>> he doesn't act on those things and scarlet would certainly do so. >> doesn't he kiss her a couple of times. >> he tripped and kissed her. i think those things happen sometimes. he's supposed to be this honorable guy. he's supposed to be, right? part of the movie does sort of put him in an awkward position. where is an honorable guy in the post war south? >> in the beginning we think that he's like -- he's like the bad guy but you know no one rally wanted hill. he facing his way in a skacarle life but he also loved his daughter. at the beginning i didn't like him. at the end he loved his

daughter. i think that also goes with someone and how this appeals to women and obviously it draws women in as well. >> so where does all of this leave us? we're almost out of time. where does all of this leave us? i think in some ways red and scarret are potentially the most historically accurate actors. they are appealing figures both j of them.

in 1939, millions of americans who might think that they would be marching off to war before long as well. scarlet's rather heady mixture of flawed, passion, endurance, determination, experiences did peeled to many people. the story in review of the film pointed out one of the earliest reviewers the novel noted it's one of the virtues of her book that she presents the myth of the lost cause without being taken in by it or asking us to accept it. that she makes cheer reasons for the vitality and ultimate demise. we can see this is not true of the movie. it overindulges and wallows in lost cause roamanticism.

she also describes reconstruction as a never 18ing picnic for lazy and dangerous kneeing oe negros. there was a land of cavaliers and cotton. the prologue sets the viewer up for a theme that pervades this film. a theme of confederate roamanticism. that theme is the real problem with this movie about antebbel um south.

>> history her is the back drop for a soap opera. it's an idealized portrait of the oidealized south as if it were reality. the plantation maj certified that the old smith mentioned in the prologue had been a unique place where all white southerners were educated plantation owners romantic and refined were they loved their slaves and their slaves involved them where the north began the war forcing the south to go to far. this confederate -- the author's

picture is really the product of the pervasive writings of earlier 20th scholars and his students on plantation slavery and african-americans most notably that the south was full of kind masters who had the loyalty of the happy slays. it was a way that was dominated in the earliest half of the 20th century. to be fair, they were focused on capturing white audiences who had shown great interest in showing plantation epics like birth of the nation in the 1900s. the movie is extremely useful for us as a primary force of what whites, immigrants born wanted to believe about slavery and slavery society.

it's not surprising that there are no attempts of the racial struggles of the era or use of blacks as caricatures or is there any reflections of the attempts by black americans to challenge then. segregation laws preconvenieven from being there. popularity came from a racialized desire from a race relations were simpler. that was a time that never existed. that doesn't min ipize the adeal. the movie never addresses the

real prob lelems of slavery. the movie is an homage to the p perspective of the confederate apologists. if it wasn't so popular it wouldn't be a problem. we could just leave it as a relic of its time. but that's not the case. as long as it continues to be so important to some people, it is screeria -- nigeria. -

senate, here on cspan we compliment that coverage by showing you the most relevant congressional hearings and public affairs events and on the weekends home to american history tv including six unique series. the civil war's 150th anniversary. american artifacts, touring museums and historic sites toat% discover what artifacts reveal about america's past. history book shelf an the presidency, lectures in history with top college professors delving in america's past and our new series real america,

featuring archival government and educational films from the 1930s through the 70s. cspan 3, created by the cable te industry and funded by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us in authd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >>wh while congress son break ts month we're showing programs normally shown on cspan 3 on weekends. we begin shortly with ans. panea history professors and their t review ofhe films since the 193, including the movies mandigo, amistad and 12 years of slave. then in an hour and a half, professor evaluates the film "li lincoln followed by an evaluation of gone with the

wind.nce th it's been 150 years since the u.s. civil war and a number of events are under way this year and next to mark the occasion. over the next few hours we're going to take a look at hollywood's perception of the hw issues. now erace panel of history professors traces the evolution of slavery. this is from the society of civil war historians by an annual meeting in baltimore. >> in the past two years, three feature films whose explicit focus is american slavery and em emancipation and all of them profitable.chained" django unchained and lincoln mio made n$182 million.coln" ma 12 years of slave only made $56s million but it only cost $20 million to make so it made twice

as much as its budget which is roughly the same to the other two mill films. this miniofeb upsurge has provo debate and discussion about thee depiction of slavery in film and other forms of visual media in television and documentaries any youtube shorts and different i series. we're continuing that conversation today. all of our panelists are fierc scholars of the american south v and of race and gender. they have also written s about, reviewed, taught courses on andg consults for films about slavery. catherine clinton has been teaching at queen's university s since 2006t but will be come bb to the united states this fall l to be thle professor of u.s. history at the university of exs

tex texas, san an totonio and writt s of hairat tub it's man. professor clinton also serves on the advisory committees to the lincoln bicentennial commission ands virginia commission and a board member of civil history, h theater in washington d.c. and s also serves as historical will consultant to stephen inscoe spielberg's movie lincoln. >> he is the author the mounta n masters, slavery and sectional crisis in north carolina. race, war, and remembrance in the south. south

he's the core author of the horf heart of confederate apple aal n appalachian. he's currently the editor of the georgiadi encyclopedia. professor recently completed a book entitled riding the south but the south. explorations in southern autobiography and is currently y working on a book on film.tevenn brendav: stephenson is a profer at ucla where she has authored at ward winning monographs life in black and white.k-and- the contested murder of]ç latosha harlenss justice, gender of the l.a. riots.j her newest work, what is slavery, will be published by e

