history bookshelf with the best-known american history writers, the presidency, looking at the policies and legacies of our nation's commanders in chief, lectures and history with top college professors delving into america's and our new series, featuring archival films from the 1930's through 1970's. by the cableted industry and funded by your local cable or satellite provider. next, on the civil war, a panel of history professors traces the evolution of slavery as depicted in film since the 1930's. m drawing examples from films "amistad,"ingo," and "12 years a slave." they describe changes in race relations and gender portrayals in films, and how slave characters have shifted from the background into leading roles. this event is from the civil war

historians biennial meeting in baltimore. it is about an hour and a half. >> in the past two years, three feature films whose focus is american slavery and emancipation have been released to positive and often glowing reviews. all of them were profitable. ned" made 160i million dollars at the box office. "lincoln" made $182 million. made $56 a slave," million, but only cost $20 million to make. urge hast of mini-ups provoked a lot of debate and discussion about depictions of slavery and freedom in film and other forms of media. in television, documentaries, and youtube shorts, different series. we are continuing the conversation today.

all of our panelists are fierce scholars of the american south and of race and gender. they have also written about, reviewed, taught courses on, and consulted for films about slavery. has been clinton teaching at queens university belfast since 2006, but will be coming back to the united states this fall to be a professor of europe's -- u.s. history at the university of texas san antonio. she is the author of numerous books about gender, race, and the civil war, including biographies of mary todd lincoln. and harriet tubman. she has edited the diaries and memoirs of susie king taylor. professor clinton served on advisory committees to the virginia sesquicentennial commission, and is an advisory

member for ford's theater in washington, d.c. and the "civil war times." historical -- served as historical consultant to steven spielberg's "lincoln." john inscoe is the professor of history and university professor at the university of georgia. he is the author of "mountain the crisisavery and " andstern north carolina, he is the co-author of "the heart of confederate appalachia, the civil war in western north carolina." he is currently the editor of the "new georgia encyclopedia" and the outgoing secretary of the southern historical association. professor inscoe recently entitled a book -- wrote a book entitled "expirations in southern biography" and is working on a book on appalachia

in film. ofnda stevenson is professor history at ucla, where she has served as both chair of the department of history and the intergovernmental program in african american studies. she authored the award-winning monograph "life in black and " and "the origins of the l.a. writes," which just won a prize. her newest work, "what is slavery," will be published in 2015. she has received report -- support from the mellon foundation, the smithsonian institution, and the american institution of university women. so clearly a group of slackers. [laughter] we will start with john inscoe and move down the table with comments from the palace -- pa nel.

>> thank you. i think i'm here because i teach a course on slavery in film and fiction. we start with "birth of a nation," move through the plantation melodramas of the 1930's, films like "jezebel," colonel," and of course "gone with the wind."s then we move onto walt disney's "song of the south." then we jump to the modern era in the 1990's, another spurt of movies about slavery with "amistad" in 1997, a lesser known film called "the journey of august king," and toni morrison's "beloved," then on up to "django unchained" and "12 years a slave."

using these films as measures of clinical progress -- racial progress or the lack thereof in culture, hollywood in the 1930's was entrenched in the loss cost -- cause. slaves of background figures, ts, often your background really serving their masters or mistresses, who for the most part are benign and well-meaning but firm and authoritative and sometimes frustrated at the ineptitude of their slaves. not much changed by 1946, when walt disney took on uncle remus in a children's film. most of you know "song of the south." despite the fact that it is banned, or at least not distributed by walt disney company in this country. it actually generated significant controversy when it came out, and shows is how much more sensitive race had become by 1946 in the postwar era than

in the 1930's. and it took until the early 1970's before it was banned, when walt disney finally gave in to pressure of its political incorrectness. a video that was smuggled to me by a former student of mine lives in japan, where it is very popular, where you can see it with japanese subtitles. that works beautifully, to look at " song of the south" with japanese subtitles. the japanese are intrigued by all things other in, " gone with the wind" as well as "song of the south." subtitles only appear when they sing. apparently they can understand the spoken voice, but when you hear the songs you need subtitles. but i think it is an interesting film, because it is a milestone of sorts, as politically

incorrect as it is. it is also the first film to take a black character and making the central character around which the plot revolves. it also makes him the most sympathetic and the wisest character. he outsmarts all the white adults in the film. nevertheless, he is a slave or ex-slave, as it may be. the film is very ambivalent about whether it is set before or after the civil war. but it is interesting to teach it with students and look at the ways in which it sometimes advances the cause as far as the prominence of slavery and putting slaves centerstage. some of the old guard assumptions about slavery, it is very comfortable in perpetuating. by the 1950's and 1960's, hollywood was producing more socially conscious and

cutting-edge films based on race. things like "pinkie," "the who'st ones," "guess coming to dinner," "in the hawet of the night," but it steered clear of slavery in any real way. i don't really deal with "roots" butmandingo" with students, with these modern films from the 1990's on to the recent films we have seen last year, i want to throw out a couple things that strike me as worthy of discussion. one is the gender dimension here. i thought with this panel gender might not get much play. [laughter] but it is interesting in these earlier films, slaves are totally desexualized. university slave couples, men -- you never see slave couples, men

and women together in any household contacts. they are usually asexual figures. you never see them as parents. they are supporting cast. there are also relative nonissues in "glory" and "lincoln," but several films make the plight of slate women central themes or important subplots. two of them put slave women front and center, "beloved" and "the journey of august king." itis a far lesser film, but is one i am interested in because it is set in western north carolina. by a historical novelist who has done historical novels covering southern appalachian history. early,et in 1815, very and it deals with the escape of a slave girl who was abused by her owner, who it turns out in

