from the 1930s to the 1970s. c-span 3, funded from your cable industry. watch us on hd, follow us on fa -- like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. next is donald spivey. he talks about satchel paige in negro baseball. he is remembered as the first player to be inducted into the baseball hall of fame. he also talks about how people struggled for civil rights. fostering programs like the naacp. this class is about an hour and 15 minutes. >> we'll be talking today about satchel paige and negro leagues

baseball and rhethe rethinking the civil rights movement. let me start out with a confession to you. as long as i've been teaching the civil rights movement, it didn't make sense to me.v/a i'm a baby boomer. i was born at the end of world war ii. i came of age if the 1950s and 1960s, so why does a historian present something current? my mind changed in 2001. let me tell you what happened in 2001. i had the great privilege to serve as moderator for a session on pastime, baseball is history at the organization for american historians. and the session was focusing on judeç tyjeel's new book. we had a great panel with stanley cutler, james marin from

princeton university and jewels augusty from san francisco state, and then our surprise anchorperson, sharon robbins, head and founder of jackie's 9 and the daughter of jackie robinson. and we had a great session. it was well attended. at the end of the session, i had the chance to chat with sharon robinson. and we were both concerned about a fairly recent news article that had a star baseball player of color, right, who in the interview it was mentioned to him something to the effect of, well, i guess you're really -- thank goodness for jackie robinson. and the player said, who is jackie robinson? and what became very clear to us was that many of the major league baseball players did not know who jackie robinson was. so not just them, but the public

as well. so sharon robinson said she was going to do something about it, and she did. she met with the baseball commissioner, bud seely, who is still commissioner, and they came up with an idea. and that idea is jackie robinson day, which occurs every april 15th, which was the day jackie came up, played in brooklyn in his first game, april 15. the third jackie robinson day was 2004, so this year we will celebrate the te10th anniversar of jackie robinson day. so i thought i had to teach that relate to do that movement. if jackie robinson were here, i have no doubt that he would come to this podium and tell you the history for that great day for him did not begin then, that you have to look back to the great ball players that came long

before jackie robinson. and he would say, moses fleetwood walker, the first black in major league baseball, in fact, in 1884. and he said in paving the way, leading the way for me, jackie robinson would say you have to understand the great players of the negro leagues and especially the king of the negro leagues, leroy robert satchel paige, none other than satchel paige. you have to understand him because he paved the way. many would say satchel paige was the world's greatest pitcher. i certainly agree with that. some of the testimonials. joe dimaggio, when he was first starting out and he was playing against black ball players in the california winter league, and this happened. white players and black players out there in california. and he got a hit on satchel paige. when he got back to his teammates, he told them, now i know i'm ready for the major

leagues because i got a hit on satchel paige. and the great dimaggio, at the end of his career without hesitation, when he was asked who was the greatest pitcher you ever faced, he said satchel paige. by far, i think, the big pitcher over satchel paige, barnes storming through the west and the plains. dizzy dean said of satchel paige, dean was known for his fastball. he said, my fastball looks like a change of pace next to that bullet of satchel's. dean went on a radio program and said, i don't know why they keep these colored boys out of the majors. because if me and satchel were on the same team, we would have the pennant won by the fourth of july and go fishing in world

series time. bill vett, who i think is the most influential leader in major league baseball, owner of the cleveland indians, st. louis browns and the white sox. bill vett put it this way, he made the point numerous times. quote, if satchel paige had been allowed to play in the majors a and in his prime, today the cy young award would be known as the satchel paige award. what made satchel paige so special? i interviewed bunches of negros who said the same thing.

he was an extraordinary entertainer. black ball itself was very different than major league ball. negro league baseball was played at a faster pace, more daring, more base stealing. why would you throw somebody out straight and overhand if you can throw it behind your head, around your back, through your legs. one ball was thrown to satchel paige pitching. he caught the ball, bent over and dusted off his shoe with his glove and threw it underhand to get the out. the fans loved that kind of bravado. you had that all the time in negro league baseball. the stunting, the gags, the people in the outer field doing the cake walk, et cetera. shadow ball where very often

they would start a game playing imaginary baseball. when somebody is pitching, there is no real baseball. when somebody is hitting, fielding, there's no real baseball. no baseball. and in the end it ends up in an arc at the plate. the fans loved this. this is when baseball was king by far. satchel paige played to the fans. also the longevity on the mound. paige would play for four decades. another factor making him great was his ability to negotiate with the media. he was a darling of the media. one of the reasons for that is because he always made for good copy. homespun philosopher. he had all these great sayings, many of whom we hear today as part of the american vernacilum. don't look back, something might be gaining on you. one of my favorites as i get

more and more gray hair. satchel paige said age is a matter of mind over matter. if you don't mind, it don't matter. another one that he used, which i've used for certain academics and used a satchel paige-ism. satchel would say, it's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know that just ain't so. he had that kind of mind despite a fourth grade education. what he also gave to the public and to the press, he named his pitches. bad dodger, hesitation pitch, boo ball. he was a notorious trash talk out of that african tradition. why are you bringing that bat up to the plate? it ain't nothing but wood. he loved to make those kinds of

statements about my greatness, his greatness on the mound. and the fans loved that. he more than once at the understand of the inning. absolutely incredible. more than once. if anybody did that, it would have been a home run. and it was always satchel paige to the rescue. there's a classic showdown between him and josh gibson. gibson is the greatest hitter in the negro baseball league. whites call him josh gibson, the black babe ruth. black folks say, no, babe ruth is the white josh gibson.