poliday press in 2016. she's the recipient of many awards including the ford foundation, the smith sownia we institution of women. clearly a group of slackers. >> all right. thank you megan. i think i'm here because i teach a course on slavery in fact, te film and fibbing.ery, we start with the birth of a nation. move throughrt w the several plantation mellow dramas of the 1930s. t films like jesabell, gone with the wind and move onto walt didt

is n is, disney and jump to the era of the 1990s with amistad in 1997, a lesser known film calle' thes journey of august king whih i will talk a little bit about and beloved. tony morrison's film. onup to jango unchained. it hollywood in the 1930s was oo very much odentrenched in the sn of lost cause approaches to slavery. they are background figures. they are supporting casts. masts they are often clear economic nd are serving their matters and mistresses who are also benign. not much had changed by 1946

when walt disney look on uncle remus in a children's film. most of you i'm sure know the song of the south despite the fact that it is not zrib zrdist. it took until the early 70s til before it was banned. was early 70s when walt disney finally mounted -- gave into ey pressure of its political wh incorrectness.at i i haves seen the video. it was smuggled into me from ja japan wherepa you can see it on subtitles.

the japanese are intrigued by i all things southern as well. the subtileds.n i think it is an interesting film because it is a mile tone of sorts as politically correct as it is -- politically incorrect asal it is, it is alsa the first film to take a black character and makece him the central character around which the plot revolves. it also makes him the most sim panel , in t sympathetic character. he out smarts all the whites in the film is very ambivalent.

it is interesting to teach that with students to lookh at the ways it advances and putting a slave center stage and still slr some of they old guard su assumptionsrp about slavery that it it's. things like pinkie, the defiant ones, in the 50s. in the 1960s you get guess who's coming to dinner. in the heat of the night. it pretty much steered clear of slai slavery. that film of the 1970s, mandingo

but with these modern films from the 1990s to the recent films, k thought i'd show out some thingi worth ofsc discussion. i thought with this panel gender right in the get much clay but h in the earlier films slaves are totally desexualized and you dote see men and women together in any kind of household cont. t there are relative alnonissues films like glory and lincoln, and yet there are several other things that do make the plight t of women. two of these put slave women front and center. two women and the journey of

august king one i'm particularl interested this because it's set in appalachia, north carolina.y it is set in 1815 and deals with the escape of a slave girl who's abused by her mother and a man on the way to the market, encounters her, and aids her in her escape. there's a strong attraction manh between them. hel it all remains chased but this h father/owner/lover is determined to get this girl back and goes a

to mount a man to hunt her. there's tremendous resentment at a time in place in which slavera is far more an anomaly than it e is in the mountains of north carolina in that early frontier era of the other is beloved. it's a ghost story. i'm sure most of you know th. it's set in cincinnati and based on the abuses that are only seen in brief flashbacks inflicted on the heroin, and based on the

real life case of g margaret garner in sin icincinnati. in this most emancipation period she's continues to be haunted by an ad adolescent of the infant girl that she murdered. it is a clunky film it was fas fascinating that it was even made in film. i have pew i think part of what they dough so well in jathdjango unchaineds feature female characters take on more pain than men. django is the most macho racial >3ññimandingo.

it's over the an attempt to rescue django's much tormented slave wife played by kerry washington.and in 12 years, it's the harassmens both physical and mental abuse inflicted on patsy by both her master and mistress. new the as you knowi,y earned ao academyr award for the actress who played ñrpatsy. it's one of the few films that has actually documents or dramatized the separation of mothers from their children. as you all remember in the sale,

the auction in which solomo is n is told. is told along with a mother andr two children. she's separated from the two children. solomon becomes the means by which he tries to comfort this d woman paralyzed by grieve at thf loss of this children. os >> it also occurs to me that as central as in giving us a slave voice as a primary force -- american slavery. how rare do we ever see that. his release came by machinations's legal and potential dealings. all brad pitt sets all of this in co

notion. there's not much. the only instance you get of slave escape are that involving woman. one isov in beloved. really one is flashback in crossing the oe one i mentioned already, the journey of august king in which the entire narrative iskintir driven by th hunt and even so typically hollywood, you get the name of e male protaggonist, the tourney of august king rather than the " slave's name. de

despite the fact that there werd little of that translated onto u i think it's very curious that white women really ruled roost of early depictions of slavery f in the 1930s. think of betty davis in jesa jesabell. in song of the south it's an tha eldery widow. in the perhaps most absurd -old example you have a 70-year-old e sheryly temple who spends time

bossing her 70-year-old slaves which students fine appalling. it's only in recent yearsé- th we find cruel masters. the character in 12 years of slave and leonardo dicaprio in django echos back in uncle's tom cabin which appeared before 12 years of slave. he dedicated his harriot. er >> it hamakes sense that it makh you wonder how many of these elements come through in stow's novel published a week before.

that's just an observe. i will leave it at that and turn it over to catherine. [ applause ] >> thank you i want to thank the organizers of this panel for this opportunity to reflect.appu when i first began my work on of the plantation south over 40 years ago, looking at the role p of plantation mistresses insisted that i go see and accompanied me to go see the film mandingo in 1975. was the year it was a top ten box office hit. the scholar later pointed tout o me a billboard in james square with an

mandingo." in my career in this topic, mandingo was a rich rifle, rich availability of religious literature in slavery. mandingo was followed by the publication of "roots" and the 1977 mini series appearing on tv. this year i supervised a thesis, a student writing on the impact of "roots" not just the novel and the film and the first mini series but the multiple mini series that came after it, the phenomenon. he was drawn to this topic because of the current spate of films and media attention on the role of slavery in the american past. appearance of such films as "django" and unchained and "lincoln" and afro british director asante, the film,