the course of the film is also her father. and a yeoman farmer who encounters her, befriends her, and aids her in her escape. andy newton plays the slave jason petter place august king, the yeoman who helps her. there is a strong attraction between them that always remains chaste, but the father slash owner slash lover is determined to find her and goes to know and to have a manhunt after her. in many ways, it is the most interesting and in some ways nuanced and sophisticated treatment of class distinctions and class attitudes. not only toward slavery, but toward slaveholders. there is tremendous resentment, at a time in place -- and place in which slavery is much more the anomaly than the norm, the mountains of carolina in the

frontier era. the other is "beloved." it is a ghost story of sorts, dealing with the long-term psychic stars of slavery -- scars of slavery. cincinnati, but based on the abuses only seen in brief flashbacks that are inflicted on the film's heroine, played by oprah winfrey, who when cornered by slave catchers murdered one of her own children and try to kill another. based on the real-life case of margaret garner in 1856 in cincinnati. in this 1873 post-emancipation period, she continues to be haunted by an adolescent version of the infant girl that she murdered. she is also played by sandy newton. a clunky film, not a great film, but it is fascinating it was

even made into a film. students read the novel and we watched parts of the film. then we come to "12 years a djangod and even " unchained." hardware they do so well is feature female characters who take on as much or more abuse than their male counterparts. quentin tarantino has the most macho treatment of slavery ever put on film, at least since o," a of spaghetti western and racial revenge fantasy. as far-fetched and over-the-top as on many fronts, the plot is fueled by an attempt to rescue django's much tormented late wife, played by kerry washington, which makes for the film's most poignant moments but also its absurdly happy ending, as they blow up the plantation and write happily into the sunset.

in 12 years, it is the harassment inflicted on cassidy by her master and mistress that gets far more attention in the film than in solomon northrup's narrative. this is something that has been expanded on by the screenwriters. as you well know, it earned an .cademy award for the actress it is also one of the few films other than "roots" that has dramatized the separation of mothers from their children. you all remember the auctioning in which solomon himself is sold . separated from the two children. solomon tries to come for this woman who is paralyzed by grief. it also occurs to me that, as central as these fugitive narratives are in giving us a source,ice as a primary

on american slavery, how rare we see escape narratives as actually part of what has been translated into screen. even solomon northrup, as you know, is counted among the great narratives but is not involved in escape. his release came by legal and political machinations that happened. brad pitt sets all this in motion, of course. we never see any of it on screen, so the drama has to come from elsewhere. there is not much drama. a wagon comes up, papers are shown, he gets in the wagon, and drives off to freedom. so the only instances where we really get a slave escape are those involving women. one is that in "beloved." -- a, a flashback in which really harrowing scene in which in getting ready to cross the ohio river she actually gives

birth to the baby girl she will subsequently killed when the slave catchers are out to get her. id in the other, the one mentioned already, "the journey of august king," the entire narrative is driven by the evene, the manhunt, and so, typically hollywood, you get the name of the male protagonist, august king, rather 'san the slave named -- slave name, though it is much her journey as well. there are far fewer women that escape or escape alone than they were men, but we have seen very little of that translated into screen so far. one other observation, and then i will turn it over to my fellow panelists. i think it is curious that white women rule the roost in these early depictions of plantation slavery in the 1930's. "atty davis in "jezebel,

scarlet o'hara and her mother, the authority figures over the slaves. in "song of the south" it is an elderly widow. we have no men on the premise, no slave masters. they are absent or in the background. perhaps the most absurd example is you have a seven-year-old shirley temple who spends much of "the littlest rebel" frosting around adult -- bossing around adult slaves, which students find appalling or ludicrous, or both. only in the recent films do we have strong masters, cruel, sadistic, even demented and dominating. the michael fassbender character in "12 years a slave" and leonardo dicaprio in "django." in "uncleck to simon tom's cabin," which appeared a

year before "12 years a slave." salomon north america dedicated his narrative to. beecher stowe, so he was very familiar with her novel and the impact of her novel. it makes you wonder if some of the tropes, the separation of family, the abuse of slave women, and the cruel and sadistic owners, may have been influenced in some part. not to say he did not experience this, but it makes you wonder how many elements that come el a weekn stowe's nov before. so that is just an observation. i will leave it at that, and turn it over to catherine. [applause] >> thank you. i want to thank the organizers of this panel. for this opportunity to reflect. when i first began my work on the plantation south over 40 years ago, looking at the role of citation mistresses, one of i gontors insisted that

see, and accompanied me, to see the film "mandingo" in times square in 1975, the year that was a top 10 box office hit. the scholar later pointed out to me a billboard in times square featuring an escort service that -- so certainly, i was made aware in which the way films could influence attitudes. that produced in my first book a chapter called "foucault meets mandingo." launching my scholarly career was this topic, "mandingo" appearing in the midst of a revival of revisionist literature on slavery. it was followed by the publication of "roots," and after the 1976 publication, the 1977 miniseries on tv. this year, i supervised a thesis

on the impact of "roots," not just the novel and the film and the first miniseries, the phenomenon. he was drawn to this topic because of the current spate of films and media attention on the roles of slavery in the american past. if you are into such films as unchained," "lincoln," "12 years a slave," and the film "belle," these have not only raise the profile of slavery in american history, but the ability of scholars and academics not just to present their work and debate colleagues and students within the campus bubble, but to reach outside the halls of the academy and discussed this with a larger public audience. this, of course, intersects with larger questions that our role within society, about the crisis of the humanities, the frenzy among american academics to

prove that they are engaged in public service and dialogue. i certainly became aware of the way in which we academics are being invited to play a role in the reception of film. during the past few decades -- i'm thinking of the campaigns to woo civil war scholars to the mountain,"of "cold "the conspirator," and certainly one of the best gambits was to include scholars on screen as extras in "the killer angels." even if we are brought on board as advisors, we may still have critical and crucial contributions to the debate over screening slavery. many of my colleagues had strident objections to the presentation of blacks on screen in "lincoln," or interpretations of slavery by inclusion or omission of the african-american presence. i was very impressed with the film myself. i know it had limitations. i was nevertheless overwhelmed by its artistry, particularly its impact.

