but i hope they'll still be my friends afterwards. i think that there is a certain amount of diffidence, a certain amount of anxiousness, discomfort about the whole enterprise of cultural production, particularly cultural production in what i consider to be that narrow understanding. and by the narrow understanding, i mean cultural production that is really sort of about the use and deployment of our imaginative energies, our expressive energies, our inventive energies to sort of, to sort of take us beyond the everyday dredgery of everyday life. i mean this is leisure and interstatement. we think of art as culture. we think of music as culture. we think of comedy as culture. the way we dress as culture.

but this to me is culture in the very narrow sense. i'll talk about the broad sense in a minute. most of our conversations i think about culture are culture in that narrow sense. when it comes to culture in the narrow sense, we have some lingering questions. and i think it was in part reflected in -- i guess it was a twitter that you received. if we want to talk about music, what is islam's stance on music. how do we recognize the whole business of musical compression with the parameters of islam that we understand to be something that we are responsible for in terms of how we go forth and charge the efrds realities of life. so that's another challenge that we have. and i think, quite frankly, what we need are much more open discussions about these things. but i think the worst place that muslims can find themselves is in this never-never land where

they're perilized. you know, i listen to music, but i'm not sure i should. i play music but -- no. this kind of paralysis can breed that double conscienceness that is the depth of a healthy psychological life for any community. we need to face these issues. by the way, it's not just music. it's film. if i'm writing literature, can i use an expletive? all these kinds of issues that we have to confront. and i think that this is another part of the problem. the third problem is that for us in america, when we start talking about quote unquote an islamic culture, i think most of us tend to think in mono terms. that is to say there's going to

be a single quote unquote american muslim culture that's going to emerge and that's going to position itself as the overseer of all cultural production of muslims. we're going to end up with a culture orthodoxcy. i'm talking about some of us will have sort of cultural preclifties that go in one direction and others in another direction and both will be trying to claim these. we end up with underground gorilla wars as us as muslims. one of the things we need to do is recognize if islam is pluralistic -- i see no need to think that we will be monolithic

culturally speaking. i think one of the major challenges for us, especially as muslims in america -- if you look around this room, we're unlike, to my knowledge, any other community in the world. we have to redevelop a civics of pluralism. one that recommend niezs the fact that there are many different way to go about this thing. when your way is different from mine, i'm not so insecure that i have to tear you down because i see only one possibility. you know, we really have to get over this. and i think that, you know, many of us in here, you know, we agree with this in principle but somehow we've not acquired the skills, we've not acquired the soul force to accommodate it in everyday life. when we go on here we see a sister dressed in a way -- we

see a brother -- we hear -- and we engage in these microaggressions. right? you know, we don't necessarily say anything. we let people know they're not really appreciated in our midst. all right? and these are precisely the kinds of things that breed the internal bleeding. you know what i mean? it's like, you know, if i insult you in a way that's explicit, i can apologize and you can accept my apology. you follow what i mean? but a microaggression, you know, a little slight, all right, you can't even acknowledge that i slighted you because then that puts you in a position of weakness vis-a-vis me. so you internally plead and you hate my guts. this is what we have in so many aspects of our community. we got to find ways of overcoming this kind of thing. so i think those are some of the challenges -- do i have three more minutes?

one? that wasn't seven -- all right. she's got a fast cultural watch. i want to shift very quickly to what i think is a very important dimension. one of the dangers i see we start talking about america muslim culture and many of us take this, you know, as an excuse to sort of whereby you know, run to our own cultural bubble as muslims. we feel good about ourselves as muslims and we've gotten rid of the sort of conflicts within culturally speaking among us as muslims. yet we forget, all right, that we are a smart part of a much larger society. and the fact of the matter is that while success in that regard may change the way we see ourselves, it will be limited in terms of the way that others see us. and when you're a minority in

any context, racial, gender, religious, whatever, the way that the majority sees you will ultimately affect the way you see yourself. and i think we have to recognize that culture -- someone did say culture is not just the culture, artistic expression in that narrow sense. culture is about the way society call brats the sensibilities of its people to produce meaning and to produce ways of looking at feeling and sensing the world. that's what culture really is. and what we have now is a culture in the broad sense where the american people find it very easy to believe the most monstrous things about us. all right? that's not a manner of rationality. that's a matter of which their sensibilities have been cally

brated. that's a matter of how means have been created that make these things so believable about us. and one of the things that we have to understand is that we, as muslims in america, we have to acquire the ability to have an impact on that culture in the broadest sense. because if we don't here -- and i'm going to read it and i'll stop because i can feel you. this is real important to me. one of the reasons that it's important to me is that i think that many of us think that all of our problems will be solved by politics. i don't think think that politics is unimportant. all right? but if the culture in the broad sense of the society in which we live does not change, no matter what rights we get, the culture will interpret those rights and apply the rights in ways that it sees fit, not in ways that we see fit. politics alone won't get it. i want to read you something that haunts me.

