to him -- obviously i've talked to him recently, and he has referred to dick case as a hero in what he did, of helping the members come to an understanding of their own understanding of what the facts were, but helping them grapple with them. because it was, you know, a complex factual story. also dick -- i don't know the details of this either, but i believe some of the permanent staff for rodino were unhappy with the pace and so on by john, and dick i think helped immensely in calming down that. i don't know the personal element of it, but i think he -- he helped immensely. he had been hired i think independently, not by john but by the committee, and so he had

this sort of independent role that made him this very constructive force. >> and he got along well with john doar. >> he did. he did get along very well with john. and they were both midwestern litigators. and dick i remember used to love to tell war stories about his cases, so we did find some time to hear a fair number of dick's war stories, of things he'd won that, you know, were hard to win. and from all these guys, dick case, but particularly from john, i learned so much about how to litigate cases in the sense that from john particularly what i learned was that it's not for the lawyer to be the star, it's for the witness to be the star.

it's for the people with the factual knowledge to be the ones who convey their convictions and what the facts were. i think dick has the same kind of attitude. not the flamboyant, you know, lawyer, but the guy who works with people to ferret out -- i remember dick told me when you're trying to find out what happened, you got to go and sit in some somebody's kitchen and talk in their kitchen, with a cup of coffee, about what went on. and not just you bring them to their office and put them in a chair. you have to really -- you got to make them the subject. and the other thing -- i learned that john agreed with that totally. that was his approach. as well, to be the lawyer in the background. i found in my career that

sometimes the lawyer gets congratulated for being the great lawyer by the jury who is just lost. the other thing that john taught me that impeachment taught me is the merit of close attention to facts and testimony, such that you find things, either points of agreement or disagreement, or sometimes thing not said, by what nixon did not tell gray. president nixon did not tell gray what he knew. and that requires close attention to records and documents and testimony. and in today's litigation world it's hard to do that because of e-mails. e-mails generate such a mass of information that it's too much.

if we had had e-mails, can you imagine if we had had e-mails? it would have been -- six months wouldn't have been enough time. you can't digest, but you have to do them today because they often contain critical evidence. it's just that attention to detail. that's why i think john felt it was important to take the time, because you can't do this, you know, in a month. do this right, if you're going to really look hard and see. another thing john taught me, as a litigator, is that you have to be very careful not to create an expectation that something is going to be resolved through some topic where it's not going to happen. everyone was interested in the 18 1/2 minute gap. and i remember -- i said, why don't we send people over to germany? maybe i wanted to visit germany. i can't remember. and meet with the manufacturer

of the tape recorder to understand, you know, exactly what it would take to erase. and john was not in favor of doing that. and i remember he said it was going to create an expectation that there will be an -- and it's just not going to happen. you're going to go over there, and there's not going to be anything, and then you'll have created an expectation, and people will be drawing inferences, one bigger than another from what you didn't find, rather than focusing on the evidence that really exists. so expectation is important. obviously, it's important in the political realm too of not creating political -- but he was talking more about evidentiary expectations. >> when do you think you shifted because it's an important pivot, from being an inquiry to, when you say litigating, at a certain point he's becoming a litigator? >> at a certain point we are presenting a case. certainly when we're drafting

articles of impeachment john, as you know, was reluctant. the staff never got to take any position. john was reluctant to take a position and he did not really do so until just before the vote, where he clearly did take a position. i think it's not a point in time. it is as the process goes forward, the question is, is there a case for impeachment? you start out, you don't know. is there a case? is there not a case? you don't know. as time goes by there's more and more evidence that might be a case, but if you're adopting this approach that john had of needing to see a whole pattern and picture, so as time goes by, the needle, you know, is creeping up, in a sense, of is there a case for impeachment.