there was a game in forbes field, pittsburgh, who was playing for the home state grays against the chicago american giants. they were doing a series. he hit a home run. center field home run that when it cleared center field, it was still going up. and up. and people watched it fade away out in the distance. they foregood to even applaud as he's going around the bases. they're asking themselves what planet is this guy from? as the story goes, three days later they were finishing up the series in chicago. this time -- both teams were on the field, you know, doing some exercises. one of the chicago american giants players heard a fan yell out, there's a ball coming. he looked up. a ball was falling. he caught the ball. what was going on? there was an umpire standing next to him. he's looking. they're looking at each other.

what? and the umpire looks around and he sees gosh gibson over there talking to someone. looks at the ball. looks at gibson. then finally he makes a decision. he yells over at him, gibson, you're you, josh gibson. you're out. in pittsburgh. three days garrigues. i know that's admittedly an exaggeration of his hitting ability, but he get the point. satchel paige in this game in '42 intentionally loads the bases so he can pitch to gibson. people said there was an absolute madness. john brook o'neil playing first base and one of the managers for monarchs who told me the details of the story said he called me over and said, you know what i'm going to do? i've got to do this. we have to settle this thing once in for all between josh and me. josh is no doubted the world's

greatest hitter. i'm the world's greatest pitcher. we have to settle this. who's the best? so josh gibson came to the plate. you can imagine what this did to the fans. they're hysterical. they can see exactly what's going on. paige has loaded the bases so for the final out he can pitch against the deadliest hitter in negro league baseball. as i got the details of it, he's calling the pitches and telling josh what comes next. he tells them, josh, first one will be a fastball on the outside. it's coming so fast, there's nothing you can do about it. oomph, strike one. then tells him where the second one's coming. second one will be a fastball on the inside. it will look a little low but it will be fine. but there is nothing you can do about it because it would be faster than the other one. strike two. and then he told him for the third one, he said, i'm not going to tell you where it's going because you're a great hitter and you could get lucky but i'll tell you this, it will

be a whole lot faster than the other two. strike three. struck him out. gibson throws down his bat, goes off the field and paige stroves off the field leisurely with the fans going wild. he doesn't tip his hat or anything. just looks ahead. and the fans even get louder behind that. he was too cool to take a bow. that was satchel paige, the daring, the putting it on the line, et cetera. many will remember him for his greatness on the mound, yes. they will remember him as the oldest rookie in major league baseball when he comes in and plays for cleveland. he's 42 years of age in 1948. he's the first african-american to start a game as pitcher. and when he started, he set the all-time attendance record for a night baseball game. over 72,000 fans. and a couple weeks later when he

started again, he broke that record because of 78,000 fans in attendance. 10,000 to 15,000 couldn't get in to the ballpark. many will recall him as the oldest player in major league game at age 59, in 1965, he pitched three innings. he was, indeed, the first player from the negro leagues inducted into the national baseball hall of fame in 1971. that's the plaque inside there. on the left. and on the right, it's a statue of satchel paige doing a high kick. many pitchers in that era back then would do a high kick, particularly scoring a fastball. that statue of him in the courtyard at national baseball hall of fame that was dedicated in 2006. he's a community and can cultural icon.

i wanted you to seat mural in the background. that mural was painted by an anonymous artist there in kansas city, missouri. right off vine street, which was like the street in black missouri. and in the front there, you have a portrait of satchel paige. that's him in front. to his right is his wife lahoma jean paige. holding the portrait is his daughter and his son robert paige. i asked them for a copy picture of the portrait itself. they did me one better by giving me a shot of them and everybody else in front of this great mural. he was a community icon. but satchel paige was much more than that, than all of that. when you place him in historical context and appreciate his contribution to baseball and the

african-american struggle for equal rights. i want to talk a minute about the making of satchel paige. i think to understand any person and what they later become, i always like to start with their childhood to see if you can't pick up clues there. he had a very interesting, shall we say, childhood? born in 1906 in mobile, alabama, family of 12, dirt poor. he was scrounging all of his life. he stashtd scrounrted scroungin was 5 years old, particularly trying to find discarded bottles, taking them in for the deposit on them. and then bringing home game. rabbit, squirrels, birds, vis-a-vis throwing rocks. he had that ability to throw rocks. an uncanny accuracy and speed. by age 9 he's regularly bringing

home small game just with a handful of rocks. as he gets a little older he hustles constantly at the l&n depot. the louisville to nashville depot there in mobile, carrying bags, carrying satchels. that's where he gets his nickname, satchel. satchel paige. in a sense, though, you think he's born to defy. he's always at othds with his environment there in the jim crow south. as a result of this -- it's not that he's rebellious against his mother, his father in that regard. he's just rebellious and upset about his environment, his life, his restrictions. and he gets whoopings all the time. i didn't saywhippings. i didn't say lickings. he got whoopings. he got those all the time. his mother would say, go fetch me a switch. what that meant in the south was