disclosure, i did do consulting, on costumes, mainly. i did meet with sally field, who was interested in someone more obsessed with mary lincoln than she was. i would have appreciated more complexity in the roles of the two african-americans with whom lincoln had the most contact during his years in the white house. but i thought the filmmakers did a powerful job in this portrait of racial dynamics within the walls of the executive mansion. as i discussed during an interview for "civil war times," though of course the link of our discussion was cut to fit the magazine, i remember defending tony kushner, who can certainly defend himself. but i was talking about the difficulty of a screenwriter squeezing everything in, which historians often don't take into account. i did a very brief stint trying to write for the very small screen, pitching and being hired

to write made-for-tv movies during the 1990's. what i learned was how collaborative the film business was, how challenging and impossible it is to protect any artistic vision, a lot less historical accuracy or even authenticity. but eric rightly pointed out that we face constraints in our own work as writers. we cannot complain to critics who take us to task, saying we had to leave things out. scenes fromnd camp the film that remains on the cutting room floor of the lincoln project do not, i know, excuse the absence of opportunities for exploring the african-american presence in washington during 1865. but i would say the arc of the film's narrative creates complications which most historians have never contemplated or finessed. many of us would like our manuscript to go -- how many of us would like our man is good to go through a focus group? if you think that is what a peer

reviewed many cigar, you are very naïve. it is a much more difficult ordeal. i have participated in roundtables and debates informally. discussions contributory seeking more and better interpretations of the complexities of race within our larger culture, as well as on screen. i must confess that social media has also had a powerful influence on me, when i found myself embedded in a debate over interpreting "django" in a conversation with two scholars. i was enlightened and enraged when they debated the merits of tarantino's film. i have written a review which appreciates the 2012 film "abraham lincoln, vampire hunter," taking it at face value. i found the 3-d distracting, but the narrative was compelling in

slaveholders being portrayed as bloodsuckers who drained the life out of enslaved persons to promote their unholy empire. [laughter] of course, i would have a special weakness for any film unionfantasizes about victory at gettysburg as a conurbation of two women, but he did not boast, as tarantino did, of the truth of his screen portrayal of slavery. on balance, i was not taken with karen tina's cinematic -- tarantino's cinematic mashup. for those of us who know "mandingo," it is a frame by frame freakish amount. someilm did include insights. german slave catcher, german-speaking conga by, couple -- concubine, couples reuniting. i could go on and on. but this would be measured against the phantasmagorical,

especially the torture from "the bridge on the river kwai" introduced into the antebellum landscape. but this landscape had a 400 and $5 million worldwide box office -- $425 million worldwide box office, compared to "daughters in the dust," widget $1.6 million in sales. we need to think about the ways in which multi-plex is a complex thing influencing the historical imagination. for many of us sitting in this room, the topic of slavery has been part of our scholarly work and imagination for decades. any occasion creepy kind of public engagement that the film "12 years a slave" hasn't entered -- has engendered? not with the academy, but with ordinary people in everyday life? those involved in lincoln studies, even we were taken by

surprise by the mass outpouring of public interest following daniel day-lewis' magisterial portrayal of the 16th president. i endlessly debated the opening scene in "lincoln," with that that was a great sleight of cinematic hand. i am a fan of the annex mystic moment when the really fantastic -- anachronistic moment when the really fantastic british actor repeats lincoln's words back to him from the gettysburg address. after an exchange listed from a meeting lincoln had with black soldiers in the executive mansion a year before. from the pages of the "new york times," to civil war history, accuracy, authenticity, value, over african-american issues has been widely discussed. beenlogosphere has igniting with controversy and

commentary discussing solomon northrup. but no one has been showcased like lupita nyong'o, who outshone even steve mcqueen. this is in some ways ironic payback. during the roundtable on the film, when an artist try to inject a note of dissonance, the overwhelming interpretation of northrup as hero, she was crowded out. the actress playing patsy not only won an oscar, she has earned a showcased to project a platform for discussing african-american women in the culture. her speech to the black hollywood award -- black women in hollywood awards ceremony, available on youtube, offers a wide and full examination of her talents. in a recent review of the film "belle," i commented on the which the actress playing the lead, and

18th-century mixed-race woman raised in the home of lord somerset in being this countryside, stares into the mirror, rubbing at the face as if she might scour her collar , an, a image -- color away image that remains long after the contrived ending. this echoes the feelings of countless girls and women. this week we mourn the loss of ruby dee, somebody who recognize the limitations and stereotypes in prose on -- impose on african-american actors, particularly women. she spent a lifetime struggling against boundaries. looking at her and nomadic career, she had a luminous role in "raisin in the sun," a remarkable performance in "roots," but she herself commented on the limitations imposed on her during her five-decade-long career. only nominated for an oscar in 2008 in "american gangster."

i remember her amazing interpretation of one of the wpa slave narratives. she was one of the dozen actors that contributed to the 2003 documentary "unchained memories." we can learn from her half-century of commitment to her craft that you contribute, you disseminate, you struggle with the media to put forward deep, complex and rotations. you may live to see a younger generation read rewards, and you might even learn enough -- lived long enough to see the honoring of those who came before you, or you yourself. yesterday's plenary discussed the big island of the -- beguilement of the archives. i'm finding myself a cinematic anti-pessimist. i have been teaching a course on american icons, moving my classroom from northern ireland to texas. i will find it interesting to

see how students respond. i've been struck by how students of american history, particularly abroad, look to filsms to help them understand the american past. rather than refuting this, is important to interrogate these tales, these myths, these legends. scholars understand that history and memory are interlocking circuits of dissemination. many of us have worked so hard to convey time and place. we have at our disposal incredible films, incredible, inspirational performances which speak powerfully. screen interpretations of slavery, like so many compelling willt of america's past, continue to blossom with or without the academy. so those of us committed to reaching a wider audience have to make ourselves accessible, despite reservations, and continue to pass the popcorn as well as judgment. thank you.

