is told? >> there are a lot of myths, a lot of people who say simeon who, at theher trial where the two people were trialed for emmett's murder, he points out these two white men which was unbelievably courageous. they were myths of that he was taken to the north to be free in a casket. simeon puts to light all these myths. his father did not sneak away. what you really see from simeon it had takenn that so long for justice to a that is why he was very pleased with the fbi reopened the case in the early 21st century.

the reality is known was ever really brought to justice for his murder. >> thank you. to talk abouth today. at that we might begin with something that is personal. description with mother and father. >> my father was a hard man. fair, someone that is tough but fair. that is the kind of man he was. he loved farming. he was honest. most of the people that he works for, they found that he was an honest man. he was a hard worker. see when cotton will begin to grow mississippi he became excited. i cannot figure out why. that is the kind of man he was. he enjoyed the farming until my

mother "i was born and bred in mississippi the, mississippi i'm going to die." my mother was different. she was raised below jackson. i think what my dad proposed to her she told him about picking cotton. she said i don't know how to pick cotton. i think they met in memphis. memphis was the headquarters. she heard my dad deliver a message there. believe it or not, her parents lived in summer, mississippi where the trial of emmett till was taken. while she was in memphis, she was teaching school there. if you were african-american and those days, you did not need a college degree to teach school. she moved back to be near my dad. that is where they got married.

she was an easy woman. she would be singing church songs. she was something. time, we boys at the asked her, i'm sure we had done something wrong, when it you going to whip us? does when are you going to whip us -- i am sure we had done something wrong, when are you going to whip us? when she was around the house we were not afraid of anything. .he was always moving she would do anything to protect her children. she was somebody. >> last year you published a beautiful book "simeon's story" case.the emmett till

athought we might use conversation was and reflections on you about how after this span of time you came to choose to write that book. >> one of the reasons i would be asking about a certain documentary, i would see things that was true. i would get very upset. my wife so what are you write your own book? -- said "why don't you write your own book?" i decided to write my own book my to tell what happened in bedroom. to correct the myths and inaccuracies. there are so many out there. cut tothem that really the heart when they said that his cousin, my brother maurice and i, dared him to go into the

store and say something. i wrote a book to correct the inaccuracies. one reporter said he helped my dad escape mississippi in a coffin. he had three sons at the time. out ofthey get mississippi? that is my purpose in writing the book, to correct history and get the facts out. >> let me take you all the way back. i know you had the opportunity to talk about this on various occasions. i appreciate your willingness. let me take you back to the summer of 1955. about 12 years old. years, the kid is 12 there are always 12 and 11.

i was a month away from my 13th birthday. you only gave you correct it if [inaudible] >> i think you have an october birthday. >> october 15, that is right. >> the cotton harvest was about to come on. >> it was the beginning. lake august. te august. >> he felt excitement anticipating the visit by members of your extended family. can you talk about what that visit meant to you as a 12 euro? >> once we found out that emmett was coming, that was something. they gave us so much joy to see someone from the north to come down to visit and tell us about the north. we wanted to show them the

things that we did in mississippi to have fun and whatnot. we couldn't wait until he got there. arrived, we were not disappointed in him. he is a great storyteller. he told us about chicago. it was so great that some the things he told me about chicago, linkin park in that area, even today we take our sunday school but nick in beacon park-- picnic in lincoln park. >> you had been to chicago. >> i had been but i've never park.to lincoln an the gift was early 47. i stayed with my aunt -- i think it was an early 47. i stayed with my aunt. i spent about two weeks here. one of the great memories of

being here. at 2:00 in the evening [inaudible] we was tired. we weren't tired. that was the thing about up north, even at it again cap in the evening. in the had to take a nap evening. >> talk to him about arriving at your farm. >> he told us about chicago and riverview. it park wasbelieve this big. in amusement park. i heard it from him. when i saw that, i said man, he , how not explain it beautiful it was. it shut down in 1967. many of us cried. it was such a wonderful place to go to. my mother decided who is going to sleep with you. emmett and i shared a bed.

my brother robert was in one of the bags. monday morning it was time to go to the cotton field. emmett asked if he could go. he's got to bees, out of his mind. years seniority. it was a hot job. we told him, we showed him the things we had to do in mississippi. we showed him how to swim. you run the snakes out of the water. as shee one must long wants. make sure the snakes are out. wim as long as you want. you make sure the snakes are out. indid what you do

mississippi. we went down to one of our poppedrs house, watermelon. we taught him how to have a watermelon. he thought it was a wonderful thing. that, that wednesday but the people think that on that wednesday that we went to the store and then came to our house the same night. we had picked cotton all day. that we were bored. he said they were not even there. he claimed that he still my dad's car. accountread that false that you took the car while your debt was reaching. preaching. was >> for some reason he stopped

preaching. we came to chicago that summer is he was invited to deliver the eulogy for one of his own parishioners. he actually traveled back with my dad. we went to this this little store and a lots of things happened. a lot of things in history that are not true. onit is the end of the day wednesday. this will be the 25th now. >> 24th. >> you are out that morning picking cotton. can you take me through the day from then on? how that fateful day tickets course? >> in the morning we all had a pretty good breakfast. you would last an hour -- wouldn't last an hour. emmett went to the cotton fields.

