this. and henry looked at it and laughed and henry loved that stuff. >> well, nixon was probably a little jealous that henry could be photographed with starlets around the world? >> yes. we had those conversations too. >> i read that some of these vindictive or desires for revenge came out when the president was drinking? um-hum? >> was it that he couldn't hold his liquor? >> again, the complicated per n personality. i don't want to say he couldn't hold his liquor, there were times when i thought nixon came close to going too far with his wine at dinner, and sometimes his scorch. he could pretty well control it,

he could have a drink or two before dinner and always a bottle of wine, vintage wine, very good wine that he would save for himself and the other people at the table would be left with the drinks. i thought he went too far. there was never a time when i was with him was he not in complete control of his faculties. he was never dangerous. there were two or three phone calls, i suspect have been listened to when i thought he was over the edge. april 30th when he fired haldeman. he sure sounded it. one night he called me. i was up sitting with my dad, he was sick and he had just come back from russia. my dad had had a heart attack, i was in massachusetts, i get a

call from the president at 2:00 in the morning. and he is incoherent. i couldn't make head nor tail out of what he was saying. he would say something and then slur off. i went to a neighbor's house, and i said, i have to make a phone call and don't ask any questions. it's 2:00 in the morning. but i need to get a telephone, so i could get disconnected from nixon and call the white house switchboard. i called the switchboard. i said something's happened to the president. he's on the phone but i think he's passed out. he called me back 20 minutes later and said he's fine he's asleep. the president called me and said he was on heavy doses of

sleeping pills, the jet lag got to him, and it may well be. there were times he would equal me in the middle of the night, i hope i'm not bothering you, is it all right to talk? he would sleep two hours and then wake up and do some work, and he would call me. he did not sound like he had been drinking, but he wasn't as clear witted as he normally was. the times he would get up in the night, he couldn't sleep, and so i recognized the phone call was just handling. >> these are the times when you would not do what he asked you to? >> oh, yeah. >> you said there were a hundred things he asked you to do that you didn't? >> yes. there were times i knew couldn't and shouldn't. >> let's -- you're a complicated

person, how did you know or didn't know? >> if i sensed it was one of those middle of the night deals where he was just ranting, i would let him rant and listen and agree with him. he wanted me to fire all the people at bureau of labor statistics one night, he called me. i called george shultz i said he wants to fire the head of the bureau of labor statistics. schultz said don't do anything until i come back. he flew back and spoke directly with the president. there were many times when i did not do what he said and got the person involved who should do it. there were a lot of things he would ask you to do you knew you couldn't do. >> you say he didn't know how to

unwined? >> i remember one time after -- i guess it was after the teamsters endorsed nixon, which i arranged in '72. i went up there to be there for the teamster meeting i was there when they made the decision to endorse him. that next morning he was exuberant. and he says, let's go for a ride, and we'd go outside into the golf cart, which he then drives. i was never more nervous in my life, he's driving up and down the roads and he's not a good driving and he's not paying any attention, we're in a golf cart. but it was his way of celebrating. it was as far as i saw nixon go to take the time out to celebrate something. another time in san clemente i

was there for zinner, we go into the upstairs library that looks out over the pacific. he said, this is where we talked about -- went through the entire conversation with bresnov. i found it kind of interesting, i suppose but i could have engaged in more stimulating conversation, than to relive a negotiation that took place in this room. but nixon was so totally focused, i don't think he knew how to wind down. which is why you would get those middle of the night calls which is why he was so intense about everything he did. he didn't know how to cool it. >> recount for us the episode after george wallace had been shot. >> we were absolutely panicked that bremmer would have turned

out to have been an ailing lie of some right wing group or somehow some crazy involve with us. i figured any connection with us, the president would be impeached on the spot. he called me in his office. this will be on the tapes, i suppose jokingly said, well, you should have finished the job. he said, this is bad if any of our people have anything to do with this, it would be great if it came from the left. so he said, what can we find out about it? i sat down at the table in the executive office and called mark felt at the fbi and said, mark, tell me what you can -- this is probably 5:30 at night, it's been three hours since the shooting. they had his apartment cordoned

off. they're following a series of phone conversations with mark, in which the president was sitting pantomime telling me what to say. whispering loudly, i'm sure mark must have heard it, and relaying all these instructions. find out if there's any literature inside? is there any political literature inside? i said, well, call me back when you find out anything. meanwhile, the president said to me, how about -- this was howard hundred the. how about your friend the cia guy? could we get him to go out there and see what's going on? maybe plan the some literature? i said i'll call him. i went back to my office and said, could you do anything? could you find out anything? it's probably too late. and hunt's response is, i'm sure they have the place sealed off,

i can't get inside. unless you can get me inside. i told the president that, and we kept waiting for the next three hours for reports which came directly to me in the president's office or me in my office and i would call the president. of course, he had been stalking nixon. so there was no political gain or loss except wallace being on the sidelines was help to us. >> nixon was pantomiming in your office? >> his office, sitting there making gestures, i'm trying to read his lips while i'm talking to mark. >> this is what i find -- i cannot understand about the watergate period, i see no evidence that he sat with you at any point and said, what was hunt doing? he knew what hunt was doing.