it absolutely haunts me. this is from that ma famous german philosopher. if i can find it. you got me nervous. now i can't find anything. he talks about the fact -- maybe i'll have to paraphrase it. he talks about the fact that it is -- it is -- it is europe's duty to prepare the way for that time when the good european comes into the proper possession of his destiny. and that destiny is to super vise the culture of the world. he's talking about the way we see the world, including ourselves in the world.

and muslims have to understand that here in america our culture production has to include an intellectual effort that rearranged aspects of the broader culture of america. because only in that way will we be able to get nonmuslim americans to see themselves and to see themselves differently. we have to understand that all of this is a part of culture production. and i'll stop there. [ applause ] >> all right. you think i'd know technology by now. okay. well up next we have zaid shay kir. hey's founder of zaytuna college. he's been a long time advocate

of sustainable living and consumer practices. he's written extensively on these subjects along with a host of other concerns. he and been active with a number of relief and development organizations, among them islamic relief. zaid has been named as one of the most 500 influential muslims in the world. our question is you've often been noted as someone who is critical of cultural trends, particularly after a poem you wrote on the topic which seemed to coincide with the happy muslims that came out. can you elaborate on what the possible dangers are and what your solutions are in a way that one can be muslim or american would compromising either identity? [ speaking foreign language ]

>> so to be responding to that question, i think that we have to acknowledge there are many different ways of defining culture. those who have been listening carefully have heard several from the previous two speakers, dr. suad and dr. jackson here. i'd like to begin looking at this question through another definition, one that's been implied by dr. jackson towards the ends of his comments, and that is culture as the sum total of all socially transmitted behavior.

so in that sense, it's sometimes broken down to the level of symbols, so words, for example. symbols, heroes, such as our prophets. rituals, such as our prayer, our fasting and other -- then then values. and the former three are sometimes seen as informing the ladder but also expressions of the ladder to a certain extent. now, as muslims, if we consider the sum total of socially transmitted behavior, our society is transmitting many

different behaviors and inputs that influence behaviors to us. some of those can be categorized as distinctly islamic. for those of us who are muslims. so those of us, particularly those who converted but even certainly true for many who haven't, who had that islamic moment in their lives where they consciously became a practicing muslim even though they were born into muslim families. those things are being transmitted to us by our society. i'm here in america. i was born and raised here in america. i was not born into a muslim family. i did not grow up in a muslim neighborhood. but my society transmitted elements of islamic teachings to me that enabled me to become a

muslim. but the society is also, as dr. jackson mentioned and implied, is translating a whole lot of things to us that could be categorized as distinctly unislamic. and then of course there's a gray area where we don't know if the things society is transmitting to us are distinctly islamic or unislamic. this is something that's applied by our prophet when he said, those things that are distinctly lawful are clear. and those things that are clearly unlawful, those things are clear. [ speaking foreign language ] and between those two extremes, if you will, are gray areas, doubtful matters. most people do not know the

ruling concerning those. this is the role of scholars. so to go back to the question, i think sometimes we lack either the prop experience or the proper input from school lores to determine where a lot of those gray things in that gray area fall. and that's where a lot of experimentation and a lot of trial and error comes into play. this is where i think the issue at hand can really be fleshed out a little, in the sense that we are muslims. we're living in the context of a society that's transmitting to us a lot of things that either are clearly unislamic or they fall into that gray area. and our prophet goes on to say,

[ speaking foreign language ] -- one who is able to avoid the doubtful things escapes with their religion and the their honor intact. so many times i think we either consciously or unconsciously adopt a lot of the things in that gray area and they become grave challenges to our religion and our honor. now, our challenge is preserving our ability to hold on to those things that are clearly islamic. that's our challenge. and it's very difficult in these days and times. the prophet was shown everything that was going to be. and amongst the things he was shown is the challenges that

muslim would face at the end of time. so he said -- [ speaking foreign language ] -- at the end of time there will be days, there will be called day of patience. it will take a lot of patience to negotiate them. [ speaking foreign language ] one holding on to their religion, hear those things that are clearly islamic. one being able to pray five times a day. one being able to turn to the koran, one being able to fast would be holding on to a burning ember because of the many challenges. [ speaking foreign language ] the reward of one who continues to practice and act in those days can -- [ speaking foreign language ] -- is like the reward of 50 men.

