calories a day. so father took us to this fact ri. he put us behind some bushes across the street from the fence to the lumber fact ory and said to me you stay here. you're the man now. and i'll take mother and take them inside the factory and then i'll come and pick you up. as soon as he got up and left with them, i got quite panicy. i heard some stories about parents leaving their children behind. around i wasn't really a man. i was eight years old. a scared, hungry kid. so i started running after my

father screaming daddy, daddy, don't leave me here. so father had to turn around and pick me up. and there was a guard, ochk. who started telling my father what a terrible thing he's doing. and my father bribed him. i don't know where he had anymore things to bribe. he took his jacket off his back and says well, we are just going here for a few days. and, anyway, we all came in. father, i remember father spapged me. i never before or after that he spanked me. but he spanked me there. he said that i'm not angry for you running after me. but i'm angry that you thought that i could leave you. how could you think that i could leave you. well, anyway, we came to the

fact factory and the place was prepared for us. so we were there on the attic. and father would come at night. he would come and bring us some food and take the waste down onstrings. >> just so you know, this hiding place he constructed, he had it inside the lumber factory where he was working. >> oh, yes. yes, yes, yes. it was the shed where the wood was dried. >> about there you are hidden in there. >> yeah. so this is how he gave us, provided food. one day, a friend of his, a woman, a young woman, approached him and said jacob, this other

friend of mine, theresa, says that shed suspects you. she says i don't know whether you have anybody or got, but she suspects that you have somebody hiding here at the camp. at the factory. and she says that she just has to determine that it's -- that she's correct and she will do the right thing. what she meant by the right thing is to denounce them to the germans for a kilo of flour or sugar per person. that's what it was for jews at that time. father was, again, what to do? there's no place to run. my father had a friend who was a physician and was a director of the little clinic that they had in that factory. he talked to him and said we have to come up with some solution.

the doctor was educated in vienna, spoke injure man perfectly. he came to a very ingenious plan. he wrote an a anonymous letter that he's an ss officer on leave. and that he had an encounter with this woman and she infected him with syphilis. the next day, the two ss men came and took her away and took her to the clinic where the doctor was. and, of course, he certified that this was, indeed, he certified, yes, indeed, she has to be put away because she's a danger to the society. and especially to the ss men because they were very touchy. well, she was put away, not to be seen until after the war.

so this was another miracle in our survival. >> marcel, given that miracle, your father realized you just could not stay there permanently. so he had to find another place for you. so absolutely, i know you want to tell us about going there. >> yes, absolutely. not only did -- this wasn't a long term hiding place. people could see, sooner or later. but the germans were going to liquidate the work camps and everybody would have to go. so my father took his arm bandoff. and, as i said, well, the jewish

man were in danger going outs of the ghetto and going out of the working place. only the jews were circumcised in poland. but he took off his arm band and went to the bidding where my mother was born and talked to certain people. some were not so nice. they'll ask him of his watch or they'll denounce him. and finally, he went to a family that knew my mother since she was a little girl and they were very friendly. and they agreed to take us.

of course, the deal was that mrs. savinsky will come to the camp, to the lumber factory where my father was hiding, working. and she will take my sister and my mother. the deal was if i would be there and somebody would come, see me, determine that i'm jewish, the whole family would be killed and the jews would be killed: so my father was -- he was ready to let my mother go and my sister. that we should save whoever could be saved. and we were ready. mrs. savinsky came to the place where my father -- the dormitory.

and it was at night, of course. and we started to prepare to say good-bye. my mother would have to stay with father or go with my sister and save my sister. it was a very, very hard decision. and we all cried. and then at one moment, she said i can't take it anymore. whatever will be, will be. take him with you. by the way, the savinsky names are here. and so there wasn't muchd luggage to take with us. we had absolutely nothing. so she took us, my mother and my

sister and me to her -- to their house, to their farm. they were very poor. the law that applied to everybody about rationed food applied to faerms, too. they were not allowed to slaughter any animals without telling the germans. they had to have a permit to slaughter an pals. even schikens. the germans had lists of all that the farmers had. on the other hand, they couldn't go on the black market and buy food -- well, i should tell you that after a few months when we were hiding there, there were 13 of us, 13 jews. some came from other members.

