generalship is one that you're right is taking place, authors like richard mcmurray and steve davis and some others. so, thank you. [ applause ] you're watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. next on "the civil war." emanuel dabney discusses the role of the u.s. colored troops in the battle of the crater during the siege of petersburg. after weeks of tunnelling on july 30th, 1864, union forces blew up a mind underneath the confederate lines to create a gap in the defenses. mr. dabney discusses why the attack ultimately ended in a failure and why the u.s. color troops were unjustly blamed. this event was part of the gettysburg college civil war institute's annual summer conference.

it's about an hour. >> good morning. i will prewarn you today you will hear language that we fould repulsive. i'm not going to cut it out because it makes us quiver. we'll get started. on june 12th, 1864, after fails to defeat robert e. lee's army of northern virginia, lieutenant general ulysses s. grant accompanying major general george g. meade's army of the potomac and a portion of the army of the james pulled away from the fortifications at cold harbor and began the movement toward petersburg. some troops to the bermuda region north of petersburg to begin the attack on the city the following day of june 15th. petersburg in 1860 had been virginia's second largest city. with a population 18,266 folks.

since the war of 1812, it had been referred to as the -- four railroads radiated from the city by 1860. the petersburg railroad which ran south to weldon, north carolina. the richmond in petersburg, obviously connecting those two places. the south side which ran from city point, modern day hopewell, virginia, through petersburg, to lynchburg. and the norfolk and petersburg. in addition to petersburg's railroads, the city possessed four cotton factories, three flour mills, four iron foundries and three planing mills. the discussion we were just having about the importance of places are going to be cranking out supplies and food for the confederacy throughout the war. in addition to that industrial

activity, the confederacy operated several wartime plants within or near the city. still functioning in the summer of 1864. including lead works, artificial bids to obtain gun powder. a wartime blockade, getting back to the interests in the blockade, had created even greater importance for the petersburg railroad because at weldon, a separate railroad company, weldon in wilmington operated connecting petersburg with european-ran goods through the blockade there at wilmington. grant wanted -- i should have clicked a while ago. here's petersburg. grant grant wanted to cut off richmond's communication and transportation of goods from and through petersburg, and, of course, destroy lee's army. june 15th to the 18th before lee even really fully arrived at

petersburg, union troops assaulted the city but failed to capture it. seize operations began and along one part of the line, the men in major general burnside's ninth corps was less than 400 feet from the confederate earth works. in the midst of the summer of 1864's drought and heatwave was the constant sharp shooting and construction of earth works and a plan had developed to break this campaign before it lasted much longer. as early as june 21st, lieutenant colonel henry pleasant's infantry thought -- he later noted greatest enthusiasm for the project was his division commander brigadier general robert potter and his core commander andros burnside. 48th pennsylvania infantry began excavating the mine on the 25th

of june for whatever reason people remember it started at 12:00 noon. so if you're a detail-oriented person, they left it for us. the work was performed night and day. seven days a week. even in the intense summer heat which often exceeded 105 degrees. the concerns about ventilating the mine were addressed and represented in the images here. fresh air entered an eight inch square wooden duct circulated through creating -- fire was created which would send the bad air out through a chimney shaft. canvas door was placed over the entrance to keep fresh air in and keep, allow miners to get in and out of the shaft. as laborers extended the mine, so, too, with the wooden duct system would be extended and by the 17th of july, the mine will reach the 510.8 feet that

pleasant had first proposed. two galleries are going to be extended which was represented in this image at the top. underneath the confederate position in which the gun powder is supposed to be packed. while the 48th pennsylvania infantry dug the mine, ambros burnside crafted a battle plan. three weeks ahead of the assault, he informed edward fuerro, you see there, commanding division of u.s. color troops of his plan to use those men first. burnside expected 12,000 pounds of gun powder to explode somewhere around daybreak or at least by 5:00 a.m. then the black soldiers would be massed in double columns all ready to pass through the fwgapn the enemy's line. lead regimen of the brigade was to be perpendicular to the federal line and execute this by maneuvering to the north, the right of the educatixplosion si

