i think it was that crazy story of finding the secret formula of the structure of the firm that was really surprising when i got into this project. >> bart elmore, a professor at the university of alabama, native of atlanta and author of the book, "citizen coke." thank you for being with us. >> thank you very much. while congress is on break this month, we're showing programs normally seen weekends here on c-span3 during american history tv. coming up the history of the civil war and slavery, as seen through hollywood's depictions. we begin shortly with a panel of history professors and their review of films since the 1930s, including the movies "man dingo" and ""amistad"" and "12 years a slave." and then matthew pinskar evaluates "lincoln" and then "gone with the wind got."

it's 150 years since the u.s. civil war and a number of countre are under way this year and next to mark the occasion. over the next new hours, we're going to take a look at hollywood's perception of the issues. now, a panel of history professors traces slavery as depicted in films in the 1930s. this hour and a half event is from the society from civil war historians bihandle meeting in baltimore. in the past two years, three feature filmses who focus is american slavery and emancipation have been released to positive and often glowing reviews and all of them were profitable. ""django unchained"" made 160 milli million. "lincoln" made 182 million. "12 years a slade made $26

million but only cost $26 million to make. roughly the same. this mini upsurge has provoked a lot of debate and discussion about the depictions of slavery and freedom of film and other forms of media, visual media and television and documentary, youtube shorts and different series. we are continue iing that conversation today. all our panels are fierce scholars of the american south and gender and they have written and reviewed, taught courses on and consulted on films about slavery. kathryn clinton has been teaching at queens university belfast since 2006 but will be coming back to the united states this fall to be the professor of

u.s. history at the university of texas san antonio. she's the author of numerous books about gender, race and the american civil war including biographies of mary todd lincoln, harriet tubman and mary kimball and susan king taylor and mary chestnut. professor clinton serves on the virginia commission and an advisory board member of civil ward history the ford's theater in washington d.c. and the civil war times and she also serves as historical consultant to steven spielberg's lincoln. i imagine we will hear about some of that experience today. john inscoe is professor of history and university professor at the university of georgia. he is the author of "mountain ma masters slavery and the sectional crisis in western north carolina." "race, war and remembrance" in

the appalachian south and co-author of heart of confederate ap latch thctch app. and currently editor of the new encyclopedia and georgia historical association. he recently completed a book of "riding the south" and currently working on a book on ap latch that and film. >> brenda stevenson is history of professor at ucla where she serv served in the department of history and african-american studies, award of "life in black-and-white" "family in the slave south" and "justice and gender and origins of the l.a. riots" which just won the oa hrh 2001 rolle prize and "what is

slavery" will be published in 2015. she has received awards from the melon foundation, ford foundation, smithsonian institution and american foundation of university women. so, clearly, a group of slackers. so, we will start with john inscoe and move down the table with the comments from the panel panels. >> thank you, megan. i think i'm here because i teach a course on slavery, fact, film and fiction. we start with birth of a nation, move through several plantation mellodramas of the 1930s. jezebel, shirley temple epics, the little colonel and gone with the wind. showing clips of these and move to walt disney "song of the

south" after the war of 1946. and 1990s saw another spurt of movies about slavery, steven spielberg's "am ma stastad" andy oprah winfrey and others and "django" "django unchained" and "12 years a slave." measuring 12 years of progress or lack thereof in the popular culture, hollywood in the 1930s was very much entrenched in the lost cause approaches to slavery. slaves are background figures, they are supporting casts, they are often mere comic relief who are gladly serving their masters and mistresses for the most part are very benign and well-meaning but also firm and authoritative. sometimes frustrated at the ineptitude of their slaves. think of scarlet and prissy for

example. not much had changed by 1946 when walt disney took on uncle remiss in remis in "song of the south" and is banned or not distributed by walt disney in this country and there was controversy when it came out and shows us how sensitive race was in the post war era than 1930s. it took until the early '70s before it was ban. it was the early '70s walt disney finally gave in to pressure of its political incorrectness. what i have to use now is a video smuggled to me by a former student of mine who lives in japan where it is very popular, where you can see it with japanese subtitles and multi culture georgia as well and works very well to look at "song

of the south" with japanese subtitles. japanese intrigued with all things southern. "gone with the wind" as well as "song of the south." the subtitles only appear when they sing. they can understand the singing but you can get zippity-do-da translation under the song. it is a milestone of sorts. as politically incorrect as it is in many way, it is also the first film to take a black character and make him the central character around which the plot revolves. it also makes him the most sympathetic and wisest character. he outsmarts all the white adults in the film. nevertheless he is a contended slave there or ex slave, as it may be.

the film is very ambivalent whether or not it's set before or after the civil war. it is interesting to teach that with students and look at some of the ways it add vanses the cause as well as prominence of slavery and putting the slave center stage. still, some of the old guard assumptions about slavery it's very comfortable in perpetuating. by the '50s and '60s, hollywood was producing more socially conscious and cutting edge films based on race. things like "pinky," "the defiant ones" in the 1960s "guess who's coming to dinner," "in the heat of the night." it pretty much steered clear of slavery and 1960 race relations in any significant way. it was a real leap into the modern films. i don't deal with "roots" or that great film of the 1970s, "man dingo" with students.

