occasionally you hear somethingu that really summarizes the experience. and i was listening to a song, a lady by the name of kim hairs ga singing the song. i heard it and said, that's a t good song. jaime halfway decent poet lcht moot change it. li -- let me change it. four i adapted it. close i'll close with that.that it goe.s something like this -- my name is bullet rogan. my name is turkey stearns. turke my name is buck o'neil. but my age is way beyond. i spent my prime in baseball shoes, but my sporting days are. gone. m i'm one more forgotten face among the black faced teams.hat an old dark horse they came in t the negro leagues. d i worked the fields in tennesse but dreamed of better days. i left the now pick and bay to n join the homestead grays. all summer long we played the states and headed south for fall. through rain and dust woe rode the bus so we could play

baseball. we played so for love, and we played for pride. ma and we said and made much more. the hotelmo bugs, the roads whe crowds don't roar. the city life came with the lifs i chose, but we made due and came through because dammit we m were pros.n we played in the shadow of the s babe, lou gehrig, and the rest.g thenstad behind that big leagued fence while they were called the best. but we played them well, and we gave them hell with every hit tm and pitch. then stayed behind that colored line and watched those guys gete rich. but did they see josh gibson's ri swing or satchel throuacross hi stuff? do you know how bad it feels when your best y is not good enough? when clouds roll in across the sky to clo hide the brightest m it's then you'll find some stars don't shine, some folks were born too soon.some so god bless you, jackie robinson, willie mays, and all.d you wore our numbers on your back when you played big league ball. and everyig time you hit one o

slid or laid one down, you carried us from that old bus tod the halls of cooperstown. now my name is plum drake, my name is newt allen, my name is s rainey bibbs, but you won't remember that. i'm one more along the score whe played with ball and bat. p but when you seek out heroes ant you praise the great pastime, ae remember those old brown-faced e pros, the stars that did not shine. [ applause ] >> so with that conclusion, i'd rei like to open it to any questiond on the negro leagues. i'd like to thank everybody co figure coming.g i'm heading to junction city it tomorrow. believe it or not, sunday i'm in salisbury, missouri.'m i'm jumping across the state. and having just a ball talking baseball and talking local baseball. that doesn't get talked about et very much, but having fun

bringing the hortiof the kansas city monarchs and the town ball alive again. t >> i think you can probably hea me. can you? >> i think they want you to -- >> speak into the microphone? >> for tv. >> yes, this has been very interesting. i thank you very much for your r presentation. i'm so sorry there aren't more s people here to enjoy this and at learn more about the monarchs.mr i would like to know, has theree ever been or do you think there ever will be a movie that goes back and delves into the history of the monarchs? into because they were a great hs inspiration and the foothold of all the black players in the n american leagues today? in fact, all sports, i think. >> yeah. that's an excellent question.ll i think -- i'm a person who grea up watching baseball movies.

i would say that there's been t some attempts to write a few movies. there was one called "the soulv of the iegame." and it wasn't that great a movie. even in '42, if you watched "42," about jackie robinson, that came out last year, they have one little part in front that talks about the kansas cit monarch. you know, you don't see any not footage. so i think not only the kansas city monarch, a good movie coule be written about the black baseball experience. i think the -- you would need somebody who kind of knew what d was going on to write a good o movie it it. i might mention, too, when i first started doing research onh the negro leagues, going back to the early '80s, i've seen so gs many things change. when i first started doing research, people said, oh, you won't find photographs. of course, after i found 600 --,

actually i found close to 1,000. "t)l"egro baseball leagues: a photographic history." people didn't believe you couldo find pictures anymore. i killed that myth. and now i'm also trying to popularize the fact that the monarchs and these teams in them negro leagues played in all t these cities. there's so many greatciti storia that could be told. hopefully i'd like to see in my lifetime, as well. >> thank you. i had a coach and teacher in hi junior high that played early days of pro football. got they got paid, if they got in the game. they had to get tlems says to th the game and had to buy uniform. are you aware of how the players got paid?t >> sure. the fortunate thing, if you were playing for the kansas city monarchs, you were essentially r playing fore the new york yanko of the negro league. negro so wilkinson always paid his players. you in, i have run in to players over the years who told me thath they're still waiting for their check from a game they played in