and it creeps up again. so as time goes by, you became more certain that this case. but then, when you get to the point where you feel clearly and convincingly that there is going to be such a case, i can't remember a specific point. i think it may be about the time i listed the 50 things. i can't remember the exact date of that list. us was certainly after we reviewed all the evidence, talked to some of the witnesses, listening to tapes. i can't remember the exact moment, but that was a moment too of the needle having gone beyond that there is a case. i would say i arrived with an expectation, certified committee expectation that it would be a quick process to decide that

that was a case, that i wouldn't be down there for maybe a couple months, three months. that it would be a quick process. you look at things, case, no case, but it really did take this time to do that, both because we, you know, had a process through the comprehensive evaluation of the evidence, and because we had to do other things that meant you couldn't spend all your time just thinking about the ultimate issues. so for example, i remember one week, but i just thought my head was going to explode. there were just so many things going on. i felt that brain pain. everyone i'm sure has felt it. actually pain in your brain from too much -- you know, it's somewhere, there's another needle in your brain it's over on the red side. and it was because we were

trying to get our information ready. trying to think about, you know, what it all added up to. and at the same time we had to draft just indications for the information requests. we had made was in requests that arguably were sort of self-justifying. you read them, and that doesn't make sense. but the committee wanted detailed essence about why this information was needed. so we were doing all of these things in an incredibly compressed period of time, and it caused brain pain. and that, obviously meant there was more time than -- so i don't see that we could have done it any quicker. i know that six months was a long time to have the country dangling. but, we couldn't have done it quicker, i don't think, than the way we did it. with the solidity.

>> you're watching american history tv, where every week we bring you eyewitness accounts of the people and events that have shaped our nation. saturdays at 8:00 a.m., sundays at three sclook p.m. and mondays at 4:00 p.m. eastern on c-span3. >> we had pulled in to the refueling that morning around 9:30. we had more of the ship to appear in the middle of the harbor. >> the former commanding officer of the "uss cole" on the events surrounding al qaeda's october 2000 attack that left 17 dead and 37 injured. >> i was turned back to my desk and doing routine paperwork when at 11:18 in the morning there was a thunderous explosion. you could feel all 505 feet and 8400 tons of destroyer quickly and violently thrust up and to the right. it's almost like we seemed to hang for a second in the air as the ship was doing this odd three dimensional twisting and flexing. we came back down in the water, lights went out, ceiling tiles came and popped out. everything on my desk lifted up

about a foot and slammed back down. i literally grabbed the underside of my desk in a brace position until the ship stopped moving and i could stand up. >> more with front burner author and former "cole" commander tonight at 8:00 on c-span's q&a. >> one of my favorite drugs to talk about which is in maybe half of pigs, half of cows, an a lot of the turkeys. this is a drug, most of the drugs we're giving are to make animals grow faster, they make more money. but this particular drug is not withdrawn when they walk onto the killing floor. that means that when that animal is killed and the meat is sold, safely or what, the drug is in there. >> this weekend on afterwards, martha rosenberg looks behind the scenes of the food and drug industries and finds regulatory lapses and government complicity in undermining the public health, borne of the junk food deficiency tonight at 9:00.

part of book tv this weekend on c-span2. robert caro is the author of "the years of lyndon johnson." the fourth book in his series is titled "the passage of power" and it captures lbj in the years from 1958 to 1964. his transition from the u.s. senate to the presidency. up next mr. caro's keynote address during a symposium aimed at revisiting the great society policies and politics of franden d. roosevelt and lyndon b johnson. this is about 50 minutes. >> thank you president robb. it is altogether appropriate that this conference be held at hunter college, and at roosevelt house where we will convene tomorrow. lyndon john as president rabb mentioned was a protege of franklin roosevelt who served as

president when lbj was first elected to congress in 1936. lbj, a new dealer by background, and at heart believed in fdr and his vision for america. in many ways the seeds of lbj's great society were planted in the fields of fdr's new deal. as johnson often said to his aides during his administration, i really intend to finish franklin roosevelt's revolution, but lbj's passion for social justice came well before fdr landed in the white house. in 1965 before a joint session of congress, lbj talked about an experience as a young man that may have been among the most formative of his life. >> my first job after college was as a teacher in texas in a small mexican-american school.

few of them could speak english, and i couldn't speak much spanish. my students were poor, and they often came to class without breakfast, hungry. and they knew even in their youth the pain of prejudice. they never seemed to know why people disliked hem. i ended up wishing there was more i could do. i saw it in their eyes. i often walked home late in the afternoon after the classes were finished wishing there was more that i could do. but all i knew was to teach them the little that i knew. hoping that it might help them against the hardships that lay ahead.

