alive again. >> yes. this has been very interesting. i thank you very much for your presentation. i'm so sorry there aren't more people here to enjoy this and to learn more about the monarchs. i would like to know has there ever been or do you think there ever will be a movie that goes back and delves into the history of the monarchs because they were a great inspiration, a foot hold to all of the black players in the american leagues today, in fact all sports, i think. >> yeah. that's an excellent question. i think, you know, i'm a person who grew up watching baseball movies, and i would say that there's been some attempts to write a few movies. there was one called "the soul

of the game" and it wasn't that great of a movie. even "42," it came out last year, they have one little part in the front that talks about the kansas city monarchs and, you know, you don't see any footage. i think not only the kansas city monarchs, a really good movie could be written about the whole black baseball experience. i think you would need somebody who knew what was going on to write a good movie about it. and i might mention too, when i first started doing research on the negro leagues, going back to the early '80s, i've just seen so many things change. when i first started doing research people said oh, you won't find photographs. and, of course, after i found 600 of them, actually i found close to always paid his

players. now i have run into players over the years who told me that they are still waiting for third check for a game they played in 1928. but that wasn't the case with

wilkinson. and foster as well, kept immaculate records. players made money playing those teams. that's one of the reasons why the monarchs were so successful because they had players, bullet rogan there was from 1920 to 1938 when he retired. newt joseph was there from 1922 to 1937. newt allen was there from 1922 to 1946. the players came and they loved playing for j.l. wilkinson. and they got paid well and so they stayed. they worked for their money but they got paid well and so, but, yeah, these weren't pick up abilene there was a promoter and the promoter knew we would get ex-amount of the gate and i have to pay the monarchs 65% of the gate. it was pretty tough going for some depending on the own but wilkinson paid his players well.

this kind of ties in with that question. when you showed a couple of shots, one of the records where they played it looked like you had maybe eight, maybe nine games in a row where they played days in a row and also you showed the picture of the town team when they are barn storming the town team along with the monarchs and unless i miscounted it looked like ten guys. typically how many traveled on the team and were they that limited on players. >> i know in 1929 they had to cut their roster down and they carried 13 players. so you could play over 100 games with 13 players. you need a guy like bullet rogan who could play the outfield at the same time he could pitch. so he was like two players in one. so they could carry a smaller roster like that and still play. it just depends. sometimes some of the players might not have gotten into the picture but they used to roomin

houses -- as a matter of fact there was lady i know she was from south dakota, african-american lady and later moved to kansas city and she said that the only black people that she saw from outside her community were musician, circus people and baseball players because those were the only ones that came in and room with her. she knew lots of circus and musicians and athletes but didn't know anybody else. boardinghouses would take up the slack and some places they would have, you know, some of the larger cities they would have black owned hotels. but out in this part of the

country if they played in, you know, if they played in, say, sioux falls, south dakota or omaha and they could get back the same day they came back the same day. one thing i may mention they played almost every single day. time. mention there was a lady she was married to a ball player who played for the memphis red sox, his name was larry brown and this was his wife and i interviewed her. she married him and then went with the team on the trip. and she was on the bus with the team and she said we were gone for a month and we stayed in a hotel two times. >> thank you. most of us know that the first black player that went to the major leagues was not 100% chosen on talent alone. in your research, and what you look at, would that same person be chosen by you or would

somebody else have been chosen, just in retrospect? >> here is the reason why i say that. jackie robinson was chosen during world war ii. the best african-american baseball players were in the war. they weren't even here. maybe he was one of the better players. i can't deny one thing. he was an excellent choice when you look back on it. i mean, you couldn't get a better choice. i know he needed

later on he was. i might mention one thing that -- i could probably name a half a dozen who would have been good players who came up later. interesting thing about jackie robinson, the brooklyn dodgers actually stole jackie robinson from the monarchs. they never compensated them. wilkinson who owned the team and a man who had part ownership, they could not say anything, because they would be looked upon as holding the black player back if they were to argue this debate about why didn't you compensate us for this player. this is a business. so they didn't say anything. quiet quietly, they had their own boycott. no kansas city monarch plays for the dodgers again. boycotted.