. [applause] >> we will talk about that later. [laughter] good afternoon. my opening remarks focus principally on the general contributions of "12 years a slave" in relation to other films. particularly about his portrayal of women in the film. steve mcqueen's significant contribution to slave themography through "12 years a slave" is not due to a singular step or the forward in screen depictions of slave lives, schematically, or in characterization. his version is not notable because it is the first to unsympathetically to

the most notorious american institution. that was, after all, the point of "roots" and "amistad." neither is "12 years a slave" destined to become a cinema classic because of the heart wrenching diction of patsy, the brutalized sex slave of her master. these characterizations have been graphically demonstrated in "roots." and likewise, crucial character elements of "12 years a slave," eliza and mistress shaw, are both found in "the courage to love." while many were stunned to see the accurate portrayal of frustration, violence, and cruelty of straight mistresses

-- slave mistresses, this was more than adequately rendered in "mandingo." strikinghimself, a positve image of black manhood, is a worthy protagonist, but so too were others. these important elements of african and african-american slave life and slavery have been part of tv and movies since at least the 1970's. you heard from john earlier. steve mcqueen's "12 years a slave" is a major contribution because it probably is the first hollywood production to incorporate some version of all these characters and scenarios of seven u.s. slavery in one film. we have not even discussed the depictst comes -- that slavery in other parts of the

atlantic world. theoes so, stamping institutions and benefactors with savage brutality, physical, psychological, and sexual, leaving no room for apologies or civilized, wrenching. "12 years a slave" is a masterwork, boasting stunning cinematography, a brilliant cast, and a gut wrenching story that is moving, enraging, and eventually uplifting. still, it is a flawed and incomplete masterwork. they should come as no surprise. how could one film counter a conference of view of a 250-year-old institution involving millions of persons, to say nothing of racial and general differences, who were to reside in an ever expanding and contracting landscape encompassing hundreds of thousands of miles? the predictable and understandable difficulty in

capturing in one film this staggering array of elements that comprise seven slave life, however, is not the only problem that undermines the film as a realistic or presentation of slavery. ridley,enwriters, john and the director, lack insight into the intricacies of the institution, leaving telltale signs, not only in the portrayals or lack of them of a slave community, slave resistance, slave labor, and the diverse roads of enslaved women, but also accurate context in the lives of free people of color. the solomon northrups of the free north. as well as looking at the farmer who was not very wealthy. that is, epps. as a result, the audience is left to believe mistakenly that the various plantations --

slaves on various plantations and farms on which solomon lived did not have close ties to one another or function as community units, that slave resistance was rare, and experience was largely confined to the actions of men, and that free men and women in the antebellum north where free and equal to white neighbors. the effect of these omissions in -- thism, important first person account of slavery demands, and catherine, you have served as a consultant for films. they did not use a historical consultant on the film at all. so yes, i will slam him. [laughter] solomon northrup's hot about obiographyut offers a rich palette of seven

slave womanhood. how well do steve mcqueen cast this? nothrup first encounters eliza and her children, who epitomized a loss so many slave women and their young endured through sale. eliza believes that her sexual relationship with her owner would protect her and her family, since he promised to free all of them. instead, she and her children are sold separately and she is not able to see them again. she mourned her loss is bitterly through the beginning of the saga, as well as in the film adaptation. in the movie version, eliza becomes a symbol of the devastating impact slavery had on african-american social life and identity. the director divorce -- deplores it as one response to slavery that some -- solomon rejects. she is able to move past her losses for the hopeful day of

freedom that solomon is determined to see again. the long-suffering slave mother is a reality of black bonded women had that has been -- womanhood that has been captured repeatedly on film. frame," "beloved," depictions assess personal and familiar devastation. screenwriters and directors have employed heart-wrenching scenes of the loss of slave children experienced by slave mothers and fathers. convey to- to their audiences the psychological cruelty of the institution, rivaling scenes of sadistic whipping such as that in "roots," and the whipping to death of the fugitive slave woman whose baby has to be

delivered postmortem. indeed, the only image of enslaved women in the post-"roots" year at that describes the beleaguered slave mother is that as the sexualized slave woman. roots,"rticularly in " "beloved," "the courage to scandal,"erican "queen."," and notably, the mother and concubine protagonists are often invested in one character, as in the case of eliza. or-victimces a malt image of slave woman had -- multiple-victim image of slave

woman had. northrop sees it only as a victim. "the queen" does not. in the other films that have hermetically taken on african-american -- dramatically taken on african-american slavery, the concubine remains the most important character. consider the roles of enslaved films from the 2012-2013 season. in "lincoln," the quadroon concubin ofe fqamed abolitionist thaddeus stevens, and another concubine, are the only women of color characters. virtually all of the enslaved women in clinton there and you know's -- quentin tarantino's film are concubines or prostitutes. although these portrayals of

slave women serve as much-needed theovery, he still adopts favorite trope as the black woman being sexually bound to powerful men. eliza is the film's only kind to bind. unlike solomon northrup's narrative, all the slave woman in mcqueen's film are concubines. patsy, andiza, harriet shaw. n the is some merit it inclusion of the stories in any realistic film about slavery. most girls and women, after all, where sexually harassed and abused. but this abuse did not define their lives. this point is one mcqueen fails to make, for he offers no additional images of bonds

norn's lives, multidimensional views of the concubines. oftenup realized they succeeded in having a life beyond the lash and their masters and mistresses. solomon emphasized their ability to experience joy inside the myriad forms of abuse they suffered, and resistance strategies. why doesn't mcqueen? thank you. [applause] >> thank you so much. now we have a little time, i think, if you all would like to discuss amongst yourselves or respond to elements of each other's comments? >> i didn't like "lincoln the vampire slayer," because while it does suggest slaveholders are

