on to write a good movie about it. and i might mention, too, when i first started doing research on the negro leagues, going back tk the early '80s. i have just seen so many things change. when i man first started doing d research, people said, oh, you d won't find photographs.won't fi and, of course, after i found 600 of them -- actually, i founl close to 1,000. 600 in the book. it was the negro baseball leagues, a photographic history, nobody believed you could find pictures anymore.ic histo i killed that whole myth.nd and now i'm also trying to popularize the fact that the monarchs and these teams in thea negro leagues played in all these cities and there's so many great story that is could be told. hopefully i'd like to see it in my lifetime as well.it >> thank you.>> thank i had a coach and a teacher when i was in junior high that playeh early days of pro football, and they got paid if they got in the

game. they had to get themselves to d the game and t they had to buy their uniforms.y t are you aware of how the players got paid? >> oh, sure. the fortunate thing if you were playing for the kansas city monarchs, you are essentially y playing for the new york yankees of the negro league.wilkin so wilkinson always paid his players. i have run into players over to years who told me that they're t still waiting for their check from a game they played in 1928. but that wasn't the case with wilkinson. and rue foster as well. he kept immaculate records.at'se players made money playing in those games.re those one of the reasons the bea monarchs were so successful -- bullet rogan was there until he retired. newt allen was there from 1922 to 1946. the players came and they loved playing for j.l. wilkinson, and

they got paid well, and so theyo stayed. money, butorked fheir they got paid well, and so -- d but, yeah, these weren't pickups games. if they came toe abilene, theres going to be a promoter, and this promoter knew that, you know, we're going to get "x" amount of the gate and i have to pay theht monarchs 65%. a so they knew how to arouse the public to get people to come to the game. that's how wilkinson made the money. it was tough going for some as e people depending on the owner, but wilkinson paid his players well. >> this kind of ties in with that question, but when you showed a couple shots, one of the records where they played, it looked like you had maybe h, eight, nine games in a row where they played, days in a row, and also you showed the picture of n the town team, barnstorming the town team with the monarchs. unless i miscounted, it looked s like tenco guys.s. typically how many traveled on i the team and were they that hat limited on players? >> i know in 1929 they had to

cut their rosters down, and they carried 13 players.carrie so you could play over 100 games with 13 players. so you needed a guy like bullet rogan who could play the the sa could pitch.me so he was like two players in one. so they could carry a smaller roster like that and still playe it just depends. sometimes some of the players might not have gotten into the t picture but they used to carry about 15 players. as a matter of fact, that yers. picture was taken right before fair. i might mention, too, when the monarchs were supposed to come here in 1927 it was for something that got rained out. i know they played a lot of gota fairs and events like that whic helped to draw people to the fair.

>> given the discrimination of the day where they would stay when they would tour areas likey this. w would they stay on the bus or could they get accommodations? >> accommodations could be tough. also eating could be tough.i i interviewed one player and asked him what he remembered the best about barnstorming and he said hunger. you had to take your lunch.l up you couldn't just pull up at a mcdonald's or a restaurant and go in and get your food. they had to go around to the o back of the building to get their food.. wilkinson, to his credit, some i places wouldn't feed the monarchs so he wouldn't eat there either. so he tried to fight for good treatment for his players. so, it was tough. if they were playing where they could come and play the game ang get back to kansas city the same day, that's what they did.hey if they are out and say they are not able to stay there, there rm were a number of rooming houses-

as a matter of fact there was wy lady i know she was from south - dakota, african-american lady, t and later moved to kansas city. and she said that the only blace people that she saw from outside her community were musicians, circus people and baseball players because those were the h only ones that came in and roomed with them.d she knew lots of circus and w ab musicians and athletes but boari didn't know anybody else. boardinghouses would take up thp slack and some places they woulk have, you know, some of the larger cities they would have black-owned hotels.t but out in this part of the country, if they played in, you know, if they played in, say, sioux falls, south dakota, or omaha and they could get back the same day, they came back tht same day. i one thing i may mention they played almost every single day. so they were on that bus all the time.'ll one last thing i'll mention there was a lady she was marrieo to a ball player who played for the memphis red sox.wi his name was larry brown and