"belle." these films not only raised the profile of american history in slavery but profile of academics and scholars not just to debate their work and students within the campus bubble but reach outside the halls of the academy and discuss this with a larger public audience. this intersecretary wits of a t larger questions, our role in society and crisis and academics to prove they are engaged in public service and dialogue. i certainly became aware of the way academics are being invited to play a role in the reception of film during the past few decades, thinking of campaigns to woo civil war scholars with the screenings of "cold mountain." certainly one of the best gambits of all was to include scholars on-screen as extras in the 1983 film "adaptation of killer angels gettysburg." even if we are brought on for

advisors we may have crucial contributions to the screening of slavery. many of my colleagues had strident objections to blacks in spielberg's "lincoln" or interpretation or omission of the american african presence. i myself was impressed with the film and know it had limitations and nevertheless overwhelmed by its artistry and impact and in disclosure i did consult on the costumes and met with sally field more obsessed on lincoln than she was. i appreciated the complexity of the two african-americans with whom lincoln had the most constant and significant contact during his years in the white house. i thought the filmmakers did a powerful job in this particular portrait of racial dynamics within the walls of the

executive mansion. as i discussed with eric phoner during the interview of civil war times and the length of our discussion was cut to fit the magazine. i remember distinctly defending tony kushner who can well defend himself and talking about the difficulty of a screenwriter squeezing everything in historians don't take into account. i did a very brief stint trying to write for the very small screen, pitching and being hired to write made for tv movies during the 1990s. what i learned was how colab brative the film industry was and how challenging and impossible it is to protect and protect accuracy or authenticity. eric rightly pointed out we face constraints as writers and cannot complain to critics who take us to task saying we had to leave things out. the contraband scenes that remain on the cutting floor of the lincoln project do not

excuse the absence and opportunities for exploring the african-american presence in washington during 1865. i would say the arc of the film's narrative does create complications most historians have never contemplated, confronted or finessed. how many of us would like our manuscript to go before a focus group. if you think that's what a peer-reviewed manuscript is, you're very naive and i'm sad because it's a much more difficult ordeal. i have participated in round tables and in debates informally, no shouting matches yet. i think all the discussion of spielberg's lincoln contributes to our seeking more and better interpretations of the complexities of race within our larger culture as well as on-screen. i must confess social media has also had a powerful influence on me when i found myself embedded in a debate over interpreting "django" on a facebook conversation with two scholars.

i was enlightened and enraged when scholars commented and debated a lively fashion the merits of tarantino's film. i have written a review that appreciates a 2012 film abraham lincoln vampire hunter taking it at face value. i found the 3d distracting but the narrative was compelling slave holders being portrayed as blood suckers who drained the life out of enslaved persons for their unholy empire struck a chord. of course, i would have a weakness for any film that feature featured two women, marilyn con and harriet tubman. but dick did not boast as tarantino did of the truth of his slavery. he was clearly fantasizing. on balance i was not taken by tarantino's cinematic film.

"django" is a frame by frame freak i freakish omage. it did include insights, german slave master, german speaking con cu been in. the powerful drive of couples to reunite despite obstacles. i could go on and on but these would be measured against the gory and introducing into the antebellum imaginary landscape. this landscape as megan pointed out had a 425 million worldwide box office compared to julie dash's more compelling 1991 portrait, "daughters in the dust" which did 1$1.6 million i sales. i don't think we really think about things in terms of box office but we need to think of the way multiplex affects things in historic imagination and

begun to dominate culture. for many of us sit ing this room, the topic of slavery has been part of our work for decades. has any imagination had the film engagement of "12 years a slave," not for those in everyday life. and the lincoln studies i affectionately dubbed linco lincolnistas and even we were amazed at the mast out pouring of daniel day-lewis's par trayal of the 16th president. i have debated the opening scene of "lincoln" i thought was a great slight of cinematic canned. when a fantastic british actor who also appeared in "the butler" but in "lincoln" he appears as corporal ira clark and repeats lincoln's words back

to him of the gettysburg address after an exchange lincoln had with black soldiers. from the pages of the "new york times" to civil war history. accuracy, authenticity, value and damage over african-american issues has been widely discussed. the blogosphere has been erupting with praise and commentary concerning solomon northrop's story but none outshow cased than yango more than steve mcqueen. this is pay back when artist carol walker tried to inject dis dense to the overwhelming interpretation of northrup as hero trying to introduce patsy's perspective she was crowded out and cut off by her male co-interviewees. the actress playing patsy not only won an oscar for her performance, she has won a

showcase to project a platform for discussing african-american women in the culture. the black women and hollywood awards ceremony on youtube offers a wide examination of her talents and politics. in a recent review of the film, "bel "bell "belle," i commented on a scene in which the actor playing a lead 18th century mixed race woman raised in the home of lord so somer-set in the english countrysi countryside staer áhp &hc% as if it might scour away. it certainly echos the speech and countless african-american girls and women. this week we mourn the loss of ruby dee activist, someone who recognized the stereolimitations