with these modern films from the 1990s, on up until the very recent films we've seen last year, i thought i'd throw out a couple of things that strike me as worthy of discussion. one is the gender discussion. with this panel gender might not get much play and i better cover it. [ laughter [ laughter ] >> it's interesting these other films, it's totally desexualized. you never see slave couples. you never see men and women together in any sort of romantic or household context. they're usually very single asexual figures. you never see them as parents in any sort of role. they're definitely supporting casts in all issues avoided. also relatively non-issues in films like "glory," amistad" and "lincoln" and either central themes or important subplots with women. two put slave women front and

center. "beloved" and "the journey of august king." "the journey of august king" is set in southern and north carolina and by an author who has done a whole span covering southern appalachian history. set in 1815, very early. deals with the escape of a slave girl who is abused by her owner, who it turns out in the course of the film is also her father. and a yoman farmer on his way to market, encounters her, be friends her and aids her in her escape. newton plays in it and jason patric plays august king, the yoman who helps them out and a strong attraction between them that remains chaste. this father/owner/lover is determined to get this girl back

and goes to no end to mount a manhunt to go after her. i think in many ways, it's the most interesting and in some ways nuanced and sophisticated treatment of klaclass distincti and class attitude not only towards slaves and slave holders and tremendous resentment at a time and place slave is far more an anomaly than the norm in the mountains of north carolina in that early frontier era. the other is "beloved" adopted from tony morrison's novel. it's a gulf coast story of sorts dealing with the long term psychic stars of slavery, set in 1873, in cincinnati. it is based very much on the abuses that are only seen in brief flashbacks inflicted on the film's heroine, seth, played by oprah winfrey, who when cornered by slave catchers in cincinnati murdered one of her

own children and tried to kill another based on the real life case of market garner in 1856 in cincinnati. then, in this 1873 post emancipation period she continues to be haunted by a version of the infant girl she murdered decades earlier. she's also played by andy newton. it's a clunky film, not a great film but fascinating it was made in a film. i have students read the novel and we watch parts of the film. then, we come to "12 years a slave" and even "django unchained." i think part of what they do so well is feature female characters who take on as much or more abuse as do their male protagonists. in "django," quentin taran

tango, the most macho western spaghetti and racial revenge fantasy. it's over the top as in so many plots and an attempt to rescue "django"'s much tormented slave wife played by kerry washington makes for its most poignant moments and absurdly happy ending as they blow up the plantation and everybody in it and ride off in the sunset. in 12 years, it's the harassment, both physical and mental abuse inflicted on patty by her master and mistress that gets far more attention unfortunately in the film than in the narrative. this is somethingjjffñ9g expanded on by the screenwriters and as you know earned an academy award for the actress who played patsy. it's one of the few films other than "roots," i can't think of

another one that dramatized separating mothers from their children and when saul is sold, the mother and her two children. she is separated from her two children and he becomes the means that tries to comfort this woman and is paralyzed by grief at the loss of those children. it seems to me as central as fugitive as these narratives are giving a slave voice as a primary source on the american slavery, how rare we see escape narratives as part of what has been translated into screen, even solon northrop counted among the great narratives but doesn't involve an escape. his release comes from machinations and legal dealings and brad pitt sets all this in motion and we never see any of it on-screen so the drama has to

come from elsewhere. not much drama in the wagon comes up, papers shown to the owner and the gets in and drives off to freedom. the only instances we get of slave escape are those involving women. one is that in "beloved," a flashback seth in crossing the -- really harrowing scene, crossing the ohio river or getting ready to cross the ohio river she actually gives birth to the baby girl she will subsequently kill when slave catchers are out to get her. the other, the one i mentioned already, the "journey of august king" the entire narrative is driven by this escape, this manhunt, and even so typically hollywood, you get the name of the male protagonist, "the journey of august king" rather than the slave's name. it's very much her journey as well despite the fact in real

life there are far fewer women that escape or escape alone than there were men but we've seen very little of that translated to screen so far. one other observation on the gender front and then i will turn it over to my fellow panelists. i think it's very curious white women really ruled the roost in these early depictions of plantation slavery in the 1930s. think of betty davis in "jez bell," scarlet o'hara and her mother that really are the authority figures of the slaves at tara and beyond. in "song of the south," it's an elderly widow. we have no men on the premise. no slave masters. they're either absent or very much in the background. in perhaps the most absurd example you have a 7-year-old shirley temple spends much of the littlest rebel bossing around bill bo jangles robinson or other adult slaves students

find either appalling or ludicrous or both. it's only in these very recent slaves we have strong masters and we find very cruel sadistic and even demented men that dominate. michael fastbender in "12 years a slave" and leonardo dicaprio in "django," echos back to simon deg rr degree in "uncle tom's cabin." and solomon dedicated it in his feature. and was impacted by her novel and wonder if the separation of family and abuse of slave women and these very cruel and sadistic owner may have been influence in some part, not to say he didn't experience all this himself, makes you wonder how many of those elements come through and stowe's novel published it the week before.

that's just an observation. i don't know what we will make of this. i'll leave it at that and concern it over to catherine. [ applause [ applause ] >> thank you. i want to thank the organizers of this panel for the opportunity to reflect. when i first began on "plantation south 40 years ago, one of my mentors insisted i go to see and accompanied me to see the film "man dingo" in time square in 1975. the year it was a top 10 box office hit. the scholar later pointed out to me a billboard in time square that featured an escort service that was 1-800-call tara. certainly, i was made aware of the way films could influence attitudes. that produced in my first book a chapter called "fuco meets

mandingo." in my career in this topic, mandingo was a rich rifle, rich availability of religious literature in slavery. mandingo was followed by the publication of "roots" and the 1977 mini series appearing on tv. this year i supervised a thesis, a student writing on the impact of "roots" not just the novel and the film and the first mini series but the multiple mini series that came after it, the phenomenon. he was drawn to this topic because of the current spate of films and media attention on the role of slavery in the american past. appearance of such films as "django" and unchained and "lincoln" and afro british director asante, the film,

"belle." these films not only raised the profile of american history in slavery but profile of academics and scholars not just to debate their work and students within the campus bubble but reach outside the halls of the academy and discuss this with a larger public audience. this intersecretary wits of a t larger questions, our role in society and crisis and academics to prove they are engaged in public service and dialogue. i certainly became aware of the way academics are being invited to play a role in the reception of film during the past few decades, thinking of campaigns to woo civil war scholars with the screenings of "cold mountain." certainly one of the best gambits of all was to include scholars on-screen as extras in the 1983 film "adaptation of killer angels gettysburg."