>> so mrs. savinsky started with just taking your mom and your sister, and then you, and then before long 13 in their house. and it was a tiny little place. >> it was very house covered with straw. >> like a thatched roof. >> thatched roof. right. thatched roof and no chimney. so when they cooked things, the smoke would go to the -- up to the attic and out. and this was one of the places that some of us hid. >> in the attic where the smoke was coming. >> where the smoke was. and so food was a big, big problem. we were very hungry. we were very in danger.

my sister, i remember we would look out. and there were different hiding places in the stable, she would look through the cracks in the wall and say why wouldn't i be a chicken. i could be fre and run around and when the time comes to run around. wile couldn't i be a chicken? i would like to be a chicken. i would like to be free. >> marc, l, some of you were hidden under the floor. >> it was a dirt floor. just a hole. >> you're hidingen in a hole. some in the attic, some are out in a wood shed. but 13 people hidden.

so the youngest son would go to a factory. so there wasn't much left. this was spg that to many, had 2 first choice before the pigs. we were -- we bathed once a month. and it was like first the children in the same water.

and then the parents and then, you know, the saying throw the water don't throw the water with the baby? this is because people in the middle ages lived like that. at the end, the water was so dirty, that the child could have been thrown out. we were in that situation. >> and, of course, there was no medical care. there was no way to get -- if spg went wrong, you couldn't get a doctor. at one point, that was a major concern of your sister? >> yes, my sister was a bleeder. she would bleed from her nose. and she was very pale. of courses we were malnourished and we didn't play outside: so we were worried what would we do with my sister's body when she died. you couldn't put a grave in the neighborhood or something like

that. luckily, she did survive. >> marcel, you lived in those circumstances for almost a year. all of those folks hidden in that house. tell us how it ended? how liberation came about for you? >> we were lib rated by the red army on august 5th, 1944. i don't remember the date, i just know the date. i read a lot about these things. april 5 9, 1944. as we left, the savinsky's got out of the house. we wore the same things that we came in. the shoes, the shoes were gone. well, there was just -- there

was just -- we were -- we were -- i couldn't -- actually, i couldn't walk because my leg muscles were atrophied. i couldn't talk because we were not allowed to talk. only to whisz per. and then, after -- the war came to all the jews that survived are going together in some place in the town. so we all went there. and there was about 350 of us. people came from the woods, from the hiding and the farmers. tlrn also those that came later that survived in the -- in russia.

one of my uncles was taken prisoner of war. he was in the russian army. was taken prisoner of war by the italians. we didn't know about it. his wife thought -- that's a different story, but i joous have to finish. his wife thought that he's dead because the germans killed all the jewish p.o.w.s. and she married my uncle, who lost his wife. well, among those that came after the, you know, after the war was this uncle that they're in, that the italians took p.o.w., they didn't expect that. so this was another 300, 400 people out of 12 e 000. >> marcell, before we close, there's a cup 8 of things i'd like to ask you before we close. right before you were liberated,

there was a fierce bombardment u the soviets and the germans had a bombardment going on around you. that was csignificant for you because it gave you an opportunity to get fresh air. >> yes. that? >> there were two refineries. one was a national refinery. polish, and one was a private. so somehow, the americans or the british managed to fly into this territory and bomb the government refineries. they didn't touch the private, evidently. somebody in america was part owner of that thing. but anyway, when the bombers came and were, you know, bombing the factory, this was the only time that we could get out and straighten our legs and get some fresh air. >> while everybody else was hunkered down.