the brigade on the left was to do the same but in reverse. the remaining regiments were to move as quickly as possible to the crest in front as rapidly as possible. then the white troops of burnside's corps and others would soon follow. ferrero was directed to drill his enthusiastic troops but not veterans. for this attack. however, this is an issue we still don't know all the details of. were the u.s. color troops trained, were they not trained? depends on who you ask. captain robert beacham of the 23rd recalled only one drill between june 22nd and july 29th and there was, as he said, nothing specific to this particular battle maneuver. but they were, as he said, most common in simple maneuvers. others recall specialized training like colonel bates commanding the u.s. color troops who remember time after time did

my regiment go through the imaginary advance, turn to the left, and advance along the line. every officer and every private knew his place and what he was expected to do. and so in short, i'll say we don't know if they were trained or not. what we do know is the confederates figure out what's going on with the union mining activity just five days after the federals have started. this man is to, on confederate side, to be praised for lucky guessing. many of you in this audience, your attention to gettysburg, know edward porter alexander. he's inspecting the lines on june 30th. he's expecting to see the seize operations of 19th century warfare taking place, trying to extend union lines, get them closer to the confederates, but he's not noticing that. he notices, however, there's

intense sharp shooting coming into this position and he thinks seriously that the enemy isn't going to come, as he said, above ground, but they were coming under ground. they were mining us, he later wrote. i always say on my tours, it's important to know that this isn't farmer joe's son, probably wouldn't have guessed this. alexander is a graduate of west point, third in his class of 38. and so he knew this sort of world of siege operations which could include mines. alexander reported his suspicions to headquarters, southern countermining began in several places but they were not in elliot salient area go deep enough below ground to collapse the union mine. in addition to countermining, confederates are busy constructing another single line of earthwork behind the position. just because of the intense

amount of sharp shooting and artillery fire, the confederates had it was later stated practically honeycombed the area in between this new cavalier trench and the back of elliot salient with bombproofs. what they didn't know is this would soon enough create an obstacle for the federals. what's planned beyond the cavalier trenches, alexander's orders to move up more artillery. it's going to be in a horseshoe-shaped ring around this region and the confederates are going to have 30 cannon and 5 mortars to use against any union infantry attack in that particular area. the plan developed by burnside began unraveling almost as soon as army headquarters got the plan. july 27th, 8,000 pounds of gun powder arrived instead of the

12,000 as meade's engineer has decided that that's all that they'll need. a single fuse arrived in segments, 10 to 15 feet in length, which required multiple splicing. the plans for the attack which burnside had proposed were changed by general meade. on the morning of july 28th, meade and burnside had a showdown about the battle plan. meade stated, at a military court of inquiry a few days after the battle, that black soldiers were just too green for this attack. later that year, grant testified to congress, congressional committee investigating the crater. general meade said if we put the color troops in front, we had only that one division, and it should prove a failure. it would then be said, and very properly, that we were shoving these people ahead to get killed because we did not care anything about them. but that could not be said if we put white troops in front.

since burnside protested this last-minute change, meade stated he wouldn't talk with grant about it and it's important to understand that technically burnside outranks meade. been a contentious sort of thing since burnside had arrived back east in the spring. and so grant outranks both of them. he can decide. once he hears the plan which he only will hear from meade. so meade really represents what his opinion is and gives kind of the post-script version of what burnside feels and grant agrees with meade. however, neither general bothered to inform burnside of this until july 29th at 11:00 a.m. when meade and another union general appeared at burnside's headquarters. burnside still wants the plan that he had to go forth, and he is going to ask meade, cannot this be changed? and meade says, no, the order's

final. besides the use of the u.s. color troops, meade objected to the maneuvers that burnside wished to perform. meade simply wanted the men to go up promptly and take the crest. problem with that not very detailed order is it doesn't take into account the other confederate troops that are to the north of the explosion site, and i should point out that the objective here is to take the high ground at lanford cemetery, which is to the north a few hundred yards of elliot salient. so meade in this other union general leave burnside to figure out what he's going to do. calls for these eligible division commanders now and that will include orlando wilcox, in the center there, james ledley on the left, and robert potter on the right.