even if we are brought on for advisors we may have crucial contributions to the screening of slavery. many of my colleagues had strident objections to blacks in spielberg's "lincoln" or interpretation or omission of the american african presence. i myself was impressed with the film and know it had limitations and nevertheless overwhelmed by its artistry and impact and in disclosure i did consult on the costumes and met with sally field more obsessed on lincoln than she was. i appreciated the complexity of the two african-americans with whom lincoln had the most constant and significant contact during his years in the white house. i thought the filmmakers did a powerful job in this particular portrait of racial dynamics

within the walls of the executive mansion. as i discussed with eric phoner during the interview of civil war times and the length of our discussion was cut to fit the magazine. i remember distinctly defending tony kushner who can well defend himself and talking about the difficulty of a screenwriter squeezing everything in historians don't take into account. i did a very brief stint trying to write for the very small screen, pitching and being hired to write made for tv movies during the 1990s. what i learned was how colab brative the film industry was and how challenging and impossible it is to protect and protect accuracy or authenticity. eric rightly pointed out we face constraints as writers and cannot complain to critics who take us to task saying we had to leave things out. the contraband scenes that remain on the cutting floor of

the lincoln project do not excuse the absence and opportunities for exploring the african-american presence in washington during 1865. i would say the arc of the film's narrative does create complications most historians have never contemplated, confronted or finessed. how many of us would like our manuscript to go before a focus group. if you think that's what a peer-reviewed manuscript is, you're very naive and i'm sad because it's a much more difficult ordeal. i have participated in round tables and in debates informally, no shouting matches yet. i think all the discussion of spielberg's lincoln contributes to our seeking more and better interpretations of the complexities of race within our larger culture as well as on-screen. i must confess social media has also had a powerful influence on me when i found myself embedded in a debate over interpreting

"django" on a facebook conversation with two scholars. i was enlightened and enraged when scholars commented and debated a lively fashion the merits of tarantino's film. i have written a review that appreciates a 2012 film abraham lincoln vampire hunter taking it at face value. i found the 3d distracting but the narrative was compelling slave holders being portrayed as blood suckers who drained the life out of enslaved persons for their unholy empire struck a chord. of course, i would have a weakness for any film that feature featured two women, marilyn con and harriet tubman. but dick did not boast as tarantino did of the truth of his slavery. he was clearly fantasizing. on balance i was not taken by

tarantino's cinematic film. "django" is a frame by frame freak i freakish omage. it did include insights, german slave master, german speaking con cu been in. the powerful drive of couples to reunite despite obstacles. i could go on and on but these would be measured against the gory and introducing into the antebellum imaginary landscape. this landscape as megan pointed out had a 425 million worldwide box office compared to julie dash's more compelling 1991 portrait, "daughters in the dust" which did 1$1.6 million i sales. i don't think we really think about things in terms of box office but we need to think of the way multiplex affects things

in historic imagination and begun to dominate culture. for many of us sit ing this room, the topic of slavery has been part of our work for decades. has any imagination had the film engagement of "12 years a slave," not for those in everyday life. and the lincoln studies i affectionately dubbed linco lincolnistas and even we were amazed at the mast out pouring of daniel day-lewis's par trayal of the 16th president. i have debated the opening scene of "lincoln" i thought was a great slight of cinematic canned. when a fantastic british actor who also appeared in "the butler" but in "lincoln" he appears as corporal ira clark and repeats lincoln's words back

to him of the gettysburg address after an exchange lincoln had with black soldiers. from the pages of the "new york times" to civil war history. accuracy, authenticity, value and damage over african-american issues has been widely discussed. the blogosphere has been erupting with praise and commentary concerning solomon northrop's story but none outshow cased than yango more than steve mcqueen. this is pay back when artist carol walker tried to inject dis dense to the overwhelming interpretation of northrup as hero trying to introduce patsy's perspective she was crowded out and cut off by her male co-interviewees. the actress playing patsy not only won an oscar for her

performance, she has won a showcase to project a platform for discussing african-american women in the culture. the black women and hollywood awards ceremony on youtube offers a wide examination of her talents and politics. in a recent review of the film, "bel "bell "belle," i commented on a scene in which the actor playing a lead 18th century mixed race woman raised in the home of lord so somer-set in the english countrysi countryside staer áhp &hc% as if it might scour away. it certainly echos the speech and countless african-american girls and women. this week we mourn the loss of ruby dee activist, someone who

recognized the stereolimitations for african-american actors, sperkly women. she spent a lifetime struggling against boundaries. she had a luminous role in 1961, "raisin in the sun," a remarkable performance in the miniseries, "roots" and she herself commented on the limitations on her during her five decade career only nominated for an oscar in 2008 for ridley scott's "american gangster." i remember her interpretation on one of the slave narratives she was one of the dozen actors who contributed to the 2003 documentary "unchained memories" we can learn from her half century of her craft, you contribute and disseminate and struggle with the media to put complex interpretations and may see a future generation reap

rewards and might even see honoring for those who came before you and yourself. yesterday's opening plenary discussed the beguilement of archives. many of us are equally be guiled by the dark cinema, just as seth is a be guiled optimist. i'm proclaiming myself as a cinematic pessimist. [ laughter ] >> i've been teaching on icons of late moving my classroom from australia to texas. and i've been struck how students of american history, particularly students abroad look to films to help them understand the american past. rather than disputing zwlskse i think it's better to interrogate these tales and legends. scholars and history are interlocking the information and many have worked so long in archives and classroom to try and convey time and place.

we have at our disposal incredible films and performances which speak powerfully. screen and interpretations of slavery like so many aspects of america's past will continue to blossom with or without the academy. those committed to reaching a wider audience have to make ourselves accessible, whatever the cost despite reservations and continue to pass the popcorn as well as judgment. thank you. [ applause [ applause ] >> sorry i threw that vampire at you. >> that's interesting. we'll talk about that later. good afternoon. my opening remarks focus principally on the contribution to "12 years a slave" and other films, film about slavery and also particularly about his

portrayal of women in the film. steve mcqueen's significant contribute to "sla"slave" throu his oscar winning "12 years a slave is not due to a leap forward in depictions of a slave's life dramatically or characterization. his version of northrop's story is not notable because it's the first to render its audience and unsympathetic view of america's most notorious if not unsympathetic institution from the purge of a black person thrown into its horrowing deaths. that's seen in "roots" and in "onstad." neither is "12 years a slave" going to be a classic because of the sex slave brutalized by her master.

