it's because they were forbidden to document the force. there are several in that there are many issues. i contacted jeff miller or representative miller's office and got a phone number of someone that said that they would maintain the confidentiality and investigate. and at this point i would tell them that is a problem above my pay grade. >> i have had several company derrick pulley and i share the testimony with the committee and i read some of the statements in the record and i would say though that i know that our failure with the administrative process either the house i would be more than happy to take the whistleblower complaints to the public. might have grabbed his communications i was able to

navigate quicker than most and that is the key thing. it doesn't take everyone to do the same thing. some people might be comfortable just going through the ig and the sun it covetable going to the representative or senator and some light be comfortable going to the press. but there are different levels. you don't have to go as far as we did. in some cases there is an exception that there are different ways that you can get the information out and different people that want to. there's the civil groups, veterans service organizations that would be more than happy to get the information they have direct connections with other leaders in congress. there are different ways that i would tell you this. you feel better when you say something versus holding it in. >> i have no doubt there are employees listening tonight and seeing the comments and i might add that they are probably out there during all of you down for having the courage to show up.

but step forward and model this other office to carry that water for the brave employee like thet was also the appreciate the commitment. >> if i could make a clarification even though i said i wouldn't recommend getting a job at the va i am not looking for a job elsewhere. they have the culture where it stands today. >> there is no doubt in my mind that you are a veteran committed. >> thank you. you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. to follow up on that statement, i couldn't help but wondering during your testimony and in the answer to the questions that were asked of you as you detailed the ostracism that you were being shunted aside when you made problems for the management ending up in the

position now that you are doing good but it isn't a position that you signed up for and then i know that you clarified it a earlier saying that you would recommend to somebody thinking about working for the va not now, not until we get accountability and oversight protection for the whistleblowers i couldn't help but wonder why you stayed. >> the work is fulfilling and important. i went back to medical school to be a va physician because i felt there was a great need. everyone knows there are limitations. we are a federal department. the veterans are so grateful for the quality of care. you will see such a wide variety of people at the va and from the physician standpoint to interesting. in the geriatrics i have a playing field in fact it was urgent medicine at its best it's interesting and fulfilling. i don't always feel so resilient

as a physician. i am tenacious i get myself gif that but sometimes there is that's not in the center of your stomach when you just don't want to show up because as much as you love the veterans committee administration really wears you down and you begin to doubt your own professional ability. >> and they answer what you said earlier and for everyone on the panel, we keep asking about the culture that is the most important issue but probably the most difficult task before us as a country turning around but you represent a culture that i think we are looking for and that we want to see throughout the system not just that the provider level at the management and the secretary level on through this committee and as a country so i want to thank you for that and for the example that you provided. but i also want to follow up on another commente comment that y.

you mentioned surviving 16 years of this and these problems didn't just occur under this administration i've been here for a year and a half it is a joint hearing in the committee where we heard from the veterans service organizations and i remember the commander coming before us saying i don't know the number was with a 32nd time that i've appeared and have been coming up for decades and i've been saying the same things over and over again. so, you said that this is a system worth saving but my question to you is is it's salvageable? >> you've got thousands of employees that are dedicated to the veterans and the welfare of the veterans. i'm discouraged when i hear people say the va is too big to change. you have an entire group of

people that are ready for the revolution. and they want this. they want a productive healthcare system delivering good care. the horizontal violence has to stop. that was one of the implications of the whistleblower retaliation is that it affects care because you don't speak up to save the problems are because you are afraid of the repercussions. the corollary to that is that you begin to -- it is a pressure cooker and you pick up to each other gossip, bullying, exclusive we kind of see it on each other because we don't know they are under so much pressure and that needs to stop, to. >> you have given us ideas on that but i do wonder how we are going to be able to do that after so many years and so many fundamental systemic problems doctor matthews brings up the issue of not being able to trust the integrity of the data that has become obvious to all of us and i commend your efforts to

measure those things that are important to the patient care and outcomes in the facility that you worked. we've been trying to do that and in el paso we have seen similar rates of the veterans seeking mental health who cannot get an appointment, just give up and stop trying and we can only write now because we don't have the full story wonder at the outcomes. we introduced the ask veterans act which would integrate wyoming's ea to tell us how they are doing that to ask them what you were trying to measure indoor facility. let me just conclude by thanking you all for what you are doing and we hope the recommendations that you gave us might lead to some of the cultural changes that we all know are essential to turning the va around. >> thank you. mr. kaufman you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you all for stepping forward as whistleblowers.