brooklyn dodgers. >> do you have any record of anthony kansas in the monarchs? >> sure. >> my dad played for anthony about 90 years ago. if there's some way you could -- i would appreciate it. it's been a long time since i even knew -- my dad has been gone 50 years. >> i tell you what. they did play anthony kansas. as i was coming down the freeway today, i'm driving past all these places that i know the monarchs appeared. i know they played at fort riley, at junction city, they

were at manhattan, clay center. i can go out west. practically any city that was a city had a baseball team, and they had a kansas league that

he had great stories. satchel page, you know -- let me put it this way. kansas had its own unique form of racism. i know a little bit about boxing. boxing was considered a contact sport.

so until 1938, i think it was 1938 was the first year that they would let black amateur boxers fight white amateur boxers in kansas. they could go in missouri. but kansas black fighters couldn't fight the white fighters in kansas to qualify. they had to fight other black players -- black fighters in kansas. in certain sports, they had high school rules. they considered basketball a contact sport. schools couldn't play against white schools in basketball because those were some of the rules. slowly, those rules have disappeared. but it was pretty tough times. there was a gentleman by the name of -- actually, he has -- there's two players. he has a couple of grandsons. i will recall his name. he played for the colorado springs sky sox. he told me the story of -- his name was sam harriston.

he said he had to go in the back. he would go in the back of the restaurant and where the cooks were. the cooks were black. so he would go back there and the players would go in the front. they are out in the restaurant. they pay $5. they get their meal, whatever it was. probably didn't cost $5 back then. he was in the back. so he was eating twice as much food. when he would leave, they would give him a to-go sack. so he would leave, and he would tell me stories about that night, his teammate, what did your people put in the sack for you? they were hungry again. he was the only one with a sack. you make the best out of a bad situation. that's what some of the players did. sam, of course, has his -- he had two sons that played in the big monarchs

against the house of david and get three dates out of the same city. they did this all over the country. barnstorming was -- it was intelligent move from the money side. the teams who barnstormed the best survived the longest. >> if we don't have any additional questions, phil will be available to sign his books. we want to thank phil for coming out. thank you, phil. >> thank you. [ applause ]

former pro athletes bill russell and jim brown tell their stories. popular spectator sport. now the history of racial equality in professional sports. former basketball player bill russell and former football player jim brown talk about their struggles. they discuss the role of african-americans in college and professional sports today. this panel from the lyndon johnson's presidential summary civil rights summit is about an hour m. >> good afternoon.por my name is mike cramer. i'm the director of the texas we program and sports and media e here at the university of texast we are pleased to partner againe with the lbj library.

this is our fifth event we haveo partnered with them. this is on sports in society cgr that was founded by one of the distinguished alumnis. ha we are police e pleased to part on many occasions. we also have an interesting war, timing w of this today. yesterday, one of rights movemet

in the last 50 years. w we aree ecstatic, pleased, prou that we can present them and have a conversation with them with you today. let me say that again.0 we have here probably the top ] three people in this area in the last 50 years. [ applause ] so let me get on with the program. it's them you are here to see.l. i'd like to introduce to you dr. harry edwards, mr. bill russell, mr. jim brown. h.

take it away. >> thank you very much. it's a real pleasure to be here with two men that i have known t forouc about the last 45 or 50 years. if you hear a touch of respect and affection in t my voice during the course of o this conversation, you have me correctly. i want t to begin by stating thc there have been four athletes over the last half of the 20th o century who have been utterly transformative. of course, is the s immortal jackie robinson.ble m [ applause ] mr. bill russell. [ applause ]an the third is the incomparable mr. jim brown. [ applause ]

and the fourth is the absolutele unconcurable, miss billy jeanl e

people. i their argument was, and that i as a man am part of the people and i insist on being respectedb as such throughout that -- theis books. and then the fourth thing that s really blew me away and that i find amazing to this day is how young they were. we are talking about 22, 23, 24 years old. ent what we call today a young sando

adult.x aware of consigning an entire a4 generation of y people to sand o citizenship. they were speaking out at 24 years old when this happened. so i would like, first of all, to go back to that time and i'm going to exercise my prerogat e prerogatives as the only 72-year-old up here and call you young men by your first names. and ask about what took you to , that place? that place? why don't we start, jim, with terms of this. how do you end up in that placet at 23, 24 years old? >> i was very fortunate to havea a great mother, no father. went to high school with a great coach. a great mentor, kenny malloy and they were impeccable from the ,l standpointf of advocating

