andte she said she did maybe she did. im not saying she did not, but what i am saying is we do not have conclusive evidence that she did. whether that kind of conclusive evidence is important to you as , astizen, as an interpreter --historian, as a journalist you know, i am a documentary editor. i stand corrected by ken boling. i will absolutely add that into a note that specifies for the dolley madison digital edition. but we only know what we know. >> we are out of time. [applause]

>> welcome back, everybody. "america under fire." -- for those of you who may be just joining us, if you have one of these little devices, if you could make sure it is turned off or in silent mode, that would be fantastic. i have the pleasure of introducing dr. catherine allgor. she has the pleasure of tackling james madison's other half, and some would say better half, dolley madison. dr. catherine allgor has written a few books, including "a perfect union." most recently, she annotated and edited an important memoir written by dolley madison's niece. she is professor of history at the university of california at riverside. today, she will discuss the republican queen's identity

during the war. the time when her drawing room and events became known as squeezes. they were so popular. i have also heard that she will maybe mention the role of snuff. i would encourage all of you to go take a look at dolley isison's snuff box, which over at the decatur box. we just brought that from montpelier today. it is on a rare visit to washington, d.c. with that, please join me in welcoming dr. catherine allgor. [applause] pillier today. please join me in welcoming dr. katherine algore. >> thank you so much for that lovely introduction. i'm tempted to just say forget about my speech, let's go look at the snuff box. but, no, no, no. i'm very happy and honored to be here with such a distinguished set of scholars and, if i may

say, an even more distinguished and lovely audience. thank you so much to bill and to the white house historical association, to the u.s. capital historical society and of course james madison's montpelier for asking me and getting me here. thanks to the huntington library for giving me the day off. the slogan -- don't give up the ship. the figure of uncle sam. the star spangled banner. the proliferation of symbols that emerged from the war of 1812 constitutes a paradox. though as this conference demonstrates, much recent scholarship on the causes, conduct and legacies of the war has produced fresh insights about the costs and gains of the war, even the combatants. at the time the treaty was signed, americans understood that peace gained them little in policy, international power or

territory. on the one hand it seems contradictory that such a wealth of symbolism emerged out of such a feckless endeavor. on the other hand, the very futile nature of the war may have precisely accounted for its symbolic booty. the victory that temporary americans and many later historians claimed was a psychological one. as member of the peace delegation, it was observed, "the war has renewed and reinstated the national feelings and character which the revolution had given and which were a daily lessoning." he said the war made citizens feel more american. they feel and act more as a nation and i hope the permanency of the union is thereby better secured. so appreciating both sides of this paradox may explain the national energy that took an account of a fairly mundane battle and set it to the tune of an old drinking song and made it

a national anthem. some of the most potent images to emerge from the war of 1812 are those of dolly pad son. facing down the enemy. fleeing the burning capital. saving the gilbert stewart portrait and otherwise demonstrating harrowism under fire. what i'm arguing to you today is that part of the reason that dolly's american audience seized upon these images endowing them with a historical heft that would propel them through the centuries -- we all know these images -- is that they were really a culmination of a process. and the process was dolly's construction of a political identity. and she began when she was the wife of the secretary of state in 1801. she would have no idea what was going to be happening 12 to 14 years later, of course. but it turns out that what she did was precisely right. now this idea of constructing an

identity is one of the most rich and fruitful historical inquiries in the last 50 years. there's a whole literature on identity and it is far are too wide and varied, to be summarized here, but at the risk of oversimplification, here are some commonalities to this identity constructing process. identity making can occur at the individual level. a single person and at a larger collective level. and of course, sometimes they operate both at the same time. sill larly, identity processes can happen both consciously and unconsciously. these dynamics about identity mark the awareness and manipulation of the self which makes it a modern phenomenon. people are becoming at this time, aware of selves. you can see a lot of ten nets of identity theory play. in her time and. place she was offered and accepted probably unconsciously the roles provided by her