despite burnside's later realization he should have probably selected willcox and potter, he felt like they divisions had been very used up, so he selects james ledlie. ledlie, some as you know, has a fondness for alcohol, and it's been exhibited most kind of notably at the battle of north hannah river, late in may of 1866186 1866 and again on june 17th. during the day and night of july 29th, final preparations made that include moving 510 federal cannon and mortars across a two-mile front to be used right after the explosion takes place and try to, of course, pin down confederates as the attack moves forward. white troops move into their position. of course, now in front, ferrero's troops are going to be in the back of this attacking

column. colonel pleasants will go in on july 30th, light the fuse, 3:30 in the morning. didn't go off. 4:15, two people volunteered to go back inside to figure out what's gone wrong. most of the time on my tours, i don't have many people say, that would be me. occasionally i get it, though, and i say, you brave person. they relit the fuse and at 4:44 a.m., the gun powder explodes as represented in this image from "harper's weekly." quarter master sergeant jamespayne of the 27th u.s. color troops wrote afterwarsds, on saturday morning the 30th, one of the enemies' forts which the garrison were imposing in pleasant slummer, dreaming of no danger or apprehending any was blown up, destroying nearly all who were in it at the time. the hole in the confederate line was now 170 feet long, and 30

feet deep, about 60 feet wide. few confederates in the position are going to live to tell the tale. somewhere between 278 and 350 men from south carolina regiments in position and 19 men in the confederate artillery there are going to become casualties in the blast. but the battle that follows reveals more about personalities and racial divisions than about military tactics and objectives. artillery shells belch from the federal's 110 cannon and 54 mortars as the battle began. ledlie's division deployed around 5:00 a.m., supported by robert potter and orlando willcox's men. of course, the confederates are going to respond, going to be a somewhat weak response at this particular moment from the infantry. though intense confederate artillery fire began to develop pretty rapidly.

particularly to the federals that it's coming from the right, so part of the army that james is going to be deployed to try to cover and push out some north carolinians that were to the north of the crater and silence whatever this gun battery is that's sending shells ripping through the ranks, and that's what's represented here, but i'm not going to really spend a lot of time talking about the white troops. should have come to kevin's talk yesterday about them. we're going to focus on the black troops. about 8:00 a.m., ferrero's division is ordered to attack. the first brigade in, joshua seeg freed and the first regiment, bates' 30th u.s. color troops. as they crash into the confederates, they begin to scream out, no quarter, and remember ft. pillow.

and some of you know, for those who don't, ft. pillow earlier in the year in april, confederate troops refused to accept sir ru surrender of most of the garrison of white and black troops and when the battle comes to its praised end, we have 150 white p.o.w.s and 58 black men, everybody else in the garrison of 600 has been killed or mortally wounded. it doesn't matter that these black troops weren't there, these white troops weren't there. this becomes a battle cry for the rest of the war with black troops. one confederate officer screamed to his men as he saw the black column coming, rally, boys, rally, and drive them back. they are nothing but -- immediately somehow in the sounds of battle, this is overheard by sergeant john offer. and a dozen other black combatants who charged the officer and one of the officers thrust a bayonet into the officer's chest.

following the 30th is the 43rd usct. within that regiment, captain albert d. wright captures the flag you see here on the left, thanks to cathie wright for providing that image. and he was wounded, himself. the mingling already of white and black troops in and around the crater and southern artillery is going to start to slow progress for the 27th and 39th usct of siegfried's brigade. colonel bates was shot in the face. the bullet traveled through his cheek and exited near his left ear. amazingly, bates survived and returned to duty in the fall of 1864. he has a pretty impressive mustache here already. gets bigger to cover up the, you know, part of his face that has been partially collapsed from the bullet. he'll receive a medal of honor for his actions here at the

crater. sergeant decatur dorsey of the 39th usct ran his regiment's flag ahead of the rest of the men, planted it on the surviving fortifications which encouraged the men to move forward. following on the heels of siegfried's men, a brigade, colonel henry thomas. thomas recalled, quote, deadly, eight guns on our right and murderous crossfire decimated us. the firepower forced thomas to admit his first regiment in will be mowed down like grass. thomas ordered the troops back into the area behind the crater which means having to try to move through the masses of white troops already there, which is also honeycombed with the bombproofs. you remember that. his attempts to rally and charge, again, are going to be met with doom. see thomas here on the left and