[ speaking foreign language ] from us or from amongst them. [ speaking foreign language ] from amongst you. the reward of 50 companions. why such a great reward? the difficulty in holding on. so holding on requires that with our collective wisdom, not with any one set of inputs or any one understanding of islam, our collective wisdom input from our scholars which we are called to resort to -- [ speaking foreign language ] -- obey a law, obey the messenger and those in authorities amongst you. a -- [ speaking foreign language ] -- those who have political authority, that's legitimate, of

course, and the scholars. so this is a process that takes time. it's a process where in my estimation it's best to air on the way of caution. once things are abandoned, it's very hard to get them back. once things are critically adopted, sometimes it's very difficult to get rid of them. and as a community we are first and foremost a religious community. as a community, our first and primary concern is getting ourselves and helping other people to get to paradise. our primary concern is not this world. we have worldly concerns and it is beautifully expressed, and i'll stop here, in the words of the koran.

[ speaking foreign language ] after mentioning the importance of striving and asserting ourselves. [ speaking foreign language ] the consequence of that struggle and enduring the sacrifices that come with it will be your sin wills be forgiven. [ speaking foreign language ] and you'll be entered into gardens beneath which rivers flow. [ speaking foreign language ] and beautiful homes and gardens of eden [ speaking foreign language ] . that's the great triumph. [ speaking foreign language ] that's something else you all would love. [ speaking foreign language ] help from ayala and a speedy

victory. so the great triumph is -- and as a community we're trying and struggling and trying to negotiate our way into finding within our various cultural context the paths that lead us to paradise. and that's a difficult process. and i think sometimes we're so traumatized with trying to figure it out and deal with all of the things that were mentioned previously by the previous two panelists is because we don't allow ourselves the proper time and space to work it out. working it out sometimes takes generations. and we're trying to do it in two or three weeks or in time to respond to the latest facebook controversy. it doesn't work that way. we have to sit back and relax. we have to allow ourselves times

personally and as a community, the space and the time to experiment, to engage in this process of trial and error. but as we do it, i think we should be cognizant of the fact that many of the filters that provide us with the ability and in a certain sense the parameter to gauge what we will accept and what we will reject, that those filters are provided by the koran. and those are the guidance that has allowed a distinctive muslim community, culturally and other ways to exist in the world 140 0 years. if we accept those filters, we'll continue to be able to exist despite the mode rate and what some describe as the post-modern world.

[ speaking foreign language ] [ applause ] >> thank you, sade. we have a hashtag on twitter. it's #isna. if you have any comments, please tweet it, let us know. if you have any questions, put it out there. nothing is off limits. be as open as possible. we'll finished with our scholarly panelists here and we're going to move on to the two pabls that are we that are in the media and the arts. we're going to start with alex kronemer. he's the producer of the pbs documentary coming up which will air nationally on tuesday september 9th. it tells the amazing story of a heroic muslim woman. his other nationally broadcasts

fimmentes include "mohammed legacy of the prophet", and islamic art, mirror of the iz visible world." these films have been seen by an estimated audience of 150 million people worldwide and are part of numerous educational programs that have reached over 25,000 classrooms and libraries. the question tonight is people think of culture as what we see in the media, so movie bs, music, tv shows that are consumed, those are supposedly american values. but for those like yourself who work in the field, what is the reality? is the programming that we see today really a reflection of society and how can we integrate our own values into the things that we see? >> [ speaking foreign language ] so a first grade teacher was trying to calm down her class

after recess. and she looked out to this very busy class, little children running around an she sees a little girl standing by her desk. and she says sally, what did you do during recess? and sally said, i was playing in the sand box. and the teacher looks out to the class and said remember, sand is one of our words of the week. sally, can you spell sand? sally says s-a-n-d. excellent. put a gold star up next to your name. she's very happy. and the teacher sees this little boy jumping up and down. she says billy, what did you do during recess? billy said i was operations in the sand box with sally. well box is one of our words too. billy can you spell box? so billy things.