this was his wife and i interviewed her.n she married him and then went sn with the team on the trip. t and she was on the bus with thew team and she said we were gone for a month and we stayed in a hotel two times. >> thank you. most of us know that the first black player that went to the major leagues was not 100% 100% chosen on talent alone.e. in your research and what you look at, would that same person be chosen by you, or would chon somebody else have been chosen, just in retrospect? >> in retrospect, somebody else probably would have been chosen. >> are you going to tell us who? >> here is the reason why i sayr that. jackie robinson was chosen during world war ii. the best african-american baseball players were in the ern war. they weren't even here. ñ players.ç bett i can't deny one thing.can't

he was an excellent choice when you look back on it.you lo i mean, you couldn't get aok better choice.bett i know he needed someone er comfortable with playing with white players. that was going to be a completely new environment. jackie had that. funny thing is, willy brown becomes the third player. i mentioned he left the st. louis browns and never came back. one of the reasons is because he wasn't like jackie. and i interviewed his wife and his wife said willie brown did pretty much what he always did. one of the things, he complained. st. when he got to the st. louis l browns, he complained because hr used a 40-ounce bat and their players were playing with 32. he said i don't have bats. how do you play with 32-ounce bats? where's your real bats?? that didn't make him too popular. he hit a home run with a 32. the other thing was when he got to the hotel, he would go out at night. ever he liked to take a drink every e

now and then. his wife said, they are watching you. he couldn't be anybody but himself. even though he was a great ballplayer, he probably wasn't the best pick and the best fit. i could think of some other her people. you know, even satchel paige. he was getting older. there were a lot of great players who ended up coming up later. y%ility coming up. they wanted older players. there were great older players around. roy campanella who came up with the dodgers, he would have beend an excellent choice. later on he was. i might mention one thing th that -- i could probably name a half a dozen who would have been good players who came up later.c interesting thing about jackie robinson, the brooklyn dodgers actually stole jackie robinson from the monarchs. they never compensated the monarchs at all. wilkinson who owned the team and

tom baird who had part ownershi ownership, they could not say d anything because they would be e looked upon as holding the black player back if they were to wee argue this debate about why ut y didn't you compensate us for or this player. this is a business. so they didn't say anything. quietly, they had their own boycott.24ñ÷their ow and you would notice no kansas city monarch ever plays for ther brooklyn dodgers again. that's the way they boycotted. brooklyn dodgers had many great players, but they didn't have guys who came from the kansas city monarchs. the monarchs sent more players to the big leagues than any other negro league team. >> do you have any record of anthony kansas in the monarchs? >> sure. >> my dad played for anthony

boosters against the monarchs about 90 years ago, i think. >> okay.re's som >> if there's some way you could -- i'd really appreciate t it. it's been a long time since i even knew about.>> i my dad's been gone 50 years. thanks. anth >> i tell you what. they did play anthony kansas.mid as i was coming down the freeway today, i'm driving past all these places that i know the monarchs appeared. i know they played at ft. rileyn at junction city.y, they were at manhattan, clay center. i can keep on going out west. practically any city that was a city had a baseball team, and they had a kansas league that d they would play in. the monarchs came and played all of those cities. if not one year, different years. i would do research. i will get your name. i will be happy to supply that information.

>> about 1959, satchel spent the summer in celina and pitched for the salina blue jays. unfortunately, we still, as a team, suffered under the discrimination scenarios. they didn't spend many nights overnight. travele but they traveled by bus. of course, after the game likedd to eat somewhere. there were many times -- the -- time i remember was in mcpherson where they told satchel that he would have to come in the back door if he was going to eat andc the whole team got up and left.n i commend the manager and sponsor for that.i i was fortunate enough to be the bat boy. lot i got to see a lot of satchel and the other players. as late as 1959, the black 195 ballplayers were still suffering under that discrimination scenario. >> that's an incident. i appreciate that comment.