i believe the rank-and-file in the veterans administration are in fact employees that care about serving the needs of the nation's veterans and without whistleblowers such as yourself who have had a courage to step forward, we would never know the problems that exist in the veterans administration because none of those problems have ever been self identified by their leadership in the administration. they have always been aware of them simply by the whistleblowers coming forward and sharing with us the reality of what is occurring on the ground with the veterans health administration. one thing i think when we became aware of the magnitude and the crisis was concerning the patient wait times, and the

fraudulent changes in terms of those records often fueled by the drive for bonuses. that's what you're saying is actually the problem was much deeper than simply patient wait times, that they were also denying people inside the system is that correct? >> they didn't get into collecting the applications that i think this is where we have to look at you can only get the appointment if you are enrolled and so we have systemic problems in the enrollment system and to give you some context you may hear this from the next panel the office that helps build of this center is about to start with a call for command center. this is something that they will assume to be the leadership or perhaps the committee that i want you to understand the change will only come from real solutions at the va. currently this is what i call the gimmicks that go on at the

va. we send about making the public and the leadership on the hill. but i will tell you when you look at this document to the communication train people perform the communication training every day. that isn't anything new. the call-center people perform the call center task. this is not going to change anything. the strategy is to take people on the fifth floor and put them in the second floor. this is what constitutes responding to the veteran concerned that the va. following something that works in the business that is the people sign off on the reports they turn into the congress. i can tell you what disappointing to me as a citizen at a va employee is to watch leader after leader sitting in the chairs and say i don't know. i will get back to you. so and so was supposed to do that. the general council won't let me. that is inefficient and if you are going to be in a leadership position you need to leave for

making people sign off on a quarterly report to say that i own the data that i turn and, i owned the enrollment, you doubt very many people in this room there was a 600,000 pending backlog in the va from the iraq and afghanistan veterans of people would have known that was going to happen if the reports have to be signed off on by people in the positions that were held formerly by the doctor this is where the change comes from another you have to document. one of the problems that we have is the first time that you go to make something public they tell you where is your proof, where is the document? most people will not sign the document. i forget to process the applications but this is the kind of conversation where you ggo in to talk -- >> let me put it this way. if you all could comment on th this. the veterans administration is

so dysfunctional )-right-paren in terms of its leadership and in terms of the culture as well. so having the new secretary come in they are still there. i hope the secretary ca can take the appropriate change but it's going to be difficult. should there be an entity outside of the veterans administration for what they report and let me go down to the rest of the physicians here. >> it is inherited if you really want the new change in the whistleblower environment where people come forward you have to take the policing power outside of the va. >> i agree no one trusts them to handle their own problems that we have reported it to them. >> i agree. if we acknowledge the problem these are expected to fix it. the position is that there is no problem. we have the numbers to prove it.

>> thank you for being here. i realize that we need to go outside the va that is under the point that we have to make the change because of nine of the positions including the secretary are vacant right now so if we can bring in a new leadership team and impress upon them the need for the accountability that we have heard repeated every hearing whether it is on the backlog or bonuses or the whistleblowers this is the message that maybe we are at a point where we can start to make a difference. i'm sorry that mr. mcdonald can't come in here and hear what we are hearing. i know sloan gibson is scheduled to come that we need to get the new secretary and as soon as we can because he needs to hear the kind of thing so that we can move this in a new direction.