he e says b-o-and then he begins to strug. yes, it's a tricky one but what's the letter that makes the x sound? x. go put a star by your name. and this little boit isn't jumping around, his head is down. he looks very dejected. she says omar, what did you do during recess? omar says, well i wanted to play in the sand box with billy and sandy but they wouldn't let me. they kept throwing sand at me and telling me i should go back to where i came from. and the teacher said twhab's terrible. that's awful. that's blatant racial discrimination. omar, can you spell blatant racial discrimination? now, that's a story and it seems to express something truthful

about the american muslim experience. but it's also something that really if was out there and heard and understood, you really couldn't look at american muslim's quite the same way, particularly american muslim youth. and it gets to your question, which i would like to turn on its head. what i would like to assert is that story telling in the arts is not really about reflecting society. story telling is about making society. we've been talking about a culture, talking about perceptions of muslims. it comes in the ways in which stories are told. and i want you to think about something for a second. think of all of the ways that you are impacted by stories almost every hour of your day. you wake up in the morning, you turn on the radio or the tv to hear about the stories that happened overnight. you go to work where you communicate most of the time in stories. you want to express your

feelings to somebody, you tell a story. you want to inspire somebody, you tell a story. after you tell all of the stories you read books, watch tv, go to movies and then you sleep at night and dream in stories. stories are always with us. in fact, cognitive neuro siciene tiss believes they're letting us know what fact to let in and what facts to ignore. we should reflect on that for a second. because what it really means is stories are the most powerful force in human affairs. when jachlt jackson early was talking about the way that people have fixed ideas, you grabbed your head to say how deeply it was. it's because of the stories that get told. and it functions -- story

telling functions like it would in any kind of context. that is to say there are characters, there's a not. and so it's the kind of characters that we cast muslims in, both amongst others but also how muslims are cost by others. and i would like to point out right now, as we are seeing all these, you know, with isis and all these news reports and so forth, to reflect on this idea. that some groups, some ethnic groups, regions, when we talk about bad things, we look through the prism of victims. a few weeks ago when we were concerned about the children who were coming from central america, nobody was looking at that situation through the lens of the drug cartels and the terrible things they're doing. we're looking at it through the eyes of the people victimized. but when it comes to muslims, typically we look at those stories through the lens of the

perpetrators. those are the characters that get brought forward as the ones that matter. i saw a headline today written by somebody who was arguing, you know, about what we should do in syria and iraq, et cetera, and the headline was, the most terrible people on earth, referring to isis. the most terrible people on earth. but another headline could have easily said the most victimized people on earth, talking about the people in that same region who have been living under conditions of war and destruction and fear for a long time. but it's how we cast those stories. and of course the plot that we have. and many times the plot doesn't even include muslims. the film that was introduced is a story about a world war ii hero, a woman living in paris, a muslim who fought the nazis,

defied them and died doing so. and the reason this whole idea came to pass to begin with is three years ago i was attending a conference with other film makers. some of you may know this is the 70th anniversary of the d-day invasions. while i was at this conference three years ago there was a lot of discussions of all of these documentary film makers about all of the films they wanted to make about one story or another about world war ii. and not a single person mentioned of course muslims. that didn't surprise me. because i myself had never heard of any story involving muslims in world war ii. in any way. but then a surprising thing happened. a few weeks later both my partner michael wolf and i were screening a film at different ends of the coast and we heard a story told to us about somebody whose relative had been jewish

living in france and who had been saved by a muslim family. and that was shocking to us. after going to this conference and not imagining a story, hearing two back-to-back stories like that. we began to research it and started finding out that oh my goodness, there are literally hundreds of stories about muslims just in paris. al gearian immigrants. hundreds of them died. the paris mosque that sheltered jews during the war. the hospital that hid shotdown u.s. airmen and british airmen and was awarded a medal of honor by president eisenhower after the war. let me ask you this question. what was the largest volunteer group in world war ii? it was the indians. the indians who volunteered and served in the war across all of

the fields of combat. when is the last time you've seen a brown faced person in any movie or any documentary about world war ii. i bet never. >> the one that spike lee did. >> exactly. so the point about it is this. we -- part of it is also the pl plot. and do we include people or do we not include people in story telling. so i would say to you that it isn't so much are the stories reflects the realities. it's how much are our stories shaping the perceptions of reality. that is the thing that we should be asking ourselves. and the answer to that is not very much. not enough. not enough at all. and i'll tell you why i think that is the case.