education, self-determination. and i had an example of the us people that were really good. w there was tremendous ld discrimination in this country at the time. it was told to me that i could be loved and popular if i would bow down and do a little dance.l i don't know if you know what but i said, i don't really dance.er t [ laughter ] pay i just prefer to be a man. an american citizen.m, and i pay my taxes.justic i want my rights. so freedom, equality and justice is what i pursued it at all coso because nothing else would substitute for that., no

that i was okay.ather and my mother and father always treated each other with respect. and so what i went out into the world, that's the way i thoughtw it was supposed to be. >> dokay. yo and did everything you couldu t change it to make that way when wasn't? >> huh? mother >> did everything to make it is that way when it wasn't? >> my mother told me what i was young, she says to me one day, m you cane. play in the front yar for the first time. she had kept me in the backyard

all the time. she said, the reason i want you is y th peoplein will walk by and they will say things to you, good ori bad, butv it has nothing to do with you. it has to do with them and their perspective. so you play and have fun. don't worry about that. >> okay. >> so when i grew up, i . encountered things. i knew i was okay.a f but moving ahead, a few years ago i met nelson mandela.

we had a brief conversation. and i asked him how he could be such a good person of all the f things that he had encountered.w and he said, if i had reacted the way they predicted that i would act, then they were right.

there was a statement that you made early on in one of your earliest books where you stated had never been a time when you h were not conscious of the civild rights movement. i was veryee conscious of the civil rights movement and very acer=a:íutiat i called the s movement for dignity equality o and justice. it superseded my interest in

sports. sports gave me an opportunity to help the cause. and that is what i dedicated myself to doing. theights m now, i know that you supported c the civil rights movement. but you were ahead of the civil rights movement in terms of youd focus on economic development. what led you to move beyond blk simple desegregation to economic development, to starting the ees black economic union, setting ua these offices all over the country, traveling through the k deep south in a bus with other professional athletes talking to small -- black small business ah people in georgia, alabama, tennessee? what led i you to that sense th that was the direction things had to go into? >> well, it was understanding that people had to get off of their butts. regardless of what the to condition, use intelligence and labor as they could to deliver a

themselves. we couldn'tny depend on a government or corporate america or anyone else. so i was always a person that ib advocated economic development because america is a capitalist society. it's based on economics. if you don't use economics in your community, your community will never grow. the jewish community in this country and the world has proven s minority and apply the right principals and emancipate yourself. i thought the african-american d community had to apply itself, have the greatest community, the safest communities and probablyn most of all understand economic development. sp and i attracted the top young mba's in the country.

and i got the top black athletes in the country.ndati and i put them together. and we got a grant of over $1 million at the time.entrep we hadre a fund that any young t blackhe entrepreneur could come and make that loan and get the benefit of the knowledge of our natural business planning team. so that was the way i felt we could gain equality quicker than doing anything else. >> you know, i want people to really understand. we're talking about -- think of. a 26, 25, 27-year-old athlete s today that would have that kindt of insight and vision. that's how far ahead you were in terms of that situation. it astounds me t even now.3rúw$: $÷$x8leñ6]d:4cfi÷éfo!+/i(gnbrp

into the language, had you w already set up relationships inw west africa and were talking about how we needed to connect with african countries and have mutual economic development and so forth. you also went into the south.ow i mean, two months after the assassination, i know you went down to mississippi. it was aç(>?ykh frightening tims held integrated basketball clinics in mississippi two months after the death. of course, your sell ti celtic h said, just keep a low profile.6t but you wental down and held the clinics. while you were down there, you talked to young people about thh

necessity of completing school, becoming economically viable and so forth. >> well, most of the people, as i could see, were economically deprived. i felt that as one of the places where you can purchase equality a charity, you could make it a force. i know i was in boston. and there was a great many questions about why i would go to africa.ople th

people told me, africans don't like you. well, the people that were telling me that didn't like me. [ laughter ] so i wanted to go and see for e myself.s, okay? some guy came to me and he says, what do you know about africa? you don't know anything about them. they are not like you.aid you got no business doing that. so i said, you know, i have this mine. they have been accused of supporting the irish revolution. the family was the kennedys. i knew all of them. in fact, i'm old enough that i

remember meeting and sitting ans talking with rose kennedy. g and i said, well, if it's already for them to go back where their ancestors came from, why isn't that all right for met to go back where i think my ancestors came from? about so it was all about -- see, i never, ever considered myself as a leader or anything like that. all i did was -- one thing i wanted to make sure that i never did anything that my father would be ashamed of. so the things i did, for boston example, i coached the boston " celtics. coach of the ayer boston celtics.