go out and bring back a tree branch. tree branch and it was used for a licking. and he would hear that constantly. go and fetch me a switch. go and fetch me a switch. and he said this, looking back at his childhood, can you read it there for yourself. i used to think she, his mother, lula paige, hit me because she didn't know how i felt. she didn't know how i was when they told me i couldn't swim where the white folks did. then i realized maybe she did. she must have been chased away from the white man's swimming places. she must have got run off from the white man's stores and stands for just looking hungry at a fish. she must have heard those men yelling, get out of here, you no good nigger. she must have heard it. i guess she learned to live with it. and he did not learn to live with. satchel paige becomes your

quintessential bad negro as defined in the south. the most vivid example of that are the rock wars he engages in. many people say he ends. being sent to reform school because he sold trinkets at a little store. that's absolute nonsense. what happened is satchel paige was building a reputation as a bad negro because these rock wars. he attended the all-black school but not far from it was the all-white school, the oakdale school. whenever he and his friends would walk close to there, the white students, the white boys would start throwing rocks at him. so, this went on for several occasions. then finally paige and his buddy started throwing back and the rock wars were on. they actually started in 1917 and continue on until the spring

of 1918 because prior to that in these rock wars, paige had -- he would hit you. he was deadly accurate, but he would hit you in a lower part of your body and legs, so forth, not try and hit you in the head. that all changed spring 1918. he and his buddies were going -- walking past again the oakdale school and a bunch of white boys open up on them with rocks. they are fighting back and forth and reinforcements come in to the other side. paige and his buddies take off running, right, with the others pursuing behind him. one of his friends is hit in the head and goes down. it's at that point with his other friend trying to help him up that paige turns around, picks up rocks and starts throwing them. he's throwing them and hitting people but hitting them low, et cetera, but is not stopping them. it's at that point he begins to throw with full force and

utterly bad intentions. and he's deadly accurate. hitting people dead in the head. some who see the accuracy of the throws, they take flight, hide behind something. others are brave, stand your ground. they pay the price with that wrong decision. still others when they saw him getting ready to throw, tried ducking. paige learned how to hold his throw. in fact, he tells us later on, that's where he developed his hesitation pitch. in these rock wars, et cetera, and then it would be dead on. many kids that left that day with big knots on their heads. lucky someone didn't get their eye knocked out. but even more lucky is that they didn't go home and complain to their parents, because this could have been really disastrous. this is an absolute no-no in the jim crow south. paige is not only putting himself at risk, he's putting the entire african-american

community at risk. this would not be the first time based on a whim or misinformation or someone fighting back that an entire community is laid waste. so, he's putting the community at risk. in the end, he's brought before the authorities and it is decided that he will be sent to reform school. everyone thinks the man behind this is jeff crenshaw, the sheriff on record who said, if an negro is old enough to walk, he's old enough to go to jail. crenshaw meant that. alabama had a very fierce, terrible history of locking up young black males. young black males as young as age 10, 10, were being sentenced to adult prisons. and that was the fate for

satchel paige, if it hadn't been for the intervention of others. in particular the intervention of these two women. this one in particular, aletha young. paige only mentions her as mrs. meany. it took us the longest to find out who mrs. meany was. who's this mrs. meany he so hates? one of the reasons he hated her is because when he missed school, she would, in fact, report that truancy to his mother. you know what he heard then? go and fetch me a switch. exactly. the reality is, she was not mean. neither was she married. in fact, she had the reputation of one of the most beloved teachers in black mobile, alabama. she was trying to save satchel

paige. she meant with officer crenshaw, send him to reform school because she knows that radio form school. she's been involved in the making of this school. when you look at this history and look at the work of the alabama federation of women's club, it's important for a number of levels, a number of reasons. not just because it helped satchel paige. it also puts to rest this notion that black women in the south did not work to advance their own civil rights, their own liberation. that's not the case. the alabama federation of women's club, there were 31 of these clubs throughout alabama. nationwide these clubs, part of the national federation of colored women's club are all over the country, including the south. and aletha young is a good friend and coworker with

corneila bowen, the founder of the men's institution which becomes the reform school ichts. these women had got together in promoting the idea of making this a reform school for black males. not because they hate them but because they love them. they say, we have to save our own black males. these are children and they used the term back then, at risk. they need our intervention or they're going to be sent off to adult prisons. ms. young made the case he should be sent there knew who was there, her friend and fellow worker in the alabama federation of colored women, cornelia bowen. someone needs to do a biography of cornelia bowen. she's the first woman to graduate from tuskegee, alabama, class of 1957.

booker t. washington is one of her teachers. not only that, she's a firm believer in the reformation abilities of baseball. that sport can be used to reform young folks and young men in particular. she gains this with her work from the carlisle indian institute. a lot of you have heard of the carl line indian institute in carlisle, pennsylvania. had the person as head of sports pop warner. pop warner baseball, pop warner football. that's one of the greatest athletes that ever lived there, jim thorpe. there's a close relationship here as she's trying to learn about and use the power of baseball in particular to reform young men. for the longest we thought paige just goes to this school. he later said that's where he learned how to pitch.