>> go back to the thing about brookings, he says, i've been telling you i want someone in here who can do -- he's got black bag jobs. someone who can do what the fbi used to do. i thought about that later, and said, mr. president you can't do that. i regret i didn't, but i didn't. i always thought he knew what was going on. i was sure he had approved it, because of that conversation on saturday in the oval office. >> so, i always thought he must have gotten the okay. it turns out he didn't. but i always thought he would have. >> but in the summer -- let's say after the election in '72, i'm surprised nixon didn't have a conversation with you about hunt and what do do about --

>> we did have one, we had two or three in january. >> he knew i was involved. but everyone knew i was involved. the question was amnesty. and this is an interesting story. i felt badly that he got pulled into that. he lost his wife. and i felt responsible. i didn't know we were paying him money, until he called me and told me so. i was never in any of the meetings, the cover upmeetings. if you go back and look at the attendance, i wasn't at them. so you're right i was being set up. hunt's lawyer came in to see me in january. i agreed to see him because hunt asked me top i was appalled by

his approach. i cut him off. i said if you talk to me this way, i cannot help you. if you just be quiet, i'll tell you what i want to do. as a friend, not to keep anyone quiet, just as a friend, he should not go to prison because he was being told to do what he did by the white house. if he did go to prison i would ask for amnesty, a pardon, some relief. you have my personal assurance on that, that's not to hush you up. but it's only because he's a friend and i brought him in here, i feel responsible. and i didn't -- no, i didn't know he was testifying. he had said plenty on his tape that signaled to me that he was volatile and now blackmailing us, letting us know we better take care of him.

i never did talk to the president, however walking between the west wing and the eob one night and -- there were three of us it might have been ken kroll or ben krok. i turned to one of them and said, i'm going to be leaving here. if you guys allow hunt to go to prison, get convicted and take the rap for this, i'm going to come back and talk to the president. i'm going to tell the president. before i leave, i want to tell the president, i'm sure he pardons him, before i leave this white house. enhe didn't say a word to me.

i never did it, i did it so ehrlich would think i was doing it. later he said that i had done it and the president went into a frenzy, that was december when he called me over to the white house. he's sitting up in the lincoln sitting room with all the tapes out. he says, did i promise clemency for hunt? i said no. are you sure? did i have a conversation with you in which i promised? no. you may remember, this was one of the charges in watergate, but it didn't happen, because i didn't ask him. i told ehrlich because i wanted to be able to come back and have him help me. i wanted to keep my leverage. i said something that wasn't true.

the president and i did talk about these things, we talked about liddy, hunt, and in one conversation which is, i'm sure on the tapes i said that -- the president said get here into the white house. you've heard the tape? >> i think it's in january. i said, yes he said, haldeman and ehrlich? i said yes. at that point i had figured it out well. and then you can listen to the tape february 14th, you've got to get who was responsible for this, and get them out of here. i also told him in my conversation in march he should get a special council and investigate it open ly. at that point i really did

realize he was in deep danger. >> you must -- you knew how the haldeman system worked. did you think it was possible that $300 million could go to someone to undertake an intelligence operation without haldeman knowing? >> no, i didn't have any question that he aproved what would be going on. i didn't think anyone was stupid enough to break into the democratic national committee. and i didn't think he would have approved that. >> you thought he approved general surveillance? >> yes. >> why weren't you -- >> unless it was the rivalry with mitchell and gruder. i -- it would have been perfectly logical, there was a

meeting every week in the president's office, sort of the brain trust of the campaign, mitchell and then the fella who came in to replace mitchell. >> clark mcgregor. john conley, me, haldeman. and this was over a strategy session. the intelligence issue never came up once. and i was not part of the staff discussions or the staff process of proving it. the only time i heard about it was when hunt brought liddy into the office. i have attributed that to the fact that mitchell and i did not get along. >> do you think the president knew you were being set up to take the fall for watergate? >> yeah, i do. i hate to say that, because i

would like to think that he had as much affection for me as i had for him. but i think he knew it. i think he had to know it. >> how do you explain that since you described how close you were. >> i don't agree with darwin, but that was survival of the fittist. if the president of the united states is thinking how he's going to save himself, anyone's expendable. that's not the way i would see it, but i think that's the way he saw it. >> could you tell us the story, and you said you tell it in your book about asking -- you're in prison and you're with a group of your former colleagues and you ask mcgruder what happened. tell us how that happened? >> dean and i were conversing in

my room, testimony was going on gruder had been brought there to testify in the trials. the three of us were there dean and i were talking and i said to john, i said, we're all in prison because of watergate. why do you think we broke into the democratic national committee? he said, i don't know i said you didn't approve it? he said, no. i said, i never heard of it. he said, well, the guy that said yes is mcgruder. we go down the hall and get mcgruder, he sits on the bed and we start idle chatter. we're all in prison it's all over, we're paying or price for this. why did we get into this thing, why did we approve watergate in the first place? why did we decide to go in there for intelligence?