so they said, you are the firstk black coach in the nba. in fact, you are the first black coach manager in baseball, football and basketball in the major leagues. what about that? and i said to them, if red had ever said to me, this is a great social experience -- experiment, i would have nothing to do with it. o the only reason i would do it, because i'm convinced that i'm the best person for the job. [ applause ] so where i considered trying to do everything in my life based on merit. and i expected all of the people

i surround myself -- >> to do the same? coll >> jim and i have known each other since college. and he used to tell me all the time that he was a better basketball player than i was anyway. aid, >> averaged 38 points a game. >> and i said, jim, no. [ laughter ] said to him one time, i said, you know, i think you n are one of the greatest athletes, if not the greatest athlete of the 20th century. but leave basketball alone. [ laughter ]pporte

jim saw andd i support ed, if y don't have any wherewithal to exercise influence, then you and i tried to live a life thaty would exercise influence. i personally am not interested d in that.- i'm just interested in -- i and ike always let them know th i love them. i think one of the key things about raising kids.ow.

my daughter -- i have to fight off her telling me what to do now. she graduated from harvard law school. the minute she gets i agree from harvard, she knows everything. [ laughter ] where so i just try to see where things are needed, recognize that things are needed and try to put myself in a place where i can make a difference. >> let's jump to the present.ns? where did the train leave the hm track? where are the bille russells? where are the jim browns? i know we don't expect people to do the same way -- do things the same way they were done in the same sense that bill, you and

jim didn't do things the same way that jackie robinson did orw that jesse owens or joe lewis did. how did we comeun to a place whe we have the level of uninvolvement, apathy, a lack of concern about the broader issues that you speak of now? >> you mentioned jackie robinson. i met him a couple times. when he died, i got a call fromw rachel robinson. she said that she wanted me to be a pallbearer at his funeral.d and i said, that's an overwhelming honor. why me? she said, you were one of jackie's favorite athletes.one

and i took that to say jackie as had done a tremendous thing for he was the first black to play baseball, but he was never a pushover. and he took us to a place that opening up this whole world for us. i but i was not going to re-visit that place.nd i wanted to take it to the next step. >> which you most certainly did. >> and so when red asked me -- he said, he's retiring.ch i went back to my coach. he said i'm retiring.

me. job? i said, hell no. no i said, i watch what you go through. i don't want no part of that. so we agreed, both made out a ten guys that we would approve of. o he said, nobody can get the job unless you approve of it. so i made a list of ten and he made a list of ten. s there were no matches.a and so he said, what do you want to do? i said, i don't know. he said, okay, well -- he decided however on this one s i coach. i and he said, this is what i'm going to hire.i so i said, red, if you hire him, i am going to retire with you.t [ laughter ] i don't even want to be in the same room with that person.nd

i cleaned it up. i said person. and he said, why? i said, no. to i will not be on the team with a him. he said, what do you want to do/ i said, i tell you what. i will take the job as a player, coach. if it doesn't work, if you ask e me to, i will quit or you can fire me. it doesn't make a difference.n." and i will give whoever you replace me with 100% cooperation. t because i didn't want to -- i had grown to love that organizati organization. i wasn't going to do anything to harm it. >> mess it up, yeah. >> i did a pretty good job. >> i think you did. 11 nba championships.