1928. that wasn't the case with the wilkinson. and once againse -- and rufoste as well. he kept it in the records. players made money playing the d teams. s the one of the reason monarchs were so successful because they had players.roga billy rogan was there from 1920 until 1938 when he retired.192 josephs there from $32 to join 37. allen there was until 1946. the players came and loved t playing for j.l. wilkinson. and they got paid well, and so d they stayed. they worked for their money, but they got paid well, and so -- ye yeah. these weren't pickup games. if they came to abilene, the thi was going to be ale promoter. this promoter knew we were goin to get x amount at the gate, ant i got to pay the monarchs 60%. they knew how to rouse the public and get people to come.g.

that's how wilkinson made his money. was tough going for some peopleo depending onme d your owner. wilkinson paid his players well. >> this kind of ties in with that question.es but when you showed a couple shots, one of the records where they played, it looked like you maybe eight, maybe nine game ini a row where they played days ind a row. also youys showed the picture o the town team when they were barnstorming the town team alonl with the monarch. unless i miscounted, it looked s like there was ten guys. typically, how many traveled on a team? and were they that limited on players? >> well, i know in 1929, they had to cut -- cut their rostersn down. they carried 13 players.ould you could play in over 100 gameg with 13 players. so you needed a guy like bullet rogan who could play the who co outfield at the same time he cl could pitch. he was like two players in one.a they could carry a smaller roster like that and still play. it just depends.play. sometimes some of the players de

might not have gotten into the picture. but they usually carry maybe about 15 players. as a matter of fact, that picture was taken right before a fair. and i might mention, too, when the monarchs were supposed to come here in 1927, it was some kind of chataqua, i think that that's what they called them, -i and it got rained out. i know that they played a lot of fairs and events like it which helped to draw people to the fair. a lot of county fairs. >> any records -- given the the description of the day -- discrimination of the day -- where they would stay on the bus or camp out? stay were they able to get get accommodations? >> accommodations could be tough. also, eating could be tough. i interview dink mofu and asked him what do you remember best about barnstorm willing. he said hunger because you had to take your lunch -- use e

couldn't just pum at a mcdonald's or some kind of m restaurant and just go in and get your food. they had to go around to the back -- the back of the buildinr to get their food. wilkinson, to his credit, some , places wouldn't feed the monarchs, so he wouldn't eat nas there either. so he tried to fight for good -f for good treatment for his players. it was tough. if they were playing whereso tp could come and play thelayi gamd get back to kansas city the same day, that's what they d. if they were out and -- they they're not able to stay there, there were a number of rooming houses -- as a matter of fact, there was a lads that i knew, she was from south dakota, african-american lady.o and she later moved to kansas city. she said thatved the only blac people that she had saw from outside her community were commn musicians, circus people, and baseball players because those are the only onesers that came and they used to room with them so she knew lots of circus and t musicians and athletes, but shes didn't know anyone else.sicians so boarding houses would take ug the hoslack.

and some places, they would ple have, you know, some of the larger cities would have they w black-owned hotels, that kind oh thing this. part of the country, if they played in, say, they played in, say, sioux falls, om south dakota, or omaha and could get back the same day, they came back the same day. one thing i may mention, theyh played almost every single day.s so they were on that bus all the time. one last thing i'll mention, mi there was a lady, she was as married to a ballplayer who or played for the memphis red sox, his name was larry brown. this was his wife. i interviewed her. she married him then went with m team on a trip, and she was on h the buse with the team and she said we were gone for a month and stayed in a hotel two times so -- >> thank you.>> t most of us know that the first t black player that went to the major leagues was not 10% chose

on talent, but would somebody p? else have been chosen?i say in retrospect. >> in retrospect, somebody else probably would have been chosen. >> going to tell us who? >> here's the reason i say that. jackie robinson was chosen during world war ii.t maybe he was one of the better players. i can't deny oneas thing, he wah an excellent choice, when you look back on it. i mean, you couldn't get a omeon better choice but ie know he needed someone who was comfortable with playing with white players because that was h going to be a completely new environment. jackie had that. you know, funny thing is, willie brown becomes the third player, and i mentioned he was -- left the st. louis browns and never came back.