and somehow you never forget what poverty and hatred can do when you see its scars on the hopeful face of a young child. i never thought then in 1928 that i would be standing here in 1965. it never even occurred to me in my fondest dreams that i might have the chance to help the sons and daughters of those students, and to help people like them all over this country. but now i do have that chance. and i will let you in on a secret. i mean to use it. >> with memories of those mexican-american schoolchildren seared in his conscience and

racial strife alive and well in america in the mid 1960s, lbj took his own revolution where fdr had not. enlisting in the cause of civil rights and determined to put a legal end to racial apartheid in america. on november 25th, 1963, on what was the second full day of his presidency, johnson called martin luther king jr. and initiated what would become among the most productive and important partnerships of the 20th century. >> -- told me that they heard about your statement. i guess on tv, wasn't it? >> yeah, that's right. >> i've been locked up in this office, and i haven't seen it, but i want to tell you how grateful i am, and how worthy i'm going to try to be and all your hopes. >> well, thank you very much. i am so happy to hear that. and i knew that you had just a great spirit, and you know you have our support and backing. we know what a difficult period

this is. >> it's a difficult and possible period. we have a budget coming up. it's practically already made. we've got a civil rights bill that hasn't even passed the house. it's november. and everybody wants to go home. we've got a tax bill that they haven't touched. we just got to let not let up on any of them and keep going and i guess they'll say that i'm repudiated but i'm going to ask the congress just to stay there and pass them all but we'll keep them till next year to do it and we just won't give up an inch. >> well, this is mighty fine. i think it's so encouraging, i think one of the great tributes that we can pay in memory of president kennedy is to try to enact some of the great progressive policies that he sought to initiate. >> i'm going to play ball you can count on that. and i'm going to do my best to get other men to do like weiss.

i'll have to have y'all's help. i never needed it more than i do now. >> well, you know you have it, and feel free to call on me for anything. >> thank you so much, martin. >> call me when you -- >> i sure will. call me when you're down here next time. >> i certainly will. >> let's get to the and any suggestions you got, recommend. >> fine, i certainly will do that. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> all men are created equal is an inherent part of the american creed. by working with martin luther king and others towards the civil rights acts of 1964 and 1968, the voting rights act of 1965 and other civil rights measures, lbj, more than any other president, helped to fulfill the promise of equal rights for all americans. that legislation came at a cost. when johnson's friend and mentor, democratic senator richard russell of georgia, warned him that passage of the civil rights act of 1964 would result in the democratic party's

loss in a southern state and his loss of the presidency in the fall election, johnson replied, if that is the price for this bill, i will gladly pay it. in fact, the democrats did lose the south. but johnson won the election of 1964 in a landslide. he used that mandate to fulfill other promises. enacted medicare, head start, federal aid to education, immigration reform, environmental conservation, and taking measures to weaken poverty's hold in america. as the poverty rate plunged from 20% to 12% during the course of his administration. the great society might have swept even further into american life if not for the mire of vietnam, a conflict johnson inherited from presidents eisenhower and kennedy. as lbj escalated the war with no resolution in sight, divisions spread throughout the country.

on any given day in the latter part of his presidency, protesters could be heard outside of the white house gates chanting, hey, hey lbj, how many kids did you kill today? lbj agonized over the war which resulted in the loss of 36,000 u.s. troops by the time he ended his white house reign in 1969. but as this conference will reflect, lbj's formidable legacy of liberty continues to resonate. uniting us today far beyond the divisions of yesteryear. come let us reason together was johnson's favorite biblical passage. by reaching across the aisle, appealing to reason, and fostering togetherness, he not only continued fdr's revolution, but left his own indelible mark on america. while he may have been the consummate politician, his ultimate aim was to use his power to do the greatest good

for the greatest number. hey, hey, lbj, my, oh, my, we could use you today. one of johnson's chief architects in building his great society was a young new yorker named joe califano who served as a special assistant to the president from 1965 to 1969. he then went on to become secretary of health, education, and welfare for jimmy carter. he is currently an advisory board member for the rose veldt house public policy institute and as president rabb mentioned a catalyst for this conference. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming to the stage, joe califano. >> thank you. thank you. i'm standing between you and robert caro, so i'll be short.

bob caro is fascinated with the exercise of power and those who exercise it. that fascination led him to write the power broker, his brilliant biography of robert moses that set a whole new standard for political biography. today, i view that pulitzer prize winning book as his warm-up for tackling lyndon johnson, the most intelligent, complicated, committed, inspiring and infuriating person i've ever worked for. bob caro is lyndon johnson's most demanding and meticulous biographer. bob is fond of saying that, and i quote, understand how you not only have to show how it is used but also its effect on those hon whom it is used. you have to show the effect of power on the powerless. no wonder he has become obsessed with lyndon johnson.