he said i can't stand it. he was at home all day. we picked cotton all day. all day from sun to not quite dusk. you had to have enough sunlight to weigh the cotton. we had supper. we decided to go to m. my brother was 16 at the time. of our neighbors. maurice parked the car. we were there less than 20 minutes. what you heard in history it seems like were there for two hours. we walked over to the store. wheeler went inside of the store first. went in after. i wasn't in behind and to make

sure that he shouldn't. he did not know the ways of the south. we bought some fireworks which was common to us a new to him. insiden to set them off of the city limits. that was a no-no. that was the maurice sent him there. he did not say anything out of line. stuff you hear. he paid for his items. we walked outside of the store. standing on the south side of the door there. before she could get off the little wooden walkway there, emmett whistled at her. ] try to demonstrate [whistles scared us half to death. we could get out of town fast enough. we ran to the car.

our reaction scared him. we got in the car as fast as we could and got out of town. less than 20 minutes. probably 10 minutes. you a couple of more points. so many different stories are minutes.t those few 6.r group was er,rice, you, emmett, wheel and -- >> there was another young man. >> another neighbor. that wereer two supposed to go with this got left. can you paint a descriptive picture about what you see in 1955 when you pull up at the doors to the store?

>> outsize there is a bench there were some men were playing checkers. it was not a white man or a black man. trust me. there was no such thing. inside of the store you could not see inside too good. of the floor were wooden of course. there was a counter. get and have contact with the person behind the counter. ameone said he asked her for date. that did not happen. she made that up during the trial. it wasn't under oath. she knew if she perjured herself it would come back and get her. her lawyer was a smart white boy. that, in order for that

to happen you have to jump over the counter. other store was mostly close that time of night. i do not know why. ok, this is it. i learned later that on wednesdays all of the stores closed early. reason, on wednesday we could go to the doctor there. the bryant store was the only one open. when we first heard close the store. he had told them we are going to close on wednesday and they did not. he pulled his gun out and made him close. the is why we were at store. >> when he stepped inside, he

stepped inside. charged withs not any store? >> which is what is we wanted to buy and purchase and we left. wewe just looked at what wanted to buy and purchase and then we left. you were with him when he completed his purchase. >> yes. we left the store together. >> that is completely routine. >> she came out the site as to what to the car. >> your understanding is that she came out to the car to retrieve something? >> right. i had no idea what she was going to get y. he whistled and scared is so

bad. we jumped in the car and got out of town. >> why did you run? someone's window you get out of town. we have no idea that he would be killed. that did not even cross our minds. if wely thing is that we got caught there would be a whipping. that was the only thing. my brother, we were driving down road, drove about seven miles wise. east or west. there was no north and south highways where we lived her. they had dirt roads but only went so far. we drove about two miles. railroad tracks to our house was exactly three miles. about two miles down the road maurice saw these lights in the

mirror. he thought it was her husband chasing us so we stopped the car. we ran down to the cotton fields in trying to hide. it was our neighbors going home. when they got back to the car, this is when emmett that does not to tell what happens. you do not want to go home. we do not want him to go home. we had so much fun. we never dreamed that he would be killed for this. >> in that moment of the whistle, did you move so quickly any occasion have to see if there is any reaction from ms. bryant? >> she did look. when you are scared, you don't see. you know, it is in history that lollygagging, that he

had pictures of his white girlfriend. that never happens. there is no such thing. there is no picture of anything. someone said we dared him to go inside the store. no. >> it is good to take some care,a s you are doing, to bring forth your persona l experience with this. many stores have nothing to do with what actually happened. one was this reporting that some up to thisput emmett provocative gesture. other reports that he had photos of white girls in his wallet. >> no. if he had, he did not show them to us. they try to make out -- i asaid,

no. none of that happened. but it is in history and i'm trying to correct it. >> you get back home. there is a friendly conspiracy and friend to keep it quiet. >> we just didn't want him, he sendht daddy was going to him home. it was unusually quiet. went home and went to bed. getting ready for the next day. >> you mentioned in your book whoe was a neighbor girl the next day -- >> she was 16 at the time. uncleld us, because her told his family what happened

and she told us the next day, you are going to hear more about this. we know these people. we were apprehensive the first day but after thursday and friday passed and nothing happened, we forgot all about it. >> by saturday? >> we were getting ready to go to greenwood. ride.cure a it was something. it was christmas morning in august to go to greenwood. footlongjoy the hotdogs, malts, go to the movies. it was something. wem 6:00 p.m. to 12 midnight would be there. mostly on one street, johnson street. i think your older brother maurice was in charge of the car

that night? >> he had our car. withured the road roosevelt crawford's brother, john. maurice, wheeler, and emmett were in a car with roosevelt. we all wound up at the same spot, johnson street. >> did you y'all come back in the same arrangements? >> with all got home around the same time. everything shut down at midnight. we went to bed that night. it was just like any other night. , a couple ofr hours, our world was turned upside down. it was never the same again. [inaudible] aboutame to the house