one of the reasons is because he wasn't like jackie. i interviewed his wife and his wife said that willie brown, he did pretty much what he always did. one of the things, he wh complained. and when he got to the st. louid browns, he complained because he used a 40 ounce bat and his players were playing with 32.bas said, i don't have any bats here, how do you play with 32 ounce bats, where's your real bats? that's probably didn't make himm too popular.it a he still hit a home run with a 32. the other thing was when he got back to the hotel, he'd go out at night and liked to take a ery drink every now and then. so his wife said, they're watch you. you know, he couldn't be anybodh but himself. even know he was a great ballplayer, he probably wasn't the best pick and the best fit.f so i could think of some other people, even satchel page, he t was gettinghe older. but there were a lot of great young players who ended up coming up latermi evenng dobey, miney irvin was even mentioned g

as a possibility coming up.ted they wanted older players. there were still great older players still around. roy campanella who came up later with the dodgers, you know, he would have been excellent choice and heha later on was. i might mention one thing that -- because i could probabla name half a tuzdozen who would e been good players that came oute later. interesting thing about jackie robinson, the brooklyn dodgers actually stole jackie robinson from the monarchs.wilkinso wilkerson who owned the team and a gentleman by the name of tom d baird who had part ownership could not say anything because they would be looked upon as holding the black player back they were to argue this debate about why didn't youyo compensah us for this player?player. because remember, this is a ss. business. so they didn't say anything. but quietly, they had their ow boycott, and you would notice, no kansas city monarch ever played for the brooklyn dodgers

again. so that's the ways they boycotted, and brooklyn dodgers had many great players, but they didn't have guys who came from the kansas city monarchs and the monarchs sent more players to the big leagues than any other negro league team. do you have any record of in t anthony kansas monarchs? >> sure. >> my dad played for anthony boosters, against the monarchs, about 90 years ago i think. >> okay. >> if there's some way you i'd really appreciate . because it's been a long time n since i even knew about -- my dad's been gone 50 years. >> they definitely did play anthony kansas. as i was coming down the free freeway, coming to abilene todan from kansas city, i'm driving k past all these places that i

know the monarchs appear.i kn i know they played amigo. of course, they played at ft. rt riley. they played in junction city. they are at manhattan.an, cl clay center.ter. then i can keep on going out west. practically any city that was a city had a baseball team. and they had, like, a little kansas league that they would ey play in, so the monarchs came and played all those cities, if not one year, different years.c. i'll do some research an get nam your name out. happy t i'll be happy to supply that information. >> in about 19 59, satchel came out and spent time in salina, rt pitched for salina blue jays. unfortunately, we still as a team suffered un under the discrimination. they traveled by bus. of course, after theth game lik to eat somewhere.

and there were many times, and the time i remember was in mcphearson, where they told satchel he'd have to go in the back door if he wanted to eat. and the whole team got up and left. which i commend the managers and the sponsor for that.d i was fortunate enough to be the bat i boy. so i got to see a lot of satchef in the other players, but as late as 1959, the black ballplayers were still sufferinl under that discrimination scenario. >> yeah, that's incident. i appreciate that comment. you would enjoy this. i was in nevada last sunday, and there was a ballplayer who played for the mcphearson team. who played against satchel page. and he was actually on the team. with him as well. so, and he mentions the 1959 as. well, he has some great stories. satchel page, you know, well, let me put it this way. kansas had its own unique form

of racism. you know, i know a little bit about boxing, and boxing wasd n considered a contact sport, so until 1938, i think it was '38 was the first year that they wd would let black amateur boxers l fight white amateur boxers in te the state of kansas. they could go to missouri and fight in the golden gloves but s the kansas black fighters white couldn't fight the white as to fighters in kansas to qualify.ao they had to fight other black players. black fighters in kansas.s -- and then b in certain sports, ty had high school rules. they first -- they considered basketball a contact sport.so m so,an i mean, black schools couldn't play against white schools in basketball because those were some of the rules anw slowly thosely rules have disappeared, but it was pretty tough times.th there was a ergentleman by the - name of -- actually he has -- - there's two players. he has a couple of grandsons. i'm going to call his name in a

minute.e he played for the colorado springs sky sox. his name was sam hairston. he said when he played for sky o sox, he had to go in the back.hw he would go in the back of the restaurant and where the cooks were and all the cooks were black. so he'd go back there and then the players would go in thee pl front, so they're sitting out in the restaurant, you know, they pay $5, they get their meal, l, whatever it was. back probably didn't cost $5 back ba then. t he was in the back so he was eating twice as much food.en he then when he would leave, they would give him a to-go sack, anl so he would leave and tell me stories about that night.t, his his teammates say, hey, what did your people put in that sack foy you? because they were hungry again and he was the only one with a a sack. so you make the best out of a bad situation and that's what some of the players did. and sam hairiston, of course, has his -- he had two sons thata played in the big leagues and now he's got two grandsons that