culture around those roles were southerner, lady, political hostess, along with the more common roles of wife and mother. dolly added elements from european and royal cultures, however, to create her republican queen, a persona which she deployed to political effect. dolly's position as "queen" dolly resulted in her ascension as the charismatic figure for the madison administration. certainly by the time madison is inaugurated in 1809 but it would be enhanced by the outbreak of war. in the historical search for dolly's creation of this republican queen, the sources don't lie in dolly's own words. she does not discuss her work that way in her private correspondence. for evidence we must rely on the many descriptions of dolly that were supplied by those who saw her or met her, especially at

her famous wednesday night drawing rooms. generally the descriptions of dolly that peppered the letters and newspaper reports of the early republic had been regarded by historians as a form of color commentary and not the least because they are actually quite colorful. men and women reported back home on what dolly wore, served, how she moved and how she treated people. but we have to look at these descriptions not just as mere celebrity mentions. the people who regarded dolly so minutely, whether members of the ruling elite, or ordinary americans and europeans invested in the republican experiment, what they were looking for in how she looked and how she behaved, they were looking for signs and clues about the madisons themselves, maybe a specific political event, especially the declaration war, and even for the fate of the republican. so there is a lot at stake in

these descriptions. after the american revolution at a time of flux and change, with very few real political structures in place, these new americans focused on the persons of their leaders and the number one person they subjected their attention was george washington. in the early republic, people transferred this evaluative capacity to dolly. to them, dolly symbolized the heart of the madison administration, but also its true character. in political theory, the charismatic figure is a person who can convey abstract psychological and emotional messages to large groups of peep. although the psychological aspect is important to any political mileau, though some say all politics will psychological, it was especially important in the early infant republic. it influenced the way americans felt about how they were ruled

and that was key to the survival of the nation. recent scholarship, especially from historians of women's lives and gender, has revealed that the early u.s. government and the political culture that it spawned was much more dependent on royal forms of rule than we ever previously thought. the newly liberated colonist turned citizens it seemed not only had an appetite for aristocracy, they krafd craved t legitimacy and authority are that only they knew. as the founding men were putting together a new nation along the line of what they called "pure republicanism," that they found they might actually need the trappings of authoritarian aristocracy in order to command the widespread respect and to re-assure the people that the right kind of people were ruling them. now this is a tricky balance to achieve. how much was too much in the quest to repurpose the old

vocabulary of aristocracy to convey the legitimacy of the national experiment. perhaps federalists such as washington and john adams would have freely brought back the aristocratic practices. we have evidence of that. a number of americans, hou however -- the ones who would be republican followers of thomas jefferson wanted nothing to do with the old world and kept a sharp eye out for encroaching aristocracy. so as it turned out, this aristocracy/republican balance came down on one side of the other in a lot of different ways. one of the ways this tension played out is issues of power often do was on the field of gender. so in the end, the women of the ruling elite were given the task of conveying the arisk krchriar message to the masses. because they were a lot more private they had a lot more latitude than men to do that. the genius of this persona i am

talking about, the republican queen stwhab it made a bold declaration on this issue mixing extremes on both sides for maximum effect. so dolly combined a regal, visual persona with a personality that seemed down right democratic and put it to use at her social events. report after report, mostly favorable, described her regal bearing and fantastical costumes as dolly presided offense her drawing room. over and over her guests cautioned her demeanor is so far removed from the hautier generally carried on royty that her fancy can carry no further than the headdress. she was a queen, many proclaim her that. but as a new york congressman said, she was a queen of hearts. james had employed dolly's personifying gifts during the difficult decision to declare war and how he did this allowed

him to hold the warhawks at bay while he weighed options for peace. it's during this time that dolly and henry clay make several noted and publicized appearances, thus signaling to watchers, political watchers, that though james could not officially embrace the warhawks' agenda, he was not discounting it altogether. now there seems to have been no hint of sexual impropriety in the stories that circulated about dolly and henry clay, unless one counts the symbol of sharing a snuff box. see, to you we went a different way here, kat. both dolly and henry claire shared their addiction to the substance and dolly's public sharing of her snuff box with clay was read by all and sundry as a sign of henry clay's favor within the madison administration. like many, sara gel seton, sister of one newspaper editor and wife of the other, thought