these characterizations have been demonstrated in "beloved" and alex haley's "roots." likewise crucial elements of "12 years a slave," con cu been in eliza and her counter image "mistress shaw both are found in the courage to love. many were stunned to view the accurate portrayal of violence and cruelty of slave mistresses this was more than adequately rendered by susan george in richard flasher's 1975, "mandingo." moreover solomon himself in mcqueen's portrayal as a striking image of black manhood is a worthy protagonist. so, too, were others. all of these important elements of african and african-american slave life have been part of tv and big screen movies since at

least the 1970s. we hear from john earlier, of course. still, steve mcqueen's "12 years a slave" was a major contribution because it problem lis the first hollywood production to incorporate some version of all these charactes s and scenarios of southern u.s. slavery in one film and we haven't discussed the film that comes from -- depicts slavery in other parts of the atlantic world. i does so more ungrinchingly stamping the institutions and its benefactors with the savage violent brutality, physical, psychological and sexual that leave no room for excuses or apologies or civilized comprehension. "12 years a slave" is a master work, stunning cinematography and cast and gut-wrenching story moving and suspenseful and raging and eventually uplifting. still, it is a flawed and

incomplete master work. this should come as a surprise, how could one film view a 250-year-old institution involving millions of persons and different cultural backgrounds to say nothing of racial and gender differences who worked and resided in an ever expanding landscape that encompassed hundreds of thousands of miles. john ritually and steve mcqueen's -- ritley -- that comprise sudden slave life however is not the only problem that underlines the film's effectiveness of slavery. the screenwriter, john ritter, who also won an oscar and the n intricacies of the institution and those touched by it left tale-tale signs not only portrayals or lack of them of a slave community, slave

resistance and slave labor and diverse rows of slave women but inaccurate contextization and betrayal of lives of the free people of color and solomon northrop's of the flee north and looking at a farmer that was not very wealthy, that is epps. as a result, the film's viewing audience is left to believe mistakenly that the slaves on various plantations and farms which sol omon lived did not hae close ties to one another or function as communal units and slave resistance was rare an experience con finds to the actions of men and free men in the anti-bellum were indeed free and equal to their white neighbors. this is a dramatically told biography that lacks the nuance story development and later

characterization this important first account of slavery demands. catherine, you have served as a consultant for film and i want you to know they did not use a historical consultant on that film at all. so, yes, i will slam him. solomon northrop's autobiography has a rich pallet of southern slave woman hood. how well does steve mcqueen capture solomon a's "12 years a slave." it turned out eliza, a con cu been in epitomizes a lost so many slave women and young endure through sale. eliza had believed her sexual relationship with her owner would protect her and her family since he had promised to free all of them. instead, she and her children are sold separately and she is never able to see them again.

eliza mourned her loss bitterly through the saga as well as steve mcqueen's film adaptation. in the movie version eliza becomes a symbol of the devastating impact slavery had on social life and identity and depl deploys eliza's defeat that she rejects. eliza is utterly vanquished unable to move past her loss to survive long enough for the hopeful day of freedom solomon is determined to have despite the hardships he has to endure. the black bond of woman hood has been captured repeatedly. "uncle tom's cabin," and many others, for example frame fictionalized and docudrama depictions of personal

devastation. je screenwriters and directors have portray portrayed heart wrenching scenes, like the loss of kizi, for example and they convey to the audience the psychological institution and scenes of sadistic whippings such as in "roots" and the whipping to death of the captured slave woman whose baby has to be delivered postmortem. the only women in the post "roots" era that rivals the beleaguered slave mother is a sexualized slave woman particularly the slave con cu been in can be seen in characters of kizzy and ruth and bet betsy "in the courage to love." betty and sally in the film,

sally hemmings, "an american scandal" and a 1975 film "mandin "mandingo" and "queen." noting the concubi ne is an antagonist producing multiple image of enslaved woman hood. northrop in insisted centralizing the slave woman as victim and mcqueen does not. in the latest hollywood movies that have taken on african-american slavery, the concubine not surprisingly remains the most important black female character. consider the roles are roles of the films. in "lincoln," the concubine of

famed abolitionist thaddeus stevens and another once a concubine are the only two women of characters. likewise, in quentin tarantino's blockbuster "django unchained" are either concubines or prostitu prostitutes or on their way to being. while steve mcqueen's story of enslaved women has recovery from tarantino's, he adopts his favorite hollywood trobe of a black woman bound to powerful white men in "12 years a slave" and as such, eliza is not the only con cu been in -- in -- concubine. all the enslaved wom are concubi

concubines. certainly, there is some merit in the inclusion of some of these women's stories in any realistic film about slavery. most enslaved women were sexually harassed and/or abused yet this abuse did not all define their lives. this point is one in which mcqueen fails to make for in this film he offers no counter or additional images of women's lives nor multi-dimensional views of the women as slaves. and they often succeed add life beyond the lash and grasp of masters and mistresses. solomon emphasizes more, their amazing labor capacity and their resistant strategies.

why doesn't mcqueen? thank you. [ applause [ applause ] >> thank you so much. now, we have a little bit of time, i think, if you all would like to discuss amongst yourselves or respond to elements of each other's comment comments. >> i didn't like "lincoln the vampire slave," while it does suggest slaveholders are blood sucking, you know, it also only portrays slaves as vampire meat. there is nothing else that they do, they just are kindd

and having a bell that ends up in them being sucked to death. so -- [ laughter ] >> sorry. >> not a happy -- >> my husband loved it, though, i have to say. my husband absolutely loved it and i absolutely hated it. >> there you go. i still think it's -- i know for a fact that tony krushner was very crushed to have this film come out the year before his film. he wanted to be able to say his film was the first film in 40 years to look at lincoln. at the same time, i think if you really believe abraham lincoln vampire hunter" was a film about lincoln, instead i see it as a film about legends and fantasies. this young eastern european director using the trope of american history. once in a while he hit something i found really enjoyable.