about six years ago i was at isna and i had a little panel where i was actually making more or less the same talk. and i was getting reldy revved up. i mean i was really hot. i was on fire. i was out there and i was yelling at the audience. i was getting big responses. there was like 300 people. and i was like saying, you know, muslims need to be telling their own stories. and the crowd was going, yes! muslims need to be in the arts, be in the media. we need to share our stories. we need to tell who we are. >> yes. >> encourage all of your children to go into the arts. and that is also a story that we tell ourselves that has great power, and it's story of what's valuable and what's not valuable. a story of do we really encourage the people in our community to be in the arts, to take risks, to maybe make

mistakes at time. but to really start to add the muslim narrative to the larger narrative. and that's the only way that those cultural things in our brain, the notions of who we are and are not are going to change. it is only going to change when we begin to tell our stories in compelling ways, whether it's in film, writing or in song. but we have to encourage that. and again we -- you know, the tweet that came earlier, we have to give space for people to experiment and to try and to expand the narrative. because it is in that expansion that the perceptions of muslims in this culture and the world, only then can begin to change. thank you. [ applause ] >> thank you so much, brother alex.

well up next our panel is someone who is actually involved in producing art and culture for popular consumption, i would presume. brother ali is a highly respected hip hop artist, speaker and actress from minneapolis, minnesota. his résume includes six critically acclaimed albums and performances on late night talk shows. he was can note speaker at this year's nobel peace prize forum. he's currently tackling the topics that are discussed in his speaking engagements and work shops. the lyrics you write and perform are different than the tunes of the modern day mousse limb pop star. they deal with real issues right here at home. but there still seems to be a lack of appreciation for this kind of artistic expression in the muslim community.

tell us what inspires your art and how this art can heal this muslim community and bring them together. [ speaking foreign language ] >> speaking of stories -- well let's start with the question. i think, you're right, that there is a lack of appreciation and a lack of recognition. i'm very outweighed by everybody on this panel. what i bring to the table is my experience. my experience is that across the board and around the world the reality of white so premcy, one of the most evil aspects of it, perhaps the most is that it exists in nonwhite people. it become as dominant narrative

and it becomes part of the overall systems of domination that we face in this last time. we face systems of domination across the board of economic and, you know, cultural and et cetera. one of the main things that we face is the idea that whiteness and everything that comes from white people are the most legitimate, the most precious, the most acceptable, that white people are more valuable and white ways of living and expressing. on the other side of that, that blackness is not important and that it's not legitimate and that it's not valuable and that it's not to be honored and not to be appreciated. this has been my experience as a muslim american. this has been my experience as a european american person raised by black people directly, not, you know, figuratively. and raised by the black muslim community. and raised in a really amazing,

incredibly enriching and wonderfully developing environment. and then set out into the world with everything that i've been given both in my deen and also the way that i express myself in the art that i've been taught. the tools that i've been given to navigate the world as it is. and the second i got outside of that cocoon or that womb, that bore me, which i reference very sincerely, i started to realize the lack of appreciation that is too common to be a coincidence. both in the muslim world and then also in the world of art, that in america and also in muslim america, we have an idea about who is a legitimate american and who is not. who is a legitimate muslim and who is not.

and the closer we are to whiteness, white success, white anything, anything that we have that white people appreciate, we love it and we celebrate and we jump for joy. when we have a white a white pet can express islam in a beautiful way. and we have some that are amazing. when a white scientist proves, we jump for joy, we're overjoid and so happy about this. likewise the people who allah chose to give his religion to first on these shores and the first protectors of al islam in the world were black african people. the king was the first of all of the people to actually stick his neck out and risk his political relationships to guard and protect the early muslims when they were having trouble. and there was a community of islam that existed there. and it was for a short period, but watz reality.

muslims were safe there when they weren't safe in africa among black people. and this particular leader became muslim. and when that leader passed away, he stood and made a -- for him. al also, the voice we hear, the sound that comes out of his mouth. we believe that we're told he was the first one because he had a good voice. but we're also taught that [ i -- he sid who is the footsteps? this means that this voice isn't just the sound that comes in from the throat. but it emanates from a spiritual state and a spiritual reality.

and in america we're starting to get used to the idea that we don't own black people anymore but we still think that we own everything that they create culturally and spiritually and in human terms. and nobody ever in the history of america here expressing their rights as a human being without using the language that was created by the black liberation movement. this is true for the women's right movement. everybody that expresses human rights uses this. and anybody when they're in a space where they have to grapple with their nonwhiteness. and i have noticed this with people who are brown in america and who don't always have to wrestle with this. but when they get in a space post-9/11 and they have to really wrestle with the fact that they're not white, what do they go to for guidance? where domus limbs in america, young muslims in america go to learn how to not be white in

america? they go to hip hop. and they use these expressions and they value them. this is true across the board for everybody. in america, so many of the enslaved africans who were brought to these shores, some were sold but many were stolen. long them were great scholars. the name booker t. washington comes from -- the last name bailey came from an individual who was a great skol lscholar. and these people brought out islam in your movie that you made about it was incredible. and i love the fact that you told that story.