bloodsucking, it also only portrays slaves as vampire meat. there's nothing else they do. they are just kind of goofy and hang around and don't know they are about to be devoured. that's them. i thought that was ridiculous. even more ridiculous, that they were just going into the plantation home and having -- ending up being sucked to death. [laughter] sorry. though.nd loved it, and i absolutely hated it. [laughter] knowstill think it is -- i tony kushner was crushed to have this film, the year before his

film, because he wanted to be able to say that his film was the first film in 40 years to look at him again. if youthe same time, really believe that " abraham lincoln vampire hunter was about lincoln, i see it as a film about legends and fantasies. this young, eastern european director using the trope of american history. he hit something i found really enjoyable most of the time. i think part of it, even "abraham lincoln vampire hunter" got people discussing. say it the time, i gives us the opportunity, the npr moment where they say, is it accurate, inaccurate? of course movies are not meant to be accurate. is it authentic? is the director, and i'm glad you brought up steve mcqueen, if

the projector -- director projects a certain vision for his film and wants to defend it, we can debate it. concern withst steve mcqueen is i was living in the u.k. k and kept hearing him on interviews before the film came out. he would say, "it is a film about love." and i was sort of ok with that until i listened to the rest of the interview. it was not a film about northrup, he claimed. it was about patsy. i went, let's have a timeout. i don't think i'm addressing that as a scholar. i'm addressing that as a feminist. said hey, -- he also believed the role of the plant er was, he was the most evil

character in the film. he is quoted as saying that. because it is the banality of evil argument. however, both of those things allow us as scholars or commentators to come in and critique. so anything that allows that ability, thank you, filmmakers, for being so fantastic in your claims and so we can jump on and make claims these are not good. times whenere were a lot of films came out, and then no films for a while. do you think a bad film should not have been made? >> i do. >> you are from l.a. how can you think that? [laughter] >> that's how i see that. >> that is a business town. >> diva queen is an interesting person because he does a couple

things i thought were annoying. denies that t-- people have done indie films on slavery before. e panel with the actors and writer and all that, this is theatedly, first time a film like this has ever been made, the first time we are really looking at slavery. i said, what happened to all the others? he would completely deny that anyone has ever done anything worthwhile seeing until this film. second, he repeatedly said that no one except someone from britain could do this don't -- could do this film. woman not but a black born in the u.s. could play patsy, which is ridiculous as well. because he didn't do his research and did not have a historian work with them, he was a repeatedly that the story was

a love story. stop. it was not. he was crazy, he was brutal, on the frontier working his slaves hard to make it, and so he was sadistic. this doesn't have anything to do with love. he really slipped back in time in terms of looking at these relationships across the racial line when he sees it as a love relationship. though thankfully it does not come across that way in the film. , a piece about a woman who was tortured -- >> we all have historical examples. part of it, when yo put a film togetheru. i would like to say i did feel that his film was an artistic achievement. >> i do, too. >> it was amazing, and i will be

showing it to students. at the same time, when you mentioned the box office issue, i found many of my friends saying, can i go to see this, will it upset me too much? i said, you will be upset, you must go to see it. it was interesting people were questioning, when they will go see arnold and people like that. i will say on "django" that it was interesting in terms -- that samuel jackson did the most amazing job. who knew it was him when he first saw the film? but he was never singled out, never featured, because of the political incorrectness of the role he played. the politics, back to the rantino saidentin ta

there was no film before that had ever dealt with lavery the way you -- slavery the way he did, and he particularly went after "roots." he was in a way saying that that was a soap opera, and now i'm doing the real thing. all these allow us to debate it. not in terms of film, but in terms of popular perceptions. >> i don't think "django unchained" is about slavery. it is a fantasy. i could not find one grain of reality in the film that dealt with slavery at all. i look at it and laughed at it, but it was really funny and interesting. the costumes were nice. but for me it was not a film about slavery at all. i know tarantino was upset because historians said it was not about slavery, and he seemed to be success -- upset when steve mcqueen won for best picture. i do think, as i said, that "12 years a slave" is a masterwork.

without a doubt, it is an incredible film and achievement. but there's -- nothing's perfect. i look particularly at the way he deals with women, because in solomon northrup's narrative, if we go by the narrative, it is clear the way which patsy is depicted. he doesn't mention love. love is not part of it. he is talking about a man who ts to ownbody, who wabtan her soul, and feels he is right to do so and ask accordingly -- acts accordingly. the earlier films you talk about, john, i teach a class on slave narrative novel and film. i look at the early "uncle tom's cabin," for example, and some of the other ones.

but i have forgotten. i forgot that shirley temple -- the shirley temple version of it. i have seen "song of the south." i am going to include those when i teach in the fall. fantastic. >> it is interesting to me that they raise no hackles, nobody. think about the lost cause, the nostalgia of slavery being a southern thing by the early 20th century. it was an american thing, and hollywood had no qualms about treating them as classics and making them box office hits. there was some controversy with "goneh of a nation" and with the wind," but it was a drop in the bucket compared to the great acclaim and popularity that they enjoyed over the years. that is something. >> we keep doing "uncle tom's

cabin." it has been done at least three times. so i wonder now, given -- >> it has been done more. >> probably. iter "12 years a slave," would be interesting to see "uncle tom's cabin" done again. he does dedicate his book to harry beecher stowe, solomon northrup. and harriet beecher so defends her book in the document that comes the year after, she cites him, saying this is the red river in louisiana i am speaking about. there is that connective tissue between the two of them. >> another thing "12 years a slave" does, we see slaves working. >> yes, we do. --in the cotton fields >> you have got to see it. does anybody in the audience

know that film? it is a fabulous film. it was not a big box office film at all, but it is magnificent the. >> they are harvesting cotton in early april in "gone with the wind." [laughter] >> it is much more cinematic harveste it than plant it. >> when you see that edwin epps only has eight slaves, including solomon northrup, you see how the film is a little off. his house is on the national registry. >> is it on the red river in louisiana? >> i cannot pronounce it correctly. it's an that parish, but small tin-roofed house. so we lose this sense of why

epps is really pushing his slaves so hard. because he is on the frontier, on the sugar-cotton frontier. he has a few slaves. his first home is owned by his wife's uncle, so he's a man on the make, the yeoman farmer trying to become a planter. that's a really interesting part of the story that we miss. hasee him, the planter, he everything. people would say, therefore, whatever. guy whoiss out on this we do see as a crazy person, he's also pushing everyone beyond recognition of what is humanity to produce all this cotton so he can move up to where he is. >> we rarely see small slaveholders.