what did we want to find. he got red in the face, nervous, agitated and walked out, he never answered us. we just shook our heads, because he was the guy who gave it the green light. later he said the president told him to, that's ridiculous. i don't believe it for a minute. >> you don't believe it? >> no. >> what about mitchell? >> mitchell did. the president always protected mitchell, he had too protect mitchell? >> why? >> because he felt about mitchell the way i did about hunt, only more so. john mitchell didn't want to come here, his wife's an alcoholic, i could never do anything to hurt mitchell. i think there he really felt a special loyalty that would have been different than with me, i was a young guy on the career latter moving up. here's an older man with a half

a million dollar a year law practice in new york. nixon talks him to coming down, his wife embarrasses him, he ends up disgraced. >> where were you the day nixon resigned? >> in prison. >> how did you feel? >> well, i was relieved that it was over disappointed because i would have thought he would have taken his own troops with him if he was going to resign. pardon us or commute the sentences. hopeful that jerry ford would do that sad for nixon personally. i really felt empathetic, i knew what an incredibly difficult thing that was for him to do.

just to stand there and look at people and -- in shame, how hard that would be for a man that proud. >> did he ever talk to you about a pardon for you? >> no. >> did you see him afterwards? >> oh, yeah. the first week i was home from prison, i got a call for him. i had said something negative about kissinger on television. and nixon calls me and it's like old times, we're just chatting away. and he got one secretary of state. we got to support him. i said, you didn't like what i said on television? i think we should let henry -- he was nicely telling me to lay off of henry, i'm sure henry called him it got us into a good

conversation. and he said, you're not going to go into this religious business, are you? if you want some help, i know people that would love to hire you. i said, no, no. sometime i'll come out to see you if you'll let me, maybe a sunday morning. and i don't know what i'm going to do yet. i did go out and spend three hours with him on a sunday morning. deliberately i told him i was coming out, he liked sunday morning worship services in the white house, he wouldn't go to church in san clemente but i went there and performed a church service. i never got to talk about what i

wanted to faulk about. he talked about watergate. he said, what did you go to prison for? i said disseminating information. he said, i told you to do that. >> i go to prison for the guy, doing what he said, spend seven months in prison and he doesn't know why i'm there. he wasn't himself there, he was really shocked after he left office. i saw him again a few more times, not in san clementi, but when he came to new york, saw him get back on his feet, and always had a good relationship with him, and he was always very friendly to me. i never spent much time with him after maybe the first three or four years. i was in new york for something. and i called him and he said, come on over. so we spent an evening together.

and that was maybe the early '80s, i didn't see him much from then until -- yeah, talked to him a few times. >> did you feel -- were you -- when bud went back to see the president after he served his time. he felt he should apologize to nixon? he felt he had done something that had hurt nixon? my sense listening to you, is that you didn't -- you felt the blame could be shared? >> i didn't apologize to him, i was doing what he told me to do and i didn't really think i was involved in watergate, and i had given him -- the assistant prosecutor told me i was the one who had done this, i gave him the right advice. >> technically i left the

conspiracy when i did that, it didn't matter i had already pled guilty. i realize if he had taken my advice he would still be president. i didn't feel like i owed him an apology now. >> did he disappoint you? >> sure, of course. but i also understood the man. families disappoint one another sometimes, but you're still family. >> thanks for spending time with us. >> thank you, i enjoyed it. friday night on c-span, this year's western conservative summit including remarks by senator tim scott, faith and freedom coalition founder ralph reid and sarah palin, it gets underway at 8:00 eastern time on c-sp c-span. >> with live coverage of the u.s. house on c-span and the senate on c-span 2, here on c-span 3, we show you the most

relevant public affairs events. on weekends c-span 3 is the home to american history tv. with programs that tell our nation's story, the civil war's 150th anniversary, visiting battlefields and key events. american artifacts, touring museums and historic sites to reveal america's past. the presidency, looking at the policies and legacies of our commander in chief. lectures in history, with top college professors delving into america's past. our new series, educational films from the 1930s through the '70s. c-span 3, created by the cable tv industry and funded by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us on hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >> now, more on richard nixon's presidency with dwight chapin.

in this oral history interview, he discusses the 1972 presidential campaign and the watergate scandal that followed. this is just over an hour. >> the dirty tricks business pl play? >> right, right. very good. dick tuck was a prankster who had done tricks on republican candidates over the years. tricks being crazy little things, nothing harmful. one day the buzzer goes off, i go into the president's office, and he's sitting there with haldeman. they say -- bob says it, do you know anyone that can do dick tuck type stuff, we should have somebody like that? i said, well, let me think about, so i'm -- i went out and thought about it, and i thought

of don. he had been a roommate at usc, he was just leaving the judge advocate's position in the military -- in the army. and i thought, don, okay. he's very anonymous, we'd fit in and can do this kind of thing, i talked with don and he was interested in doing it, i arranged through herb for him to be paid. and i put it in motion with very little guidance because i was incredibly blizdy, and had all kinds of obligations and don marched off. i gave him some direction. for the life of me, i can't remember specifically what direction. the one thing that saved my hide in one sense, is that when don

went to a grand jury, and they asked him about his activities, he said when dwight hired me, one of the reasons i hired you is because you're a lawyer, and you'll know what's right and what's wrong. when he said that, it made it impossible for them to later indict me for anything he had done. don remembers me saying that. i don't remember that statement, he says that's what i said. what happened was, that he went out and did all of these prans,s some of which crossed a line and were not tolerable, in our political system should not have been done. the classic being a very negative piece on sherry chisolm who was a black congresswoman from new york and he made ethnic

slurs and so forth in this document. but i -- and he would send me copies of things but many times i wouldn't even open this stuff. it piled up at our house but i wouldn't even get into it, because i just didn't have the time. and that was my downfall. maybe i would have redirected it. it's so many years later it's hard to remember the specifics of p it i was indicted for making false statements to a grand jury. not for any of his actions, but when they asked me about the shirley chisolm document and whether i -- i said i don't recall this, and i was indicted for some counts of not recalling and not being specific.