>> what i'm talking about is, ia wasnt player coach with no assistants. i didn't have any assistants. >> nobody could work with you. [ laughter ] i heard that story. >> i can be difficult. >> i know. song >> you know, i had a song written for me. he talked about my father. and the key line to the song t was, i am my father's son. and he taught me how to be a man by being one. and so, i think that i can have friendships with guys that politically we're completely

opposed. but since i, demand respect, i was also given respect.ght so the things i did, i tried to do for the right reasons. never to prove anything to someone i don't know.probably jim is a life-long friend. fr probably after my hofather, the best friend i've ever had. and the whole thing was based on mutual respect. you know what's odd about it to me is, jim and i have known each other since college. that's in the 1950s. and i do not remember -- he sayu

he doesn't remember -- when we met. >> momentous time there. momentous moment. thi >> the foundation is -- of the whole thing is, we live in ameri america, and the better america is for everybody here, the better america will be. m. >> for everybody. [ applause ] be >> i'd like to emphasize what you said, because this is a very diverse audience.sunderst sometimes i'm misunderstood. i think sometimes you're misunderstood. when you talk about jackie robinson -- knew jackie very ak

well. had a lot ofbout admiration for. but i always talked about the man that truly integrated baseball was not jackie. it was branch rickie. jackie called him mr. rickie.he he stepped out and he decided that baseball should be do. integrated. one reason might be because t is the right thing to do. the other reason might be the as box office, the black audience out there that went to baseball games. and he could have chosen satcheh page or josh gibson because thet were great, h great baseball ece players. but he chose jackie because he knew jackie had the ability to a play great baseball yet play the political role that he had to play, even though it was killing him.--o y and so i say to you that i had l and people like him. so if i digress from there, i go

to slavery n and the under grou railroad. you mru take notice of these things to be able to live in properly, i feel.riett the under ground railroad represented harriet tubman.basia she was given tremendous praise for being that pioneer who verlo basically lived her life to free the slaveske. hou what iss also overlooked is thav thosees free houses that those e people put up for the slaves to stay at and to hide them and to get them up to the north and get tl them to canada were regular people, regular people. nothing special. tal but the commonality was that o they were good human beings. when we talk, the three of us -s i want to emphasize this. we always talk about the rig category of good human beings

before we talk about white, black, whatever.us and thate becomes important in y being a man, because if i have t charity in my soul or the wisdom man of god, a ay man of trying to do the right thing. therefore, nothing you can do or say to me will change my attitude about my manhood. over the years, the biggest n problem that we have had in this country is whenever you stand ue for the right thing, even though it's for the overall populous, c people take the attitude that s yout are a racist or they call t an opposite racist. so i wanted to make that point, because when you say where are we today, well the one guy that

i depend on most, young man that juf just won the super bowl and who is a tremendous human being and has gotten through troubledthe times and understands what we f are doing is ray lewis. ray, i think, can be the leadert of a lot of these young individuals who need that leadership, who want to learn t what to do and how to participate in making tremendous change within this country. i thought i would interject its that. >> there is no question that thn ever -y generation has to develo its own leadership.m i think that we can -- people oe our generation can do the analysis and tell them about rsp what happened and a where we thy they are. but ultimately, it's this generation that's going to have to take the leadership and ask responsibility. let me ask, i know that -- because we are running short here. let me ask this.y i know that progress many timest

is a lot like the concept of profit. it really comesin downg to who keeping the books. and so in looking at where we are, how much progress have we t actually made in sports given the fact that we are down to 8% african-americans in baseball, 21% in 1973 the heavyweight division of boxing is just about wiped out. i remember a time when there wa, ali and norton and george foreman and patterson and youngy and cleveland williams and larry holmes couldn't break into the r lineup. partner. a today, you couldn't find two t people in 100 in an ender african-american community who t could tell if you there was a black heavyweight contender around now. when you look a t the fact that n.

the nba is one-quarter foreign born, we are losing spots there. how much progress have we mp in actually made? where are we in terms of that concept? >> harry,an i'm going to jump i there because i think a simple way i can say that jimmy carter, president carter experiensoldee yesterday was almost everything you need to know about progress, about heart, about honesty and about the future. he is on top of it in every way. so i would say to all of america, if you can get a tape of the jimmy carter presentation affair unbelievable. [ applause ] >> there's a movement going on

now about unionizing college athle athletes. i'll be very interested in both of yourti e opinions in terms ok this unionization effort. it's just starting. i think people are looking posit around for an opinion, a perspective on an it that they understand and wrap their minds about. jim? bill?his phr >> bill, you want to take this? >> for me, i have this phrase that i use. all great fortunes are amassed with either cheap or slave one labor.ever and soyb the ncaa is one group everybody is focusing on.