colonel john bross who gets himself all dandied up to go into this attack. he's got his best coat on, his best sword, best hat. he will stand on top of confederate earthworks that are surviving trying to encourage his men forward. and he will get shot down. captain robert beacham of the 23rd wrote that his soldiers in their attempt to charge the confederates again formed promptly, there was no flinching on their part. they came to the shoulder touch just like true soldiers. as ready to face the enemy and meet death on the field as the bravest and best soldiers that ever lived. but think for a moment of forming for an effective charge in that death valley. under a murderous fire, crowded literally jammed in with other troops, confused and broken up as we were. officers, of course, are going down. confederate artillery firepower is continuing. and infantry units on the confederate side are beginning

to move up. commanded by the only division of troops that lee actually commands, this particular day on the south side of the afamatix return, would turn out to be permanent by brigadier general william mahone. move up to initially brigades, later third. initially virginians he once commanded and currently commanded by david wizager, a native of petersburg and his georgia brigade now commanded by matthew hall, a lieutenant colonel. the virginians, as they get on to the battlefield, are kind of moving toward the battlefield, are going to encounter confederates who are running backwards. one informed mahone, hell has busted back thar. that's t-h-a-r, how it was spelled. another told the men, ah, boys,

you have hot work ahead. they are niggers and show no quarter. lieutenant colonel william stewart commanding the 61st virginia wrote very frankly many years later, this report from the men passing us was the first intimation that we would have to fight negroes and it seemed to infuse our little band with impetuous daring as it pressed forward to the fray. i never felt more like fighting in my life. our comrades had been slaughtered in a most inhuman and brutal manner, and black slaves were trampling over their mangled and bleeding forms. revenge must have fired every heart and strung every arm with nerves of steel. for the herculean task of blood. mahone gives a rallying speech that amazingly isn't filled with any sort of racially charged language. just before the virginians attack at 9:00 a.m. confederate officer in the 6th

virginia wrote with fixed bayonets and strong double quick they sprung forward from the ravine and rushed the foe, the packed trechb packed trenches. the b this was a veteran from 1861. virginians pay a heavy price to capture a few hundred feet of earthworks. the georgians will follow them in, and as virginian who was watching recalled, they made two attacks and they fell like autumn leaves. the georgians leave us some of our best accounts of their anger at the sight of armed black men, such as james varderi of the 48th georgia infantry sharing with his dear sister the day after the battle, the prisoners came leaping over our breastworks by 50 but our men took none, for they, he underlined this part, were niggers.

burnside's ninth army corps. as fast as they came over, the bayonet was plunged through their heart. others are knocked in the head with the butts of their gun. few would succeed in getting to the rear safe. dorsey binian, 48th georgian, someone who ought to know about beating black bodies since he had been over -- he was an overseer before the war began, told his dear sister, mary, just 11 days afterwards, when we got to the works it was filled with negroes and yanks crying out no quarter, when a hand-to-hand conflict ensued with the breach of our guns and bayonets, and you may depend on it, we did not show much quarter, but slaved them. keep in mind, we're writing to the prim and proper southern women, the scarlett o'haras of the south. they want to know what their men are doing on the battlefield. and now that they're fighting armed black men, they're providing the very details we have put down the slave

insurrection out here. alabamians finally get on the field around 1:00 in the afternoon. and it's perhaps during this time that sergeant dorsey of the 39th realized this battle was going to end in federal disaster. he grabbed his unit's flag, ran it across the no man's landfilled with confederate artillery fire, and planted that flag on top of the union picket line. for that, he will receive a medal of honor. sanders' alabamians attack along with the remnants of the other confederates on the field at that particular point. confederates are going to eventually -- launching bayonetted weapons over top of the rim of the crater as they get very close, they put their hats on the tops of their muskets and just ease them over the rim of the crater. the federals fire their last volley and this hand-to-hand

conflict really gets under way. inspiring, an alabamian, mcclellan, to say that all black soldiers, quote, would have been killed had it not been for general mahone who would beg our men to spare them. one soldier blatantly disobeyed mahone telling the virginia he would kill another and deliberately took out his pocket knife and cut one's throat. they bashed the heads of the negro skulls, the north carolinians said, like egg shells. and when the black troops cried out that they wanted quarter, the response was no quarter this morning, no quarter now. amazing amazingly, people like oliver scott made it off the battlefield. then only 27 years old, when he left slavery and enlisted in the 30th u.s. color troops. promoted to corporal. during the battle, he's wounded. tried to make that arrow there so folks all the way in the back