the prosecutor's translation of that was, that i was misleading and making false statements and they proved that in court by having the document and saying to a jury, how could anybody not remember this? and, of course, had i seen it or had i really focused on it, there was no way not to remember it, but i didn't remember it, so i got convicted by the grand jury, and i appealed all the way to the supreme court, they wouldn't hear my case, so i went to lompoke for nine months. >> he did all this without any -- he was not getting any instructions? >> no, no, i -- i talked to him on the phone periodically, we met a few times, i gave him some ideas, i aimed him at muskee.

i aimed him at -- who else would it have been at that year? humphr humphrey. but not -- he went and innovated and did whatever he did, i didn't get into the nitty-gritty of the execution of how this stuff worked. >> did haldeman explain to you why the president wanted this done? >> i never questioned this, to me, dick tuck had always been, this had been part of what i had grown up with. so their request to have a dick tuck type guy was not insane of an idea. you mean to tell me, the president of the united states is sitting in his office with his chief of staff, you're coming in there, and they're talking about dirty tricks stuff, and there's a war, and why aren't they running the war

and there's these dirty tricks stuff? can't answer that. we had all been in campaigns, nixon had this rinky dink crap pulled on him. i don't know what made them him to buzz me in there. but they did. it's not a good excuse, but that's what i did. >> they didn't do it in '68. did anyone do this? >> i have no idea. i wasn't asked to find a dick duck. i have been around a while, and so they may have asked someone else to do it in '68, i don't know. >> it had had to be paid for by somebody, and herb was a person who was involved on the money side of things and i'm not

sure -- i'm not sure why i called herb, it may have been bob said, you know, get in touch with herb, i don't. but herb is the one but herb is the one i called. herb is the one i turned it over to. >> was this before the committee to re-elect the president was established? >> well, what year was -- well, what time frame was that established? i don't know when this happened with them asking me, but it seems to me that would have been in the pre-china trip stuff. so this would be either late '71 or the first part of '72. wen segretti is hired. and creep was created in '72 early probably. so probably very simultaneous. >> i'm surprised they didn't ask creep to do this.

>> well, if they had asked creep to do this, it would have been much worse than asking me. creep's reputation -- >> why did you think of segretti? >> i trusted don and i knew him from my usc days. and i knew that he would be -- i thought he would be good at this. >> was he a prankster? >> no. he was smart and clever and he would be good. >> i mean, you mentioned this letter but letters to the candidate would also involve -- >> we'd call and order 500 pizzas to be delivered for the so and so rally for the food. he would have things under the door of traveling parties saying having your bags out at 6:00 in the morning, and they weren't supposed to be out until 10:00 in the morning or something. it would be just crazy stuff.

it's so inconsequential. the ramifications of what happened aren't, but the impact of it was zero. >> how did segretti's name get to the press? >> my understanding is that woodward and bernstein were the ones that came across him in october of 1972. looking into some stuff, they found this name segretti, or a credit card receipt or whatever, and they just started working their way through it and exposed him. >> let's talk about the watergate break-in. did you know anything about those operations? >> no. i want to tell you something that i think is historically very important.

and that is the weekend of the watergate break-in, it happened on a saturday night. right? okay. there was a guy gerard smith, the arms control negotiator, his daughter sheila was having her 30th birthday party oiver on th eastern shore. and we were there for her party. and my good friend, henry cashin who worked for chuck collison and our wives, we drove back to this inn where we were staying. there was a message to call haldeman urgently. this is like 1:30, 2:00 in the morning. so i called bob. he says, do you know anything about any plan to do something

to the democratic committee over at the watergate? i said, i have no idea what you're talking about. he said, you haven't heard anything about this? nothing? i said, no, sir, i have not one thing. he said, okay. good night. that was the end of it. my point is that bob knew -- he was trying to find out what was going on. the night right after this had happened or whenever -- i may be a little off on whether it was 2:00 in the morning or 2:30 in the morning. i'm sure the white house log will show it because i called through the switchboard. but he's trying to figure out what happened. in terms of any preknowledge of any kind on his part, there was none. i'm convinced of it because of that story. >> to what extent did you pick

up the reaction of haldeman and the president in the days that followed? >> i didn't. it was not even on my radar screen. we were off and running on whatever we were working on. it was so confined right there with them and not affecting me whatsoever. i just didn't know. >> when does it get on to your radar screen? >> well, as it -- i don't know the -- i mean, i am making this up. i mean, i don't know when it got an my radar. >> but you do know there's a problem when segretti's name gets brought up. >> the name of the game wasn't to get to dwight chapin. the name of the game was to get to richard nixon. and i'm just a pawn in the process. part of a battery ram to get into the white house.

we made a very, very bad decision in hiring don segretti to do tricks on democratic contenders. it's wrong. and absolutely should not have been done. it was done. it became, among other things, a way to undermine confidence in the white house and to create this suspicion of bigger fish to be fried. >> you said you were too busy to know it was wrong? >> no. >> during this period when -- >> i didn't focus on it. i had no idea. i didn't say, dwight, is this right or wrong? one of the most interesting things that happened to me a few years later is i went down to texas to see some friends of mine. this pal said you have to meet this guy.