played in the big leagues.now so i guess he did pretty good. >> was the barnstorming something all the negro leagues teams did, or was it just prette much what the monarchs, what they wanted to do? >> yeah, all the teams tried.tr i'll put it that way.you coul because you could see, it was very lucrative in the money, bu you had to build up a tradition so two of the greatest tw barnstorming teams were the hem stead grays and the kansas city m monarchs and the can kansas city mar knack monarchs tied up and pretty muche dominated that area.an that was the team. gre there was one greatat white barnstorming team which the house of david, and they came, and what's interesting, the o house of david was booked by tom bair and a guy out of muscatined

iowa, and booked the monarchs. they had a schemevi d going. the house of david would come id and play the local team and pretty much beat them because a they had great players as well,o so then the monarchs could come. through, play the local team.tem remember the same people are e booking them.use of people would realize the house a of david and monarchs are hat th awfully goodey teams because lo what they did to our local teaml they'd turn around and book a game in the town, the kansas city monarchs against the house of david and get three days out of the same city and did this al all over the country. so, yeah, barnstorming, it was intelligent move from the moneym side, and the teams who ba barnstormed the best survived the longest. >> >> well, if we don't have any additional questions, just want to remind you phil will be available to sign copies of one of his books and we just want to thank phil, again, for coming

out to abilene. thank you, phil. [ applause ] >> thank you. "american history tv" normally airs on the weekends, but with congress on recess, throughout august, we're featuring highlights during the week. up next, the history of racism in professional sports. then competitive walking and its popularity in the late 19th century. tonight, "american history tv" explores the overland campaign, a series of major battles that took place in virginia in 1864 between union forces under ulysses s. grant and confederates led by robert e. lee. watch the commemoration ceremonies marking the beginning and conclusion of the overland campaign as well as a look at the battle of cold harbor, the campaign's final major conflict.

that's all tonight at 8:00 eastern here on c-span3. next on "american history tv" hall of fame basketball player, bill russell, and hall of fame football player, jim brown discuss racial equality in professional sports and their struggles for respect throughout their careers. they also talked about the role of african-americans in college and professional sports today. this hour-long panel was part of the lyndon b. johnson presidential library's civil rights summit. good afternoon. my name is mike cramer, i'm the director of the texas program and sports and media here at the university of texas. we're pleased to partner, again, with the lbj library and museum. this is probably about our fifth event that we partnered at least on a piece of a program with

them. today's conversation is part of our series called "the mcgar symposium on sports and society" that was founded by one of the distinguished alums, cathie mcgar, who we're pleased to partner with on many occasions. we also have an interesting timing of this today. yesterday, one of our participants, dr. harry edwards who i'm going to introduce in a moment, we formally announced that we have established a permanent lecture at the university of texas called the dr. harry edwards lecture on sports in society. and so -- [ applause ]c we couldn't possibly find a better person in the history of sports and civil rights than dr. harry edwards. he was gracious enough to lend his name to that lecture. we expect we will have several presentations under that name in

the coming years. today is -- we have a conversation that's going to occur on the area of sports and civil rights. i've been a part of many panels and many presentations over the years. normally, you try and find the best panelists and the best people to make that presentation. rarely do you have the people, the top people who are presenting. in other words, if you had to pick one, two, and three, rarely do you get one, two, and three. today we are fortunate that we have probably the three most important people in the civil rights sports and society and sports and civil rights movement in the last 50 years. and we're ecstatic, we're pleased, we're proud that we can

present them and have a conversation with them with you today. let me say that again. we have here probably the top 3 people in this whole area in the last 50 years. [ applause ] so let me get on with the program. it's them you're here to see. i'd like to introduce to you dr. harry edwards, mr. bill russell, mr. jim brown. [ applause ] >> thank you. [ applause ] >> take it away, harry. >> thank you very much.