2:00 a.m. i do not know the exact time. somewhere in that vicinity. the house was four bedrooms. the first was on the west side of the house where wheeler was sleeping. they were waking wheeler. they said we are looking forward the fat boy from chicago. they marched around to my bedroom. i heard the noise. the loud talking. i woke up and saw these two white men standing at the foot of my bed. one had a gun, flashlight. . found out he ordered me to lay back down and go to sleep. dresse emmett get up and and marched them out to the truck. a lot of things happen before they marched him out. i still do not know what was going on. my mother came in there. she was half talking and half

pleading with them. to leave him alone. she would give the money to leave the him alone. roy hesitated when they heard money. the other did not hesitate at all. left my bedroom, he asked my daddy how old he was. my daddy told me he was 64. you tell anyone about this you will not get to 65. they marched him out in emmett did not say one word. >> your mother kind of knew somehow, maybe. how low the segregationists were. i do not know. i was not old enough. my dad knew too. once they marched them out to lady boyceand responded when they asked if it was the right one.

she responded " he is." we believed at the time it was carolyn bryant. thatng has asked me happened for me to change my mind. i will go to my grave. she has a chance to rebut that the she chose not to. they drove off. we never saw emmett alive again. , ithat house that night never went back to sleep. my mother ran to neighbors, trying to get them to help. they would not get involved. chamblee's, son bruce. she came back to the house. all my dad was a [tsks] he was not going to do anything to the next day. half crying, half

talking or two till my dad, i cannot stay here another night. he had to get up, jive her -- drive her where her brother lived. she job her off there for stated wase until emmett's body found. she left the sumner and came to chicago appeared to never set foot in that house again. -- chicago. she never set foot in that house again. we were there mississippi with no mother. it was terrible. we didn't know at the time what had happened to emmett. was nothoping that he killed, that we would get him back. it will let the motion was going on there. of emotion was

going on there. we got there it but it was tough. >> sunday morning your father decided a phone call needed to be made to emmett's mother in chicago. >> after we contacted the sheriff and let him know what happened. only one that had a telephone. he let us use his phone. a boy that claimed he was at the store that night, he arrived at my house that same night emmett was kidnapped. i did not know he was in the house. we do not know who brought him there. we had a spare bedroom. he was sleeping in the spare bedroom. >> he had been staying with another family. >> he came to mississippi to stay with his aunt in greenwood. he traveled back to our country and shet saturday night was asleep. he never woke up.

i think wheeler was glad he never woke up. he had no sense of danger. , he wasbly would have the one that made a phone call. he called his mom, my oldest sister. she got in contact with emmett's mother. at the time, you would not have known this. ms.r and as you grow older, till was not passive. she took a whole range of sounds very quickly. it came to shape the events in a significant way. >> she did that. yes. she would not lay down. she happened to her son, was not going to let it rest until she got justice. she fought down through the

years trying to get to him. justice. to get she passed away in 2003 before the federal government decided to investigate. she did what she could. ime things that was said explained in my book. i said that is a mother's love talking. that is not the facts. that is a difference. >> tell me about the couple of days until the body was discovered. into learning that news. news.d learning that >> we spent the next two nights with neighbors. my dad took us over to mr. clint lewis. he had his own land. we had about five lakh families around there that have their own land. we stayed with them for a couple of nights. i am not sure who more recent stage with.

after two days we realize -- maurice stayed with. weer two days we realized could go back home. we are in the cotton field, picking, hoping we would see emmett alive again. monday the same thing. tuesday, the same thing. came and some men talked to my dad and then they left. we figured something had occurred. they have found him or what not. that is when they have found his body. in the tallahassee river about 20 miles north of where we lived. they wanted us to bury his body the same day. we had the body. they shipped it. we had the grave dug, the body there.

stopounty came and put a to it. he was told to bury the body today. you're just smith said i in the d i in thew -- he sai sheriff now and there will be no burial today. he jumped in his car. instead of getting rubber, you throwpin the wheels in gravel all over the place. >> do you understand now how it that sheriff smith intervened to stop the burial, what his motives were? >> from what i gather through the year, that county was a little more fair than tallahassee. he was not going to have that stain on his record. he did all he could to get these men. he went up against the segregationists.