his name was roger staubach. he was a quarterback at the naval academy. he said, dwight, we're at the naval academy at the time you're going through all this. and he said, i'm trying to figure out what i would do if the president of the united states called me in and gave me an instruction. would i do it or not do it? in retrospect now i would say, mr. president, i don't think it's a good idea to hire somebody to do the dirty tricks. that's common sense right now. at that moment in time, it didn't even -- god only knows. they buzzed me in. i don't even remember what i was doing before the buzzer went off. does it make it right? no. but i did what i did. >> did the president say anything? when haldeman spoke to you and asked you to do this? >> dick tuck-type stuff. he mumbled stuff.

you've been listening to tapes. we need to have somebody to do this kind of stuff. i don't remember what he said. but he was there. he participated in the conversation. he heard it clearly and nodded. or whatever he did. shlths ag shlths. >> again, you were busy afterwards, but did haldeman check up on this? >> haldeman was clueless as to anything don did. >> did anybody ask? >> no. the guy is off. he's a launched missile. he's out there. nobody knows. >> it's a hard thing for people to understand. you have a very well oiled machine. >> right. yeah. >> everything is no surprises. >> right. >> try to explain where that fits into this. >> that's a very good question. it doesn't. it completely goes against the grain of our operation. i guess it was incumbent upon me

if don digressed and got into an area he shouldn't be in to have reined him back and kept him within some boundaries. those boundaries weren't set. if they were set, it was my comment to him where he says i said, dwight said do what's right and wrong. you'll know the difference. i really didn't spend time on it. it sounds foolish and dumb, and it was, but i didn't. >> what were you doing during the campaign? i mean, with most of your time. you come back from china. >> oh, my god -- i'm involved in all of the scheduling for the president, the vice president. all the surrogates were meeting constantly. meeting with creep. we have the convention coming up.

i was on the group with peter daley that put together the advertising and all of that. we attended all those meetings. i mean, i'm in charge of the television office. i'm running -- i'm into my world of campaigning. and not into my world of what is segretti doing. it's not a priority. >> who comes up with the idea that nixon is the one? >> i don't remember. >> when were you sure that the president was going to be re-elected? >> as the campaign moved along, probably in the democratic convention. the democratic convention would have been one of the keys. >>. [ inaudible question ]

>> when was i sure? when was i sure the president was going to be re-elected? the democratic convention would have been a key point. >> let's talk about election day. you went on vacation after the election? >> i did. i did. the election -- i'm going to run through this whole process. there's some interesting things here, i think. the election was held. the next morning, we had a meeting in the roosevelt room where bob haldeman and the president came in and thanks everybody and so forth. he left. bob haldeman asked for everybody's resignations. really famous meeting.

i was really -- i didn't think this was appropriate. i thought it was very so demotivating to everybody. so we wrote our resignations. i left a couple days later for ireland for three weeks. that's a long time to be gone from the white house. we went with two other couples. i came back. the plane landed at andrews in the afternoon. the men came back on military plane. the women came back commercial. went to the white house. walked in. it was a sunday. i was going to look through my mail. the phone rings. it's john dean. john says, how was your trip to ireland? i said fine.

keep in mind, i didn't call anybody. he's tracking me. he knew exactly when the car delivered me to the white house. he said, can i come by and see you in the morning? i said, yes. so he came by the next morning and he said, have you given any thought to what you're going to do next? and i said, john, what in the world are you trying to tell me? he said, i think you need to figure out what you're going to do next. i said, does bob know this? and he said, bob asked me to talk to you. i could not believe it. i went over to richard moore's office. unbeknownst to me until the haldeman diaries came out, moore knew all this, but he acted like he didn't. so i go to this older mentor

richard moore and said, what is going on here? he says, i don't know. i went back to my office and called haldeman. he was at camp david. i said bob, do you want to talk to me? he says, i think we need to talk. he says, can you come up tomorrow? now, i have to wait until the next day. i mean, this is -- i'm shook to my core, and i have to wait 24 hours. so the next day i get on a helicopter with gerry ford, which i thought was kind of interesting. flew up to camp david. and bob met me. we went over to one of the cabins and talked, and we were both crying. he was crying. and he said that it looked like i was going to be a political problem to the president because of all this segretti stuff. colson was a problem because of some of this stuff and this guy sam irvin may hold some hearings. and, therefore, it's probably better for your career and

everything else if you move on. it was just horrible. there's nothing to describe how i felt. so i sucked it up. i said, yes, sir. went into the men's room to get myself kind of straightened up, and there is the attorney general of the united states balling like a baby. he had just met with ehrlichman. i was thinking this is surreal. i can't believe this. so i went on the helicopter and went back and started figuring out my life, where i was going to go. i went on to united airlines, but it was a very tough time. i was very fortunate that the men that they took and cut the losses and let me go, although in retrospect, there were a lot of other people that should have gone before me in my opinion. but the one thing it allowed was for me to get away from washington and out to chicago

and out of that environment for basically my own good and my family's good. >> before we get to you leaving washington, i want to follow up on some things. did you have any warning when the material got into the "washington post"? >> none. it ran -- pardon me, i did have a warning. yes, i knew it was coming. they had called ziegler or something for a statement. i did have a warning. i went that saturday night, susie and i went to dick moore's house. i talked it over with dick moore. we got the early edition of "the washington post." it came out around 11:30 on saturday evening. we read the story. it was on the front page. right-hand column story.