most of the time i felt i was being hit by the whip in the 3d and didn't. part of it is that even a rambling vampire hunter got people debating and discussing. so much of the time, it gives us an opportunity. that npr moment they will call you up and say, is it accurate or inaccurate? of course, movies aren't meant to be accurate. is it authentic -- i'm glad you brought up steve mcqueen. if the director projects a certain vision for his film and wants to defend it, then i think we often can debate it. i'll be honest, my greatest concern with steve mcqueen is i was living in the uk and i kept hearing him on interviews repeatedly before the film came out. he would say direct quote, it's a film about love. >> right. i was sort of okay with that until i listened to the rest of

the interview. it wasn't a film abo about -- northrop, he claimed it was about epps and patsy. >> right. >> i went, whoo whoo, let's have a time out. i don't think i'm addressing that as a scholar, addressing that as a feminist. therefore, i also can say there have been -- he also said, by the way, he thought the role of the planner, played by benedict cumb cumber -- he was the most evil character and the evil argument. however, both of those things allow uses a scholars or us as commentate ors to jump in and critique. anything that allows that kind of ability, thank you, filmmakers for being so -- so fantastic in your claims. so we can jump on and certainly make claims that these aren't

good. you, for example, plotted there are times when a lot of films came out and when no films came out. i will ask you, do you think a bad film therefore should not have been made? >> yes, i do. i do. >> that's fine. you're not -- you're from l.a. how can you think that? >> that's how i think that. >> that's a business town. >> steve mcqueen is a very interesting person. he does a couple of things i find very annoying. one of them is he really denies the fact people have done any film on slavery before. he says repeatedly -- i saw him at an event for b.e.t., when it came out on premiere with the actors and writer and all that he would say repeatedly, this is the first time a film like this has ever been made and the first time we're looking at slavery. i said what happened to the other "beloved" and -- and he

would completely deny any had done anything worthwhile until this film first and foremost and secondly, he repeatedly said no one except someone from britain could do this film, a black person from britain and a black woman not born in the united states could play patsy i think is absolutely ridiculous as well. and thirdly because he didn't do his research and didn't have a historian work with him, he would say repeatedly the story between epps and patsy was a love story. stop. no. it was. the guy was crazy. he was brutal. he was on the frontier working really hard, working with slaves really hard trying to make it. and so he was very sadistic. this doesn't have anything to do with love. i think he really flipped back the time in terms of looking at these relationships across the racial line. when he sees it himself as a love relationship, although thankfully it doesn't come

across that way in the film. you know? >> uh-huh. >> there was, discovering the women in slavery had a piece about mirra a slave, a woman who was who was tortured. >> exactly. >> in north carolina. >> we all have historical examples but part of it is when you put a film together. i take your point but i would also like to say that i did feel that his film was an artistic achievement. >> i did, too. >> his film was amazing. i will be showing it to students. >> i will be, too. >> at the same time when you mentioned the box office issue megan i found so many of my friends saying can i go see this? will it upset me too much? i said, yes. you will be upset. yes, you must go to see it. in a way i thought it was interesting that people were questioning when they're going to go see, oh, i don't know, arnold and people like that, you know, in other words i will say also on jango that i thought it was quite interesting in terms

of male sides that samuel jackson did the most amazing job, who knew it was him when you first saw the film yet he was never singled out or featured because of the political incorrectness he played. so the politics of jango. quentin tarrant inoue said there was no film that dealt with slavery as he did and he particularly went after "roots" which was an interesting issue. he was in a way saying that was, you know, a soap opera. now i'm doing the real thing. but all of these i think allow us to debate it not in terms of film but in terms of popular perception. >> well, i don't think "jango" is about slavery. it's a fantasy. it's a fantasy. i couldn't find one grain of reality in that film that dealt

with slavery at all. i looked at it and i laughed at it. i thought it was really funny. you know, and interesting. the costumes were nice. but for me it was just not a film about slavery at all. i know quentin tarantino was upset because of what historians wrote about that and said it wasn't about slavery and he seemed to be upset when steve mcqueen's film won for best picture and people applauded it as this great film. i do think as i said in my comments that it's a master work. without a doubt it's an incredible film and achievement. you know, but there are some things, nothing is perfect and so i look at particularly the way in which he deals with women because in solomon's narrative, it's very clear in which the way that patsy is framed, depicted. he talks -- he doesn't mention love. love is not part of it. it's not what he's talking about. he is talking about a man who

owns her body, wants to own her soul. and feels it's his right to do so and acts accordingly. but i was really interested in the early films that you talked about, john. because i really had forgotten about them. i teach -- well some of them -- because i teach a class on slave narrative, novel and film. i looked at the early "uncle tom's cabin" for example. and some of the other ones. but i had forgotten shirley temple. you know? i love shirley temple. the shirley temple version. i had seen "song of the south" and i saw it as a child in the south growing up. so it was really cool to hear and i am going to include those when i teach in the fall now. fantastic. >> it's also interesting to me that they raise no hackles, nobody. we think of the lost cause, nostalgia, sentiment for slavery as being a southern thing. it was an american thing. >> right. >> hollywood had no qualms about

making them. nobody had any qualms about seeing them and treating them as classics. and making them box office hits. of course there was some controversy with both "birth of a nation" and "gone with the wind" but it was naacp, relatively minor, a drop in the bucket compared to the great acclaim and popularity. that they enjoyed for multiple replays over the years. that tells us something. >> it does. >> because we keep doing "uncle tom's cabin" i think at least three times, as a film probably but i think post it will be interesting to see now to see uncle tom's cabin done again. it would. >> as you say, he does dedicate his book to harry beecher stowe, solomon northrup, and then harriet beecher stowe in which she defends her book and document that comes the year

