they help to create the antagonis antagonists. there is something so profoundly disturbing about the system from the vantage point of not being

able to -- not that they can sit together, but they keep us from sitting together. i wanted the two of you to come in. >> interestingly enough that that decision that you talk about. you may remember a number of years ago when there was a much hotter issue than it has been since about creating a majority minority. i was teaching at harvard at the time and there was a meeting and a faculty member. it was interesting because it was people are looking for what they think will serve their advantage. this was note something that involved republicans. the white liberals on the faculty, they were very much in favor of keeping districts the way they had been. not the majority and minority. if we create the district, the

majority voters and minorities, that will take them out of other districts and increase the number of republicans so don't worry about it. we will take care of you. we will watch out for your interests. the african-american members of the faculty said thank you for taking care of our interests. we appreciate it. we would like a seat at the table too. there has been historically a great new book out. you will be shocked to write a good review. by eric alterman who is a well-known liberal writer. he has a new book out called the cause of making the case for a liberal politics. one of the things that he brought up is the tension that existed for so long between white liberals and african-americans. about how you resolve what one

of them wants political advantage and the other said we want to be full players in the democracy. really tough. >> a couple of thoughts about this and in my mind what you are raising also connects to the question about cent richl. that gabrielle brought up. when i think about the history of what's gone on and the political have been an outspoken and a leading figure in that movement and our c-span audience should know you ran for president in 1988 in 1988 and bap the first to access the ballot in all 50 states. that was amazing. more than that, your message in that campaign and since then and certainly in all of our work in

the empty movements is trying to find ways to build new bridges between communities and constituencies and groups of americans who are divided and separated from one another. surely we have been excited and very gratified over the year when is we have seen a particular coalition which we sometimes call the black and independent alliance come that happened in 2008 with the election of barack obama. which we have also seen happen in new york city here in some of the mayoral races in the election of michael bloomberg. big stuff. important stuff. very important coalition. one point about the issues, one thing and i agree completely with all of what you said politically and historically about the mushy center. it always has an unmushy side too which is divicive and we have seen that.

cent richl is often presented as the thing that brings people together and actually it's a politic that drives people apart. we saw that manifest in the earliest days of the independent political movement when perot was running for the presidency and a broad coal igsz came to try to create a new national political party that became the reform party. there were terrible fights, tremendous fights that went on about whether this party was going to be a cent rift party that some of the more prestigious types were advoca advocating about or the pop lift party, a party that brought ordinary americans together across racial lines and ideological lines and geographic lines to create a new kind of politic. i think for people who have been involved in the independent movement for many years, that

fight between cent richl and populism and purity and new coalitions and new alliances has been a defining fight and that is certainly going to continue. it's important for people to be educated about that. this is something they write about and as you said in my book, i deal a lot with the history of this fight. historically it's a very, very important fight. some of the people who were advocating for a cent rift national party were saying and this connects to your story, we will bring the more conservative democrats who are white and the more liberal republicans who are white together in a cent rift party and the black people? they will stay behind in the democratic party, but they will be happy because the party is smaller and they will have more power within this party.

this was actually by the way i'm not making this up. people wrote books and articulating this as a thesis or a blueprint for how to build the independent movement. many of us have been into politics for a long time and fought tooth and nail against that. that's so important as a part of that history. >> before we take our next question, i have a commercial interruption. i have two invitations for everyone here tonight. on may 5th, the new york city independence party is hosting a theater night at new york city's premier political theater, the castillo theater. we will see a wonderful musical written by fred newman entitled sally and tom, the american way. it explores the love affair between thomas never son and sally hemmings, his slave, and examines the inhuman compromise they made at america's birth.

jackie plays james madison in the production in herry this at cal debut. >> he asked me if i was going to sing tonight. i'm not. >> i tried. >> come see the show and i will. >> you understand the debut means there will be more to come. >> i definitely hope so. the play is wonderful. the music is just totally engrossing and very thought-provoking and jackie, it's dynamite. we have tickets on sale as you leave this evening. you can check in at the table and hope you will join us. my next invitation is to join me in taking politics for the people nationally. i began politics for the people over a decade ago to bring these dialogues to independent-minded new yorkers. in january of this year, i took the interpret nationally. i launched a blog and online

book club so that independents across the country could be part of creating these cutting edge conversations. very important project. i want to invite all of you who are listening in the c-span audience to join our book club and politics for the people online and all of our audience here in new york to sign up yourself and refer friends and colleagues from around the country. you can find us at www.politics 4 the people.word press.com. i hope you will sign up this evening. the floor is open for more questions. if i can have my two mike handlers, i will direct you. i will til where to go. >> when we were talking about obama and the 2008 election, i was thinking he got the cultural aspects he got, but didn't