my dad went back for the kidnapping trial. same thing. he was determined to get justice . the sheriff of tallahassee was he testified for the defendant. i didn't know if he was supposed to do that or not. the sheriff working for the prosecutor? >> i did not know that. smith testified for the defense? >> yes. he was a defense witness about the body that was pulled out of the tallahassee river. connected to the defense

argument that we are not even sure this is the right body. it is interesting. sense inith in some thisf this landscape of ubiquitous and white racist culture, george smith is doing his job as a sheriff and at least in that small moment -- >> he tried. there were too many overcomeonists to them. he did what he could. he arrested them. he had a grand jury hearing on them and whatnot. the grand jury said not enough evidence. >> that was before the kidnapping trial. >> there were eyewitnesses. they admitted they took him. it was a done deal. that shows you how invasive and evil segregationists were. >> did you had to go in front

of a grand jury? >> yes. later they'reard trying to get an indictment in tallahassee county or the floor -- leflour. >> you do not go to chicago for the trial, for the funeral. >> i did not. we had to stay for the trial. to identify the ring that was taken off the body. daddy never identified to the ring. he said the ring cleared it up. i said that was bobo's ring, that is what we called him. i didn't know what i was doing. that is how they trick you up. know. this was emmett's ring.

the only reason i was not called was ms. tial witness ll identify the ring is being her sons. >> you are anticipating being called as a witness. he spent time during the trial waiting in the witness room. can you recall and describe that? it was a complicated several days. can you describe some of the things that come first to your mind many things about that? one, the bailiff was extraordinarily nice to me and made sure i was comfortable. the cameras and the newspaper were justand all swarming around, even when i would go outside of the witness room, it was a circus atmosphere.

i am thinking it is a done deal. we're going to get a conviction. i guess i watch too many movies. the bad guy always got caught. i have learned the lesson about segregation and racism. back on all ofnk the folks who came to the courthouse and it was 12 white men on the jury and that judge, do you ever ask yourself how these people can hold this sort viewpoint, this whole way of thinking about race in the world? any way you can think about that that makes any sense to you? >> i have been reflecting on it. but it not make sense goes deeper than the color of my

skin. as i reflect, it goes all the way back to the civil war where these men lost a way of life. they blame me because i am black. aristocrats of america and they lost it. from that day, the hatred began to fester and had been passed on down through the generations. are not born with that. someone has to teach them that. the young men that we played with, they were not racist. we ate together. we fought together. we punched snakes together. sooner or later, someone had to differentthat we were ,n that you couldn't play with

after you get a certain age you had to separate. even my mother told me one boss man had a son named tommy. me to goto get swimming. my mother said one day when you get older your going to have to call him mister. i said not so. i'm not going to do it. there was a change right then. i have been thinking. man mister, he might be young enough to be my grandson. i call him mr. because of his position. becauseall him mister, beca he is white, no. >> i would like to spend a few movees talking about the your family been made with your

father that it is time to go, we will leave. can you describe how this all came to pass? >> i remember after the trial was over and we got out of that lized we had we rea no one to help us. the verdict "not guilty." people rejoicing. the segregationists were rejoicing. we were crushed at that vertex. -- verdict. what was goingof to take place but it still crushed in. he came home that saturday morning after the verdict. he said "boys, we cannot stay here any longer, we have to leave." father had taken the position to testify, something

that put him and all of you in a very precarious and dangerous position. >> dangers, yes. >> he decided to testify anyway. >> he understood that because the neighbors was trying to convince him not to testify. they said they are going to kill you. the neighbor was down for the den -- naacp. they said they would do all to protect them. one day my dad said i know i will testify. whether i live, i do not know. he knew he could be killed over this. he said a man has to do what a man has to do. he did it. he did something that no other black man had ever done in mississippi and lived to tell about it. months later, did your father ever talk with you about that night? did he revisit that?

>> no. he never talked about what happened at the store. we never brought that up. mother, she never really asked us what happened. for years i would talk about it. after 20 years, they saw me on television. we have no idea. because i never talked about it. my daddy put his life on the line. he was so devastated. sending your son in the care of someone else and the comes up killed or murdered. it destroys you. it just tears your heart apart. he was willing to die to bring

justice to emmett till. >> can you talk a little bit about both your mother and her father when they made the transition into a new life in chicago? at odds clearly so much with the life they had known. such a big shift under tragic circumstances. >> the light in mississippi, working with so much different in the north. to hunt,sippi you had you could fish. mississippi even now, if it is raining, i love rainy days. mississippi, if it rains you got a day off. the next day you could go fishing. the work was different. at that time, my dad was 64. he was 63 at the time. we went back and got the census

records and whatnot. movedt time, we through the summit. there was no job for a 63-year-old in the fact raise. they just was not going to hire you. you are too old. get the job or make the money that he was making in mississippi. he made good money in mississippi. we had a boss man that was a german. he was fair. he was a born-again christian. he was fair to us. dad always clear the money. at the end of the year, 2000. about $6,000. that is after all your bills are paid. today that is a lot of money. when he got here, all he could find was restaurant work, cleain ning up. the thing that really helped us was my older brother james.

he had a four flat. livet my dad and family there rent free until my dad moved out in 1964 i believe. i never left home. my mama cooking everyday and washing my clothes? they left me. the place they got was not big enough for me and i lived on my own ever since then. >> what about your mother's experience? >> that experience or changed her. i think it took years off of her life. she never could get over that. she was a church woman. she was used to singing. you can hear her singing every day in mississippi. i do not remember her singing here because of that. she worried abouti t. ut it.