then we went home and then the next day, we left our house very early in the morning. we went back to the moores. and dick and i went into the white house and met with ehrlichman and ziegler. i think john dean was there. i'm not certain. and tried to figure out how we were going to manage this and how we were going to handle it. we wrote out some statements. then sunday night, we went back to the moores house, had dinner. i'm telling this for a reason. why -- we went home, drove in our driveway and i hear this, dwight, dwight. this guy comes out from behind a tree. i had known him for years through the campaign. it was bob simple of "the new york times" hiding in my front yard.

i said, they send a friend here to do this? and he said, i'm so embarrassed. and he said, i just hate being here. but that's how it all got started. >> did segretti call you? >> i don't remember. i don't think so. i talked to him. he's right there. he may remember. i don't remember. i mean, i was too focused on me. >> what was the game plan for you? >> it depends on where you're talking. we have the story, which i want to say was like october 19th or 20th. somewhere in that range. we're coming right up on an election. it's going to get really hyped coming into this if it can do any damage.

there's that period up until when we wrote out our resignations. then i go over to ireland. then i come back and i'm off. >> let's talk about october. >> it was just survival. it's hanging out there. every day there are questions on it. to ziegler. i basically went incognito. we'd go into the white house, go to my office, leave, and go home. we didn't go anywhere publically. my habit was always to walk the ellipse every day at noon. i would see press. i quit doing all that. i just remember withdrawing. people started looking at you suspiciously. i now am older and wiser and

i know when these kinds of things happen in washington, one should know that's getting close to curtains. i didn't even think of it that way. i thought, well, we'll get through this. of course, you have to keep in mind i knew nothing about the watergate stuff. i was never called to a watergate grand jury. i was called to a grand jury on my thing, but nothing to do with the main thing or anything ever. so all that was happening, and i was clueless. clueless. >> when you were fired, that meeting in the roosevelt room. >> the meeting when i went to camp david? what meeting? >> the day after the election. >> the day after the election was -- no. that's when we wrote out our resignations. camp david is when he said, i think you need to be going on. >> that's after? >> that's after the trip to ireland. >> when you handed in your

resignation, you didn't really expect it? >> furthest thing from my mind. >> did you talk to haldeman about that episode? >> no. well, i told him how dumb i thought it was at some point. fred mallick and larry higby. i don't know who came up with this crazy ass thing but it was one of the stupidest things ever done, in my opinion. plenty of people agree with me. >> you go away to ireland not thinking your job is in jeopardy? >> no. >> the segretti thing, has it gone away? >> no. what happened was while i was in ireland, john dean went and met with segretti and debriefed him. came back and reported to haldeman and dick moore and they start realizing that this guy is out there running around. maybe they found out that i had

absolutely no control over him and i was a dereliction of duty. i don't know. but in any case, they came to the conclusion that one of the things to do was to take chapin out of the mix coming into this new administration to try to head off sam irvin doing some hearings. in retrospect, they were focused on the wrong guy. i probably should have gone because of what i did. but it seems to me, now what we know, there was much more severe things that needed to be addressed. >> there's a grand jury. did john dean talk to you before you went into the grand jury? >> that's the eddie carlson part of the story where i mentioned that john dean was my attorney. the guy was running united

airlines said, not anymore. we're going to get you a lawyer. he was smart enough to know this was not right. >> what was john dean telling you? >> he was telling me that things would work out. he was keeping abreast of what was going on with me. trying to keep track of where i was and what were my feelings. it's a very typical type thing when somebody is under the gun to say what's their temperament? what's going on here? is dwight off talking to the prosecutors? what's going on here? the picture is so much more complex. i think john is being a nice guy. he's in touch with me and so forth. when -- oh, i've left this out and it's probably very important. when the story appeared in the

paper on that sunday, then monday or tuesday, the fbi came to the white house. they met with me in john dean's office. john left and didn't stay in the room. he had fred fielding stay in the room. fred is current white house counsel. great guy. so fred is in the room with me. and the fbi agents, young guys, are asking me these questions. i answer everything truthfully. that's how i was raised. i told them everything. everything that i could possibly think of on this thing. they leave. the next day, it is on the front page of "the washington post." they come back for follow-up questions, the fbi agents. the first thing they do is start off and apologize to me for that being on the front page of the

paper and say they have no idea how it happened. now we know through mark felt. they went back there, and however, that information was disseminated within the fbi headquarters, he got some of it and gave it to reporters. they were furious. and, of course, i was just madder than hell. i spilled everything to them. i told everything i could possibly think of on this thing. i thought that was the answer was to be forthcoming. and it all ends up on the front page of the paper. >> when was the last time you saw the president before you went before the grand jury? >> probably it would have been

in april of 1973. so i was working at the white house. i left the end of april and went to united airlines. it had to have been in that timeframe. >> what did he say? >> after i went to prison, i took my daughters to san clemente with my wife and it was kind of awkward but he told the girls that their dad had done a good job for him and i had done important things for the country. but he's not acclimated. i've been with him so many times under these conditions where we're dealing with people have come in and something has happened to them or their family. this is not his strong suit.