"journey of august king." >> i did not know that film. i will definitely see it. >> you can also see "the skin game," but make sure you see the correct version. if your students look up the french one, it will not work well. [laughter] losing tenure over that. [laughter] >> seems like this would be a good time to turn to the audience for questions. if you have a question, please raise your hand. yes? here comes the mic. >> from missouri state university. to pick up on your comment about small stakeholders -- slaveholders, one film i have not heard mentioned yet is "ride with the devil," ang lee's film. one of the most interesting characters is a spy. i was wondering your thoughts on

that are presentation of slavery. >> i have not seen that film, but i will go see it next week. devil?"th the >> i have taught it in northern ireland. they love it. so i have seen it. it is about why one is fighting the war. >> the missouri-kansas frontier. >> you have the ex-slave with his master on the battlefront. it's a very complicated, interesting tale. ang lee is telling it with his vision of the war, which is equally powerful. we can come up with 20 more great titles. "the beguiled," clint eastwood film. more women than men, like it

should be. there aren't enough parts for women, enough roles. you mention "ride with the devil." i'm always refracting through looking at the roles of women. i thought jewel was a particularly weak character. atften think, looking film, we want the kids to some -- come in. i have written about "belle," trying to get heaving bosoms and young girls in to see a mixed-race austen. >> you should see "pride and prejudice" and then "belle." >> much like the published makers -- publishers today.

what is the state of the business? what is its future? beis good for us to critical. making period is very expensive. we want to do a reality show set you southern scene, might say great. because a part of it is, anything that can be a debate -- my sons came up with an idea a few years ago that we should take plantation to hollywood and say real housewives of the old south. i know. at the same time, we joke. i still say, i am serious about it, the debate. the mel gibson film -- "the patriot." we all hate it.

at the same time, you were sitting there and why are you here? what is your interest? they saw a film. part of it is the get people excited about the past even if it is not our past, even if it is nobody's past. >> a vampire past. what constitutes a film about slavery? can you think of ride with the devil as a film about slavery? there are slaves in those films but they are very marginal and they are there almost to establish -- blackld mountain" had no voices. you see a black woman being carried, you see people on the road. i think that was a subconscious "cold mountain" view of the world. they are there but this is our film.

kidman seeing nicole taken refreshments to the slaves but she never gets passed the torch. that is one of the most ludicrous things. with his references the slavery and the attitudes of these other mountaineers heading off to war and the role of slaves and slave holders. it is an opportunity to do more within the film. as much as i like other parts of it. >> symbolic is ready interesting because pretty -- people deny the importance of slaves in their lives. >> of that is true. >> i know you've gone through millions of letters. i have only gone through thousands but i know you're gone through millions. >> i am older than you. >> she said that. we are the same age probably. you see they often do not think about their slaves. they have 250 slaves and there

is nothing about them in there. it is an interesting, you know, view or perspective of the way in which the slaveholders sometimes it's all their lives which is when they are writing to the loved ones, really not -- and their families -- not really concerned about the slaves who are doing all these things around them. sometimes you find them writing about them all the time -- >> the code. shey are also using their slave to tell stories. we come up with hundreds of great interesting stories. the film on. harriet jacob, tubman. where are they? when i was working in the 90's in hollywood, i was in a meeting and talking about these wonderful stories -- this was pre-"amistad."

talking about all these great stories. i talked about richard m. johnson. they kept pushing the story of his concubine and his daughters. would it? could it? should it? i could not bear because when you are so you were consulting, you go to meetings and in the film comes out. invite to look at it but my first view of "linconlln" was a premier at gettysburg. i just close my eyes and cross my fingers. you don't know -- at the same time, we have to keep trying. in the 1990's, i propose several films as black women as protagonists and i was told of the three actresses who could carry a television film. at that time, none of them -- their levels were not high enough. i introduced them to my discussion the way in which i

think african-american actresses have been marginalized. there have been people like lupita come forward and be so political in her speaking about his role. you mentioned -- i would like to mention how women think about sally hemmings. the portraits of why are women, african women being portrayed by non-american-born women. it is very interesting because i think our relationship -- the legacy of slavery is still very much a part of the business of american culture which is reflected in american film. what would make money? if slavery makes money, they would make films about slavery. if presidential biopic make money, they will be making biopics. look for van buren. >> do you remember this?