taking snuff a bad habit. she admitted that in dolly's hands the snuff box, "seems only a gracious implement within which to charm." little b a political commentator saw it as "a most magical influence." she said, for who could partake of its contents of offered them in a manner so cordial and gracious and retain a feeling inimitable to the interest of the bestower? in this way, dolly had henry clay on a kind of political string as it were while james decided what to do. dolly's persona was firmly in place in washington city when the u.s. congress declared war on great britain in june 1812. shortly after the declaration, the president was if what we moderns would call a public relations nightmare. though the people of the time did not have the vidocabulary,

they recommended his dilemma as such. "the difficulties of his situation have increased in a great degree." as far as burwell was concerned, madison's only hope lay in influencing public sentiment by some brilliant achievement. that's not a bad thought. but unfortunately for james madison, the war went badly right from the beginning. so the madisons' chance for a brilliant achievement lay with dolly who took her symbolizing capacity to a new level. her brilliant achievements were not the dramatic stuff of military victories and battles at sea. their execution and effects were subtler, if as significant. dolly's war time efforts intensified her prewar work. she had always used her social circles to bring people together, in large gatherings, which allowed them to fulfill

their own political goals while fulfilling the madisons' political goal of unity. in the first congressional season after the declaration, dolly began her social campaign early, returning to the capitol after only one in montpelier, according to her, in the midst of business and anxiety, anxious for the fate of the war only. throughout the war, she gave more parties than ever before and it's interesting as you read her letters, she uses a phrase i just find very telling about these parties. she calls them the routine of dayt gaety. before the war, her drawing rooms became known as squeezes because there were 200 to 300 guests crammed into the oval room. but war time wednesdays house up to 500. that first month of the congressional season after the declaration, dolly's butler left her for france and she told her

cousin, and jails' personal secretary, edward coles, "i am acting in his department and the city is more than ever crowded with strangers. my head is dizzy." no one was more visible at her parties than queen dolly. though personally she was as partisan as any man in congress, because she was a woman, dolly could be seen as politically neutral. men of parties had interests dictated by their political needs. but women could be disinterested, simply patriotic for their own sakes. her work transcended her political affiliation. since men were associated with one party or the other, no male, not even the president, could represent the united states. because, of course, in theory, as a woman, she was above politics, dolly could appear to the american public and european observers as a larger than life embodiment of disinterested

patriotism and nation. during the war of 1812 then, dolly became not just the charismatic figure for james madison, but for america. now her famed abilities to draw people to her had an urgent, larger purpose. her mission was to convey to the capital and to the country that the government was working, and that the war was being conducted well. she presented a picture of calm optimism and unquestioning support. military troops had begun honoring her by parading past her house when she was the wife of the secretary of state. now they march by the white house to be reviewed by her and she did so as a general would. dolly then invited the soldiers in and served them refreshments, "giving liberally of the best of the house." she made a lot -- perhaps too much -- of the few military victories that came the united

states' way and of the men responsible. and i think dr. lambert said earlier, the biggest surprise of the war was how well the navy performed. now we know how little it really good them, it is really amazing what dolly made of it. so as you heard, in the 1812 naval campaign, american forces captured the british ships, and the office is presented the captured ships' colors or flags to dolly in very public ceremonies. as the president's secretary edward coles arranged the first of these presentations, in a culture where intelligence traveled slowly, such displays were a welcome source of good news, in enveloping the public what had happened and heartening them. dolly was very conscious of this honor paid to her and the country during the presentation of the macedonian's colors, it was noted quarterback the flush of pride and patriotism that suffused dolly's face. she was standing in the crowd

and she said, i saw her color come and go. as always, dolly's visibility cut both ways and her position as a "disinterested patriot" did not go unquestioned. political enemies tried to turn events against her. particularly a federalist tv;ey÷