people thought, he's just playing around, throwing, so forth. no, he's actually trained how to pitch by moses davis. do me one favor, if nothing else, this continues to be this misinformation by the someone by the name of byrd taught satchel paige to pitch. that's nonsense. in fact, there's nobody by the name of byrd within 30 miles of mt. mayex. nevertheless, this story persists and even more to the point, they thought the person that taught him how to pitch were white. there were no white teachers there. the entire teaching staff, only six people, they're all black. no. the person who taught him how to

pitch. i want you to see this blown up. that's from corneila bowen's stationary. you can see it more clearly. moses davis. mr. moses davis, who's a minister there, of a local black church in wah, alabama, small town mt. mayex is a part of. moses davis who teaches the boys baseball with the complete support of cornelia davis. he gets the first baseball uniform and he gets it from the j.e. murray sporting good company on dpection ter avenue in montgomery. he gets a fine discount because he uses the influence of the dexter avenue baptist church to help him in getting a good deal. that church, the oldest black baptist church in montgomery, founded in 1877, has a direct

connection with the school. they sent money to the school. they help them with their baseball uniforms, et cetera. if you fast forward in the history of the civil rights movement, that same dexter avenue baptist church, it's the same church in 1955 that has an assistant pastor by the name of martin luther king jr. who then gets together with rosa parks and e.d. nixon and fred shuttlesworth and formed the montgomery improvement association. of course, as they watch the bus boycott, montgomery bus boycott, there's this formation -- satchel paige's life is intertwined with the formation of civil rights and he doesn't even know it. when he hits the road after being released from the mount, he's released in 1923.

i love this particular shot of mt. mayex done by a group of visitors checking out the school. they took this shot. they don't name who the boys in the photo. every time i look at it i said i bet that one right there, i bet that's satchel paige. it was meant to be that way, that somehow i'd get this photo from 1923, the date of this photo, and i bet that's him out of the 300-something other boys on the -- at mt. mayex. wishful thinking. but once he's released, he starts his career in baseball. he's a master navigator. particularly in how to outsmart or get past jim crow. a notorious hot bed. negro league ballplayer, on your road, staying at flea-bitten hotels and you become meals for

bedbugs and so forth. not exactly a glamorous life. how to avoid that, right? one of the tools that's so important to satchel paige is one we constantly overlook and need to give more credit to. that's the automobile. the automobile. some of you will recall that in the montgomery bus boycott how the boycotters were able to compensate for not riding the buses. remember they formed carpools. they used cars. they formed sort of their impromptu cab company to get people back to forth to work, et cetera. why they didn't continue that later o i don't know. the automobile has been very important in the african-american struggle to overcome jim crow. satchel paige is a master at this because the cars -- he tells us, it allowed him to be independent. you'd pack a basket of food, put that in the trunk.

he had a little coleman stove that he'd use to cook with. he carried fishing gear in the trunk of his car. a blanket. a thermos with water and later on more lively lefs than that. he parked by a lake or a stream, right? that allowed him -- he could fish, et cetera. when he got sleepy, he took his blanket, slept in the back of the car, avoiding the bedbugs at those flea-bitten hotels and the rest. the next morning when he woke up, he could freshen himself up in the lake or go for a swim. i know it was rustic, but it allowed him, showed you his intelligence in trying to overcome jim crow. i have to mention to you, too, as well in all fairness, satchel paige was a notorious driver. he sped all the time. he was known to blow out car

engines. he received so many tickets for speeding. it was outrageous. in fact, one story told of paige blasting through this small town. he was going at such a speed when the police finally did catch up with him, they took him to the local magistrate. the local magistrate said for that kind of speeding, we're charging you $40. $40 was a lot of money back then. so, paige reached in his pocket and gave the judge $80 to which the judge said, no, the fine is $40, not $80. to which paige responded, i'll be coming back this way. that was satchel paige. others say, well, you know, josh -- the fighter, jack johnson, told the same story. that's absolutely true. but the same thing happened to paige and he told the story much better. buck o'neill, made by j.r.

wilkinson, the owner of the kansas city monarchs, he was assigned to ride with paige, slow him down a bit and make sure he got to games safely. and after a couple of experiences of riding with paige, he went to jail, wilkinson, and he told him, you can fire me. i'm not riding with him again. he said, not only was he speeding this last time, but he was speeding and going the wrong way down a one-way street. and he said, when the police finally stopped us, they said, hey, you're not only speeding, you know, you're going the wrong way down a one-way street? he said, satchel told him, i'm only going one way. he got another ticket. even when not on the road, birmingham itself was contested territory. every aspect of african-american life, in fact, martin luther king would later say was the most segregated city in america. i used to joke, tell him to come to chicago.