for african-american actors, sperkly women. she spent a lifetime struggling against boundaries. she had a luminous role in 1961, "raisin in the sun," a remarkable performance in the miniseries, "roots" and she herself commented on the limitations on her during her five decade career only nominated for an oscar in 2008 for ridley scott's "american gangster." i remember her interpretation on one of the slave narratives she was one of the dozen actors who contributed to the 2003 documentary "unchained memories" we can learn from her half century of her craft, you contribute and disseminate and struggle with the media to put complex interpretations and may see a future generation reap rewards and might even see

honoring for those who came before you and yourself. yesterday's opening plenary discussed the beguilement of archives. many of us are equally be guiled by the dark cinema, just as seth is a be guiled optimist. i'm proclaiming myself as a cinematic pessimist. [ laughter ] >> i've been teaching on icons of late moving my classroom from australia to texas. and i've been struck how students of american history, particularly students abroad look to films to help them understand the american past. rather than disputing zwlskse i think it's better to interrogate these tales and legends. scholars and history are interlocking the information and many have worked so long in archives and classroom to try and convey time and place.

we have at our disposal incredible films and performances which speak powerfully. screen and interpretations of slavery like so many aspects of america's past will continue to blossom with or without the academy. those committed to reaching a wider audience have to make ourselves accessible, whatever the cost despite reservations and continue to pass the popcorn as well as judgment. thank you. [ applause [ applause ] >> sorry i threw that vampire at you. >> that's interesting. we'll talk about that later. good afternoon. my opening remarks focus principally on the contribution to "12 years a slave" and other films, film about slavery and also particularly about his portrayal of women in the film.

steve mcqueen's significant contribute to "sla"slave" throu his oscar winning "12 years a slave is not due to a leap forward in depictions of a slave's life dramatically or characterization. his version of northrop's story is not notable because it's the first to render its audience and unsympathetic view of america's most notorious if not unsympathetic institution from the purge of a black person thrown into its horrowing deaths. that's seen in "roots" and in "onstad." neither is "12 years a slave" going to be a classic because of the sex slave brutalized by her master. these characterizations have

been demonstrated in "beloved" and alex haley's "roots." likewise crucial elements of "12 years a slave," con cu been in eliza and her counter image "mistress shaw both are found in the courage to love. many were stunned to view the accurate portrayal of violence and cruelty of slave mistresses this was more than adequately rendered by susan george in richard flasher's 1975, "mandingo." moreover solomon himself in mcqueen's portrayal as a striking image of black manhood is a worthy protagonist. so, too, were others. all of these important elements of african and african-american slave life have been part of tv and big screen movies since at least the 1970s.

we hear from john earlier, of course. still, steve mcqueen's "12 years a slave" was a major contribution because it problem lis the first hollywood production to incorporate some version of all these charactes s and scenarios of southern u.s. slavery in one film and we haven't discussed the film that comes from -- depicts slavery in other parts of the atlantic world. i does so more ungrinchingly stamping the institutions and its benefactors with the savage violent brutality, physical, psychological and sexual that leave no room for excuses or apologies or civilized comprehension. "12 years a slave" is a master work, stunning cinematography and cast and gut-wrenching story moving and suspenseful and raging and eventually uplifting. still, it is a flawed and incomplete master work.

this should come as a surprise, how could one film view a 250-year-old institution involving millions of persons and different cultural backgrounds to say nothing of racial and gender differences who worked and resided in an ever expanding landscape that encompassed hundreds of thousands of miles. john ritually and steve mcqueen's -- ritley -- that comprise sudden slave life however is not the only problem that underlines the film's effectiveness of slavery. the screenwriter, john ritter, who also won an oscar and the n intricacies of the institution and those touched by it left tale-tale signs not only portrayals or lack of them of a slave community, slave resistance and slave labor and

diverse rows of slave women but inaccurate contextization and betrayal of lives of the free people of color and solomon northrop's of the flee north and looking at a farmer that was not very wealthy, that is epps. as a result, the film's viewing audience is left to believe mistakenly that the slaves on various plantations and farms which sol omon lived did not hae close ties to one another or function as communal units and slave resistance was rare an experience con finds to the actions of men and free men in the anti-bellum were indeed free and equal to their white neighbors. this is a dramatically told biography that lacks the nuance story development and later characterization this important

first account of slavery demands. catherine, you have served as a consultant for film and i want you to know they did not use a historical consultant on that film at all. so, yes, i will slam him. solomon northrop's autobiography has a rich pallet of southern slave woman hood. how well does steve mcqueen capture solomon a's "12 years a slave." it turned out eliza, a con cu been in epitomizes a lost so many slave women and young endure through sale. eliza had believed her sexual relationship with her owner would protect her and her family since he had promised to free all of them. instead, she and her children are sold separately and she is never able to see them again. eliza mourned her loss bitterly

through the saga as well as steve mcqueen's film adaptation. in the movie version eliza becomes a symbol of the devastating impact slavery had on social life and identity and depl deploys eliza's defeat that she rejects. eliza is utterly vanquished unable to move past her loss to survive long enough for the hopeful day of freedom solomon is determined to have despite the hardships he has to endure. the black bond of woman hood has been captured repeatedly. "uncle tom's cabin," and many others, for example frame fictionalized and docudrama depictions of personal