herink what really helped the one day she was thinking about it. she said the spirit of the lord said "these men have killed whole families and nothing was done. i spared your family from being killed." comfortedat her. she never could shake it. maurice always thought my dad should have resisted. resist with what? he doesn't have a gun. how are you going to resist? resisting probably would have been death to us all. in thed onto her faith lord until she passed away. i call 70 young. all, i tell you. what did the writer say?

he took one look at my mother and he said [inaudible] -- and said she was an educated. how can you look at a person and say she is auneducated? african-american culture was well educated back appeared she did all of the reading. she told about all of the stories and the bloomberg cases in the kidnappings -- lindberg cases and the kidnappings. we heard this from my mother. she never wanted us to go on ice in mississippi. my brother was ice fishing and the ice broke and he almost died.

to him ishing i said you know better. mama told you not to do that. he will not do it anymore. she was somebody. only 12 which is pretty young. up and had to make the whole transition. went to school. >> write down the school. -- right down the street. goes to thehis question of how we try to make sense of these kinds of things. king came to chicago. he brought a certain message and a certain strategy to chicago. was not necessarily a

message that persuaded you. can you talk about that? >> he wanted us to march with him in chicago. nonviolence. my friends and i were told that if we got slapped or spit only cannot retaliate. we said "no way." we're going to sit out back. my car not going to stop and pull me out of it. it is not going to happen. a lot of people got ran over. my carot going to stop and met you pull me out. i knew for mississippi what then segregationists do to you. person, butviolent if you slapped me i was going to try to slap you back if i thought i could win.

if i did not think i could win i would wait my chance. age 24, i was getting into a lot of scuffles. nothing serious. we ding. guns and knives. it was despite some whatnot. boys start drinking beer. they had to call us the "n" word. we knew that. when they did, the fighting started. my friend jesse who has passed , one night at about age 204i am sitting in this tavern. i heard this voice very clearly. i had a buzz. "i lovece didn't say you" or "what you have been through" but "if you die from your sins, you're going to hell."

that changed my life. i let that happen within two weeks. i had quit drinking. quit smoking. equipment girlfriend. -- quit my girlfriend. i went to church. i committed my life to christ's. is i see the non-violent way the way to go. if you're going to change things , it has to be nonviolent. if you resort to violence, then the authorities are going to resort to violence and a lot of people are going to be killed. in america. we see it overseas where people are being killed by the government. i have not forgotten kent state. it'll happen in america. trust me. even today. the nonviolent way is the way to go. my early years i did a lot of things.

after i got my first job, i never had to ask my dad for another dollar. i knew he did not have it. i started shining shoes on the street. i did pretty good. the nested or the working in the bowling alley. hard work. harder than picking cotton. it was just two or three hours long. >> resetting pins? have too tick u -- you pick up two pinsin one hand. i had a friend of mine. this is what she said. "i have never known him to be broke." i cap money in my pocket. i shined shoes. after i left the street, i started shining in a shoeshine parlor.

i have my own intellect not as of high school. hightil i got out of school. i finished that. i got a different job. i stayed there about three years. then i got a job at reynolds a laborer.ing as i said this is crazy. i'm going back to school. this don't make sense. those planning on going to college. i read about an apprenticeship program starting up in the pipe shop, electrical machine shop. i took the test for machine shop. i have machine shop in high school. no opening came up. told me we've got an opening in a pipe shop or

electrical. i thought about electricity, my goodness. i said let's do the pipe shop. the prison ship program was add totrative by 597 chicago. 1994 pip968 until fitting. construction.side i retired from reynolds after 28 years at age 51. august 26, 1994. >> is that right? >> august 26. a couple of more days until august 28. the night emmett was kidnapped. >> you have lots of extended family here, people whose lives

are all connected. t had anomething thas ?bvious presence in your lives this is something you publicly acknowledged. was this big knowledge amongst you in any circumstances? embers of the family memeber were quiet about it. they do not want to talk about it. especially on my mothers side. they were so devastated about it. they wouldr's side, bring it up sometimes. it was my uncle that drove ust o the train station.

it is something like a tragedy about that even my friends when i was reading and acting a full, i never brought it -- fool, i never brought it up, they would. is not something i will bring up myself but if you bring it up i will talk about it. >> can you describe your relationship with reverend parker now? you know, he is a little bit taller than i am. i try to whip him one time. i did not do too good. down through the years, he was ol.high scho -- shecome to this place would come to this place. say he'sook at him and

got something i want. every time i would see him i would see the difference. i would see the joy in the piece that he would have. this is an sitting in for jesus christ. example should start -- it would start. it would cause me to see the joy. someone?ever wake he got married. i was selected to be the best man. he is still married. that is his strength. he was trained to keep them, not

put them away. now he is my pastor. church i am deacon but the second and third graders. we have a wonderful time. that is more important to me. the tille about case and how it found it's way back in a more involving wayi into your life. >> for years i would not talk about it. it started after i began to look at the documentaries. some of the reporters that i toldd to would take when i what happened to the story and

they would merge it with what is in history and that messed it all up. there's so much stuff out there now, especially on the internet. it is not all true. i see these stories and inaccuracies. i can name them. my daddy escaped mississippi in a coffin. they dared him to go say something. he did not whistle. hicks said this abuot mout my father. i am glad i put a portion of my dad's testimony. all of these things that

bring back sad memories. i am trying my best to let people know. it is a sad story. changes can be made. it depends on the generation in it depends on the generation in charge. the generation of the jim crow system, they made the laws and they did not abide by them. that is sad. >> let me ask you about 2004. , there is aribe series of things that happens. this caused the case to be reopened and there were some fairly significant events associated with that.