slave, a missouri slave. ended up killing her master and almost gets away with it. her black slave lover gets away with it. it leads to a trial in missouri in the late 1850's. it is a fascinating story. you remember the screenplay turned it into not her story, but the story of her lawyer. it was turned into an atticus finch story. the lawyer was the centerpiece, the hero. >> the film business is bank ability. you look at 12 years a slave and you did call it a hollywood film. without brad pitt playing a role in it, it would've not been bankable. that kind of thing can go on and

people have these wonderful films. the documentary filmmakers we know working in these areas -- get aand i know -- to filmgoing takes a decade of raising money. i know steven spielberg had his meeting with his earliest advisors in 2006 to make "lincoln." you see, if steven spielberg -- there was a writer strike but it had to do a lot with not just schedules, but it had to do with financing. >> liam neeson. >> liam neeson was reading the part and there were other people involved at that time. daniel day-lewis, i think inhabited that character. >> i want to say one more thing. it is really important when we look at these films that we also look at the film that was done early. the 1960's, 1970's, for

example, a lot of films on slavery were actually found on public television. the first 12 years a slave -- i saw on public tv. it was an early film. 1991. film.was a harriet tubman that is there as well. there are these films available to us that should be part of the discussion. >> definitely. >> question. from brownley university. i had a question that would build on something you just said and mentioned. i'm wondering if you could talk about the role medium plays. we are talking about film and i am wondering why there are not great representations of slavery

in television. i am thinking particularly of current trends for contemporary westerns. ," a show ieels" like. "deadwood" where former slaves appear, not until the third season. i am wondering why television does not lend itself given that we are in the supposedly is a not -- the renaissance of american tv with all of the money and attention going there. >> the hatfields and the mccoys, the biggest hit and made a lot of money. it did well commercially. i take your point. watching aller those made-for-tv movies, many of them dealing with the south. aliedom road" with mohamed written by howard fast. a lot was done -- during the 1970's, you had a lot

of these films. some of the portraits of the. period were very wrenching and amazing. i remember the first lynching on the small screen and thinking this is an amazing moment. at the same time, i think that when i was in the 1990's and i was often pitching stories, i remember very distinctly which shocked me being told that a story that we were trying to put across was too dangerous for television because it was black and white. it was not a concubine. it was not modern because anything, even in the 1990's, might offend southern advertisers. in some ways, think television is a medium that response so commercially and waits for --

five to 10 years later, it becomes ok. i have been out of the country for almost 10 years and i am noticing it in the language on television where it is now acceptable. wait, they can say that on tv? >> on the other hand, used to be to get anything made with black characters this to work late -- historically had to be on television. thinking about my angelou's -- maya angelou's film. it would not carry a white audience. the vernon johnson story would not have been done as a feature film. tv was a backup where you could afford to do things like that. "roots." the last episode of the first series of "roots" had more viewership than any other miniseries period. that was really the moment.

you have to think about the social -- the time in which it was done. people wanted to know more about african-american history. they wanted more ability to talk that they way didn't have to read 10 books about it or whatever. people look at those films and it was really a moment as was the history itself in which there was a lot of discourse across the racial divide. everyone was talking about various things. which ise have a time very odd in terms it is represented in television. we can something like "scandals" but we cannot have a film about matt turner. it is really interesting that you can have this black woman in the white house who in many ways is running the white house, you know. you know, the dream of sally

hemming. you cannot have, you cannot have a film about matt turner. on a small screen for pbs. are in this on the place politically and socially with regard to race that i wouldn't know whether or not given the statement you gave about the large-screen, whether or not the small screen produces or would want to take on doing those kinds of films because often times the small screen does take the cue from the large-screen or vice versa. >> and they were going to make a miniseries about the children of pride which was derailed. was shown the wind" in the first time on television in the fall of 1976 in november, not on thanksgiving weekend, but another weekend.

showings are still in the top 10 of broadcast on the instance. episode, waslast higher. in terms of the dialogue and popular culture, you had gone with the wind rearing up again, cultural icon and "roots" coming along and replacing it and the children of pride scuttles back in into a manuscript. when it we going to get the many more complex stories to tell the both sides so we don't have the all master and, as we know, the mistresses were evil because we want all these films and we see their roles. there is not any orchards that is not very -- portraits when it is not stereotyped. that is why "mandingo" has continuing power because it is taking gone with the wind and making it a grand, melodramatic saga.

>> i had to go back and see "mandingo" because i didn't see it since the 1970's. added that get on television? >> we get letters from parents about the tuition they pay. know we are all interested in scholars. we want filmmakers to be interested enough. i have a hunch that the inmmakers, they arei fact interested. they want you as a consultant because they wanted to be authentic. they wanted to be real. when i watch a lot of these films, i am struck that they have a strange engagement but it is always a little bit off. nnifer's film, it seems a good damaged argument. when i watch "django," i'm like

this is agency. it is not what i meant. some kind of strange way, there is something going on in popular culture that has busted open a lot of the way we have written history. it is about breaking up a kind of cannon of black politics where you have two traditions, one is immigration and one is revolutionary or what have you. it came to me in james mcbride's portraysre he frederick douglass as a buffoon. we watch these things -- it is what makes it feeling like it is busting a cannon opened. in some ways, maybe that is a good thing but there was something about this that is really disturbing. hear you talk about

-- do you feel like -- how does it relate to the way we write history? >> it is interesting you mention mcbride's novel. that won the national book award this past year. i had a number of former students reading it and getting in touch. it has been auctioned. it may be the next film we have. it is a 12-year-old boy disguised as a girl taken in by john brown in kansas and follows them all the way through. we see harpers ferry and stephen eyes of hisugh the 12-year-old boy. will smith's son is going to play it on the screen. it will be done. it is interesting what they choose to auction. it is a parody of work that looks like it will more of the unchained."gnngo

it will be interesting to see what they do. >> i hate to disagree but i if we brought filmmakers and to hear our panel, to hear people talk, to hear their think there isu a lot of disagreement among people? i am saying that seriously. you,the phone makers call they do not want that is derogatory -- the history. they will reject the caller -- the scholar dennis and give them what they want. engagingant -- they in their own terms. >> of someone like steve mcqueen has this idea, he put it all together. that as a narrative and story. he has his ideas, his scenes. it is struck powerfully by spielberg telling the historians

what he saw. was it possible, could it be? what was the weather at the gettysburg address? could the flag have been flying? several hundred page screenplay gets shrunk down to a few months. there are ways. what is the question? is orary lincoln wear th that? she was actually wearing black, she was in mouring. the larger authenticity of the film was to betray or as -- shopaholic,as a someone difficult. she was not accurate. if i was someone who said she must wear the black otherwise she was inaccurate, i think -- i am trying to give you concrete examples. quite sohink it is mean-spirited that it don't want