it's a real pleasure to be here with 26 men that i have known for about the last 45 or 50 years. if you hear a touch of respect and admiration and affection in my voice during the course of this conversation, you have me correctly. i want to begin by stating that there have been four athletes over the last half of the 20th century who have been utterly transformative. the first, of course, is the immortal jackie robinson. [ applause ] the second is the indomitable mr. bill russell. [ applause ] the third is the incomparable mr. jim brown. [ applause ] and the fourth is the absolutely unconquerable miss billie jean

king. i want to focus on the struggle at the interface of race, sport, and society. in preparing for this conversation, i went back and read jim brown and bill russell's first two books. jim brown's "off my chest and out of bounds" and bilt-nx russell's "goal for glory and second win." i think that those are four books that should be required reading for all athletes entering college and professional sports today because they say so much about where we have come from and the sacrifices that were made in order for them to be where they are today. the things that stuck with me about those books and reading them was, first, how well the philosophies, the perspectives, the ethical arguments and so

forth of jim and bill have stood up over the last 50 years. the second thing is that they were superstar athletes whether they stood up. they weren't a bunch of guys who retired and so forth. they were superstar athletes when they stood up and spoke out. the third thing that struck me was that they never were willing to exchange white racism for black orthodoxy. they were always about the people. their argument was, and that i as a man am part of the people and i insist on being respected as such throughout that -- their books. and then the fourth thing that really blew me away and that i find amazing to this day is how young they were. we are talking about 22, 23, 24 years old. what we call today a young adult. aware of consigning an entire generation of people to sand box citizenship. they were speaking out at 24

years old when this happened. so i would like, first of all, to go back to that time and i'm going to exercise my prerogatives as the only 72-year-old up here and call you young men by your first names. and ask about what took you to that place? how did you end up at that place? why don't we start, jim, with you in terms of this. how do you end up in that place at 23, 24 years old? >> doc, i was very fortunate to have a great mother, no father. went to a high school with a great coach. greatest man i ever met in my life, ed walsh. a great mentor, kenny malloy. and they were impeccable from the standpoint of advocating

education, self-determination. and i had an example of people that were really good. there was tremendous discrimination in this country at the time. it was told to me that i could be loved and popular if i would bow down and do a little dance. i don't know if you know what that means. but i said, i don't really dance. i just prefer to be a man. an american citizen. and i pay my taxes. i want my rights. so freedom, equality and justice is what i pursued, and i pursued it at all cost because nothing else would substitute for that. no trophy, no form of popularity. because i was helped as a young man, i knew that my life's work would be to help others. so that's what you have here. >> bill, what took you down that path that you took?

i was reading "gore for glory" and you stated, i have never been one to pursue being liked. from day one, i was about being respected. what took you down that path at 22, 23 years old? >> well, i guess it started when i was born. my mother and father, the first thing i knew about life was my mother and father loved me. and my mother -- i was born in the segregated south in the '30s in louisiana. my mother -- our first conversation said to me, there's nobody on this planet any better than you. also, there's nobody on this planet that you are better than them.

and so i grew up with confidence that i was okay. and my mother and father always treated each other with respect. and so when i went out into the world, that's the way i thought it was supposed to be. >> okay. and did everything you could to change it to make that way when it wasn't? >> huh? >> did everything to make it that way when it wasn't? >> my mother told me when i was young, she says to me one day, you can play in the front yard for the first time. she had kept me in the backyard all the time. she said, the reason i want you to play in the front yard is

people will walk by and they will say things to you, good or bad, but it has nothing to do with you. it has to do with them and their perspective. so you play and have fun. don't worry about that. >> okay. >> so when i grew up, i encountered things. i knew i was okay. but moving ahead, a few years ago i met nelson mandela. we had a brief conversation. and i asked him how he could be

such a good person of all the things that he had encountered. and he said, if i had reacted the way they predicted that i would act, then they were right. but he said, i am a mandela and that's where i get my philosophy from is that the opposite of love is not hate. the opposite of love is indifference. and so the only way that humans can evolve is they have to care about each other. >> that was evident throughout a number of your chapters in your book.

let me ask you -- ask you this. jim, in particular, i was looking at a book entitled "the 100 most important people in american sports" and quite fittingly billie jean king is on the cover. there was a statement that you made early on in one of your earliest books where you stated that you had never been -- there had never been a time when you were not conscious of the civil rights movement. you stated, i was very conscious of the civil rights movement and very active in what i called the movement for dignity, equality and justice. it superseded my interest in sports. sports gave me an opportunity to help the cause. and that is what i dedicated myself to doing.