after, she sites him as saying this is the red river in louisiana that i'm speaking about so there is a kind of connective tissues between the two of them. >> another thing "12 years a slave" does, we see slaves working. >> we do. >> pictured in the cotton fields and the sugar -- >> you've got to see it. does anybody in the audience know that film? it's really a fabulous film. it wasn't a big box office film at all. but it is magnificent. >> they are harvesting cotton in april in the opening scenes of "gone with the wind" so historical inaccuracy. >> much more cinematic. >> when you look and see that he only has eight slaves including solomon northrup then you realize how in some ways the

film is just a little off in terms of it and then his house is on the national registry. >> it's in louisiana. >> it is -- i can't pronounce it correctly. it is in that parish but it is a small, tin roof, roofd house, you know, so we lose this sense of why epps is really pushing his slaves so hard because he is on the frontier, you know, on this sugar cotton frontier. he's got a few slaves only. his first home is actually owned by his wife's uncle and so he's a man on the make in other words, you know, he's that yoman farmer trying to break out and become a planter. that's a really interesting part of a story that we miss because

we see cumberbotch and he is clearly a planter and has everything. so people say therefore he is kind and gentle and whatever. we miss out this guy who we just see as a crazy person is also someone who is pushing everyone beyond recognition of what is humanity to produce all of this cotton so he can then move up to where cumberbotch is. >> you rarely see small slave holders. >> you do. >> i think journey -- >> i didn't know that film. i'm definitely going to see that. >> you can also see the skin game. make sure you see the correct version because if your students look up the french one it will not work well in discussions. >> i'm not losing tenure over that. >> right. >> it seems this would be a good time to turn to the audience for

questions. if you have a question, please raise your hand. yes, jeremy? stand up. here comes the mike. >> jeremy neely missouri state university. to pick up on your comment about small slave holders one film i haven't heard mentioned yet is "right with the devil" the 1999 film which i think one of the most interesting characters is holt whom the pro confederate guerrillas with william contrell used as a spy in various capacities. >> i haven't seen that film but i'll go see it next week. ride with the devil? >> teaching it i think as i've taught it in northern ireland, they love it because it is about ethnicity and religion. and i've seen and also it is about the, why one is fighting the war beyond slavery. >> the missouri kansas frontier. >> and you have the ex-slave who

is with his master on, you know, on the battle front in "hiding guerrilla" and it is a very complicated, interesting tale. he is telling it with his version of the war which is powerful. we can come up with 20 more -- the beguiled, wonderful clint eastwood film. but with african-american women, white women, more women than men. like it should be. there aren't enough parts or roles for women but i think, and you're mentioning for example "ride withabv+vbrzs the devil" s refrakting through looking at the roles of women and i thought jewel was a particularly weak character, the actress who played -- i am just saying that often i think the -- as looking at film they're often just looking, here we want a big

screen. we want the kids to come in. i've written about bell as being a bosom movie that you're trying to get heaving bosoms and get young teenagers in to see austin, mixed race austin. >> that's what i thought. you should see it with "pride and prejudice" with kyra knightly and then -- >> but these film makers are much like the publishers we encounter today. what is the state of the business? what's its future? can we attract people to it? i think it's good for us to be very critical but a period, making period is very expensive. film makers don't like it. television doesn't like it. you know, if someone comes to you saying, we want to do a reality show set on an antebellum southern scene, you might just as i have said, great. because part of it is anything that i think gets the debate and

discussion out there my sons came up with the idea a few years ago i should take plantation mistress to hollywood and say real housewives of the old south. and i know -- but at the same time we joke and we -- but i still say i am really serious, the debate and for example the mel gibson film "the patriot" you know, we all hate it. at the same time you are sitting there and these little freshmen come in and why are you here? what is your interest? and they saw a film. part of it is to get people excited about the past even if it's not our past, nobody's p.a.t., some fantasy past. >> this brings up a question of what constitutes a film about slavery, right? would you think of "ride with the devil" as a film about slavery or "cold mountain?"

no. there are slaves in those films but they're not -- they are very marginal and there almost to sort of establish -- cold mountain had no slave, no black voices. you see a black woman drugged being carried. you see people on the road who nod. and i think that was in my mind a sub conscious cold mountain view of the world. we know they're there but this is our film. we will have our film. >> you see nicole kidman taking refreshments out to the slaves but she never gets past the porch. but charles does such interesting things with his references to slavery and the attitudes of the mountaineers heading off to war and the role of slaves and slave holders in motivating that. i think he missed an opportunity maybe to do more with that in the film. >> symbolically it is interesting because people would

deny the importance of slaves in their lives. >> oh, so true. >> you know, so on that level i mean i know you've gone through probably millions of planters' letters. i've only gone through thousands. i know you've gone through millions. >> years older than you. she said that. we're the same age probably. at any rate you see they och know don't speak about their slaves. they say they have 250 slaves and there is nothing about them in there. it is kind of an interesting view or perspective of the way in which the slave holders sometimes saw their lives. which is when writing to their loved ones and families not really concerned about the slaves who they're doing things all around them. >> they're also using their slaves to write to one another

and tell stories so part of it is we come up with hundreds of great, interesting stories. >> right. >> where is the film on harriet jacob? where is the film on harriet tubman? >> right. >> plenty of harriets we could write films about. i'm saying where, we think of these stories. when i was working in the '90s in hollywood and was in a meeting talking about these wonderful stories this was preamistad i remember and it was talking about all these great stories. i got involved in a project very painful about richard m. johnson and they kept pushing the story about his concubine and daughters and it was like, would it, could it, should it? at that early age i couldn't bear because when you say you're consulting you go to meetings and then the film comes out. >> right. >> some people they do invite in to look at it but my first viewing of lincoln was at a premiere in gettysburg. i just closed my eyes and crossed my fingers.