to. but i am saying most people theirperiod pieces have idea in mind, there's ripped -- their script. can you pick the three things we have to eliminate or change? many other-- filmmakers are amazing the way they absorb and they consider they are taking a course. i am very grateful that someone like tony did read so widely and was able to bring lincoln to life through words that i think was listening into the people i knew. he was interpreting in ways i did not know. i think that is the sign of a gift for most of us do not have in our writing and we should try to admire these moments. at the beginning of 12 years a slave, the opening scene, i have

had more conversations about it. that someone can make a film so powerfully open about gender, about race, about slavery, yet, who is going to tell you what it is about? what i amagain at -- trying to get at is that it can be the power of the work of art and sometimes it is very deliberate to not have it reflect good historical practice, but to be more complex, more open-ended, and maybe even just plain wrong like when in "glory" when you have someone slashing away at watermelons. really? in massachusetts, in april? the slicing of the watermelons by the leader of that american troops has a larger meeting. sometimes we have to let these people have their fantasies

except for the vampires. is a really excellent question because i think that the filmmakers i have met and the ones that write these scripts are really smart people. they're really quite intentional and, very intelligent. they are intelligent and a way that they've been trained differently than the way we have so that they are interested in the impact visually and what thele hear and overarching story or theme or thesis they want to put forward. whenever they calm to his -- to come to historians, it is not while they are writing the book, it is already what they worked out in their mind with the opening single look like and the rest of it. and the story holds together well for them what they would like to portray. the other side is working with the producers to find out whether or not they are going to finance it.

you have to take into consideration what the producers want to see in the film, too. they are very collaborative. we are only one piece, a small piece of the collaboration because they do come in with this. or notto know whether steve mcqueen actually shot the opening sequence to 12 years a slave which was horrific because nowhere in -- the woman's using it to masturbate herself. that is totally in someone's imagination but i knew note -- i do know most opening sequences are not filmed by the director. they're usually companies that only do opening scenes for them and closing scenes for them. the usages do the titles and the usage of the credits but now they actually do the opening sequence. of course, the director have to say ok with it and the producer.

himself if he actually shot that sequence because usually the opening sequences are no longer shot by the director. >> surely, he had to approve it. >> he had to check it off. i wonder if that is something he, in terms of thinking about how the film will open, that he will open it in this way or getting the was audience drawn in. scene likeout the this, they had to get approval for doing this. they no longer actually have complete control over the opening sequence. >> it seems like one advantage steve mcqueen had is that he is drawing entirely on a single source, single narrative, single voice, single perspective in which he lifts cold things out of it. stevenkable

spielberg drawn more complex, multidimensional issues and ofnts where the input historians would matter more, i wonder, either to steve spielberg or any filmmaker. >> i know steve mcqueen is really visually driven. people think about his other "shamem"nger" and ," they talk about him as a visual artist. i think spielberg is more interested in accuracy than other directors. he is, in some ways, much more like a historian and the way in depicthe decides to something on screen that i think steve mcqueen is. he is also about the art of making a visually stunning film, too, or mostly along with an

important story. >> recently,'s your bird was given an award about -- recently, spielberg was given an award because this film was storytelling, history. i know the teaching and showing been the focushas of a lot of debate, i point out that i remember taking my younger son to see it. the moment in the film where it is taken from the case -- >> he threw them overboard. >> it is one of the most visually powerful, arresting scenes. when i went to the international museum of slavery in liverpool, they had their own version of that. it is something that -- we deal in words and we deal with telling stories, but it is

something that we now in the 21st century have to grapple with. is a going to be streaming? how are we going to feel? i think we need to bring both our students and public to understand that stories can be told in many different dimensions. i think the power of some of these scenes -- maybe we can deal with clips rather than the full film. we can deal with a powerful medium of historical film. that is something that could bring slavery to a modern audience. >> that seems like an excellent place to conclude. thank you all so much for coming and thank you very much to our panelists for their very thoughtful and insightful comments. [applause]

>> of the civil war eras here every saturday at 6:00 and 10 p.m. eastern time. to watch more of the programming any time, go to our website. you are watching american history tv all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3. >> here is a great read. is at's latest book, sun eight, collection of stories from some the nation's most influential people over the past 25 years. >> i was knew there was a risk in the bohemian. i decided to take it because whether it is an illusion or not, i do not think it is. it helped my concentration. it stop me from being bored, stop other people from being boring to some extent. it would keep me awake. it would prolong the conversation to enhance the moment. if i was asked what i do it again -- the answer is probably

yes. i probably would've quit earlier. it is easy for me to say, nothing nice for my children to hear. the truth is, it will be hipper kabul for me to say no, i would never touch the stuff because i did know. >> the soviet union and the soviet system in use in europe contained scenes of its own destruction. many of the problems we saw began at the very beginning. attempts tot the control all institutions and control all parts of the economy and political life and social life. one of the problem is when you do that, when you try to control everything, you create opposition and potential dissidents everywhere. if you tell all artists they have to paint the same way and one artist says i do not want to paint that way, you have just made him into a political dissident. if you want to subsidize housing in this country --

populace agrees it is something we should subsidize, put it on the balance sheet. make a clear and make it evident and make everybody aware of how much it is costing. when you deliver it through these third-party enterprises, fannie mae and freddie mac, when you deliver the subsidies through a public company with private shareholders and executives who can extract a lot of that subsidy for themselves, that is not a very good way of subsidizing homeownership. collects -- >> christopher hitchens, a few of the 41 engaging stories and c-span2 sundays at eight, now available at your favorite bookseller. >> founded in 1999, the united states army heritage education center is part of the u.s. army war college in carlisle, pennsylvania and is supported by the private nonprofit army heritage center foundation. the center is a primary research