so i always felt -- i know he felt bad about things. i know haldeman as well. she told me how upset bob was from that camp david meeting with me. and i had never known this until about six months ago that he had really fell apart. he was just devastated that we had to -- that this happened the way it did. and i had never known that. >> you went to work for united in early '73. >> yes. >> met with the grand jury while you were there. >> right. >> and then the trial. >> yes. >> tell us about the trial. >> it started on april 1st. jake stein, my lawyer, who was monica lewinsky's lawyer, jake said white will be over on

friday because a washington jury doesn't want to come back on monday. and 5:00 friday night it was over. it was -- my judge was judge gearhart gazelle, a liberal democrat. johnson appointee. and he did not like me. i looked different back then. i was a young man. not too bad looking. dressed nicely. was probably on the cocky side, because that was my defense mechanism or something. i don't know. i don't know what i could have done differently. but there was no way of connecting with that jury. and jake had told me from the outset that our case probably

would be won upon appeal. that i shouldn't expect from the conviction thing. we had a washington jury. we had nixon. the chemistry was just not right on this. the only thing that was really kind of startling was that the judge on voir dire asked the people to raise their hands that had heard of watergate. and he had a hundred people and maybe three hands went up. i thought uh-oh. what's going on here? they haven't even heard this term. it's been in the media and people don't even read newspapers. it was a sad experience. my family was there. it was just very sad. i was the first person of all of the, quote, watergate thing to ever go to trial because everybody else pled. and i maintained my innocence. and the reason i maintained my innocence was in my heart of

hearts when i went into that grand jury, i had no intention of lying. no expectation. nothing. i went in to tell the truth. and i got stumbled up over saying, not that i recall. and there were a couple other things, but they are very close to that. not to the best of my knowledge. so i came out of there thinking i had no problem. and earl glancer who is in a law firm in new york -- or in washington, says that there was a memorandum written by the arch bald cox people saying i was unindictable. and then the saturday night massacre happened. and then after the saturday night massacre, leon jaworski came in. they needed somebody quick. and they pulled out my testimony. they went through that testimony. and i was indicted within two weeks. and had the saturday night massacre not happened, i

probably would have never been indicted. >> so the grand jury is early '73. then a period of six months when it looks like you might not be indicted. the saturday night massacre is october of '73? >> right. i was indicted in november. >> so you thought this might go away? >> yeah. it started paling in relationship to everything else. the dirty tricks thing was just such an amateurish rinky dink thing. was it wrong? did segretti do things wrong? yes. he admitted he did. he took responsibility for it. did i lie? i didn't think so. did i try to mislead the grand jury? there was no question, by the way, when you read the grand jury thing, that i'm evading telling them that haldeman

and ehrlichman called me in there and told me. when it finally got down to the question and they asked it, i told them. i told them i had been called in and that they had told me to hire him. but you can see me wondering through there trying not to say that when you read it. >> trying not to say that haldeman and nixon or haldeman and ehrlichman. >> haldeman and ehrlichman. sorry. >> tell us about going to prison. >> it's not something that you want to do unless you absolutely have to. i had a great piece of advice on the prison thing. this elderly gentleman, who i had started being with and mentoring with, said dwight, either it can get the best of you or you can make the most of it. so i took and i set a schedule. same one i used at the white

house. i read more books than i have ever read in my life. i had a daily schedule. i couldn't hardly keep all the activities squared away. i had my jobs. they wanted to make sure i was not treated in any way that would be criticized. so they put me on a tractor out in the field because that was supposed to be punishment. they didn't know when i was 12, 13, 14, i lived in kansas and drove a tractor and loved it. and then they put me in the kitchen and that was fine. i opened a center for helping inmates find jobs when they left. and i ended up kind of doing this counseling thing where i help them prepare letters that seek jobs and do stuff. the calendar kept clicking away. i thought and i was told i would

probably be there four months, but again, we're deal with gearhart gazelle. i was there nine months. that was one of the longest of anybody. so i really got hammered. i got hammered really hard. and i think disproportionate to what i should have been hammered for. we needed to take -- the united states needed to take and set an example and say this kind of behavior would not be tolerated. and i understand that. and i can accept that. but i'll tell you, by the time we got to the ninth month, i was ready to tear my hair out. i really thought i needed to get out of there. the other thing is you're in there, and they are very nice people involved that work for the government in the prison system. that said, there are always other kinds of people. there was an office. and this guy called this one day.

he says, chapin, chapin to the office. i go to the office. he said, they missed. too bad. i said what did you mean? squeaky phone just tried to kill president ford and she missed. and i mean, i was so outraged. i wrote a letter to dick moore to give to the attorney general. and then dick called me and said, dwight, give up. just relax. you have to get through the process. but there were the injustices that i saw happening. i always said later, i wish i had gone to prison before i went to the white house. i really wish i had gone to prison before i went to the white house. because i saw things and know things and could have, in my little mind could have done things that would have helped solve some problems. >> can you give us examples? >> this whole incarceration and how it works.