address the cultural issues. he talked about open primaries and the reform that addressed some of the structural impediments to democracy. he referenced party primaries and they were a structural reform that was supposed to cure them and the parties figured out how to turn that to their own advantage. they find it ought to advocate for structural reform. how do we get it right. the historical aspect of it. the mobilization aspect and the destruction. it comes and works in the people who run the show and can't take it back. >> the power in this country rests with the people if they exercise. democracy is not a spectator

sport. one of the things as the people in washington state and california found as they went to truly open primaries, there 24 states that have provisions in their constitution for initiative petitions where the voters can just take control. they come up with changes in the law and in this case what they did was redistricting and the primaries and get the signatures and they were running the cal pain and they changed the laws. the other part of it, i'm not going to ask how many of you have been to a meeting where your member of skng present. it's important at the state level and a lot of states that don't have reverenda where the state legislature can be pressured to and in addition when your member of congress, house, and senate comings to

meet with the constituents, you ought to be here and you ought to say that senator so and so or house member, if you vote 95% of the time with your party as a great many do, then you don't belong in congress. you are obviously not representing us. we are not all in agreement 95% of the time. you kay to the house members, we want you to support a provision that requires a speaker of the house to act in a nonpartisan way and change the rules so that you can't be elected speaker unless you get 60% of the vote. whatever. come up with the changes that are required and this requires confrontation. it requires confrontation either when you your member of congress is back or you go to washington or to albany and you talk to

them or you get an initiative petition going. we are in the mess we are in because the people have not said to stop it. it's time to say stop it. >> just to add a couple of things to that, i was thinking about when you asked your question, i was thinking about fred newman, a founder who passed away a year ago. he wrote a book a number of years back called the end of knowing. it's a wonderful book and so many important ideas and one of the things he wrote about and not just in the book which he practiced and was organizing and the idea that cultural transformation doesn't happen in an orderly fashion. that's what you were talking about. it occurs out of chaos and out of all kinds of new things

happening in the context of chaos. i feel close to this and i was thinking about open primaries and so much of the discussion about this particular structural political reform that we are very much in favor of and support, but people will often say if you had independence voting in the primaries, this is what the out come is going to be. help the republicans or it will respect the democrats. what's going to happen? what's the impact going to be? i have become very fond of saying and i have done so many of these debates or discussions and the issues i have become fond of saying -- i really don't know. here's what i know. 40% of the country are independents today. they need the right to vote. they need the opportunity to

vote in the first round of voting. we will take it from there. i am willing to say i trust sufficiently. in the american people to go with that. we don't know what that's going to produce. that's a good thing. that's the environmentry are organizing. >> thanks. you mentioned, i was glad that you said that the women's movement and the civil rights movement and the black ribration movement -- i don't think you said that, but all these movements were not -- they were not cent rift movements and more over, they were not party movements. they were movements of independent people and i'm glad what you said about cultural transportation. that truly is how things change.

i'm pertesched that people all over the country and black people and white people are saying that president obama didn't do this and president obama didn't do that. i think about what fred said about this transformation with ross perot had 20 million votes. that shook up the establishment. 20 million americans voted in this fashion and jesse ventura got elected governor. it was a defection. because he wasn't supposed to be governor. i think about obama in that way too. really the cultural thing that happened was that an african-american was elected president of the united states and that was the change. i would like to know your

comments on this. you both have eloquently addressed the whole bipartisan gridlock and the whole choke hold on the system of american parties by the two-party system. could you address further what like that cultural impact would be based on what we have seen from perot, jesse ventura and now obama. . >> i appreciate your question. a couple of things i would say, is that i think that one of the effects of that very dramatic event that took place, that cultural turning point or historic turning point in the country is that what you then saw subsequently was the extraordinary resistance of the

existing institutions to being able to manifest that or respond to that or to create a new political process off of that. in some ways you have to say well, the election of barack obama should have set off a huge chain of evens in which there was a broad reconsideration of the way institutions in the society function politically. but that's not what happened. in fact, arguably what happened is that those institutions began to perform more and more as caricatures of themselves. this is part of what i was references about the unevenness. the country takes a huge step forward in this way and then you start to see these incredible

behemoth institutions that are dead. the dead hand of political parties continuing to control the political process. even though the american people have spoken out and said we want to go do something different. that's the fight and what we are doing. that's also why as you were saying we are making the revolution. some people say oh, open primaries? what happened to storming the barricades and you are a 60s person? the revolution and you know, all this kind of stuff. it's important for people to appreciate how extraordinarily revolutionary it is to restructure the ruling institutions of a society that we are talking about. >> i can't add to that. i would underline what you said by saying that changing the st