when he finally came to chicago, he said, yeah, chicago might be as bad at as some of these other places. the black barons had a rich tradition of baseball there, to say the least. and they often barn stormed in thinking that gave relief and certainly you're traveling, seeing the world. one particular case they were traveling and barn storming in galveston, texas, for a juneteenth celebration. and it was interesting to see the world they had to try and overcome. when they arrived at the game site, playing another black team. of course, they found out that the local sheriff was part owner of the team they were going to play. he obviously had some money bet on the game. and he told paige and the rest of the barons that he wanted to meet with them for a second and call them over. he told them, and i quote, if you niggers beat my niggers, all

you niggers going to jail. so, paige said that was an interesting situation. and what the barons did is they trail throughout the entire game until the bottom of the ninth, ral lid, beat the team. jumped on their buses and their cars and flew out of there. statements about black manhood, statements about trying to overcome jim crow. back in birmingham, they played at richwood field. the oldest ballpark in america. richwood field was established in 1910. the problem with richwood field like so many other negro fields, you played with them, you rented them, you didn't own them. most of the deals call for that you had to have the

concessionaires that went with the food and the price of food and everything else went up for the blacks. they got the worst of the toilet facilities. usually outhouses somewhere, et cetera. probably the worst of the experience at richwood field was the announcer for the games. at richwood field you had to use the same announcer for who announced for the white barons games for, in fact, the black barons games because they didn't want blacks to use the amplification system. some say, well, they think the blacks would poison it or contaminate it somehow. so had you to use the same announcer. the announcer for baron baseball games was a man by the name of eugene conner. who was known to all his friends as bull conner. this is long before he would become sort of the -- the perfect example of racism in the south when he became

commissioner of public safety years later in birmingham. i love the title. commissioner of public safety. of the police force, fire department, were all under him. and it was he who directed the police to use all force necessary against black demonstrators. we have it on videos, folks being beaten, attack dogs being sicked on them, hit with high-pressure water hoses, cattle prods used against them, thrown in the jail, pregnant women dragged down the street, young kids hit in the head. that's bull conner. long before that, he was eugene "bull" conner, the baseball announcer. he got the name bull because of his bell akoes ability to go on and on and on announcing baseball games. some of his announcing of the black barons baseball games just defy all human decency.

today we have playing two nigger teams. on this nigger starting at first base, et cetera. look at that nigger run. fast as a little monkey. did you see that catch? only an april could make that catch. great nigger pitching, satchel paige. satchel paige would later say that he heard nigger pitcher so much in various games he played in, he said that could have been his other nickname. it could have been satchel or fetch me a switch or nigger pitcher. you think -- when i talk to folks about how did you survive that? they said, they didn't hear bull conner. we cut him off. you didn't hear him? no, we were not going to let them spoil our day at the

ballpark. we are dressed to the nines. the players are playing, having a good time. most of the players would pack a picnic basket to come to the game to avoid high prices overcharging you at the concession stands, et cetera. and enjoy the game. think about the mental toughness and resiliency that demonstrates. more to the point, black baseball players are directly involved in the struggle for civil rights. the negro leaders are involved in the anti-lynching campaign. in the east/west all-star games, the most important of games in negro league baseball, have you 40,000, 50,000 people at these games. usually in comiskey park in chicago. way outdrawing the major league games. .

particularly at the end of the '34 one they get together and are pumping in money to help the scottsboro boys and their retrial in scottsboro, alabama. these boys falsely accused of raping two white women. and the head of this effort is bill bow jangles robinson. most of people think of him as the great tap dancer, the individual in so many shirley temple movies during the 1930s. if you follow the news, you know shirley temple recently passed away. she and bojangles would teach her these tap dancing routines. he taught her. she said he was his first teacher of any kind of dance. she talked about how he looked out for her. you're working the girl too hard. stop it, et cetera. but most think of him as the great dancer.

they forget the fact that he was part owner of the black yankees baseball team. and a fierce defender of african-american youth, pumping money in, time, effort, and particularly on cases involving lynching in the anti-lynching crusade. taking up funds that paige and other negro league players contributed to to help the scottsboro boys and their clause. happening right at the same time is the clark neil lynching in the great state of florida. which walter white, head of the naacp says it the most gruesome crime he's heard of where clark neil is totally mutilated, then burned alive, then lynched, et cetera. his toes were cut off and hands -- fingers cut off, sold as souvenirs. people punching out his eyes.

you can't -- it's so gruesome, you can't even repeat all the details. and this outrageous negro league ballplayers, as it does much of the decent nation, and they're pumping money into naacp and anti-lynching campaigns. negro league honors are directly involved in the anti-lynching crew side. one of the most outspoken of the negro owners is effa manly. that's a shot of effa manly with other negro league owners there. she's the only woman owner of the negro league, new york eagles, and she's very feisty. talking about, where's our black pride and what we have to do for the community. she's a huge supporter in the naacp. pumps money into them, helps them to keep open when they had their office in new york and

fifth avenue. in fact, the sign that would hang outside the naacp office there in new york saying, a man was lynched to today in the south. she personally paid for those signs. she was a dedicated crusader and challenging black men to be more manly. she told satchel paige, you need to be even more black. she was that kind of person. what's doubly fascinating about her is that she was not black. she was genetically a white woman. her mother later married a black man so her stepfather, et cetera, and she would live in harlem. her mother told her, you're really a white woman. she chooses to live her life as a black woman. i've seen videos of her and i've heard her speak. i just thought she was a light-skinned black woman. i mean, sounded like a sister.