we have a new hospital. i met with some of the emergency room doctors at my invitation they were scared to come. they are not as brave as you all are and they want to be sure that they knew that i invited them because they feared retaliation. you travel in small circles. have you had any contact with people at the hospital were for me or any whistleblower proble problems. we have had a significant number of the staff to relocate but i haven't had a whistle blower problem. >> i'm glad to hear that. one of the things i wanted to ask you, you mentioned that the first sponsor to the whistleblower is to try to impugn their integrity. one of the reasons you mentioned is that you often say they are

just a disgruntled employee because you didn't get the bonus that you wanted. can you talk about the nexus between the bonuses and whistleblowing. are people getting paid to be quiet? >> i don't know that people are getting paid to be quiet, but i do think that there is a tendency to try to generate the motive for why someone is coming forward to when the truth and reporting wrongdoing. and it's often associated with somehow personal gains for the whistleblowers but i tell you there is no personal gains of being a whistleblower even as you go through the litigation you ultimately when, you know, there is no financial incentive whatsoever. >> i'm sure of that. i'm thinking of just the opposite you keep people pat down and not speaking up if you give them regular bonuses and it

keeps that culture of silence that you mentioned. >> the bonuses are among the chief of staff and higher-ups. >> doctor mathews or doctor mitchell? >> my experience in the st. louis va have productivity data for every psychiatrist as to the number of patients being seen. and i know that there is only one who perhaps didn't get the full performance based for what could consider to be the bonus and that's me because actually for their own reasons they were correct. you could accomplish what i set out to do but just do what you

want to do it you will not get into trouble for not working. the only reason i think one can get in trouble is by identifying problems and then coming forward. so that has to change. and i think it is a complex issue with the college culture, that the fix can be very simple and demanding the data and holding people accountable. you know, that once that starts to happen and some senior positions, not people that redesigned again, they have high integrity that they re-sign because they have integrity, but the people who don't care, those people need to b be fired be fit it sends a message that this is not -- this cannot be tolerated anymore. so i would say that your right to the people that get the bonuses are the ones that keep quiet and keep doing what they are doing. >> doctor mitchell? >> the difference between the performance bonus, the performance measure though this is what you get if they've got

the performance. most o of us that are eligible e quite frustrated because the facility never ha have the resources to make the performance measures. so there is a bonus just nowhere near where we want to be reworded for the work we do in the proficiency that they are actually how he would perform through the year on our own personal merit and those are subjected. if the administrators like us they can rate as high or low and they don't have to give a reason why. most say quiet not because there is any benefit one way or the other at least at my level. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> as i sit here and listen to your testimony one of the things that comes to my mind is somewhere along the line through

your parents were somewhere, someone taught you about doing the right thing. and about being able to look in the mirror at the end of the day and know that you are doing the right thing and i applaud you for that. and know that you are respected by those that matter. and those that don't have their own issues and i appreciate that. i served in iraq as a doctor, and we have something that you mentioned tonight with a sense of mission. we have a shared sense of mission and everyone was on the same page. in the reserve unit we come from private practice. there is no reason for slacking and the patients were the first priority and you work through the night if you have to. and you take shifts sleeping. wouldn't you love to be able to practice in the environments like that every day?

they've provided for the others that are veterans today. and it is really sad for me to hear that there is a need for an agency with a higher integrity than the va. which was said tonight. that's the people would be willing to accept that they need someone to watch over them because of their lack of integrity and we've brought up the mortality and wha when did e and the peer review. i needs to is you had people from the same specialty reviewing the charts and people that know they are familiar with the procedures that you're talking about and you do that to try to make things better and if someone is feeling that they have to go because the reputation is on the line. it's not fair to be punitive but to make everything better as far as care. so my question as far as whistleblowing is there any chance for the providers and put

such as have too much administrative responsibility we don't get to see the patients, such as i need another clinical assistant in here i need a medical assistance then i can see by times more patients or do you have the opportunity to say so and so is a poor performer in the clinic and it's slowing my time down with my patients and i don't get to see as many. is that available? and i will start with you, doctor mitchell. >> in a particular form is not available. in section four and five i talk about the retaliation tactics against providers and one of them is failing the ancillary service so the providers are stretched thin and there's another they overloaded the patient panels that there is no way that they can link through. we are not at the level to be able to communicate equally with our administration. we are far below. and anyone that speaks out is

retaliated against the don't have the freedom to speak freely and advocate for the patients in ourselves. >> ..