you would enjoy this. i was in nevada last sunday, ana there was a ballplayer who playd played for the mcpherson team who played against satchel he t paige. he wasm actually on the team wh him as well. t he mentioned the 1959 as well. he had great stories. satchel page, you know -- let me put it this way. kansas had its own unique form of racism. i know a little bit about ab boxing. boxing was considered a contacta sport. so until 1938, i think it was 1938 was the first year that irt they would let black amateur lt boxers fight white amateur boxers in kansas.. they could go to missouri whit and fight in the golden gloves,h but the kansas black fighters couldn't fight the white fighters in kansas to qualify. they had to fight other black t players -- black fighters in kansas.sketba in certain sports, they had higl

school rules. they considered basketball a contact sport. so many black schools couldn't play against white schools in basketball because those were th some of the rules.ere slowly, those rules have ve disappeared. but it was pretty tough times. there was a gentleman by the mef name of -- actually, he has -- there's two players. he has a couple of grandsons. i will recall his name in a minute. he played for the colorado springs sky sox. colhe tol he told me the story of -- his name was sam harriston. that's what his name was. sam told me when he played for the sky sox, he had to go in the back.ld go he would go in the back of the n restaurant and where the cooks w were.black all the cooks were black.uld so he would go back there and h the players would go in the the front. so they are sitting out in the restaurant and pay $5 and get their meal, whatever it was.prob probably didn't cost $5 back then. and he was in the back.he w so he was eating twice as much food.fo when he would leave, they woulde

give him a to-go sack. h so he would leave, and he wouldl tell me stories about that for night, his teammates say, hey, what did your people put in thea sack for you? only they were hungry again.you he was the only one with a sack. you make the best out of a bad situation.ation. that's what some of the players did. sam harriston, of course, has as his -- he had two sons that tht played in the big leagues and ed now he has two grandsons that played in the big leagues.nd i guess he did pretty good. >> was the barnstorming egro te something all the negro league ? teams did or just the monarchs, what they wanted to do? >> all the teams tried. i will put it that way. you could see it was a very lucrative in the money. had you to build a tradition. two of the greatest barnstorming teams were the

homestead grays and the kansas a city monarchs. the monarchs for the most part, they tied up kansas, nebraska, parts of colorado, arkansas. they pretty much dominated thatp area. that was the team. and then there was one great white barnstorming team which the house of david.ba what's interesting, the house of david was booked by tom baird. and ray aldoan.ns they also booked the kansas city monarchs. they had a nice little scheme going. they would bring the house of david would come in and play the local team and pretty much beath them.emwel they had great players as well. then the monarchs would come thy through. they would play the local team. the same people are booking them.he p they would beat the local team. so now the people realize, the house of david and the monarchs are good teams.al look what they did to our local team. then they would turn around andi book a game, the monarchs against the house of david and get three dates out of the sameo city.

they did this all over the country. barnstorming was -- it was igen intelligent move from the money side. the teams who barnstormed the best survived the longest. >> if we don't have any additional questions, phil willl be available to sign copies of one of his books. we just want to thank phil again for coming out to abilene. thank you, phil. >> thank you. american history tv normally airs on the weekends. but with congress on recess throughout august, we're featuring highlights throughout the week. coming up, a discussion on race and sports with hall of famers bill russell and jim brown. then the history of competsative walking and its popularity in the late 19th century. later, another look at the kansas city monarchs and baseball's negro leagues. tonight, american history tv

explores the overland campaign, a series of major battles that took place in virginia in 1864 between union forces under ulysses s. grant and confederates led by robert e. lee. watch the 150th anniversary commemoration ceremonies marking the beginning and conclusion of the overland campaign as well as a look at the battle of cold harbor, the campaign's final major conflict. that's all tonight at 8:00 eastern here on c-span3. next, hall of fame basketball player bill russell and hall of fame football player jim brown discuss racial equality in professional sports and their struggles for respect throughout their careers. they also talked about the role of african-americans in college and professional sports today. this hour long panel was part of thelandon b. johnson we presidential library's civil rights summit.