wears clothes like a sister. loves soul food. most of her friends are black, et cetera. she's a white woman. which tells you something very interesting about the artificial construct of race. satchel paige, the most important contribution in baseball to bringing down the barriers of jim crow is when he played out west in the california winter league. the california winter league was started back in 1899. this is where star black players would play against star white players. you could get negro league teams playing against major league teams. i mentioned to you desi dean. desi dean and satchel paige had

a lot of barn storming gigs. made a lot of money, black team versus white team. what was happening here is that blacks, whites, others, you're treated to a great game of baseball, but what people were also noting is that these negro league players were every bit as good as these major league players. satchel paige, just about better than all. that's saying something very profound. it's another way of pushing for one's rights as a human being, saying i'm an equal, et cetera. paige was doing it from the pitcher's mound. there are all kinds of ways to protest. doing his best to strike out jim crow. they were buddies. they were pals as they like to say. better example of this impact is the 1935 bismarck semipro

championship team. it is, indeed, america's first integrated professional baseball team. there in bismarck. and what's fascinating, you can count it for yourself. you can see all the blacks, right? you can see vernon johnson there with his hand on satchel paige's shoulder. right in the back, to the far -- your far right standing as double duty radcliff. to your far left standing as hilton smith who i think was the last negro league player inducted in the national baseball hall of fame 2001. there have been about 18 now. satchel paige being the first. of the white players, none are more important in getting this record straight -- well, to. in the middle there, gentleman with the regular clothes, that's neil churchill who's the owner/manager and put the team together. but then to the end, i will try to point to it but i don't think my pointer will show on there.

it won't show on there. but on the -- to your far left, bottom row, there's joe desterado. he left a very good record of this team and what they did together. i mean, this was a team. this is not integration where you say, we got a plaque black. we have one black so it's integrated. they have a lot of blacks on their team. not only that, when they would come up to a restaurant that said, we don't serve blacks, the entire team left. this happened on more than one occasion. joe said, you won't feed all of us, then none of us will eat here. when they went to hotels, you want to accommodate all of us because we're mixed. we're not staying there. in fact, not only is this the first integrated team, this is the first team where blacks and whites actually room together.

because there were occasions where hotels would take them but they only had a few rooms and it meant that players would have to double up and triple up. joe said, many times satchel paige was his roommate and said these folks spent half the night telling jokes, cracking jokes back and forth, so forth. indeed, this is the first documented team where blacks and whites actually room together. paige was very proud of having been a part of the bismarck team. in fact, double duty radcliff told me, that was his proudest moment, being a member of that team. and you can see what paige said about it. i cracked another little chink in jim crow with the championship bismarck team. they were virtually unstoppable with the combination of talent they had.

negro league players participated in the double "v" campaign during world war ii. the double "v," freedom over there and over here. victory over there and over here. raises them over there and end here. the double "v" campaign that negro league ballplayers and ball owners all bought into. many, of course, going and serving in military service. others staying home, but doing what you could for the war cause. paige is paving the way. he's disproving this notion that

blacks are not capable of playing major league baseball on the west coast, his barn storming, et cetera. paige is interviewed in 1942 on the question of the integration of baseball. and he says, which is very interesting, because i've read all the accounts of what he actually said. it's clear to me that he had serious doubts about the integration of baseball. and he says, because what will happen is, he says, and i think what they want, they want our fans. they want our fan base. we're outdrawing the major leagues in games. we're packing them in. et cetera. we think they want our fans. he says, if you want to integrate, you know, take whole teams, whole black all-star teams into the majors. another point paige said, if they were really interested in increasing the talent of their teams, they won't just maybe

some day take one or two players because we have bunches of players who are good enough to play in major league baseball. effa manly's warning was even more to the point. leave it to miss manly. she said this, after particularly jackie robinson is signed on with the montreal farm team. farm team of the brooklyn dodgers in 1945, which meant that if he did well there, he might be called up to the team, the brooklyn dodgers. she said this -- the moment robinson puts on a dodgers uniform, you can begin counting the days to the deaf of the negro leagues. there were a few many negro league players who were questioning what integration might mean in terms of his negative impact on their livelihood. in one of my interviews, the

last interview with 2005, he died the following year in 2006 at the age of 94, he said this, we should have, in fact, supported our ne gechlt ro leagues and they should have taken whole teams into the majors or at least make the negro leagues part of the farm system of the majors. but i want you to hear just three minutes of what he also said in my interview with him. it starts off with me saying stuff. i think you can recognize my voice even back then. but then there's buck o'neill because he takes it a step further. so, listen up. >> our own people rather than being in an environment we control rather than over here and they see this as the big

time. i think that's the integration. >> they did. [ inaudible ] >> not only that -- [ inaudible ] black businesses in this country. anybody black, has potential -- this is big business. it's a big business. new york city. we're seeing times square. [ inaudible ] >> the man -- the woman that has the restaurant a small hotel