could see. he's shot in the hip. the bullet exited his butt. what's interesting to me about this photo is scott must have obeyed the rules of whoever his owner was. there's no sign of whip marks across his back. that desire to be free was so great that he had served. he's lucky that he manages to get off the field at all because the bullet is only going to pass three inches from his spinal column. another former slave of maryland, george carr, to years old going to be wounded this day. entering his right leg. second bullet entering the middle third of the inside of the leg and passed through. charles harris in the 31st u.s. color troops. native of new york. hit by a ball in the back of the right leg which passed through

the tibia and fibula and exited that leg that hit the left foot, causing compound fractures. as the confederates went about killing union troops, especially those of african descent, white union troops realize how angry the southerners were, and so as william taylor of the 100th pennsylvanian wrote the day after the battle, and as george kilmer remembered many years after the battle, white union troops will start killing black union troops as they readily admit in an effort to preserve white people's lives. the battle finally ends about 2:30 in the afternoon. batt battle's aftermath, going to be a court of inquiry. more or less the blame will be heaped up on burnside. there's going to be some blame for james ledlie and edward

ferrero who were drinking together during the battle. ferrero is going to more or less be slapped on the wrist. ledlie goes home on a furlough, never returns. burnside goes home on a furlough, never returns. federal casualties will be around 3,800 and u.s. color troops are going to suffer 219 killed, 957 wounded. and somewhere around 410 who are either captured or go missing. seen here represents the flag of truce that will finally happen on august 1st. burnside, who everyone likes to beat up as the civil war's idiot general, calls for a flag of truce a half an hour after the battle ends on july 30th. meade wants him to arrange a localized truce. he doesn't want to admit defeat

and just leave and get the wounded off the field even though it's 100-plus degrees. so they lay out there july 30th and all day on july 31st and finally they're picked up on the morning of august 1st. by that point, one of meade's staff members admits that he couldn't tell who was naturally african or european except from the texture of their hair. apparently not accounting for those bodies out there of mixed race black people. in the in between of this, henry bird, a native of petersburg wrote his fiancee as the men cried out nearby to the confederate line for water, the response from the confederates was -- [ speaking french ] you're not a french student. it was drink your blood, you'll have no more thirs, and they bayonetted the men that were nearby. news of the battle traveled, perhaps from our civilian perspective, of course we got to

have endond ruffin reference. remember ft. pillow and wrote about the great slaughter, but he was infuriated to learn that mahone had stopped his men from killing black and white troops. saying, mahone could not persist in this policy and he ordered the lives of all remaining to be spared. this is much to be regretted. even more angry is like the female version of edmond ruffon. catherine edmondston writing father days after the battle. it helps to illustrate our perception of southern ladies is too scarlett o'hara infused i think and not enough of catherine edmondston. the negro troops rushed into our line yelling no quarter, remember ft. pillow, she wrote. they were met by such determination by their old masters and granted what they so

ernest ernestly clambored for. they turned and ran. then she got this dubious story about somebody who was in the usct ranks who sees his old mississippi master. problem is there are no mississippi troops here. anyway, and wanted immediately to become his slave again. it follows, unlike that event actually happens, mrs. edmondston talks about the truth. few were left to tell the tale of their encounter. northern newspapers respond often with their biases. "new york herald" prints statements. within that section the author stated that the niggers set down their weapons and refused to obey orders and praised the white troops for being honorable, brave, and courageous, and if it wasn't for the, quote, niggers, they would have won the battle.