>> good afternoon. my name is mike cramer. i'm the director of the texas a program in sports and media here at the university of texas.robab we are pleased to partner again with the lbj library and museum. this is probably about our fifth event that we've partnered at or least on a piece of a program with them. cal today's conversation is part of our series on sports and society that was founded by one of the distinguished alums. kalth kathy mcgar, who we're pleased to partner with on many occasions. we also have an interesting timing of this today. yesterday, one of our participants, dr. harry edwards who i'm going to introduce in ae moment, we formally announced that we have established a

permanent lecture at the university of texas called the dr. harry edwards lecture on ] sports in society.histo we couldn't possibly find a dr. better person in the history ofh sports and civil rights than drt harry edwards. and he was gracious enough to lend his name to that lecture. we expect we will have several presentations under that name in the coming years. s today is -- we have a conversation that's going to occur on the area of sports andy civil rights.ver i've been a part of many panels and many presentations over thee years. normally, you try and find the best panelists and the best people to make that presentation. rarely do you have the people, the top people who are get presenting.

in other words, if you had to by pick one, two and three, rarely do you get one, two and three.cl today we are fortunate that we have probably the three most il important people in the civil rights sports and society and d sports and civil rights movemene in the last 50 years.roud we are ecstatic, pleased, proud that we can present them and have a conversation with them b with you today. thre let me say that again. we have here probably the top three people in this area in the last 50 years. [ applause ] so let me get on with the program. it's them you are here to see.mb i'd like to introduce to you dr. harry edwards, mr. bill russellu mr. jim brown. [ applause ]

take it away. be >> thank you very much. it's a real pleasure to be here with two men that i have known for about the last 45 or 50 years. if you hear a touch of respect and admiration and affection in my voice during the course of this conversation, you have me correctly. i want to begin by stating that there have been four athletes over the last half of the 20th s century who have been utterly e transformative. the first, of course, is the immortal jackie robinson.

[ applause ] the second is the indomitable mr. bill russell. [ applause ] the third is the incomparable mr. jim brown. [ applause ] and the fourth is the absolutely unconquerable miss billie jean king. rac i want to focus on the struggle at the interface of race, sport, and society. read in preparing for this irst conversation, i went back and read jim brown and bill a russell's first two books. jim brown's "off my chest and o out of bounds" and bill r are russell's "goal for glory and second win." i think that those are four d po

books that should be required reading for all athletes entering college and professional sports today and because they say so much about where we have come from and the sacrifices that were made in order for them to be where they are today. the things that stuck with me about those books and reading ar philosophies, the perspectives,n rs. forth of jim and bill have stood up over the last 50 years. te]-i the second thing is that they were superstar athletes whether they stood up. they weren't a bunch of guys whs retired and so forth. they were superstar athletes when they stood up and spoke out. the third thing that struck me o was that they never were willing to exchange white racism for black orthodoxy. they were always about the people. me and their argument was, and that i .

as a man am part of the people and i insist on being respectede as such throughout that -- their books. and then the fourth thing that really blew me away and that i t find amazing to this day is how2 young they were.all we are talking about 22, 23, 24ç a what we call today a young tionf adult.n aware of consigning an entire generation of people to sand bof citizenship. they were speaking out at 24 exercold when this happened. so i would like, first of all, to go back to that time and i'm going to exercise my prerogatives as the only 72-year-old up here and call you young men by your first names. and ask about what took you to that place? how did you end up at that place? t why don't we start, jim, with you in terms of this. o how do you end up in that place at 23, 24 years old?

>> doc, i was very fortunate to have a great mother, no father. went to a high school with a great coach. ed walsh a great mentor, kenny malloy and they were impeccable from the standpoint of advocating education, self-determination.us and i had an example of people that were really good. there was tremendous was - discrimination in this country u at the time.f i it was told to me that i could bow down and do a little dance.l i don't know if you know what n that means. but i said, i don't really dance. i just prefer to be a man. an american citizen. righ and i pay my taxes. i want my rights.re wh so freedom, equality and justice

is what i pursued, and i pursuea it at all cost because nothing so popularity. >> man, i knew that my life's work would be to help others. so that's what you have here. >> bill, what took you down that path that you took? and you stated, i have never been one to pursue being liked. from day one, i was about being respected. what took you down that path at 23, 24 years old?my >> well, i guess it started whei i was born.as my my mother and father, the first thing i knew about life was my mother and father loved me. the and my mother -- i was born in

the segregated south in the loui 1930s in louisiana.si my mother -- our first conversation, she said to me, there's nobody on this planet any better than you.ody o also, there's nobody on this be planet that you are better than them. and so i grew up with confidence that i was okay. and my mother and father always treated each other with respecto and so when i went out into the world, that's the way i thought it was supposed to be. >> okay. and did everything you could toe

change it to make that way when it wasn't? >> huh?s >> did everything to make it that way when it wasn't? yard, >> my mother told me when i was young, she says to me one day, ba for the first time. she had kept me in the backyarde all the time. people she said, the reason i want you to play in the front yard is people will walk by and they hs will say things to you, good orr bad, but it has nothing to do with you. it has to do with them and theiu perspective. so you play and have fun. don't worry about that. >> okay.that >> so when i grew up, i encountered things.