devastation. je screenwriters and directors have portray portrayed heart wrenching scenes, like the loss of kizi, for example and they convey to the audience the psychological institution and scenes of sadistic whippings such as in "roots" and the whipping to death of the captured slave woman whose baby has to be delivered postmortem. the only women in the post "roots" era that rivals the beleaguered slave mother is a sexualized slave woman particularly the slave con cu been in can be seen in characters of kizzy and ruth and bet betsy "in the courage to love." betty and sally in the film, sally hemmings, "an american

scandal" and a 1975 film "mandin "mandingo" and "queen." noting the concubi ne is an antagonist producing multiple image of enslaved woman hood. northrop in insisted centralizing the slave woman as victim and mcqueen does not. in the latest hollywood movies that have taken on african-american slavery, the concubine not surprisingly remains the most important black female character. consider the roles are roles of the films. in "lincoln," the concubine of famed abolitionist thaddeus

stevens and another once a concubine are the only two women of characters. likewise, in quentin tarantino's blockbuster "django unchained" are either concubines or prostitu prostitutes or on their way to being. while steve mcqueen's story of enslaved women has recovery from tarantino's, he adopts his favorite hollywood trobe of a black woman bound to powerful white men in "12 years a slave" and as such, eliza is not the only con cu been in -- in -- concubine. all the enslaved wom are concubi

concubines. certainly, there is some merit in the inclusion of some of these women's stories in any realistic film about slavery. most enslaved women were sexually harassed and/or abused yet this abuse did not all define their lives. this point is one in which mcqueen fails to make for in this film he offers no counter or additional images of women's lives nor multi-dimensional views of the women as slaves. and they often succeed add life beyond the lash and grasp of masters and mistresses. solomon emphasizes more, their amazing labor capacity and their resistant strategies. why doesn't mcqueen? thank you.

[ applause [ applause ] >> thank you so much. now, we have a little bit of time, i think, if you all would like to discuss amongst yourselves or respond to elements of each other's comment comments. >> i didn't like "lincoln the vampire slave," while it does suggest slaveholders are blood sucking, you know, it also only portrays slaves as vampire meat. there is nothing else that they do, they just are kindd

in them being sucked to death. so -- [ laughter ] >> sorry. >> not a happy -- >> my husband loved it, though, i have to say. my husband absolutely loved it and i absolutely hated it. >> there you go. i still think it's -- i know for a fact that tony krushner was very crushed to have this film come out the year before his film. he wanted to be able to say his film was the first film in 40 years to look at lincoln. at the same time, i think if you really believe abraham lincoln vampire hunter" was a film about lincoln, instead i see it as a film about legends and fantasies. this young eastern european director using the trope of american history. once in a while he hit something i found really enjoyable. most of the time i felt i was

being hit by the whip in the 3d and didn't. part of it is that even a rambling vampire hunter got people debating and discussing. so much of the time, it gives us an opportunity. that npr moment they will call you up and say, is it accurate or inaccurate? of course, movies aren't meant to be accurate. is it authentic -- i'm glad you brought up steve mcqueen. if the director projects a certain vision for his film and wants to defend it, then i think we often can debate it. i'll be honest, my greatest concern with steve mcqueen is i was living in the uk and i kept hearing him on interviews repeatedly before the film came out. he would say direct quote, it's a film about love. >> right. i was sort of okay with that until i listened to the rest of the interview. it wasn't a film abo

about -- northrop, he claimed it was about epps and patsy. >> right. >> i went, whoo whoo, let's have a time out. i don't think i'm addressing that as a scholar, addressing that as a feminist. therefore, i also can say there have been -- he also said, by the way, he thought the role of the planner, played by benedict cumb cumber -- he was the most evil character and the evil argument. however, both of those things allow uses a scholars or us as commentate ors to jump in and critique. anything that allows that kind of ability, thank you, filmmakers for being so -- so fantastic in your claims. so we can jump on and certainly make claims that these aren't good.

you, for example, plotted there are times when a lot of films came out and when no films came out. i will ask you, do you think a bad film therefore should not have been made? >> yes, i do. i do. >> that's fine. you're not -- you're from l.a. how can you think that? >> that's how i think that. >> that's a business town. >> steve mcqueen is a very interesting person. he does a couple of things i find very annoying. one of them is he really denies the fact people have done any film on slavery before. he says repeatedly -- i saw him at an event for b.e.t., when it came out on premiere with the actors and writer and all that he would say repeatedly, this is the first time a film like this has ever been made and the first time we're looking at slavery. i said what happened to the other "beloved" and -- and he would completely deny any had

done anything worthwhile until this film first and foremost and secondly, he repeatedly said no one except someone from britain could do this film, a black person from britain and a black woman not born in the united states could play patsy i think is absolutely ridiculous as well. and thirdly because he didn't do his research and didn't have a historian work with him, he would say repeatedly the story between epps and patsy was a love story. stop. no. it was. the guy was crazy. he was brutal. he was on the frontier working really hard, working with slaves really hard trying to make it. and so he was very sadistic. this doesn't have anything to do with love. i think he really flipped back the time in terms of looking at these relationships across the racial line. when he sees it himself as a love relationship, although thankfully it doesn't come across that way in the film.