are carrying the flag to her, this is according to her niece, commodore stewart let his end fall either by accident or designed, the motive has been much questioned. according to dolly, it was another lady crying out, "trample on it, trample on it," and dolly drew back saying, "oh, no, not so," while the lady advanced and put her foot on it. as the war advanced, the fears of invasion among the district's residents grew. it did not help matters when those in the capital began to hear tales of civilian intimidation brought by the commander of naval operations, sir george coburn. dolly's job as the face of the war became even more crucial. she might write privately to her cousin about the atmosphere of fears and alarms. she was afraid. but the populous looked to her

and though found assurance. "i assure you, i do not believe there is the smallest cause for alarm." and what was the proof? it was proof of how the ladies were reacting led by dolly. "i do not perceive the least alarm among the women. they perceive the ample means taken to defend them and are well aware of their safety." so in her role as a stand-in for her husband, dolly madison attracted both positive and negative attention. during the summer of 1813 coburn fed the fears of invasion while threatening her. while relating to ed card the details of the plot wherein british rogues were to land in alexandria under cough of darkness and set fire to the white house, dolly confessed, i do not tremble at this but feel affronted that the admiral should send me notice that he would make his bow at my drawing room soon.

surely her bravado was a bit of a pose. she could be forgiving dreading a man with what she called a savage style of warfare. the panic in washington city abated somewhat when coburn did not attack in the summer of 1813 but the panic returned stronger than ever the next year and it turns out of course they were absolutely right to panic. the invasion of washington city began in the early mornings of august 19th, 1814, as a british force of 4,000 landed at benedict, maryland and the main port of the pituxit river. dolly remained coburn's rhetorical focus when he sent word unless miss madison left the house would be burned offense her head. notice he doesn't mention james in this, nor does he include james in the other threat which is to capture her as a prisoner of war and parade her through the streets.

on august 23rd, james left the white house in order to review the troops in the field and the national intelligence reported the rumor that 5,000 or 6,000 british troops had joined the force already are in maryland. this really panicked washington signaling a mass exodus. alone in the white house, except for her servants and slaves, dolly was poised to make her name in history. now the story that we know of dolly's most famous day and the subsequent crafting of her historical legacy will be crafted tomorrow by holly schulman in this program. i would conclude by dolly's ability to achieve historical fame after the war was a direct result of this experiment in identity making that rendered her the queen of washington city, long before the first shots were fired in the war of 1812. if at the end of the war -- and dr. lambert talked about this -- most americans understood that

the victory was psychological, then dolly's symbolizing work made that sense of victory possible. thank you very much. >> thanks so much. now is my favorite time, questions and answers. as we said, we have a microphone there. and i think maybe some traveling around with a mike. does anyone have questions? yes. ask a question, i'll repeat it. >> how much of dolly's performance was dictated by her husband's inability to say yes or no -- [ inaudible ] >> right. so this is a question about contrasting dolly's performance

with james' performance, or norn-performance, if you will. a lot has been made of the contrast between dolly madison and james madison. she is this sort of tall shapely vivacious woman, never forgets a name, a face or a family pedigree, proving her a true southerner. warm and lovely and all that. of course, everybody likes to make fun of james madison. washington irving calls him a wh withered little. apple john. there's all kinds of famous quotes about him. don't want to load up on james madison with the president here. but there's two things -- so it is easy to make that contract. of course they are a great team. but there's two things i think that we have to remember. he is an ind electrici true int. he constructed a lovely theory on which to run a government. i'm going to tell that you theory is not going to work. it is going to become a

democracy in about 30 years and it is going to be two parties and pretty much their vision of the republic is going to fade away. they don't know this at that time. what dolly madison did, along with her other female colleagues, is endeavor to take this lovely theory, this lovely machine of government, and put it into action. and by putting into action, discovering its strengths and weaknesses -- so for instance, in the lovely theory that james madison has, there's no place for anything, you know, monarchmonarc monarch monarchical or aristocratic. well, you can't really run a government that way. it is dolly and her colleagues that begin to build the first patronage machines in washington, d.c. borrowing from royal courts in order to try to make this theory work. i think that's something. so you understand that when everybody's describing dolly and how fabulous she is, she's like a queen, they're also describing james in a positive way. that is, by saying look at this