i knew i was okay. but moving ahead, a few years ago i met nelson mandela.rsatio. we had a brief conversation. and i asked him how he could bee such a good person of all the things that he had encountered. and he said, if i had reacted the way they predicted that i would act, then they were right. but he said, i am a mandela and that's where i get my philosophy from is that the opposite of is

love is not hate. the opposite of love is and indifference. and so the only way that humans. can evolve is they have to care about each other.- >> that was evident throughout a number of your chapters in your book. let me ask you -- ask you this. jim, in particular, i was looking at a book entitled "the 100 most important people in american sports" and quite fittingly billie jean king is on the cover. there was a statement that you made early on in one of your earliest books where you statedo

that you had never been -- ther. had never been a time when you were not conscious of the civil rights movement. you stated, i was very conscious of the civil rights movement and very active in whas i called the movement for po dignity, equality and justice.un it superseded my interest in sports. doing. sports gave me an opportunity to help the cause. and that is what i dedicated myself to doing.ogñç movem now, i know that you supported the civil rights movement.elopmt but you were ahead of the civil rights movement in terms of your focus on economic development.oc what led you to move beyond ecn simple desegregation to economii development, to starting the cee black economic union, setting up these offices all over the country, traveling through the bu professional athletes talking t, small -- black small business people in georgia, alabama, tennessee? i what led you to that sense that that was the direction things

had to go into?.; >> well, it was the understanding that people had to get off of their butts. regardless of what the labor as they could to deliver themselves. we couldn't depend on a government or corporate americaa or anyone. so i was always a person that advocated economic development because america is a capitalist society. it's based on economics. if you don't use economics in your community, your community will never grow.tha the jewish community in this ad country and the world has proven that collectively you can be a c minority and apply the right principles and emancipate yourself. sa

community had to apply itself, f have the greatest community, the safest communities and probably. young mbas in the country, spencer jordan was my number one guy, graduated harvard, magna cum laude and i got the top black athletes in the country and i put them together and we got a grant from the ford foundation of over a million dollars at the time and we had a fund that any young black entrepreneur could come and make that loan and get the benefit of the knowledge of our national business planning team. and so that was the way i felt we could gain equality could gain equality quicker thay doing anything else. stand. >> you know, i want people to really understand. we're talking about -- think of

a 26, 25, 27-year-old athlete today that would have that kindd of insight and vision. sense that's how far ahead you were ic terms of that situation. busine it astounds me even now.g bill, you, too, had a sense of the necessity of economic electi development, not only did you have your own business here, but long before globalization came into the language, you had already set up relationships in west africa and were talking about how we needed to connect with african countries and haven mutual economic development and so forth. you also went into the south. i mean, two months after the assassination, i know you went down to mississippi. it was a frightening time and held integrated basketball clinics in mississippi two

months after medger edwards' death.eep of course, your celtic teammates said, just keep a low profile.,w but you went down and held those clinics. of while you were down there, you , talked to young people about the necessity of completing school, becoming economically viable and so forth. >> well, most of the people, as i could see, were economically deprived.where i felt that as one of the places where you can purchase equalitya if you have what started out as a charity, you could make it a

force. i know i was in boston. and there was a great many questions about why i would go to africa. you. people told me, africans don't e like you. well, the people that were [lauh telling me that didn't like me. [ laughter ] so i wanted to go and see for myself. me okay?g some guy came to me and he says, what do you know about africa?e you don't know anything about them. they are not like you. you got no business doing that. so i said, you know, i have this family that are friends of mine.