you know? >> uh-huh. >> there was, discovering the women in slavery had a piece about mirra a slave, a woman who was who was tortured. >> exactly. >> in north carolina. >> we all have historical examples but part of it is when you put a film together. i take your point but i would also like to say that i did feel that his film was an artistic achievement. >> i did, too. >> his film was amazing. i will be showing it to students. >> i will be, too. >> at the same time when you mentioned the box office issue megan i found so many of my friends saying can i go see this? will it upset me too much? i said, yes. you will be upset. yes, you must go to see it. in a way i thought it was interesting that people were questioning when they're going to go see, oh, i don't know, arnold and people like that, you know, in other words i will say also on jango that i thought it was quite interesting in terms

of male sides that samuel jackson did the most amazing job, who knew it was him when you first saw the film yet he was never singled out or featured because of the political incorrectness he played. so the politics of jango. quentin tarrant inoue said there was no film that dealt with slavery as he did and he particularly went after "roots" which was an interesting issue. he was in a way saying that was, you know, a soap opera. now i'm doing the real thing. but all of these i think allow us to debate it not in terms of film but in terms of popular perception. >> well, i don't think "jango" is about slavery. it's a fantasy. it's a fantasy. i couldn't find one grain of reality in that film that dealt with slavery at all. i looked at it and i laughed at

it. i thought it was really funny. you know, and interesting. the costumes were nice. but for me it was just not a film about slavery at all. i know quentin tarantino was upset because of what historians wrote about that and said it wasn't about slavery and he seemed to be upset when steve mcqueen's film won for best picture and people applauded it as this great film. i do think as i said in my comments that it's a master work. without a doubt it's an incredible film and achievement. you know, but there are some things, nothing is perfect and so i look at particularly the way in which he deals with women because in solomon's narrative, it's very clear in which the way that patsy is framed, depicted. he talks -- he doesn't mention love. love is not part of it. it's not what he's talking about. he is talking about a man who owns her body, wants to own her

soul. and feels it's his right to do so and acts accordingly. but i was really interested in the early films that you talked about, john. because i really had forgotten about them. i teach -- well some of them -- because i teach a class on slave narrative, novel and film. i looked at the early "uncle tom's cabin" for example. and some of the other ones. but i had forgotten shirley temple. you know? i love shirley temple. the shirley temple version. i had seen "song of the south" and i saw it as a child in the south growing up. so it was really cool to hear and i am going to include those when i teach in the fall now. fantastic. >> it's also interesting to me that they raise no hackles, nobody. we think of the lost cause, nostalgia, sentiment for slavery as being a southern thing. it was an american thing. >> right. >> hollywood had no qualms about making them.

nobody had any qualms about seeing them and treating them as classics. and making them box office hits. of course there was some controversy with both "birth of a nation" and "gone with the wind" but it was naacp, relatively minor, a drop in the bucket compared to the great acclaim and popularity. that they enjoyed for multiple replays over the years. that tells us something. >> it does. >> because we keep doing "uncle tom's cabin" i think at least three times, as a film probably but i think post it will be interesting to see now to see uncle tom's cabin done again. it would. >> as you say, he does dedicate his book to harry beecher stowe, solomon northrup, and then harriet beecher stowe in which she defends her book and document that comes the year after, she sites him as saying this is the red river in

louisiana that i'm speaking about so there is a kind of connective tissues between the two of them. >> another thing "12 years a slave" does, we see slaves working. >> we do. >> pictured in the cotton fields and the sugar -- >> you've got to see it. does anybody in the audience know that film? it's really a fabulous film. it wasn't a big box office film at all. but it is magnificent. >> they are harvesting cotton in april in the opening scenes of "gone with the wind" so historical inaccuracy. >> much more cinematic. >> when you look and see that he only has eight slaves including solomon northrup then you realize how in some ways the film is just a little off in

terms of it and then his house is on the national registry. >> it's in louisiana. >> it is -- i can't pronounce it correctly. it is in that parish but it is a small, tin roof, roofd house, you know, so we lose this sense of why epps is really pushing his slaves so hard because he is on the frontier, you know, on this sugar cotton frontier. he's got a few slaves only. his first home is actually owned by his wife's uncle and so he's a man on the make in other words, you know, he's that yoman farmer trying to break out and become a planter. that's a really interesting part of a story that we miss because we see cumberbotch and he is

clearly a planter and has everything. so people say therefore he is kind and gentle and whatever. we miss out this guy who we just see as a crazy person is also someone who is pushing everyone beyond recognition of what is humanity to produce all of this cotton so he can then move up to where cumberbotch is. >> you rarely see small slave holders. >> you do. >> i think journey -- >> i didn't know that film. i'm definitely going to see that. >> you can also see the skin game. make sure you see the correct version because if your students look up the french one it will not work well in discussions. >> i'm not losing tenure over that. >> right. >> it seems this would be a good time to turn to the audience for questions. if you have a question, please raise your hand.

yes, jeremy? stand up. here comes the mike. >> jeremy neely missouri state university. to pick up on your comment about small slave holders one film i haven't heard mentioned yet is "right with the devil" the 1999 film which i think one of the most interesting characters is holt whom the pro confederate guerrillas with william contrell used as a spy in various capacities. >> i haven't seen that film but i'll go see it next week. ride with the devil? >> teaching it i think as i've taught it in northern ireland, they love it because it is about ethnicity and religion. and i've seen and also it is about the, why one is fighting the war beyond slavery. >> the missouri kansas frontier. >> and you have the ex-slave who is with his master on, you know,

on the battle front in "hiding guerrilla" and it is a very complicated, interesting tale. he is telling it with his version of the war which is powerful. we can come up with 20 more -- the beguiled, wonderful clint eastwood film. but with african-american women, white women, more women than men. like it should be. there aren't enough parts or roles for women but i think, and you're mentioning for example "ride withabv+vbrzs the devil" s refrakting through looking at the roles of women and i thought jewel was a particularly weak character, the actress who played -- i am just saying that often i think the -- as looking at film they're often just looking, here we want a big screen. we want the kids to come in.