others amazingly turn to not being so critical, including actually general meade, of course, burnside, ferrero, officers who were actually on the field unlike ferrero, and garland white, a chaplain in the 28th usct who wrote, none of our troops, white or colored, are responsible for the actions of the generals. i hold that there can be no higher sin in all the world than to blame innocent people for consequences for which they are not responsible. i care not who it is, whether king or subject, general or private. it makes no difference with me in a point of the position of truth. i want to get to the prisoners and leave time for questions. the federal prisoners, white and black, union troops, are going to be marched through the city of petersburg at 8:00 in the morning on the day after the battle. petersburgers turned out in their finest garments, and lieutenant freeman bolie

remembered women in the city asking the confederates, why didn't you kill all the yankee wretches? they're being marched, two white, two black, until you run out of black troops. the generals that had been captured, the highest ranch ranching officers. a 9-year-old girl at the time recalling years later, i remember swinging on the gate as they brought the prisoners up hyde street. i remember yelling, kill them, everyone. she was 9 years old. remember that. her mother told her, come into this house or they'll be killing you. captain beacham of the 23rd gave us a good comment. the prisoners formed in columns by force consisting of alternate files of colored soldiers and commissioned officers. highest rank, as i said, going on down. as there were about 500 colored prisoners and about 1,100 white officers and soldiers, the greater part of the column presented a fantastic and variegated appearance that i am

free to confess was amusing. many white troops sent to prisoner of war camps including at andersonville, but captain beacham and lieutenant bolie who survived their prison experiences won't be going to, you know, the more famous places. beacham spends four months in jail in columbia, south carolina, where he admits that they actually were decently treated in columbia as they had not been in petersburg. black troops, however, won't get the same sort of treatment. and this representation of shokko bottom in richmond will be important in a moment. interesting story i found -- we'll talk more about this if you want to. john haskel, confederate ar till raist, out there, has mortars launching shells during the battle, found black wounded troops. he told his personal slave to go get the other camp slaves and get those men to a hospital

where his bodier y er iservant p to his owner and said, i'd rather die than move those men. none of the other camp negroes as haskel calls them wants to move them, either, so he finally gets a southern doctor who sends them to this hospital. whereby the following day after the battle, the physician in charge, john clayburn, finds 150 wounded black soldiers who were, as he wrote, naked with every conceivable forms of wounds and mutizati mutizati mutelizati mutelization. after threatening to send captured federal agents to andersonville, they joined in treating the black troops which may suggest a preview to eric's talk in a moment about andersonville. among those captured, peter churchwell, former slave who escaped, served in the 23rd usct and is captured. he's sent to danville where he recalled years later, i was kept until my master, old master, rather, heard i was in prison.

he came there and claimed me as a slave and sold me to a slave dealer at richmond, and he sold me to a slave dealer who took me to wilmington, north carolina. and he then sold me to patrick murphy who took me on his farm near raleigh. most of our black p.o.w.s are going to be returned to slavery, including right here in the heart of virginia's slave trading district, shokko bottom in richmond, virginia. and where the purple arrow is marked is where one of the petersburg region's former slave turned soldier robert banks will go to the dealers, dickinson, hill & company and be kept there until the war ends. so i'll stop there. because i'm out of slides. and i'll let you ask questions. [ applause ]

start over here. >> except for their -- my name is jeff smith. i'm from mechanicsburg, pennsylvania. i'm curious, except for their last-minute interference, it seems like meade and grant really deferred to burnside in the operations. after this disaster, there's, you know, 15,000 union troops involved in this operation. did any of this kind of land in their lap to any extent the responsibility for deferring such an important operation to, you know, burnside? >> not particularly. of course, as meade calls the court of inquiry, he's decided who's going to be on the court, and they're all people who don't like burnside, from the battle of fredericksburg in 1862 and the mud march in 1863, so they already have a negative opinion of burnside. he's the civil war's worst general. and meade's recorder is one of

his own inspector general from his staff. so none of them are going to say, meade, you're to blame, or grant, you're to blame. they heap the blame on burnside and rightfully with ledlie and ferrero. yes, sir? >> in the film version of the battle, in the movie they made of coal mountain, it's depicted of all the troops black and white kind of pouring into the crater, being trapped there. that's been told in other stories, too. is there any truth to that or is that really a problem that people went into the crater and couldn't get out, or is that just a legend? >> in case people didn't hear, question is did troops, white and black, rush through the crater into the hole, itself? it is partially true. ledlie's advance men do, as they move up, run into the crater. partly because they go in to