they have been accused of supporting the irish revolution. the family was the kennedys. in fact, i'm old enough that i e remember meeting and sitting and talking with rose kennedy.o and i said, well, if it's t all right for them, go back where their ancestors came from, why isn't that all right for me to go back where i think my ancestors came from? so it was all about -- see, i never, ever considered myself as a leader or anything like that. all i did was -- one thing i wanted to make sure that i never did anything that my father

would be ashamed of. so the things i did, for i w example, i coached the boston celtics. i was the player coach of the hy boston celtics. so they said, you are the first black coach in the nba. in fact, you are the first black coach manager in baseball, football and basketball in the o major leagues. what about that? and i said to them, if red had ever said to me, this is a great social experience -- experiment, i would have nothing to do witho it. the only reason i would do it, because i'm convinced that i'm the best person for the job. [ applause ]

so where i considered trying to do everything in my life based on merit. and i expected all of the people i surround myself with. >> to do the same? >> jim and i have known each e other since college.layer nd he used to tell me all the time that he was a better basketball player than i was anyway. >> averaged 38 points a game. >> and i said, jim, no. [ laughter ] in fact i said to him one time, i said, you know, i think you are one of the greatest

athletes, if not the greatest athlete of the 20th century. but leave basketball alone. [ laughter ] jim saw and i supported, if you don't have any wherewithal to exercise influence, then you will never succeed. in exercising influence. and i tried to live a life that would exercise influence. i personally am not interested in that.

i'm just interested in -- i raise my kids. and i always let them know that i love them. i think that's one of the key things about raising kids. my daughter -- i have to fight off her telling me what to do now. she graduated from harvard law school. the minute she gets a degree from harvard, she knows everything. so i just try to see where things are needed, recognize that things are needed and try to put myself in a place where i can make a difference.

>> let's jump to the present. where did the train leave the track? where are the bill russells? where are the jim browns? i know we don't expect people to do things the same way they were done in the '60s, since you and jim didn't do things the same way jackie robinson did or jesse owens or joe lewis did. how did we come to a place where we have the level of uninvolvement, apathy, a lack of concern about the broader issues that you speak of now? >> you mentioned jackie robinson. i met him a couple times. when he died, i got a call from rachel robinson.

she said that she wanted me to be a pallbearer at his funeral. and i said, that's an overwhelming honor. why me? she said, you were one of jackie's favorite athletes. and i took that to say jackie had done a tremendous thing for us. he was the first black to play baseball, but he was never a pushover. and he took us to a place that opening up this whole world for us. but i was not going to revisit that place. i wanted to take it to the next step. >> which you most certainly did.

>> and so when red asked me -- he said, he's retiring. i went back to my coach. he said i'm retiring. i got to find a coach to replace me. he said, first, do you want the job? i said, hell no. [ laughter ] i said, i watch what you go through. i don't want no part of that. so we agreed, both made out a list of ten guys that we would approve of. he said, nobody can get the job unless you approve of it. so i made a list of ten and he made a list of ten. there were no matches. and so he said, what do you want to do? i said, i don't know. he said, okay, well -- he

decided however on this one coach. and he said, this is what i'm going to hire. so i said, red, if you hire him, i am going to retire with you. i don't even want to be in the same room with that person. i cleaned it up. i said person. and he said, why? i said, no. i will not be on the team with him. he said, what do you want to do? i said, i tell you what. i will take the job as a player coach. if it doesn't work, if you ask me to, i will quit or you can fire me. it doesn't make a difference. and i will give whoever you replace me with 100% cooperation. because i didn't want to -- i

had grown to love that organization. i wasn't going to do anything to harm it. >> mess it up, yeah. >> i did a pretty good job. >> i think you did. 11 nba championships. >> what i'm talking about is, i was a player coach with no assistants. i didn't have any assistants. >> nobody could work with you. i heard that story. >> i can be difficult. >> i know. >> you know, i had a song written for me. he talked about my father. and the key line to the song was, i am my father's son.

and he taught me how to be a man by being one. and so, i think that i can have friendships with guys that politically we're completely opposed. but since i demand respect, i was also given respect. so the things i did, i tried to do for the right reasons. never to prove anything to someone i don't know. jim is a life-long friend. probably after my father, the best friend i've ever had.