i've written about bell as being a bosom movie that you're trying to get heaving bosoms and get young teenagers in to see austin, mixed race austin. >> that's what i thought. you should see it with "pride and prejudice" with kyra knightly and then -- >> but these film makers are much like the publishers we encounter today. what is the state of the business? what's its future? can we attract people to it? i think it's good for us to be very critical but a period, making period is very expensive. film makers don't like it. television doesn't like it. you know, if someone comes to you saying, we want to do a reality show set on an antebellum southern scene, you might just as i have said, great. because part of it is anything that i think gets the debate and discussion out there my sons came up with the idea a few

years ago i should take plantation mistress to hollywood and say real housewives of the old south. and i know -- but at the same time we joke and we -- but i still say i am really serious, the debate and for example the mel gibson film "the patriot" you know, we all hate it. at the same time you are sitting there and these little freshmen come in and why are you here? what is your interest? and they saw a film. part of it is to get people excited about the past even if it's not our past, nobody's p.a.t., some fantasy past. >> this brings up a question of what constitutes a film about slavery, right? would you think of "ride with the devil" as a film about slavery or "cold mountain?" no. there are slaves in those films

but they're not -- they are very marginal and there almost to sort of establish -- cold mountain had no slave, no black voices. you see a black woman drugged being carried. you see people on the road who nod. and i think that was in my mind a sub conscious cold mountain view of the world. we know they're there but this is our film. we will have our film. >> you see nicole kidman taking refreshments out to the slaves but she never gets past the porch. but charles does such interesting things with his references to slavery and the attitudes of the mountaineers heading off to war and the role of slaves and slave holders in motivating that. i think he missed an opportunity maybe to do more with that in the film. >> symbolically it is interesting because people would deny the importance of slaves in their lives.

>> oh, so true. >> you know, so on that level i mean i know you've gone through probably millions of planters' letters. i've only gone through thousands. i know you've gone through millions. >> years older than you. she said that. we're the same age probably. at any rate you see they och know don't speak about their slaves. they say they have 250 slaves and there is nothing about them in there. it is kind of an interesting view or perspective of the way in which the slave holders sometimes saw their lives. which is when writing to their loved ones and families not really concerned about the slaves who they're doing things all around them. >> they're also using their slaves to write to one another and tell stories so part of it is we come up with hundreds of

great, interesting stories. >> right. >> where is the film on harriet jacob? where is the film on harriet tubman? >> right. >> plenty of harriets we could write films about. i'm saying where, we think of these stories. when i was working in the '90s in hollywood and was in a meeting talking about these wonderful stories this was preamistad i remember and it was talking about all these great stories. i got involved in a project very painful about richard m. johnson and they kept pushing the story about his concubine and daughters and it was like, would it, could it, should it? at that early age i couldn't bear because when you say you're consulting you go to meetings and then the film comes out. >> right. >> some people they do invite in to look at it but my first viewing of lincoln was at a premiere in gettysburg. i just closed my eyes and crossed my fingers. >> it was great.

>> but you do not know that there will be something that is -- but at the same time i think we have to keep trying. in the '90s i proposed several films with black women as protaganists and was told the three black actresses that could carry a television film and at that time none of them were, you know, their cue levels weren't high enough. that is why i introduced into my discussion the way in which i think african-american actresses have been so marginalized. to have someone like lupita come forward and be so political in her speaking about this role. i'd also like to mention women think of the portraits of why are women, african-american enslaved women being portrayed by nonamerican born women? i mean, it is very interesting because i think our relationship to -- the legacy of slavery is

still very much a part of the business culture reflected in american films. what will make money? if slavery makes money they're going to be making films about slave slavery. that is really true. if presidential biopicks make money they'll be making biopicks. look for van buren at your multi-plex. >> you shared years ago, do you remember this, a screenplay of celia a slave. i don't know how many of you know that story. true story of a missouri slave, young girl. constantly raped by her master. had a black lover. ends up killing her master. almost gets away with it. her black slave lover gives her away. leads to a trial in missouri late 1850s in the midst of the border tensions. fascinating story. it was so interesting. you remember the screen play turned it not into her story but the story of her lawyer.

>> right. the lawyer was the center piece that was the hero for defending her. >> because the film business is the bankability. you look at "12 years a slave" and you did call it a hollywood film. i'm glad you did. mcqueen also says without brad pitt playing a role in it would not have been bankable. that kind of thing can go on and people have these wonderful films. the documentary film makers we know working in these areas, you and i know people now and to get a film going, a documentary, takes a decade of raising money. i know spielberg had his meeting with his earliest advisers in 2006 to make "lincoln" so you see it is -- there was a

writer's strike and it had to do not just with schedules but financing. >> liam nissan playing it. >> he was reading the part and there were other people involved at that time. daniel day louis inhabited that. >> it is really important when we look at these films we also look at the films done early in the 1960s, 1970s or 80s for example a lot of films on slavery actually we found on public television for example the first "12 years a slave" i saw on public tv. you know, it was the early film. >> 1991. >> yes. then there was of course a harriet tubman film. >> yes. >> cicely tyson. that's there, too. charlotte for thein. there are all these other films available to us that i think should be part of the

discussion. >> question? >> yes. >> i'm ashley murphy from brown university and i had a question that i think will build on something you all just said and mentioned in your earlier comments. i wonder if you can talk about the role that medium plays. we are all talking about film and i am wondering why there aren't great representations of slavery in television thinking particularly of kind of the current trend for contemporary western so "hell on wheels" or "copper" both of which are shows i really like and everyone should watch them so they keep getting made but also "deadwood" where former slaves appear not until the third season but i wonder why television doesn't seem to lend itself given we are in this supposed renaissance of american tv with all of the money and attention going there.