guy, there is no way he is going to be the charismatic male figure that we fear in a republic. that was the big fear. that somebody like george washington with his sword and over 6'0", that he was going to take over and become an emperor. napoleon, for all of his height, he was a charismatic figure. so they are a great contrast for the people of the time. here's little quiet james madison in his republican broad cloth. he's not a threat to anybody, butas dolly, not a threat because she is a woman, appears and gives everybody this kind of authority that -- and legitimacy that royalty kind of imparts. the other thing i want to say about them -- and they are two very different people, you can say intellectual, not intellectual, intervert. they are both and hosbhorrent t conflict. they are both striving for his goal and his goal is national unity. in everything that she does publicly, you can see her enacting his goal.

so for all that they look so different, they have values in common. sometimes that worked out well for them and sometimes it didn't. but it was something profound that they shared. >> i get very frustrating when i hear descriptions of madison that are demeaning to him. i think part of the reason is because the men who said it of him were jealous of him. when you think that she was probably the most well known and admired woman of her generation, if he was as unattractive and unassuming and quiet and his tummy hurt, how did he win the most popular and beautiful woman of his day? >> we're talking about -- >> and he kept her until he was in her 80s and she was still in love with him. what man in here can say something like that? >> oh, my lord! do i not want to see a show of hands. well, now this is very interesting. you got right to it. which is of course, there's all these terrible descriptions of

james and they're awful. of course they are all political and of course people were probably jealous because he was the smartest guy if the room. the question is why did, at 26 years old, dolly payne todd, a widow with a son, and a little bit of money, choose james ma madison to marry. in fact, she chooses him so quickly, that it is a shame -- people are so shocked she gets married within a year after had her husband dies in the yellow fever epidemic. and actually, we have pretty good evidence that he was pretty swept away by her. but who wouldn't be, she's very beautiful. but very little that this was all love's young dream to dolly madison. one thing we have is a letter written on her wedding day which basically justifies her marriage to james as being good for her son. she slinz the letter to her friend dolly todd, her maiden name. when she is married, she writes dolly madison alas. we don't know what that's about. we do know that they fall in love after some point.

that happens in marriage, people. and they become fabulous. why did she choose him? she could have had a pick of anyone. this is where we wish our sources would write at a convenient time and place for historians. is that she had grown up in the world of chattel slave holding in the virginia gentry and she might have had very golden memories of her childhood. no doubt enhanced by the fact that her father freed his -- about nine slaves and -- and when she's 15 moves the family to philadelphia which is very cold compared to anything down south. didn't move to richmond, to philadelphia. because he wanted to be in the center of the quaker world. by the time she's 26 and considering marriage to james madison, she's been up north for ten years and terrible things have happened. there's a yellow fever epidemic. she loses her child, loses her child. her father dies probably after depression. i think all of her brothers are dead by that point.

it is terrible in philadelphia. just a terrible time. so i think that there's a part of her that looked at this quite likely man and thought, i could go back to that place of my childhood. and in fact go back at a higher sort of station because she'd be the mistress of montpelier. the part i can't believe she didn't think about but we have no sources, what did the idea of returning to a slave holding state mean to her? she was just a virginia miss. you would say, well, she didn't think about it. but her parents were quakers. there was a lot of stuff about slavely and abolition, sort of ahead of its time. her father gave the slaves freedom because of this and that was the reason she ended up in philadelphia. so i don't know if she had qualms about returning to a slave holding society. or whether she went without a backward glance. but some day somebody's going to find a trunk of letters and tell me what i need to know.