and the whole thing was based on mutual respect. you know what's odd about it to me is, jim and i have known each other since college. that's in the '50s. and i do not remember -- he says he doesn't remember -- when we met. >> momentous time there. momentous moment. whole thing is, we live in america, and the better america is for everybody here, the better america will be. >> for everybody. >> let me -- go ahead, jim. >> i'd like to emphasize what

you said, because this is a very diverse audience. sometimes i'm misunderstood. i think sometimes you're misunderstood. when you talk about jackie robinson -- i knew jackie very well. had a lot of admiration for him. but i always talked about the man that truly integrated baseball was not jackie. it was branch rickie. jackie called him mr. rickie. he stepped out in a power structure and decided that baseball should be integrated. one reason might be because it's the right thing to do. the other reason might be the box office, the black audience out there that went to baseball games. and he could have chosen satchel page or josh gibson because they were great, great baseball players. but he chose jackie because he knew jackie had the ability to

play great baseball yet play the political role that he had to play, even though it was killing him. and so i say to you that i had a lot of respect for branch rickie and people like him. so if i digress from there, i go to slavery and the underground railroad. you must take notice of these things to be able to live in america properly, i feel. the underground railroad represented harriet tubman. and harriet tubman was given tremendous praise for being that pioneer who basically lived her life to free the slaves. what is also overlooked is that those free houses that those people put up for the slaves to stay at and to hide them and to get them up to the north and get them to canada were regular

people, regular people. nothing special. but the commonality was that they were good human beings. when we talk, the three of us -- i want to emphasize this. we always talk about the category of good human beings before we talk about white, black, whatever. and that becomes important in being a man, because if i have a charity in my soul or the wisdom to recognize goodness in people, then i'm a man, a man of god, a man of trying to do the right thing. therefore, nothing you can do or say to me will change my attitude about my manhood. over the years, the biggest problem that we have had in this country is whenever you stand up for the right thing, even though

it's for the overall populous, people take the attitude that you are a racist or they call it an opposite racist. so i wanted to make that point, because when you say where are we today, well the one guy that i depend on most, young man that just won the super bowl and who is a tremendous human being and has gotten through some troubled times and understands what we are doing is ray lewis. ray, i think, can be the leader of a lot of these young individuals who need that leadership, who want to learn what to do and how to participate in making tremendous change within this country. i thought i would interject that. >> there is no question that every generation has to develop its own leadership. i think that we can -- people of our generation can do the

analysis and tell them about what happened in the past and where we think they are. but ultimately, it's going to have to be this generation that's going to have to take the leadership and responsibility. let me ask, i know that -- because we are running short here. let me ask this. i know that progress many times is a lot like the concept of profit. it really comes down to who is keeping the books. and so in looking at where we are, how much progress have we actually made in sports given the fact that we are down to 8% african-americans in baseball, from 21% in 1973. the heavyweight division of boxing is just about wiped out. i remember a time when there was ali and frazier, norton and george foreman and patterson and

young and torrell and big cat cleveland williams and larry holmes couldn't break into the lineup. he was a sparring partner. today, you couldn't find two people in 100 in an african-american community who could tell if you there was a black heavyweight contender around now. when you look at the fact that the nba is one-quarter foreign born, we are losing spots there. how much progress have we actually made? where are we in terms of that concept? >> harry, i'm going to jump in there because i think a simple way i can say that jimmy carter, president carter, experienced yesterday was almost everything you need to know about progress, about heart, about honesty and about the future. he is on top of it in every way. so i would say to all of

america, if you can get a tape of the jimmy carter presentation of yesterday at that affair is unbelievable. >> there's a movement going on now about unionizing college athletes. i'll be very interested in both of your opinions in terms of this unionization effort. it's just starting. i think people are looking around for an opinion, a disposition, a perspective on it that they can kind of understand and wrap their minds around. jim? bill? >> bill, you want to take this? >> for me, i have this phrase that i use. all great fortunes are amassed with either cheap or slave

labor. and so the ncaa is one group everybody is focusing on. they have this money machine. and to keep it this way, the labor force has to be free or very low wages. that's why you look at a lot of the great companies in this country, and they pay their labor -- they can't afford to go to the place where they work. i know when i was a rookie 100