bob caro has worked for 40 years to give the world lbj with the bark off, his highs and lows, how this president gave new meaning to the word machiavellian as he gave new hope to the most vulnerable among us. robert caro gives no quarter to the subjects he writes about, so we should all take notice of what he wrote about the president in master of the senate, his third johnson volume. in the 20th century caro wrote with its 18 american presidents, lyndon baines johnson was the greatest champion that black americans and mexican-americans and, indeed, all americans of color, had in the white house. the greatest champion they had in all the halls of government. he was the lawmaker for the poor and downtrodden and the oppressed. the president who wrote mercy and justice into the statute

books by which america was governed. end quote. bob caro's three volumes on lbj have already won him a second pulitzer prize, and a second national book award, and too many other prizes and accolades for me to mention in any introductions. of one thing i'm certain, lbj has given bob caro plenty of material to win even more prizes with his next volume. passage of power, about the years from 1958 to 1964, when johnson was vice president, part of those years, which will be out in may. and with his final volume on the white house years and beyond, due in out in a couple of years. indeed, publisher's weekly and the issue coming out on april 1st has already called his new -- his forthcoming volume compelling, insightful, and one that will thrill all those who care about american politics.

bob, who's back there, bob has spent some 40 years with lyndon johnson, and he looks great. bill moyers and i spent three years each with him in the white house, and we're still exhausted every time we think about it. ladies and gentlemen, the great bob caro. >> thank you. joe, that was such a nice introduction that i'm reminded of what lyndon johnson used to say when he used to get an especially nice introduction. he used to say he wished his parents were alive to hear it because his father would have loved it and his mother would have believed it. you know what winston churchill said when he was asked where he was in his great biography of lord marlboro? he said i'm working on the fifth

of a projected four volumes. well, not to equate myself with winston churchill, but i'm in the same boat, and in the way they talked tonight it's an explanation of how i got there. the role of government the responsibilities of government, that's the theme of this symposium. the focus on lyndon baines johnson, 36th president of the united states. on lyndon johnson's concept on what the role of government should be. and that theme will be explored in detail in the panels tonight and tomorrow. but to begin this conference, i am going to talk about the origins of this concept, about its beginnings, about where lyndon johnson's belief in the role of government came from. about the most fundamental basic beginnings for lyndon johnson, not the beginnings in washington, but the beginnings long before washington.

and i'll try to talk also about the origins not only of lyndon johnson's general beliefs about the role and responsibility of government, but also about the origins of the program in which in a way he announced his beliefs to the american people. about the program in which just seven weeks after president kennedy's assassination in his first state of the union address johnson enunciated quite clearly his concept of what the role of government should be. it's the program with which he began his great society, the war on poverty. for lyndon johnson, the beginnings are all in the place he came from. the place in which he was born and raised. the texas hill country. i've talked about the hill country before, but i don't think you can talk about it too much, particularly in new york city.

i saw what that meant growing up there myself, and it was quite a shock. i grew up in new york city, which is this place of fast-paced conversations and busy streets, theaters, and everything else. there was then a 9:00 plane from la guardia to austin. i take that plane, and sometimes when i got off that plane, i felt you rent a car and drive west out of austin into the hill country, and in those days i felt like i was going from one end of the earth to the other. i'll never forget the first time i drove out there. about 40 miles out of johnson -- out of austin as you are heading towards johnson city. there's a rise. they call it round mountain, but it's really just a tall hill. as i came to the top of it, something made me pull my car over to the side of the road and get out on the shoulder and look down in front of me. because i was looking at something that i had never seen before in my life.

it was just emptiness. i was looking at a valley. i later found out it was 42 miles long and about 15 miles across. when i stood there first and looked at it, i felt that there wasn't a single human thing in it to be seen. just a tremendous expanse of emptiness, and then something happened. the cloud moved in front of the sun or away from the sun or something, and all of a sudden there was a lit glinting off a little huddle of houses in the middle of that empty space. that was johnson city, texas. lyndon johnson was growing up there. the population was 367 at one point. when i came along, it was 362. i think i had stopped the car then and got out of it because i realized i was confronting something that i had never seen before and that i really wasn't equipped to deal with.