now, i know that you supported the civil rights movement. but you were ahead of the civil rights movement in terms of your focus on economic development. what led you to move beyond simple desegregation to economic development, to starting the black economic union, setting up these offices all over the country, traveling through the deep south in a bus with other professional athletes talking to small -- black small business people in georgia, alabama, tennessee? what led you to that sense that that was the direction things had to go into? >> well, it was the understanding that people had to get off of their butts. regardless of what the condition, use intelligence and labor as they could to deliver themselves. we couldn't depend on a government or corporate america or anyone.

so i was always a person that advocated economic development because america is a capitalist society. it's based on economics. if you don't use economics in your community, your community will never grow. the jewish community in this country and the world has proven that collectively you can be a minority and apply the right principles and emancipate yourself. i thought the african-american community had to apply itself, have the greatest community, the safest communities and probably most of all, understand economic development. so that was the way that i led. and i attracted the top young mba's in the country. and i got the top black athletes in the country.

and i put them together. and we got a grant of over $1 million at the time. we had a fund that any young black entrepreneur could come and make that loan and get the benefit of the knowledge of our natural business planning team. so that was the way i felt we could gain equality quicker than doing anything else. >> you know, i want people to really understand. we're talking about -- think of a 26, 25, 27-year-old athlete today that would have that kind of insight and vision. that's how far ahead you were in terms of that situation. it astounds me even now. bill, you, too, had a sense of the necessity of economic development, not only did you have your own business here, but long before globalization came

into the language, a lexicon of the society, you had already set up relationships in west africa and were talking about how we needed to connect with african countries and have some mutual economic development and so forth. you also went into the south. i mean, two months after the assassination, i know you went down to mississippi. it was a frightening time and held integrated basketball clinics in mississippi two months after medger edwards' death. of course, your boston celtic teammates said, you're going to be okay, just keep a low profile. but you went down and held those clinics. while you were down there, you talked to young people about the necessity of completing school, becoming economically viable and so forth.

>> well, most of the people, as i could see, were economically deprived. i felt that as one of the places where you can purchase equality if you have what started out as a charity, you could make it a force. i know i was in boston. and there was a great many questions about why i would go to africa.

people told me, africans don't like you. well, the people that were telling me that didn't like me. [ laughter ] so i wanted to go and see for myself. some guy came to me and he says, what do you know about africa? you don't know anything about them. they are not like you. you got no business doing that. so i said, you know, i have this family that are friends of mine. they have been accused of supporting the irish revolution. the family was the kennedys. i knew all of them. in fact, i'm old enough that i remember meeting and sitting and talking with rose kennedy. and i said, well, if it's all

right for them, go back where their ancestors came from, why isn't that all right for me to go back where i think my ancestors came from? so it was all about -- see, i never, ever considered myself as a leader or anything like that. all i did was -- one thing i wanted to make sure that i never did anything that my father would be ashamed of. so the things i did, for example, i coached the boston celtics. i was the player coach of the boston celtics. so they said, you are the first black coach in the nba. in fact, you are the first black

coach manager in baseball, football and basketball in the major leagues. what about that? and i said to them, if red had ever said to me, this is a great social experience -- experiment, i would have nothing to do with it. the only reason i would do it, because i'm convinced that i'm the best person for the job. [ applause ] so where i considered trying to do everything in my life based on merit. and i expected all of the people i surround myself with. >> to do the same? >> jim and i have known each

other since college. and he used to tell me all the time that he was a better basketball player than i was anyway. >> averaged 38 points a game. >> and i said, jim, no. [ laughter ] in fact i said to him one time, i said, you know, i think you are one of the greatest athletes, if not the greatest athlete of the 20th century. but leave basketball alone. [ laughter ] jim saw and i supported, if you don't have any wherewithal to

exercise influence, then you will never succeed. in exercising influence. and i tried to live a life that would exercise influence. i personally am not interested in that. i'm just interested in -- i raise my kids. and i always let them know that i love them. i think that's one of the key things about raising kids. my daughter -- i have to fight off her telling me what to do

now. she graduated from harvard law school. the minute she gets a degree from harvard, she knows everything. [ laughter ] so i just try to see where things are needed, recognize that things are needed and try to put myself in a place where i can make a difference. >> let's jump to the present. where did the train leave the track? where are the bill russells? where are the jim browns? i know we don't expect people to do things the same way they were done in the '60s, since you and bill and jim didn't do things the same way that jackie

robinson did or jesse owens or joe lewis did. how did we come to a place where we have the level of uninvolvement, apathy, a lack of concern about the broader issues that you speak of now? >> well, i say what, you mentioned jackie robinson. i met him a couple times. when he died, i got a call from rachel robinson. she said that she wanted me to be a pallbearer at his funeral. and i said, that's an overwhelming honor. why me? she said, you were one of jackie's favorite athletes. and i took that to say jackie had done a tremendous thing for us.