>> it was great. >> but you do not know that there will be something that is -- but at the same time i think we have to keep trying. in the '90s i proposed several films with black women as protaganists and was told the three black actresses that could carry a television film and at that time none of them were, you know, their cue levels weren't high enough. that is why i introduced into my discussion the way in which i think african-american actresses have been so marginalized. to have someone like lupita come forward and be so political in her speaking about this role. i'd also like to mention women think of the portraits of why are women, african-american enslaved women being portrayed by nonamerican born women? i mean, it is very interesting because i think our relationship to -- the legacy of slavery is

still very much a part of the business culture reflected in american films. what will make money? if slavery makes money they're going to be making films about slave slavery. that is really true. if presidential biopicks make money they'll be making biopicks. look for van buren at your multi-plex. >> you shared years ago, do you remember this, a screenplay of celia a slave. i don't know how many of you know that story. true story of a missouri slave, young girl. constantly raped by her master. had a black lover. ends up killing her master. almost gets away with it. her black slave lover gives her away. leads to a trial in missouri late 1850s in the midst of the border tensions. fascinating story. it was so interesting. you remember the screen play turned it not into her story but the story of her lawyer.

>> right. the lawyer was the center piece that was the hero for defending her. >> because the film business is the bankability. you look at "12 years a slave" and you did call it a hollywood film. i'm glad you did. mcqueen also says without brad pitt playing a role in it would not have been bankable. that kind of thing can go on and people have these wonderful films. the documentary film makers we know working in these areas, you and i know people now and to get a film going, a documentary, takes a decade of raising money. i know spielberg had his meeting with his earliest advisers in 2006 to make "lincoln" so you see it is -- there was a

writer's strike and it had to do not just with schedules but financing. >> liam nissan playing it. >> he was reading the part and there were other people involved at that time. daniel day louis inhabited that. >> it is really important when we look at these films we also look at the films done early in the 1960s, 1970s or 80s for example a lot of films on slavery actually we found on public television for example the first "12 years a slave" i saw on public tv. you know, it was the early film. >> 1991. >> yes. then there was of course a harriet tubman film. >> yes. >> cicely tyson. that's there, too. charlotte for thein. there are all these other films available to us that i think

should be part of the discussion. >> question? >> yes. >> i'm ashley murphy from brown university and i had a question that i think will build on something you all just said and mentioned in your earlier comments. i wonder if you can talk about the role that medium plays. we are all talking about film and i am wondering why there aren't great representations of slavery in television thinking particularly of kind of the current trend for contemporary western so "hell on wheels" or "copper" both of which are shows i really like and everyone should watch them so they keep getting made but also "deadwood" where former slaves appear not until the third season but i wonder why television doesn't seem to lend itself given we are in this supposed renaissance of american tv with all of the

money and attention going there. >> the hatfields and mccoys i believe was the biggest hit that made a lot of money which did well commercially. i take your point. i remember watching all the made for tv movies many of them dealing with the south -- freedom road with mohammed ali written by howard fast. a lot was made during -- >> biography of miss jane pitt. >> right. during the '70s you did have a lot of these films and some of the portraits of the period i thought were very wrenching and amazing. i certainly remember the first lynching on the small screen and thinking, you know, this is an amazing moment. at the same time when i think i was in the 1990s and i was often pitching stories and ideas i remember very distinctly which shocked me so much being told

nah, a story we were trying to put across was too dangerous for television because black and white. a con cue period but not modern. anything even in the 1990s might offend southern advertisers. that was the idea. in some ways i think television is a medium that responds so commercially and waits for, you know, like something happens in film and then five to ten years later it becomes okay. i'm thinking of this, i've been oust the country for almost ten years and i notice it in the language on television what is now acceptable. wait. they can see that on tv? that kind of thing. >> on the other hand it used to be to get anything made with black characters historically as the prominent characters, the center piece, had to be done on television. thinking about maia angelo's the

caged bird singing. not a feature film. back in the '80s i guess tv was a backup where you could afford to do things like that. "roots" of course. >> the last, i guess, the last episode of the first series of "roots" still had more viewership than any other mini series period in u.s. television history. that was really the moment. you also have to think about the social, the time in which it was done. it was in the civil rights movement and people wanted to know more about african-american history. they wanted more ability to talk in a way they didn't have to go and read ten books or whatever so people would look at those film and it was really a moment as was the history itself in which there was a lot of discourse across the racial divide, you know. and everyone was talking about

various things. so now we have a time, very odd in terms of the way it is represented on television. we can have something like scandals for example but then we can't necessarily have a film about nat turner. you know. and so it's really interesting that you could have this black woman in the white house in many ways running the white house, the dream of sally hemmings but you can't have, you know, you can't have a film about nat turner -- on the small screen again for pds. we're in this kind of odd place politically i think and socially with regard to race that i wouldn't know whether the figures you gave about the large screen now the small screen

producers want to take a chance doing those kind of films so often times the small screen takes the cue from the large screen. it would be interesting to see. >> and i know they were going to make a mini series about the children of pride which was derailed by "roots". "gone with the wind" was shown for the first time on television in the fall of 1976. in november. not on thanksgiving weekend but another weekend. and its two showings are still in the top ten of broadcast audiences but "roots" the last episode was higher. i think in terms of the dialogue and popular#du,"+4culture you h "gone with the wind" rearing up again just a cultural icon and roots coming along and replacing it and interestingly the children of pride scuttles back into -- also when are we going to get the many more complex

stories to tell both sides so we don't have the evil master. >> right. >> and as we know all the mistresses were evil because we watch all these films. we see their roles and there isn't any portrait that isn't stereotyped. that's why mandingo has such power because it is taking gone with the wind and turning it inside out and making it a grand saga. i did see more hands. >> i have to go back and see mandingo. i haven't seen it since the '70s. oh, my gosh. how did that get on television? >> get letters from parents about the tuition they pay. >> i know we're all interested in scholars that we want film makers to be interested in us but i have a hunch the film makers are in fact really