>> home of the things, he tried to get me to talk to him, no matter how long. said, why does you talk to him. boy and he was a black heber believed. i told them about what happened at the store, what happened in my bedroom. he began to investigate and he came across a gun that was used. he came across certain things that took place. he came across some violations that had taken place and federal can justify them and actually get them into the problem.

mr. greenleaf, he talked to the state's attorney. i went into his office and i told him this story of what happened and he was visibly shaken. he promised me at the time that he would do all he could to get the case reinvestigate it. i left mississippi believing that he was going to do that. he did. ,e told me about the prosecutor mr. cap man, i believe. he never could shake that. he was so disappointed. that he died before his time. so, a lot of people, white and black, were very upset over what happened to him and what happened to the justice system in mississippi but i could not do anything about it. thingeally interesting

about that reopening of the case , that it gets lost as a joint effort between the justice department and the state employees and all of these years later, as we know, some things have changed and interestingly aough, the prosecutor is now woman. aboutd like you to talk how this was in chicago, dna testing is done. ultimately, you get a report with no explanation from mississippi that the case will not be reopened. particularly, carolyn bryant. and you describe that series of events, in your book you said that you finished that experience not understanding why even now that that case was not pursued.

the state of mississippi and the federal government combined, the state of mississippi told us that unless we could prove to them immaterial,y was they would not reopen the case if they had enough information. so, that is why we had to do the explanation. theut in motion to exhume body. of course, that was our position. we found out later that some of the civil rights, so-called civil rights workers put up their. the newspapers announcing that there was a controversy and the family, some family said, we agreed on that. family about the exhumation. i said get out. i said we agreed on that already.

the girl that's protesting, she wasn't born then. and the people that was putting her up to it, they just wanted to get some tv time. because during that time, there was nine of us that had a say so. six of them was in my family. so we had 6-3 right there. there was never a controversy. we exhumed the body. we found out some things that has been reported that wasn't true. the dna testing was done. couple of weeks ago i found out i was a donor -- i never told anyone, i said i don't like to go around, you know. we found out that he wasn't castrated like some said.

i didn't know. i didn't go around and found out he wasn't castrated, his teeth weren't knocked out. it had to be proved to mississippi. and the dna testing proved to the state of mississippi there was indeed emmett buried and afterwards we had gone through all of this, gathered all of the information, traced the gun back, the shelling that was used back to bryant and milan, the state of mississippi still came out and joyce childs said there just wasn't enough information to bring an indictment against her. maybe someone else might look at the evidence and say well we got

enough. >> do you know, did joyce childs who is the local prosecutor at the time, down in mississippi, do you know if she was able to question mrs. bryant or was she able to in anyway -- >> i don't think she -- of course the fbi was in charge. he told me she wanted immunity. she wouldn't talk but wanted immunity. >> interesting. >> they wouldn't give it to her. >> right, right. interesting. huh. how did you feel at the end of that couple of years, having -- that's a lot to go through. >> well, i was greatly disappointed that, you know, you just indict her, make her talk. give her something to think about. but they didn't do it.

from what i understand joyce childs didn't present the gays before the grand jury. it was one of her associates. and i don't know whether she was forceful or persuasive in her arguments or what. >> another part of the long legacy of this case that will take you to washington subsequent then in -- on several occasions -- and that's what some persons call the till bill. can you talk about the genesis of that legislation and kind of your perspective on its course and its form? >> well, it started with evan sykes out of kansas city, missouri. he pursued the case and

apparently he had connection with the senator from kansas city and they pursued to get the till bill passed, a bill that's designed to set aside funding to go after cold cases that has not been settled and they began to pursue that. they began to talk about it. i probably felt the same way when they said we're going to try to reopen the case, i said it will never happen. as they began to pursue and phone calls were made and one day i got a call and said they are going to have a vote on the till bill, can you come to washington. so my wife and i we jumped in our car and we drove to washington and we were sitting in the gallery when they were debating the bill, but that day it wasn't passed. one hold out senator and later on a few months later they came together and they passed the till bill, setting aside i think

a million dollars to go after cold cases in honor of emmett till. i think this is great legislation because a young man was killed for no reason at all and this is one way to remember him. to show the world that -- the other thing i was locking for, i doubt it would happen, the state of mississippi or the county come out and say the verdict was unjust. i don't think they have enough nerve to say that. even if they don't have enough nerve, just give me the permission for me to say it for them. i'll speak for them. i'll tell them the verdict was upjust. if the verdict was just, if there was a guilty verdict, we wouldn't be sitting here today talking about emmett till. we would have forgotten about it by now.