>> everybody was hiding against this. >> you were out there getting fresh air. >> we were out being free for a few moments. >> when you were liberated, when you knew you were liberated and the war was over for you, your family and other jews that had survived came under suspicion by the soviets. >> yes. my father -- my father was -- he was made a director of that ceo of that factory where he was the accountant before the war. and he was -- this was -- the war was still going on, so he was providing wood to the red army. and he was happy to do that. but he was barefoot. and once a russian general comes in and he says how dare you be barefoot? you're a big director and you don't wear any shoes.

he said, well, i don't have any shoes. so he gave father a pair of shoes for him and a pair of shoes -- boots. for me. but father was called to the kgb, and he was accused of being a collaborator. he says 12,000 people were killed, and you survived. how come that you survived? you must have been a collaborator. father says, well, i was no collaborator. i just was lucky, and i was, you know, i survived. but he got some people, some other survivors that confirmed that father was not a collaborator. that he was decent, honorable man. but the other part of my life started right there.

i had to -- i wasted three years of my education. i grew about one inch in all these three years because there was no food. so i had a lot of catching up, a lot of -- a lot of to do to become normal, to have a normal life. but this is a long, long other long story. >> one last question. and then we need to wrap up. you told me that your father made good on promises that he had made to himself about the savinski family after what they had done. will you say a little bit about them and the savinskis and your father. >> it was my uncle, when he wanted to come to hide, during one, a crystal chandelier fell

down and broke, and my uncle picked some of the crystals and asked a friend, jeweler, to make a ring that looks like a diamond ring. and the friend did it. and when my uncle went to ask the savinskis to take him in, he gave them that ring. he said this is a diamond ring. you know, you can just keep that ring, but because mr. savinski said my cow just died and i'm going to sell it, he said, no, no, this has tremendous emotional value to me. so keep it and i'll -- you know, i'll get, you return it to me and i'll buy you a cow right after the war. and so it was.

the savinskis got a few of these 13, three of them, he was with his new wife and her daughter. and just recently, i went to -- my wife and i went to the warehouse where the things like that are, my photos and everything. i was telling them, something mentioned about the ring. they said, oh, we all know about the ring. i wrote a story about it. the story is called "the diamond and the cow." and it's not a -- it's not a -- it's quite like three page story. >> it's online, right? >> it's online. it's one of my stories that's online. but the people there, they knew it. they took the pictures and they just registered that ring. >> after all these years? >> well, because we didn't have that ring.

only when my uncle's last, the third wife, died, they didn't know what to do with the ring in israel, and my sister got the ring and donated it to the holocaust museum. >> i wish, and i know our audience does, too, marcel, that we had more time with you, because you had to really skip over many, many -- >> oh, yes. >> -- many different things during that six-year period that you described for us. so thank you. and i'm going to turn back to marcel to close our program in just a moment. i want to thank all of you for being with us at first person. remind you that we will have programs each wednesday and thursday until the middle of august. so hope you can come back and join us. and if not, maybe perhaps in 2015, and our website will have information about our programs then. it's our tradition at first person, that our first person has the last word. so i'm going to turn back to marcel to close our program because we didn't have an

opportunity for you to ask some questions, marcel, you can stay behind for a little bit? >> absolutely. >> when we're done, marcel will step off the stage. feel free to come and ask him a question or just say hi. >> or give me a hug. >> or give him a hug. he likes hugs. gratefully accepted. with that, marcel. >> i'm talking to you and others who want to listen to me because there are people and organizations who claim that the holocaust is a hoax. that it never happened, that the jews made it up to get money from the germans. i am a witness that it did happen. by listening to the stories of my childhood, you will become witnesses also. our good friend, the late charlene shift, which you knew very well, said we all have to fight the four evil eyes. intolerance, injustice, ignorance and indifference. these are the roots of men's

moral corruption that allowed hitler and his helpers to come to power and torture and murder millions of people he considered undermentioned, not worth living. not only jews, but people with disabilities, gypsies, homosexuals and many other groups. changing these behaviors is the path to preventing holocausts and genocides, and this is what this holocaust museum is all about. i also want to read you what pastor miller said when he was liberated. first, they came for the socialists, and i did not speak out because i was not a socialist. then they came for the trade unionists and i did not speak out because i was not a trade unionist. then they came for the jews and i did not speak out because i was not a jew.

then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me. you cannot be bystanders. we have to be active. in trying to prevent genocides, homicides, hatred of all kind. racism of all kind. thank you. [ applause ] you're watching american history tv in primetime. we're taking the opportunity while congress is on break to show you programs normally seen weekends here on c-span 3. coming up the troubles allied troops faced after the normandy invasion. that's followed by a look of the role chaplains played in world

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