with black. it was a black-owned business. [ inaudible ] d.c., chicago, all these. integration. [ inaudible ] you know what i'm saying? he couldn't compete with that. the supermarket, the black man owns the supermarket. you know what i'm saying? >> same thing happened in miami. [ inaudible ] we were doing work on that with a gentleman down there who was one of the leading -- during that period, bringing in acts. they were all playing on the court in south beach and then

they come over to st. john's. >> that's right. >> and that's where the great music was. >> we were looking later at the whole destruction, just tear it up. particularly when the so-called laws of segregation came down, we found barber shops, cleaners, restaurants, hotels. [ inaudible ] frank sinatra said -- san diego state, they were on the beach

with us. sir john -- >> yeah, yeah. [ inaudible ] >> so, i wanted you to hear that portion about his comments because of the robert was asking me this question earlier and most of the negro league players i interviewed had real doubts about the benefit of integration and the integration of baseball because it destroyed the negro leagues. so i think this raises a lot of interesting questions. was integration, should have been empowerment or what? these kind of questions come to the forefront when you factor in satchel paige and negro league baseball into the civil rights movement. let me stop at that point and open it up for any questions you might have.

any questions? comments? just raise your hand. so thorough? no questions. >> i have a question. >> who? here? >> so, i was remembering when you spoke about how -- how long satchel paige's career was, and he was over 60 -- almost 60 years old in major league baseball. do you know approximately how many seasons he was in professional major league baseball? >> yeah. he played two seasons for cleveland, '48, '49. two seasons with the browns, '51, '2 and '3 with the browns. so, it's a total of actually five. he then -- that last shot of him

pitching three innings in 1965, he was shortly on the -- what were then the can city athletics. and he pitched three innings. so he has a career that spans just a tremendous amount of time. not just in this country, but abroad as well, playing all through latin america and the caribbean. we don't have time to get through all of that, but that kind of impact. >> thank you. >> question here. >> why do you think jackie robinson got so much more credit than satchel paige in terms of integrating and baseball itself. >> i think that -- well, jackie was the first. that's where the focus will be. coming into the majors.

always the first gets that kind of attention. i think the case of robinson, rightly so. if he were here, i'm sure he would tell you exactly what i said. he played on the kansas city monarchs for a short period of him into the dodger organization. he was -- he was the first. but people like satchel paige and the other great negro league players, they paved the way. by, in fact, showing constantly that blacks can play at that level can excel at these levels. you won't get the riots because the blacks and whites are at the baseball field together. that happened on so many occasions, no riots in these games and they were packing them in. large audiences, which the majors were taking notice of. in fact, kenshaw landis, baseball commissioner, tried to stop the black -- the barn

storming out west and the california winter league. because he thought it was bad for major league baseball. many thought it was bad because major league baseball players were getting whipped by çnegro league players. part of it, too, was the money involved. the players wanted to do this. the white players, black players. they wanted to do -- white ballplayers weren't paid like they're paid today. they needed the money. you could be a heck of a player and you're making $5,000 a year. that's better than the average person but we often forget jackie robinson signed for $5,000 a year, his original contract. i mean, there are going to be very few like babe ruth, you know, in his heyday in 1929 when he made that famous contract of, what was it,$80,000. more than the president of the united states.

herbert hoover made $59,000. they said, how do you feel, you're making more than the president? he said, i had a better year than the president. but like the mega salaries today. it's just -- doesn't even equate. but robinson gets the credit. and one of the interesting things in my conversation with sharon robinson, i didn't even get to finish the question. i started to ask her, i said, do you think, looking at your father's life, that the integration of baseball -- and she just cut me off. she said, yes, i think the integration of baseball cost him his life. i think it tore away at him. and so forth. he developed the diabetes, all the stress, she said, because he kept it inward. you know, he died at age -- age 53. she was convinced it was the stress of all of it. it had to be really rough. the moving "42" doesn't come close to the reality of it.

we have a question there in the back. >> did satchel paige keep up his flashy show even when he got to the major leagues? did he have to keep that tame? >> exactly right. no. he didn't keep up his flashy show in the major leagues. the only thing he did that reminded people of -- i mean, he trash talked constantly. that's -- in fact, when he didn't trash talk, he didn't pitch well. when he started trash talking, he could pitch well. you know, he needed that. but no double wind mile windups and all that. by that time, the high kick ballplayers not using it anymore. can you imagine trying to pitch a whole game kicking your leg up that high? you know, you'd be worn out in the first inning, right? so, no, he basically doesn't do that. but he's great for the press. he's great for the fans, giving interviews, giving these

paige-isms, you know, satchel-isms to the constantly -- to the press, making predictions, rules of life, how to relax and soothe the stomach. he goes on and on and on. yes, right here. >> how would you compare the integration of the major leagues to the integration of, like, say the public school systems in the broader context of the civil rights movement? >> that's an interesting -- very interesting comparison. well, what's interesting -- when you get a chance, take a look at derek bell's book "silent covenants "and the and he looks at post-brown decisions. schools are not integrated. that's largely reality, particularly at the lower echelons rather than colleges and universities.