but because of that verdict emmett's memory and legacy is still alive. >> i want to ask about, you've done things were so askew and some key details. in that connection, i want to ask you about your perspective on james hicks and william bradford hughley. hicks was a journalist that 55ered the case in sumner in for the black press, and he we broke -- wrote a piece in the

january issue. reporter, ithe think at the time he worked for the african-american press. out, i'm not sure exactly when he came out with this, daddies testimony. i have a copy of the trial transcript. my father said, there he is. he helped my daddy escape mississippi's and he began to describe a report someone from washington heversity, st. louis, that was helping my daddy escape and

telling me how fast he was driving one way, driving 75 and thathour all stop they put my daddy in a coffin and they drove him to memphis, tennessee. so, i asked the question, i said, three sons there. how did they get out? it is inaccuracy is like this and i'm trying to correct. he said, why did he say that? he one the world to think he was an expert. and he came up with a preposterous idea. i have no confidence in his when he wrote the piece and said that he took one look at my mother and realized that she was uneducated. then he said that he interviewed us and that we showed him where

bryant lived. and we showed him where bryant lived. his white girlfriend lived. and we were discussing did he ever go to bed with her. i said get out of here. we never talked to him. he never interviewed with us. i don't know how much money he made off of it but these things he put out there. so i don't believe practically anything he said. even the interview with bryant and milan. i don't believe all he said about what took place. i don't need him to say that to convince me that they killed emmett till. i didn't need that. i knew that before he wrote that piece. but why he did it, some say he was a checkbook journalist, whatever that means. but he did it. he put a lot of inaccuracies out there. i'm trying to correct it. set the record straight.

i just got a call from a lady who wanted me to endorse a play in virginia, hampton, virginia. she told me what was in the play. i said i don't endorse stuff that's not true. i will not speak to the press to give you any publicity on that because they had in this play that emmett was trying to say bubble gum and that we put him up to doing what he did. she thanked me. she said you're awfully brave. i don't have to be brave to say that. i'll tell you the way it is. if it's not true i'm not going to endorse it. tell the truth or shut up. >> there's another one of these inaccuracies and it's an important one and i want to ask you about it. there was even an account that circulated that your brother

maurice had taken -- had been persuaded of 50 cent store credit by the bryant store to assist in locating your house. >> right. i read that in a magazine, 1995. i think that's the first time i've seen that in print. i was shocked. i was shocked that that was out there that maurice for 50 cent store credit would show them where we live. all the reports i heard bryant and milan wasn't home from that wednesday night until that friday night. but this is not true. we had no credit at bryant's store. we hardly ever went in there. the other stores hadn't been open he was going somewhere else. but that was the only store open that night. trust me, no credit. cash only.

>> as you think back on how you make your way with all of this, can you talk a little bit about how are you view of this, of the indispensability of nonviolence became your perspective on this question and how you think about that issue now? >> well, what happened at age 24 when dr. king came to town in 1966, he wanted us to march. i said no way. i wasn't a proponent of nonviolence at the time. i thought that you have a right to protect yourself, to fight back. but then at age 24 i was, after -- i don't know if we had a fight or what that night. no one was seriously hurt. sitting in a tavern about 2:00

a.m. and i heard this voice, it wasn't an audible voice but i heard this voice. a lot of people say oh -- he didn't say he loved me or he didn't say i know what you've been through. but this is what i heard. he said if you die in your sins you're going to hell and that changed my life forever. within two weeks i haven't had a drink since that was 1967. february, 1967. i took my cigarette, through them in the garbage. i called my girlfriend over to my house. i laid her off. quit her. because church back then couldn't kiss a girl, what are you going to do with her? i just committed my life to christ and i would catch the bus and go to chicago to stay in a hot church service because when i was out in the world i was having so much fun that i knew that if i had gone back i would

never make it back and ever is in then i never have really a fight. i've been in a couple of tussles, a couple of young boys -- you know how 16-year-olds are, they rise up and reflection. i didn't hit them i just grabbed them. put a chokehold on them and they couldn't get away. embarrassed them. that's about all. i've been walk being with jesus christ since 1967 and that changed my perspective to love your enemy, love one another, treat others as you wanted to be treated and that's the way i live now. i treat others the way i want to be treated. >> you've written that it became necessary for to you do something that was very difficult but you felt necessary for you and that was to forgive bryant and milan and i'm wondering what you mean exactly when you say that and how and what precisely you think about

in your faith and sense of ethics what does it mean to forgive them in a context like this. >> they did a great crime against my family, against emmett and when things like that happen to you, you want vengeance. you want to get even. usually you can't get even with people who committed this crime against you and you'll do it to somebody else and you'll do that until you are able to forgive those people for doing it. forgiveness in a sense that i'm not saying that justice shouldn't come your way. forgiveness in the sense that i'm not going to pursue for vengeance, i'll leave vengeance to almighty god and justice to the federal government and i'll use the rest of my life -- because i don't want to get up -- i know a lot of people