rescue on fconfederate trapped folks, provide prayer and water to those who were dieing. they said they couldn't ignore their rebel adversary, and of course some of their greatest pain in the last minutes of their life. but much of the wrunion troops e going to be pushed because the hole is only 170 feet long. they're going to be pushed on either side of it and somewhat beyond the hole, but not beyond the extra trench that had been created. the cavalier trench. so this is a moment of come to the battlefield, you'll get the sense of how that kind of happened. >> i want to confirm what i thought i heard you say is toward the back -- the last part of the battle. that the union, white union troops saw the confederates killing the blacks and the white union troops then started killing the blacks also? >> you are correct. white union troops start killing black union troops in an effort

as they write very specifically in an effort to preserve white men's lives. >> thank you. >> yep. >> it's my understanding that originally black troops were going to lead the attack and they were trained for it. and then -- and then either grant said no, no, no, we can't use blacks. and then troops -- and then ledlie's troops were used and they weren't trained. was it because -- so soon that they didn't have time, or i guess what i'm asking is there any way that the troops that did lead the attack came through the crater could have been better trained? >> yeah, the question is, could the white troops that were leading the attack eventually have been better prepared? the answer is no because we make these last-minute changes on

july 29th and battle is the next morning right at dawn. so there's no prep time. what's my time? okay. >> david rosen from alexandria, virginia. against the background of these circumstances, and what you've described, a little bit of humaneness compels a tension. i wonder if you could tell us something about mahone. >> yes. i'm not sure all you want to know, but i'll start with a brief biography. mahone is a native of southam southampton county, virginia, grows up in the era of the slave insurrection of 1832. graduates from virginia military institute. enlists at the beginning of the war. not anything superb, as brigade commander, but somehow really knows how to among a division, so his troops absolutely shoot james longstreet near where

jackson's mortal wound had been. richard anderson is moved up to first corps command. mahone is moved up to division command. he's promoted to major general. so he'll remain division commander until the surrender. >> what about the -- his showing of humaneness? >> oh, yes. so, yes -- you know, several people comment on this. he, you know, stops his soldiers from killing blacks as best as he can, and obviously he can't stop them all emven when they'r right in front of him. mahone is a slaveowner. he doesn't believe in equality at the beginning of the war or even perhaps when it ends, yet he has this miraculous sort of desire to become politician. he creates and sustained virginia's first biracial political party. the readjusters in the post-war years. and really sort of attempts to cater to blacks. even at one point admits that slavery was wrong and he

shouldn't have owned slaves, but, of course, you know, i'm sure they're all sort of political points he's trying to reach at that point. i don't know what it allmahone it. insurgents saying is this christian civilization? our own culture, is this christian civilization to use drones, drop bombs, blow up civilians? i don't know. i don't know what it says about him. >> mr. dabne whery, i thought particularly poignant of your comments, the white southern women. i have long thought that "gone with the wind" is a very damaging film. i view it as a propaganda film. not necessarily all that different than the nazi propaganda films made during that exact same era of the '30s. my question to you is, do you agree with my assessment of "gone with the wind" or do you disagree, and why? >> oh, brother.

or as scarlett would say, fiddely, diddely, dee. actually, there's something culturally impactful about "gone with the wind" that's still with us today, and i wouldn't go so far as to compare it to nazi propaganda films, having watched one that was 20 minutes and took me 2 days to make it through. i can sit and watch "gone with the wind" and make all sorts of jokes as i watch it. but, i mean, it does say something about 1939, the lost causes, entrenchment to having now film production. and the hopeful perpetuation of the racial divide in the country. and, of course, it was very popular, so most people north, south, east coast, west coast, middle of the country, liked this movie based on ticket sales and the continued popularity of

margaret mitchell's book. one more. oh. okay. keep going. oh, sorry. you, sir. >> question. we have this explosion that takes place and you have the bottom of a hole and the top of the hole. who provision, if any, was made by the union to get from the bottom of the hole to the top of the hole so you can invade the confederate lines? >> no provision made for the troops to get out of the crater once they're in it. and it's difficult to tell in numbers, craters are very hard. you have these lovely little battle maps here at gettysburg that shows this regiment, this place at 10:00 a.m. and 10:15, at 10:30. we don't have that with the crater because people are just too mingled up, all sense of cohesion of a battlefront is lost on both sides, north and south. and so it's unclear how many people are stuck in the crater.