communities still tend to be segregated. most seg greregated institution america is the church. go in any church, blacks, whites. and bell makes the argument that what should have been done was to pump money into equal, the separate but equal clause. pump money into making it equal. in other words, pump more money into the black schools and so forth. make it actual ly equal because he said the rest doesn't work. when i'm interviewing these black ballplayers. you could hear it in the words, see it in the words of mrs. manly and satchel paige d and -- and buck o'neill. when paige in '42 makes his statements, sounds like he's critical of integration, i mean, it is the black press that jumps all over him.

it is black fans who jump all over him. i mean, the man retracts, you know, i really didn't mean it like that. , et cetera. in the case of jackie robinson, you were asking, when jackie robinson goes to the dodgers, he's taken from the kansas city monarchs. they get no compensation. they just come in and take him, et cetera. and j.r. wilkinson saying -- and it becomes a news item. he says, you know, we should be compensated for taking our ballplayers and so forth. and the press picks up on that. i'm talking about the black press. they condemn him for saying, sounds like you're anti-integration and such a flood of condemnation. wilkinson backs off. we wish him all the best. and that's the reality. in terms of these kind of thoughts about should you develop a black business and so forth. this was not at the forefront. it seemed to be a focus on

integration, quite frankly. others will say, i want my human rights. but it's being served at a lunch counter, do you want something more than that? do you want to open your own restaurant? you want to start your own bus service, your own cab service. these discussions were not really at the forefront. you see it in the question of the schools. i don't have to tell you what the situation is in public schools. you can sum it up in two words -- a disaster. wish i had something nicer to report, but -- other questions? we still have a couple minutes left. i zoomed over a lot and you saw me cut some things out so we could have time for discussion.

if you're not going to have some questions, i'm going to add one back in. i cut out -- i cut out when satchel paige is riding off to reform school on the l&n train in louisville/nashville train. going to reform school. scared to death. young kid. there's four or five of them and local ministers are escorting them to mt. mayex which is 140 miles up to mobile, across to montgomery. 15, 20 miles from montgomery, alabama. but what's so symbolic about that train ride. if he had a crystal ball, i mean, if he had had a crystal ball and could have looked

forward, that same l&n train will be at the forefront of the sought against the plessy decision. because in 19941944, william st fireman working for the l&n out of mobile, he was fired and replaced by a white worker because his job had been basically a negro job, as they called it. with the steam engines you were shoveling coal into the boiler. it was a dirtily, filthy, quote/unquote negro job. now he just had to push a button, sit down and enjoy the ride. it becomes an easy job, so others want the job. he's fired and replaced by a white worker. he sues. the lawyer who takes his case is charles hamilton houston. some of you heard that name.

who takes his case. they go through the alabama courts and they lose. alabama rules against him. it's taken all the way to the supreme court. steel versus the l&n and the locomotive union and charles hamilton houston wins. in that particular case, if you look at justice frank murphy's writing the majority opinion, it is a blistering condemnation of the rule of law in alabama. he says when it comes to the negro, there is no justice there whatsoever. but that case is important in 1944 case because that's a part of the body of laws that charles hamilton houston uses in his assault against plessy versus ferguson. he dies and doesn't see the

result. that's a case one of his students thurgood marshall uses. i often said if page only had a crystal ball. he would have known that the reform school is going to be good for him and that reform school lists two people as his great claim to fame, lonny holly, a well-known artist, and satchel paige. i say there, too, i say the same for babe ruth. babe ruth went to a reform scho school outside of baltimore. it was an industrial of sorts. that school when it lists its two most successful cases, george herman ruth, baby ruth, and olson who was a jewish kid who later changes his name to al

jolson and becomes one of the most famous entertainers of all time. sometimes reform schools can reform. who wants the final question? there you go. last question. >> you were talking about how when a black man integrated into the major leagues, the major leagues expected them to tame the showiness and personality of their game and their personalities. do you think that had not just an effect on the negro league but a change in the personality of black men or their sense of identity? >> i see what you mean. it was a conflicted role. when satchel paige went to cleveland, he's the second black recruited there. larry dolby who is now on a postage stamp. they never got along that well

because larry dolby was much more stoic. paige was flamboyant. he had been a star. paige is cooking catfish in his room and dolby is just appalled by this. paige bringing catfish, watermelon, whatever. dolby is like, oh, my goodness. but very different styles. there is one point where dolby tells him you know you can't do that negro league kind of thing here. dolby played for the newark eagles. he finally did get some compensation for larry

scoreboard and all of that sort of thing. he loved the flamboyant, but he would do it at certain times. there are episodes where paige and other ballplayers are playing instruments, paige is playing playing a ukulele. when he took over the marlins, one of the first games to build the community spirit and get people out to the game, the first game he got satchel paige and flew him in by helicopter and landed him in the middle of

the field. paige got out and sat in a rocking chair for the rest of the game. he loved these kinds of stunts. it brought out fans. okay. well, we'll see you next time at our regular meeting place. thank you. you are watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on cspan3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv, we'll hear about president warren harding's long-term love affair detailed in letters recently released by the library of congress. the former president's grand nephew explains why his family insisted on keeping the letters seal a