may he award you for that. these stories haven't been told. and without any significant campaign, the first people on these shores to desire islam, to reach for al islam, to really risk their lives and give their lives to establish al islam, the people to whom allah saw fit to give his religion and make yet again the vanguards, the protectors and the guardians were the children of enslaved africa africans, black kaafricans. i don't know how many of us really discuss this, how much of this is really scene. there was a miraculous event that happened where people had been striving to learn islam and know al islam for so long. and when he became the leader of the nation of islam, i think it

was significant that i was this deer born today and this is the largest community of muslims in america, primarily arab and south asian muslims. and why thar they safe to establish al islam here? when we talk about what americans think of al islam, we're not talking about african americans. african americans love and respect islam. even if not all of them want to be a muslim. when you're in the black community and say you're a muslim, if you really live that, you're respected, treated with respect, you're given deference. and dr. zaid tweeted one time, she said i'm in the one place in america where it's safe to be a muslim, in the hood. this is where i got the name brother ali. because my friends were selling drugs. my friends were dying. my friends were selling drugs. i almost lost my virginity to a

crack head. this is the life that we had. and hip hop and al islam saved us, saved our lives. and when i became a muslim and i was scared to live in this reality, my friends are dying, getting shot in the head. and when i wanted to change my life and i didn't know how to do it and i became a muslim, this is how i got the name brother ali. because when i would come around in there playing dice, they put the dice behind their back. don't smoke that weed around brother ali. peace, brother ali. this made the world a safe place. have mercy on him. he was born in detroit, the nation of al islam, the nation of islam was born in detroit. and why were the muslims safe here? this is a chocolate city. this is a black city who is being boycotted now the same way that haiti was because of the black power that they have here. but why was, why was deer born,

why were the muslims safe here? martin luther kink, whose last words, the last words he spoke publicly when he knew he was going to be assassinated. he said i would like to live a long life, long givety has it place but that doesn't matter to me. what did he say? i just want to do god's mr. and then he was murdered. and the bill that allowed for nonwhite immigrants to start coming to america in big number bs with our deer beloved brown -- this was preceded by the civil rights bill. that's what caused this to happen. nonmuslim african americans made america a safe place for islam. when people stand up for civil rights and for human rights in this context, this is the language that we're using. but my experience when i go places is that -- to get back to [ speaking foreign language ] very quickly. they had a notion of allah that

a lot of us don't recognize as being part of our tradition. was just with minister farcon and the way he explained it to me made sense to me. regardless of how we feel about him, i sat with him and he expressed his love and taught for three hours. and he expressed his love and his desire to mo his community to al islam. but as a little kid, when he was very young, related a story where he prayed allah, we're not understanding you properly. please bless us to understand you properly. and after he became the leader of the nation of islam, within one year, within a very short period of time, almost half a million people converted to islamic orthodoxy. this is a miracle in the shores of america. and when we're telling stories and deciding what's in it and what's not, why is this not in our story.

why do your children not know this is the legacy that we inhere inherent? why do we not see this community and not onlyhave? that we can ask to represent all of us, all of that community? how many european american people in person? but my community is the black -- american muslim community. is th is h-- this is how allah wanted it to be. so when we talk about the future, i'm just very torn up at our schizophrenia and our amnesia. it's plain as day to me with just my limited everything that we're missing out on our humanity. this idea of why supremacy and

also he addressed it specifically in his farewell. and in our beautiful scholar, and i love all of them so much, they're masterful at addressing this in time. and be very, very specific about -- what do they call it when you have a disease? diagnosing. now, i bless them for that. but how are we able to have this conversation pertaining to white suprema supremacy isn't part and parcel

of this world. we look at a clock that tells us what time it is in england. and that's how we know what time it is. and then i don't know how to measure -- i just learned how to measure. my wife was there and they told her how to measure for what time sala is. i was looking at an apple on my phone that told me by that calendar what time it is in europe what time salat is. so this is all i want. is that we're missing out on one of the most, if not the most, significant and important realities and wealth of strength and higma and wisdom around wellieism. i know what i feel and i recognize. we're missing out on a field of waleys. we talk about malcolm and thank god, i feel like malcolm gave me

my shahad. he predicted you. malcolm predicted you. he said if european americans would study islamic, they would be cured from being white. he predicted this. but he didn't come out of a vacuum. he didn't descend out of nowhere. there's a community of people who inspired him and who made his life matter. so when he spoke, it wasn't just him speaking. there were men and women on the ground desiring allah and living their lives and ready to die for it. in the hood. in the slum. getting people who were hooked on drugs and puts them in their house and they're peeing and pooping all over the house until they get clean. teaching them that you're a muslim. and this is what made america safe for islams that. 's what struck me.