don't believe in heaven or hell or final judgment -- i don't want to get up in judgment and i have something against him. i don't want that to happen. god said if you don't forgive them i won't forgive you. i heard it explained different ways and whatnot. but it's a difficult process, it's not something that's going to happen overnight. it's something that as you submit your will god will help you through it. pretty soon you forget about, you know, the hurt, the anger, and whatnot and the vengeance. you don't seek vengeance now, you seek justice. that's what i mean by forgiveness. >> this is a difficult question to answer, but what set of emotions do you feel when you think back about all of this? what's the mixture of feelings that you have? >> it depends on what brain

cells are feeling. i was just in houston about a month ago, i smelled the hon honeysuckle. i said to my nephew that's honeysuckle. he said what's that. but that smell of that flower brings back the time i lived in mississippi. a certain noise, a car going down the street because i lived there at night and every car i heard i thought it was j.w. milan bringing emmett back. it brings back emotions. when things bad happen to you, your heart is broken. it's shattered. and god has to heal that. but in each broken heart, i love to tell the kids this, especially the little ones, when you have a broken heart, the heart heals but it leaves scar tissue and a certain bump will

bring back that night. it will bring back the hurt. it will bring back the grief that we had but it will past. but it still comes back. but i feel that if i hadn't foregiven these people, when it came back i would try to act it out on probably someone else. that's the value of forgiveness and i tell the kids, i said there's a story in the old testament, 18th chapter of jeremiah, where the lord sent jeremiah to the potter's house. he said i'm going to cause you to hear my word there. he saw the potter making a vessel and the vessel was marred in his hand. i was marred but i went to the

potter's house and the potter made me over again and now i'm able to smile. >> how do you measure the wider legacy of the emmett till case in our nation's history and our sense of transition or some measure of transition in our race relations and our habits and morays and opinions. >> i've seen a lot of changes. the emmett till case brought a lot of changes in the laws, federal law mostly. thank god federal law trumps state law. still a lot of changes there. men's heart, i don't see too much change there. laws can't change a man's heart. relationship is better. i see things happening now that i never dreamed that would

happen that i don't know whether it's good or bad. but it's happening. it's getting better. but then i see racism is alive, like i've said many time. once you've seen a water moccassin you know. under jim crow system it was in your face it was forced upon you. even if you had the money you couldn't move to a better neighborhood. now in order to have the better life in america you have to have the money. but it's getting better. as each generation comes on the scene, they see the injustices that have taken place and they hear about emmett, hopefully because a lot of the states are

trying to bury that. they don't want, the school system don't want that known to their children. they are trying to bury it. once they find out what happened in 1955 to emmett till they are horrified and they promised and they make it their life legacy to bring about a change. bring about a change. like the, i don't know the gentleman's name that prosecuted the ku klux klan man that burned that church. it's happening. it's taking place. slowly. but hopefully economic plight now doesn't slow it down.

it has a lot to do with it also. >> you mentioned the honeysuckle in houston. do you ever, have you ever felt an impulse to go back to mississippi. does that call you at all? >> repeat the question. >> sure. you mentioned honeysuckle down in houston and how it provoked this memory of mississippi. in all these years have you ever felt any impulse to go back to mississippi. >> to live? >> to live, to visit. >> i go back to visit. >> i know you do. i guess in a way what i'm asking more directly put is when you think of that place, what's the mix of feelings? >> well, it's in one sense a place of horror but another sense it was a place where i was born and raised and all of my childhood, the good memories,

they are still there. and the bad memories. and if i go down a dark filled road my wife says a whole new spirit comes over me. i told her one day i'm from this dirt. but to live, i don't think so. i wouldn't want to. it's something like florida. good place to visit, i don't want to live there. not trying to put florida in the sense of, but it's the sense of beautiful there but then here come the bugs. >> mr. wright, you've been so generous with all your time and accommodating us, i just want to check in with you one last time, are there things that we haven't talked about that you would like to finish up here with today?

>> oh, i talk about it, finish up with the young people. go to school, listen to your teacher. respect your elders. love one another. fight for one another. you can change the system. what i see coming is horrible. but hopefully somebody will wake up and say hey we're in this together. we saw some things that took place in chicago this year, the chicago police. but especially the bartender that was beaten by this one policeman. i'm sitting here horrified how they are trying to get this one guy off. i can't believe this. it doesn't matter to me whether you're black, whether you're white. if you commit the crime you should do the time.

identify seen cases down through the years black men commit crime and got away with it. i said it's not right. it's not right. you do the crime, do the time. >> you are watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span three. to join the conversation, like us on facebook. >> mekala audain who is a phd candidate at rutgers, thank you for being with us. your research has focused on the fugitive slave run the early 1800s until the end of this civil war in 1865. explain what you found. >> i looked at slaves from louisiana who escaped to spanish texas in the aftermath of the louisiana purchase. my projectti