interested. the reason they want you as a consultant is they actually want that to be authentic and real. so when i watch a lot of these films i'm struck by did they have a kind of strange engagement but it is often a little bit off. when i watch a film it feels like a damage argument to me. when i watch jango i feel like okay. this is agency. not what i meant but in some kind of strange way there is something going on in the popular culture that kind of busted open a lot of the way we've written history and it is about breaking up the kind of cannon where you had two

traditions, and it came to me in james mcbride's novel where he portrays fredrik douglass as a buffoon. so i think part of when we watch these things, we feel like they are just busting a cannon open and in some ways maybe that is a good thing but something about it is really disturbing. i wanted to hear people talk about do you feel like -- how does it relate to the way we write history? >> it is interesting you mentioned mcbride's novel. you all know good lord bird that within the national book award this year. i haven't taught it yet but i have a number of former students reading it and getting in touch saying it is one that ought to be taught. it's been optioned and is going to be made into a film. might be the next film on slavery. it's a 12-year-old boy disguised as a girl taken in by john brown

in kansas and follows him all the way through. we see harper's ferry and meetings with douglass through the eyes of this 12-year-old boy, will smith's son is going to play it on the screen so it is going to get done. it is interesting. what they choose to option, take a fictional book and sort of a parody, almost looks like more in the line of jango more than 12 years a slave. interesting to see what they'll do with john brown on film. >> i hate to disagree with you, anthony, but i think if we brought film makers in to hear our panels to hear people talk and promote their views and scholarship don't you think there's a lot of disagreement among people of interpretations? i am taking this seriously. when the film makers call you they don't want the complexity, the historiography and will

reject the scholar who doesn't give them what they want. >> it strikes me, in other words they are engaging in some way. just on their own terms. >> you know, someone like steve mcqueen has an idea and he found this book. he had an idea. his wife found him the book and he put it all together and that is the narrative and the story and he has his ideas and scenes. i was struck powerfully by spielberg having scenes in his mind telling the historians what he saw. was it possible? could it be? what was the weather at the gettysburg address? could the flag have been flying? and the several hundred page screen play gets shrunk down to a few months. so there are ways. they're saying can mary lincoln wear this? can she wear that? well, she was actually wearing black. she was in mourning. but the larger authenticity of the film was to portray her as a

vain shopaholic, someone difficult. so she wasn't accurate. if i had been someone who said, no. she must wear the black, otherwise it's inaccurate, you know, i think it would have -- just trying to give you concrete examples. i don't think it is quite so mean spirited they don't want to lear it but i am saying i found most people doing period pieces have their ideas in mind, have their scripts ready for the stamp of approval. can you go through and take the three things we will have to eliminate or change? you know, it depends of course. many other film makers as i said especially documentarians are amazing the way they absorb and they consider they are taking a course and i am very grateful

someone like tony did read so widely and was able to bring lincoln to life through words that i felt like i was listening in to the people who i knew but he was interpreting them in ways i didn't know and i think that is a sign of a gift most of us don't have in our writing and should try to admire these moments, these scenes at the beginning of "12 years a slave" the opening scene. i'm just saying i've had more conversations with people about it and that someone could make a film that so powerfully opens, about gender, about race, about slavery, and yet who is going to tell you what it's about? what i'm trying to get at is i think that can be the power of a work of art and sometimes i think it is very deliberate to not have it reflect good

historical practice. to be more complex and open ended and maybe at times just plain wrong like in "glory" when you have someone riding down the film slashing at watermelons. really? in massachusetts in april? once again at the same time the slicing of the water melons by this leader of african-american troops has a larger meaning. sometimes we have to let these people have their fantasies except for the vampires. >> it's an excellent question because i think the film makers i've met and the ones who write the scripts are really smart people. they're really quite intelligent but in a way that they've been trained differently from the way we have so that they are interested in, you know, the impact visually and what people hear. and the over arching story or

theme or thesis they want to put forward and so whenever they come to historians it's not as they're writing the work. it is usually after they've already worked out in their mind what the opening scene is going to look like. and the story holds together well for them. for what they like to portray in one way and then on the other side of it is working with the producers to find out whether they'll finance so you have to take into consideration what the producers want to see in this film, too. so they kind of are very collaborative and we're only one piece, a small piece of the collaboration because they do come in with this. it's interesting because i want to know whether or not steve mcqueen actually shot the opening sequence for "12 years a slave" which i found horrific because there is nowhere in --

okay -- using solomon northrup to masturbate herself. that is totally in somebody's imagination. but i do know most opening sequences are not filmed by the director. there are companies that do only opening scenes for them and closing scenes. they used to just do the titles and credits but now they actually do the opening sequence and of course the director has to say okay. check that off or whatever and the producer too. i wonder if he himself shot that sequence because usually they're no longer shot by the directors. he'd have to check it off you know but i wonder if that was something that he in terms of thinking how it's going to open that he is going to open in this kind of way or somebody who was in this who does sequences and sort of gets the audience, really draws the audience in says have you thought about

putting a scene in like this? they have to get approval but no longer have actually complete control over the opening sequence. >> one advantage he had is he is drawing entirely on a single source. >> right. >> single narrative. single voice, perspective narrative in which he lifts whole scenes. >> he does. >> the book is remarkable whereas spielberg and amistad and lincoln are drawing on so much more complex, multifaceted, multi dimensional issues and events where the input of historians i wonder would matter more either to spielberg or any film maker trying to do something. >> well, i know steve mcgene is visually driven so people think about his other films. they talk about him as a visual artist behind the camera and that is more important.

i think spielberg is much more interested in accuracy than a lot of directors are and that he is in some ways much more like a historian i think in the way in which he decides to depict something on screen than i think steve mcqueen is who is really also just about the art of making a visually stunning film. mostly along with an important story. >> so recently spielberg was given an award by the lincoln and soldiers institute because his film is story telling and history and the speaking and showing of amistad has been a lot of debate i've been involved in i point out that i remember taking my younger son to