[ applause ] >> thank you so much, brother ali. so it's great. we have all of these ideas of what's going on with culture. where we want to go with it. but there seems to be a huge disconnect between the generation that's coming up, known as generation y. a lot of those folks haven't known life before the internet. they socialize and interact online. there are lots of self-made face book imams. and then there's this whole new trend now where it, like, someone gets so many followers and all of the sudden, they're an expert. they're an authority and

everybody turns to them. i don't know if i would call it a crisis, but it just seems like there's a huge disconnect and there needs to be some way to resolve it and not ignore it. >> all right. so i'd like to offer a thought on that. i guess it's very interesting because brother ali and i are sort of coming at this from a position of people who are trying to perform, be story tellers, in a way, and we have two scholars in the top five of influential muslims. but i think i would offer this idea and that's the following. we, as muslim community, one of my observations on becoming a muslim was that this was a community that's culture is very focused on scholars and scholarship and getting things right and really doing the rigorous work of that nature.

and that pursuit makes us maybe sometimes afraid of, in essence, what i would call the marketplace of statistic ideas. meaning that there's a social media that's sort of chaotic and people can be experts and have followers, but i think that's actually 5 good thing. in the following way. so these voices, these ideas, really get out there and they compete. and some are hot for a little while, but it's the ones that are saying something truthful that persists. and the ones that are really getting at genuine human emotions that stay. the term that i keep using, begin to expand the narrative. and so i don't think that's a bad thing. i don't think there's a "solution" to it. i think it's actually a very good way that many people in our

community are getting more power to express ideas and express thoughts. and, again, some of those idea wills just disappear because they're not worthy. but those that stay, just like the great works of art over time, have something to offer us all that are important. >> if i could say something, i think one of the pieces that's thought of so much is that we have been analogous, and that may not be the proper term because social movements sometimes aren't developed as sort of the product of a spontaneous, historical moment. we're not overcoming a lot of these issues and questions. so i think, to a certain extent,

we have to be confident that the demands of our day will give birth to the kinds of movements that are necessary to answer some of these questions and to bridge some of these divides. they're bigger than one individual. one individual isn't going to send out the ultimate facebook status or write the perfect article and is going to answer all of the questions. to a certain extent, it's going to be the prod of a movement that brings activists, scholars, lay people together and then, collectively, their collective effort and attempts to live out a particular historical moment is going to provide the answer. so you just need to sit back and be confident. such movements will appear and

they will take us a little further down the road. if they don't answer the question or questions, they'll give us a little insight only what's needed to answer the question and begin to bridge the gap. >> my point is really very brief. i have some reservations about the chaotic sort of dynamic of the internet. you're right. you're not going to shut it down.

i think that for me, it's not so much the chaos. our certain ways of doing things is just the utter lack of civility among muslims on the internet. i mean, you know, it's just so damaging. to the kaz. you can't have constructive conversation where people are just insulting and attacking and disfiguring, dismembering people on the internet. you know? and this is shocking. and i, you know, i don't come from tender background. i can deal with it. but, as a muslim, and i still remember this. and i'll stop because i don't want to go on. but i remember, you know, in graduate school, you know, or

even when i was abroad studying, you know, i'm reading these guys and they're having these knocked down, dragged out debates, you know, in the books. and all they would say is that one of them would say -- i keep saying will you tell me who this person is? and they would never do it. because the person is not the issue. i'm not arguing with that person. i'm dealing with the idea. all right? and they would deal with the idea with such fidelity that, you know, i would be reading this stuff and i'm, like, yeah. yes! yes! and then you get to the end of the page and say this is wrong.