>> thomas jefferson said he was the most brilliant speaker along with pendleton that he had ever heard so he is not a quiet little man. >> james madison was a formidable intellect and a speaker. i do think we have to take these many descriptions of madison for what they are which is politics. ralph, this is the biographer of james madison, ralph ketchum. >> doesn't it say somewhere on there that i'm going to see the great little madison? >> right. so i have to say -- of course, madison is famous so dolly madison when she meets james madison, she's in the capital of the united states at that point, in philadelphia. and congress is there. and she has heard of what she called the great little madison. i have to say that -- i just have to acknowledge you as the biographer of madison, but also the savior of many of dolly's papers. so when ralph ketchum was doing his wonderful biography of madison, he would note where he saw a dolly paper here and there. people keep women he's papers

differently than they keep men's. so it was really wonderful to have. one of the papers that came up that exists now only in mic microfilm -- thanks to you -- is a version of the memoir written by dolly's niece, mary cutts. use the "memoir" this way because most of the stuff in the memoir happens before she's even born. we kind of think it as the closestclose est automatic auto biographical information we have. >> dolly is first lady for eight years during madison's administration. >> yes. >> jefferson is a widower in the previous eight years. and james monroe who serves the next eight years after madison, his wife is somewhat limited in her ability to be in the public eye. so could you talk about how dolly her role as first lady expand in either one of those

administrations? >> yes. so this is a question about dolly and her role as first lady. first, i would pity anybody who followed dolly madison. she was an act to follow. sadly for elizabeth monroe, people noted it. it was noted by people. and luisa katherine adams who would go on to follow miss monroe, she's just not dear dolly. once you understand there is this tension between aristocracy and republicanism or democracy, you can see the united states wrestling with it. so when eliz gettiabeth monroe with her polish from the continent, she tries to set things on a more formal set of footing, on ceremony and not great success. she didn't have that touch where dolly could really blend those tw.l@%3 absolutely. i also have to say -- i owe this to have to say and i owe this to holly, she'll be talking

tomorrow, too much was made of the fact that thomas jefferson was a widower and dolley madison was a stand-in for him. it was true, when there were ladies at the table, he would ask dolley and her sisters to come in, though he had his daughter, martha jefferson randolph. but concentrating or thinking about dolley sort of waiting in the wings for the presentation of the president's mansion obscures the fact that what she was really doing during those years. thomas jefferson feared aristocracy and cut out socializing and kept new year's and the fourth of july but that was it. there were to be no parties where women and unofficial characters, as he called women in the court years, were going to appear. he had the famous dinner parties with men of one party or the other because he was trying to control power. what was happening, however, in the house of the secretary of state during those years is

dolley was building a mini empire there. that's the place in washington. you could see the white house all dark up there but the house on s street was all light and where the republicans and -- she was building a political sell-on there and that certainly becomes most apparent when jefferson with the diplomacy between great britain and the united states screeches to a halt. it's important to look atçmk th thomas jefferson years not as a stand-in for the first lady but she's building a power base and it's no wonder when james madison is elected, the people of the town are very happy to have mrs. madison as president of s. >> developing criticism of madison, wasn't it simply the

unfortunate circumstance of seceding thomas +++p[z victors, which is in-fighting. with thomas jefferson sort of sweeping into town with this new party, the federalists were on their way out and they were going to let go without a fight and they were still on their way out. instead of holding together and katherine mitchell said, why do they keep fighting, they are just trying to pull and splinter with them. james madison's greatest enemies

were his fellow republicans. so thank you very much. [ >> you are watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook. returningngress monday, here is a message to congress from one of the student cap competition winners. >> water. it makes up 75% of our bodies. take water away and humanity would perish within a week. water is the most vital substance to a human body and it is because of us humans that nearly 50% of all lakes and estuaries are unsuitable for use

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three or four years. getting letters from home saying the farm is falling to pieces. when are you going to come home? so there is a large problem with desertions at that time. not from the standpoint of soldiers not wanting to go into battle, it was just that their heartstrings were being pulled by their families needing them back home. what lee had imposed was a fairly strict set of orders. several occurrences of this happening. morale wasso low -- so low, about this time, "les miserables" came out. several troops saw it on the shelf and said, that is us, lee's miserables.

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