>> the hatfields and mccoys i believe was the biggest hit that made a lot of money which did well commercially. i take your point. i remember watching all the made for tv movies many of them dealing with the south -- freedom road with mohammed ali written by howard fast. a lot was made during -- >> biography of miss jane pitt. >> right. during the '70s you did have a lot of these films and some of the portraits of the period i thought were very wrenching and amazing. i certainly remember the first lynching on the small screen and thinking, you know, this is an amazing moment. at the same time when i think i was in the 1990s and i was often pitching stories and ideas i remember very distinctly which shocked me so much being told nah, a story we were trying to

put across was too dangerous for television because black and white. a con cue period but not modern. anything even in the 1990s might offend southern advertisers. that was the idea. in some ways i think television is a medium that responds so commercially and waits for, you know, like something happens in film and then five to ten years later it becomes okay. i'm thinking of this, i've been oust the country for almost ten years and i notice it in the language on television what is now acceptable. wait. they can see that on tv? that kind of thing. >> on the other hand it used to be to get anything made with black characters historically as the prominent characters, the center piece, had to be done on television. thinking about maia angelo's the caged bird singing. not a feature film.

back in the '80s i guess tv was a backup where you could afford to do things like that. "roots" of course. >> the last, i guess, the last episode of the first series of "roots" still had more viewership than any other mini series period in u.s. television history. that was really the moment. you also have to think about the social, the time in which it was done. it was in the civil rights movement and people wanted to know more about african-american history. they wanted more ability to talk in a way they didn't have to go and read ten books or whatever so people would look at those film and it was really a moment as was the history itself in which there was a lot of discourse across the racial divide, you know. and everyone was talking about various things.

so now we have a time, very odd in terms of the way it is represented on television. we can have something like scandals for example but then we can't necessarily have a film about nat turner. you know. and so it's really interesting that you could have this black woman in the white house in many ways running the white house, the dream of sally hemmings but you can't have, you know, you can't have a film about nat turner -- on the small screen again for pds. we're in this kind of odd place politically i think and socially with regard to race that i wouldn't know whether the figures you gave about the large screen now the small screen

producers want to take a chance doing those kind of films so often times the small screen takes the cue from the large screen. it would be interesting to see. >> and i know they were going to make a mini series about the children of pride which was derailed by "roots". "gone with the wind" was shown for the first time on television in the fall of 1976. in november. not on thanksgiving weekend but another weekend. and its two showings are still in the top ten of broadcast audiences but "roots" the last episode was higher. i think in terms of the dialogue and popular#du,"+4culture you h "gone with the wind" rearing up again just a cultural icon and roots coming along and replacing it and interestingly the children of pride scuttles back into -- also when are we going to get the many more complex

stories to tell both sides so we don't have the evil master. >> right. >> and as we know all the mistresses were evil because we watch all these films. we see their roles and there isn't any portrait that isn't stereotyped. that's why mandingo has such power because it is taking gone with the wind and turning it inside out and making it a grand saga. i did see more hands. >> i have to go back and see mandingo. i haven't seen it since the '70s. oh, my gosh. how did that get on television? >> get letters from parents about the tuition they pay. >> i know we're all interested in scholars that we want film makers to be interested in us but i have a hunch the film makers are in fact really interested. the reason they want you as a

consultant is they actually want that to be authentic and real. so when i watch a lot of these films i'm struck by did they have a kind of strange engagement but it is often a little bit off. when i watch a film it feels like a damage argument to me. when i watch jango i feel like okay. this is agency. not what i meant but in some kind of strange way there is something going on in the popular culture that kind of busted open a lot of the way we've written history and it is about breaking up the kind of cannon where you had two traditions, and it came to me in

james mcbride's novel where he portrays fredrik douglass as a buffoon. so i think part of when we watch these things, we feel like they are just busting a cannon open and in some ways maybe that is a good thing but something about it is really disturbing. i wanted to hear people talk about do you feel like -- how does it relate to the way we write history? >> it is interesting you mentioned mcbride's novel. you all know good lord bird that within the national book award this year. i haven't taught it yet but i have a number of former students reading it and getting in touch saying it is one that ought to be taught. it's been optioned and is going to be made into a film. might be the next film on slavery. it's a 12-year-old boy disguised as a girl taken in by john brown in kansas and follows him all the way through.

we see harper's ferry and meetings with douglass through the eyes of this 12-year-old boy, will smith's son is going to play it on the screen so it is going to get done. it is interesting. what they choose to option, take a fictional book and sort of a parody, almost looks like more in the line of jango more than 12 years a slave. interesting to see what they'll do with john brown on film. >> i hate to disagree with you, anthony, but i think if we brought film makers in to hear our panels to hear people talk and promote their views and scholarship don't you think there's a lot of disagreement among people of interpretations? i am taking this seriously. when the film makers call you they don't want the complexity, the