what you do to people. you take these young people and put them in there and you collectify them. if they have a drug issue and they are in there and there's more drugs, you are creating an incubator effect rather than separating them out and giving them some kind of halfway house that's clean on the outside and not putting them into these facilities together. it's endless. the system is so screwed up. i'm not saying they are not very smart and wise people trying to work on this problem and people who understand it better than i do. i'm sure that's true. but there's just so much that needs to get done. it's so insane to take young men. we had a lot of young men in their 20s, early 30s who we were making worse, not better. and we should -- i happen to believe in rehabilitation. i do believe it's possible. i do think people make mistakes

and that they can be -- exceptions to that, but -- >> were your friends helpful? >> my friends have been spectacular. the nixon people have been absolutely wonderful. i don't know of one nixon person -- i haven't talked to john dean and i haven't talked to jeb, but i was friends with everybody, and i stayed friends with everybody. i loved what i did. and it was very important to me. and i think these friendships are golden. they still exist. >> why don't we take a minute. >> they are 14, 15 years old. the parents are out of town and

they get a hold of a few cases of beer. they have a few beers. but they don't have their driver's license yet, but they decide they are going to take the car and go around the block and come back just to prove they can drive. they start down the alley. they get halfway down and hit a trash barrel and back into a garage. and then they pull up and hit something. by the time they get the car back in the garage, the thing is a disaster. that's what watergate is. watergate was some very nice people, some solid people with some of the dumbest decisions in doing things imaginable. and it just got worse and worse and worse. now the oversimplification of that, i mean, these were not people that were out to rape the country of the democracy or t to -- that were evil. i don't buy into that.

the nixon move to contain this and manage it and so forth, had eisenhower been alive, dirksen or lyndon johnson been alive, watergate never would have happened. they would have picked up the phone and said, dick, what in the world is going on here? here's what you need to do. you need to separate yourself from these guys. john mitchell is mitchell's problem. haldeman is haldeman's problem, whatever it is. get rid of them. then the president would have survived. >> you went to see the president after 1974, after his resignation? >> several times. a few times. then i saw him at various occasions and reunions. >> one time you went with the children it was awkward but you

said characteristically so. did you ever talk to him about all of that? >> no, never. never. i was always -- i'm a, what are we going to do tomorrow type guy. i really don't wallow in the past. i don't do this. i am excited about what's going to happen tomorrow. and to wallow back on watergate or something with the president, i can't think of anything more uncomfortable than to have said, mr. president, i'm here today to see you and why don't we talk about watergate. what are your deepest feelings? it's just -- i know -- and the other part is -- i mean, i knew him pretty well. i didn't know him well in terms of i'm your friend and you're my friend. but i was around for years. and i observed and went with him.

i knew what he liked, disliked, felt about damn near everything. i would know instinctively that i'm raising the subject of watergate or going into all of this is not something that would be appreciated. >> are there some anecdotes or recollections that we haven't gotten to that you would like to preserve? >> we talked about the -- the humphrey thing. the lbj deal in detroit. the last press conference. nothing that jumps out right now.

>> did you ever see his rage? the president's rage? the public saw it that day when he pushed -- >> that's what's going through my head. >> i had a black and blue mark once. but it was a crowd situation where they were really pressing in. he was right next to me. he grabbed my arm so tightly. and i don't know whether he was frightened or what. it was in a campaign atmosphere. not rage. i have this calm thing about him. my job was to try to keep the tempo of everything right on track.

and if he got mad, his way of doing it with me would be to say, don't you understand? or you obviously don't understand. that one really got me. it was something i did understand and he'd say, you obviously don't understand when i knew i did understand. you know what i mean? but it wasn't rage. no. rage is not a word that i would use with nixon. but the ziegler thing was frustration. but rage? rage is an out of control aininger-type thing. mad, yes. upset, yes. pentagon papers or there's that story that there was some rally. maybe you have heard this. he was fit to be tied. it went wrong. we got on the airplane and

called the advance man up to the compartment and he said, i want it known back at headquarters this airplane is not going to land at anymore airports. do you understand? >> did you know you were being taped? >> no. you mean with the system in the white house? i had no idea. and i don't think there's many tapes of me. >> did you know you were being taped? >> i had no idea about the taping system. no. >> did you ever talk to haldeman about that after? >> no. never. >> did you ever talk to haldeman about that era? >> to some degree. one thing in his book, his first book, whatever the name of that thing was, that he claimed he should have never written but

did write, he did not reference the segretti thing correctly. he did not remember being in the office with nixon. they are telling me to do it. i said, bob, by god, that's what happened. when the revised edition came out, he corrected it and changed it. so, obviously, i had some discussion about it with him because he made the change. bob did come up to visit me so he could get a handle on what it would be like. he decided that's where he wanted to go. and we probably talked about the thing then. i mean, yeah, but i don't remember the substance. i'm sure we sat there and talked about it for hours, but i don't remember what the details of it are. >> we talked a bit about the

weekend that john mitchell decided to improve the plan. you had a sense that john mitchell had been on the phone with martha. >> no. he had been up all night with her. my understanding of it was, i wasn't there, but my understanding is that from john mitchell talking to him that john was up all night with martha. martha had a severe drinking problem. he had been up all night with her. then he had this meeting with her the next day. there's an interesting story here. the first time i ever heard the term president-elect was when john mitchell said, mr. president-elect, i can't go with you. that response was up in the waldorf towers when nixon put his arm around john's shoulder and said, john, we're going to