>> yes, by the providers. basically the provider side they that they would no longer practice this in this area and they were responsive to that. so now it is a certain amount of perception. and it also took a lot of experience for the providers for those who as a group spoke up and said this is not right. so i do think that this is appropriate. and i think a lot of times resources are placed in areas where there are too many resources and things. so again, it involves a solution >> very quickly. >> to quickly outcome i was trying to institute a position with what is being provided. so we had those two accurate measures, we can know which

facility we are putting end, 15 hours or whatever, and the answer exists with more resources. and this includes the psychiatrist that i was monitoring and so there is a solution there that has more efficiency and it's not just more resources. it. >> thank you very much. i appreciate it. >> sir, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i am grateful to all of you as well. it's interesting. mr. davis coming you said something i can relate to. but i have been here 18 months as well. a typical pattern of how this investigation is working out to get the health care that we

promised them when they fall for liberty and freedom. so typically a panel comes in and the reference desk. and it tells us unbelievably shocking stories, back to your comment, that are so shocking and disappointing and disappointing to me representing veterans of our district. and there's nothing celebratory about it. and especially we need to commissar mentions a good future. and representative walden alluded to this as well. you will walk out of here there have been dozens of be a panelist are going to get us to answers, either that you are not telling the truth we don't have other questions to answer and

that's going to happen again tonight and if it doesn't happen tonight, i will be shocked. but there are dozens and dozens of high-ranking members and specifically doctor mitchell, this has kind of been in phoenix, the phoenix facility has been part of this reaction time. one of the things that has floored me is the lack of urgency on the part of the va that there is a five alarm fire and no one is rushing to put it out. i'm thinking that if i was in an among the phoenix va, and if i was responsible for any of this stuff from the minute that this hit the fan nationally i would be trying to get us out doubletime and make sure that my facility is the standard and that we have reset the record and we are an example for the rest of the country. in the three months of this has been part of it, the american people so they will not tolerate this and this committee says that we will not tolerate this either.

we will drill this down to where we can provide the best health care of our veterans. but doctor mitchell, have you sent anything in phoenix that says, wow, what a turnaround? people have been fired, there's a ton of accountability and the people demanding accountability. have you seen that in phoenix in a. >> the turnaround that i have seen has to do with scheduling. because the backlogs have been reduced. i put in a consult and we got a phone call during my appointment and they have certainly done tremendous work in the veterans process. but the problem is they only fix the problem in the media and they haven't fixed the patient care problem although they are certainly working on that in the psychiatry department. so there are administrators they are the refused addresses that was directly impeding care for

those patients in the emergency room and there was a meeting or five or six full-time positions we're part of the chain of command and he said flat out that we will not investigate this against doctor mitchell. >> we had the inspector general here a couple of weeks ago who said that the issue of ruling out corruption is not going to stopcoming it is still actively going on in your corroborating that's actually going on against you. until somebody does a prison and people are fired and that there's actual tangible action being taken and that includes the veterans for health care and in third, your colleagues that you work with as well feel like your backs are covered. how long do you see if it took a national urgency, but it took a resilience on the part of the chairmen chairman and the ranking member actually go after this issue to try to reset it. even if we keep pressure up, even if a new secretary comes in, if we don't root out the

corruption, how long do you see that it will take to turn this around if we keep up the same amount of pressure? >> i am not sure i'm in the best position to judge that. but the media paid attention to the scheduling issues and i think all of a sudden that that is completed within 10 minutes. they need to pay attention to the lack of ethics. >> absolutely. >> i would like to say that i think that we have to do two things. we do need a separate group and one a new secretary comes in, he or she will have to deal with the health care issue first. it will probably not have time to become the chief of police for the va and make the health care reforms. so you're going to need some assistance with this operating authority only acting for a period of years until you get the va under control. so the next thing we have to