he was the first black to play baseball, but he was never a pushover. and he took us to a place that opening up this whole world for us. but i was not going to revisit that place. i wanted to take it to the next step. >> which you most certainly did. >> and so when red asked me -- he said, he's retiring. i went back to my coach. he said i'm retiring. i got to find a coach to replace me. he said, first, do you want the job? i said, hell no. [ laughter ] i said, i watch what you go

through. i don't want no part of that. so we agreed, both made out a list of ten guys that we would approve of. he said, nobody can get the job unless you approve of it. so i made a list of ten and he made a list of ten. there were no matches. and so he said, what do you want to do? i said, i don't know. he said, okay, well -- he decided to hire just one coach. and he said, okay, this is what i'm going to hire. so i said, red, if you hire him, i am going to retire with you. i don't even want to be in the same room with that person. i cleaned it up. i said person. [ laughter ] and he said, why?

i said, no. i will not be on the team with him. he said, what do you want to do? i said, i tell you what. i will take the job as a player coach. if it doesn't work, if you ask me to, i will quit or you can fire me. it doesn't make a difference. and i will give whoever you replace me with 100% cooperation. because i didn't want to -- i had grown to love that organization.gf%l i wasn't going to do anything to harm it. >> mess it up, yeah. >> i did a pretty good job. >> i think you did. 11 nba championships. >> what i'm talking about is, i was a player coach with no

assistants. i didn't have any assistants. >> nobody could work with you. i heard that story. [ laughter ] >> i can be difficult. >> i know. i know. >> you know, i had a song written for me. he talked about my father. and the key line to the song was, i am my father's son. and he taught me how to be a man by being one. and so, i think that i can have friendships with guys that politically we're completely opposed. but since i demand respect, i was also given respect.

so the things i did, i tried to do for the right reasons. never to prove anything to someone i don't know. jim is a lifelong friend. probably after my father, the best friend i've ever had. and the whole thing was based on mutual respect. you know what's odd about it to me is that jim and i have known each other since college, and that's in the '50s. and i do not remember -- he says he doesn't remember -- when we met. >> momentous time there. momentous moment.

yeah. >> the foundation is -- of the whole thing is -- we live in america and the better america is for everybody here, the better america will be. >> for everybody. [ applause ] >> let me -- go ahead, jim. >> i'd like to emphasize what you said, bill, because this is a very diverse audience. and sometimes i'm misunderstood. i think sometimes you're misunderstood. but when you talked about jackie robinson, and i knew jackie very well. had a lot of admiration for him. but i always talked about the man that truly integrated baseball was not jackie. it was branch rickie.

jackie called him mr. rickie. he stepped out in a power structure and decided that baseball should be integrated. one reason might be because it's the right thing to do. the other reason might be the box office, the whole black audience out there that went be baseball games. and he could have chosen satchel paige or josh gibson because they were great, great baseball players. but he chose jackie because he knew jackie had the ability to play great baseball yet play the political role that he had to play, even though it was killing him. and so i say to you that i had a lot of respect for branch rickie and people like him. so if i digress from there, i go to slavery and the underground railroad. you must take notice of these things to be able to live in america properly, i feel.

the underground railroad represented harriet tubman. and harriet tubman was given tremendous praise for being that pioneer who basically lived her life to free the slaves. what is also overlooked is that those free houses that those people put up for the slaves to stay at and to hide them and to get them up to the north and get them to canada were regular people, regular people. nothing special. but the commonality was that they were good human beings. when we talk, the three of us -- i want to emphasize this. we always talk about the category of good human beings before we talk about white, black, whatever.

and that becomes important in being a man, because if i have a charity in my soul or the wisdom to recognize goodness in people, then i'm a man, a man of god, a man of trying to do the right thing. therefore, nothing you can do or say to me will change my attitude about my manhood. over the years, the biggest problem that we have had in this country is whenever you stand up for the right thing, even though it's for the overall populous, people take the attitude that you are a racist or they call it an opposite racist. so i wanted to make that point, because when you say where are we today, well the one guy that i depend on most, young man that just won the super bowl and who