they're stuck in there well enough for one survivor to say that the men who were dead couldn't fall and the living were squirming beneath their feet and blood is running into the tops of their shoes. so i don't know how many that is, but most people on the outside trying to move forward but the problem is they didn't know that these honeycombed bombproofs were behind the battery or a whole other line of confederate earthworks there or that the confederates have just right positioned their artillery to have this infillating fire, crossfire directly into what had been elliot sail yelient. they thought they knew were all cannon were. >> disclaimer. this may be a controversial question. >> yes. >> when the black soldiers were

captured and they were going to be sent to prison camps, how come confederates didn't re-slave them since they were considered property and there was a proclamation about a year or two years ago before the crater saying any black soldier who -- any black who becomes a soldier in the u.s. army will be shot and will be killed. or i also think also re-enslave. how come that policy didn't happen in '64? even though we had the emancipation proclamation. was that also a factor to it? >> so most of our crater black troops are not going to p.o.w. camps. so far i found four who goes to salisbury and qdie there. most are going to be sent to richmond and danville where advertisements are placed in the newspaper, come look for your runaway slaves and, of course, people come and look for them and take them back into their

ownership. some people don't come looking because they don't live in virginia. they're maryland runaways or delaware slaves. of course, there are free blacks from the north who have enlisted. so they'll be kept in these slave pens right down here in shokko bottom. and they'll be there if they survive until the war ends. some of these people rejoin their regiments and they go from missing in action to, you know, what happened to you? so we get the details of what happened to them. not very great details but at least, you know, which slave pen they may have been held in. and as far as why the confederates don't actually implement their may 1863 law, it's the law, i think people forget this. white officers had to be executed if they're found leading black men to combat, and blacks when captured, which already suggests you don't really need to take them prisoner, are going to be turned over to the state authority in

whichever state they've been captured in and dealt with as if they were leading a slave insurrection. it's just easier to kill them. as seen at poison spring, as seen at ft. pillow. as seen for many at crater. as will be seen in other battles during the war. thanks. >> this is a lesson learned question. during meade's conversation with grant, and grant being the commanding officer at vicksburg, and during the vicksburg siege there was another mine attempt there as well. didn't succeed. in your research, is there any conversation that has been recorded where grant reflects back the vicksburg and said, you know, we tried it there, didn't work, maybe we should not try here. just as a lessons learned. because, begagain, one big thin all militaries do, you capture your lessons learned, try not to repeat mistakes.

>> i spoke with terry when he was still at vicksburg. i can't find any evidence of grant saying anything about this vi vicksburg mine that was a disaster. when the petersburg mine came >> about it. it's -- you mentioned several times about the additional fortifications built that the union was not aware of. one of the new technologies that arrived in the civil war was balloon observations. were there any balloons they might have used to observe what was going on? >> no, there was no balloon use in 1864-65 by the federals or by the confederates, for that matter. pete has a question.

>> so robert e. lee, this is a question. can we hold robert e. lee accountable for the killing of colored troops after he stopped the battle. lee is very near the battlefield. he's right behind the confederate line with general boragaurd. they come out on the field for an unclear amount of time after the battle. it's my estimation that he must have seen some of this killing. they leave their wounded, federal wounded, out there on the battlefield in the hundred plus degree heat.

it's preposterous to leave these people out there bleeding, crying out in agony the bodies are so black from the sun, they're bursting now or so white because maggots are eating their flesh, all of that could have been avoided if the letter that mead did write, he had just immediately sent it over to the confederates. so there's all sort of intricacies, which, if you want to talk about more, we can, of where the letter is going and how we're going to range this flag of troops. it takes a day and a half, almost two days. it's really disgusting. i almost say to those people, these men are not heroes. i guess that's it. thank you. >> you're watching american history tv.

all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. >> next on the civil war, eric leonard of anderson i have national historic site discusses the rise of prison camps. this i vent is about an hour. >> that conference last year, you know, i -- circumstances conspired so that i was a fleeting head on the screen and i'm very pleased this morning to actually be present and projecting images of prisoner of war camps and military prisons on the screen instead of me.