look at his performance standard for leadership. unlike those who work at medical facilities, they may have some legitimate researchers for their challenges. and our in our organization, the primary function is to enroll the veterans and health care and that is not just about the politics of the law but the va having a public affairs division here and a national veteran outreach here and it helps us with the communication outfit and that was sent down to atlanta for the sole purpose of a senior executive at a performance goal and had nothing to do with anything else. so what you need this agency to look at us? we have 600,000 and that rivals the number of people who roll in the va in a given year. so imagine a years worth of applications sitting in a pending status.

put this in context of talking about a bank. 600,000 deposits go in on monday and we never hear about them for another year or two. so do you think the walls of the bank would still be standing here today? and yet the men and women who sacrificed his country have to deal with us. and not because we don't have the resources. the focus on the insurance program and marketing materials for delta dental and metlife, yet we need to let people know if you had a pending application in these years, contact these numbers. the same that we put in getting the bonuses would attaching ourselves to a high-profile projects. so the same tension into the veterans. so if nothing else, make sure that we move to a system that has more data integrity and this

includes the people that sit on these panels to sign off on information that they turn into congress. this way when they come back they cannot say that the report was done by someone else. that is the only way, to hold them accountable and do it in public and do it when the cameras are on. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> sir, you are recognized for five minutes thank you, mr. chairman. doctor, what is the relationship between ucla and the l.a. va hospital? >> like many of our institutions we have an affiliation agreement and a institution and a member of them have joint appointments with both of these within the university and also with the va. so i ask because this is a very egregious case and i shared my

colleagues comments and it was a case ultimately against ucla board of regents. >> that is correct. >> so the settlement was with this and not with the va? >> well, it is a complicated case in with my case we both satisfactorily agreed to part ways. but if you have noticed, there is tremendous overlap in a federal component two. >> so here is my question. trying to distinguish this. the incident he referred to was the june 2006 party of one of these parties. so was it strictly ucla party? or was it also the va institutional involved in our? >> at a particular party of

there were a number of members who were employed as physicians at the va. a component of that was directly related to that investigation occurred at the va. >> the facts of the case led to a settlement with the board of regents in california, do they also support a claim against the va and is it a habit you from filing some kind of legal action against the va? or was it specific ucla and not the va? >> i cannot comment on the state component of this. >> here is my question. because it is a significant case. the facts solely lead you to litigation against ucla and at what is the prohibits somebody in your position from seeking redress from the va?

>> it allows me to seek this from the va and there is a federal component. >> but your settlement is on the stateside? >> yes. >> are you familiar with this program? >> it's something that i have seen and has been highlighted by my local va hospital is a program that every bacs from the cost of meals staff to others, if they see something that interferes with the delivery of patient care at any level, it is an imagery, if you will, that any employee has the ability to stop operations immediately out of concern for something they might see. it has been adopted in a number of facilities and none of you are aware of this?

remapped i certainly am not. [laughter] >> i will be honest with you. it was promoted to me as an effort by the va to encourage every employee to step up and say that there is a problem. but each of you have already supported a whistle blower capacity and yet have no knowledge of the program that says perhaps that is not as promoted as internally as somewhat just say has been. >> i would say during this long process, i find that very distinguished. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> thank you, members. i like to go head to the next panel, unless someone has a burning question that they would like to ask. thank you very much the witnesses. we do all appreciate the courage it took to come here tonight.

we will be watching and rest assured if any of you contact us, we will all jump to protect you from any fu screeria -- nig-

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- on december 12, 1972, former president lyndon johnson spoke at a civil rights symposium at his museum in austin, texas in what was his final speech, l.b.j. talked about the future of civil rights and the role of government in ensuring equality for all citizens. this program is about 30 minutes. >> mr. middleton, esteemed former chief justice and all of you wonderful people who have