this is our legacy. this is our heritage. we should not be tearing each other down. we should not be misrepresenting each other. and, else sfeshlly, as scholars of people who are leaders in communities, we should be mulled in the civility of our prophet. we have to model civility. incivility is one of our enemies. >> i also sort of -- i feel like we have to be honest about the limits of that space. the internet is not a democratic space. we know about regulations about that neutrality. it really, literally, 1 not a

space that everyone has access to equally and has had access to sort of amplifying their points. so it's not that kind of space. but it is a powerful space for organizing. and so while i agree that sort of, you know, young people say oh, my god, it's a crisis. what are we going to do? when people out of fear and desperation, they don't act intelligently. they don't do the things nay need to do. they are reactive as oppose today being proactive. so i agree why we don't want to be in crisis mode and we understand young muslims as a part of what's going on with young americans or americans more abroad. so we don't want to particularize or single out young muslims as having a particular issue or problem that's particular to them that really isn't just reflective of what's happening in society more broadly. at the same time, we have to recognize that owl of us need people to sort of help us ooert way.

we have to organize and come together. people want to talk about people's scarves, right, but they don't want to talk about white supremacy. and this is my problem, right. i want us to elevate the conversation. and, in order to do that, we have to organize. >> so we received a twitter question about putting muslims at the forefront through professional paid ya. if we put muslims at the forefront, 1 that a wis that a to become more 5:accepted in culture? is that a way to move forward? >> no, ma'am.

>> i think no. and, no, you shouldn't quit your job, either. i think it's about putting muslims 2in less prominent decisions. again, you know, so, for example, we have famous african american women, beyonce, for example, she's huge. she's famous, right? but why is she famous? what makes her famous? what are the types of aesthetics, authorities and principles that come out of a framework that enable beyonce to have her fame. so it doesn really matter that she's famous and of african deacceptability. in fact, if we end uptaking from her presence is a reproduction of inequality. i'm not confident having muslim faces everywhere is the answer. i do agree with expanding

narratives. but i think that also has to happen, like, regular, old people, right? regular people who do regular stuff are the folk that is, in many ways, are sort of a vanguard of that. that's both about telling a story, so to speak, but it's also about being agtictive in communities and community life and responding to people. i think it's about the kind of ethos of sensibility that muslims carry within their everyday lives that is most practical. >> if i could add to that, your point on beyonce is a very good one. in the sense of that, getting back to the issue of story telling, just by the fact that someone happens 20 be prominent wharks tells that story?

it's really about the kinds of stories that people reflect. >> one of the any knowledges that prominent people do bring along with them is the multip plier effect. i think it depends on what kind of story you can tell. when muhammad ali stood on television and said if they want to put me before the firing squad tomorrow, i'm ready to e die. that's what he said. this man's father said to him,

he said, you know, i don't know a lot about what this young man is talking about, but you get very few opportunities to stand up in life and be like a man. and this man is standing up and being likeoó a man. and he said his father had voted for george wallace in the first election. and under the influence of what

dying for. and there are certain any knowledges worth losing it all for. it's not a question of having people in prominence. it's having people in prominence who are willing to give their lives and to lose it all to fw faithful to those higher truths and believes. that's why muhammad ali was so powerful. he was willing to give up his fame, his life, his career, everything to advance a set of principles that could resonate to any decent human being regardless of their race, ethnicity, class, background, et cetera. so if people of prominence can do that, perhaps it can help move the whole conversation, social discourse forward and

create different types of cultural understandings and realities. e. >> so, speaking of prominence, they're not speaking up enough about world events. my question is if we're supposed to be creating this american muslim culture, and we're concerned about being american muslims, do we need to always be on this hyper alert, always reacting when we have a lot of issues here at home that we're not dealing with at all. are we just sit duck sns what should we be doing?

>> on the overall issue, my own attitude that we, as an american muz limit community have to become a lot mr self respecteding. we have to respect our own values, our own issues. we have to insist that we have not only the right but the responsibility to defend our own selves.

but we don't have to report to anybody because we are muslims that honed our ed ourselves bef allah. and we should not have to apologize about that to anyone. i understand where the sense of it comes from, being muslim. i remember we boycotted south africa because of apartheid. i always knew what was happening at pa risz island. and i always knew what was happening in my local community, too. so my perspective, and so i think it's a little bit of a false choice between do we have

to care about everything? yes, we have to care about, literally, everything. we snknow that the u.s. military and personnel and information between the prison industrial complex and the united states, right, are shifting back and forth between the ways in which u.s. power operates elsewhere.

so we care about everything, right? because so i'm wearing this t-shirt, right? blax lives matter, right? and i'm wearing this t-shirt not because black lives only matter in the u.s., right? not guil not because it's a parochial notion of what it means to be an american. it's one that's about human life. there's no choice here as to whether or not i care about someone with the ebola outbreak in west africa. it's not a choice. yes, we care about efg. at least that's my perspective.

>> so i was going to say something after this session was over and i was going to thank all of you for making an earlier point. he was talking about remembering this is about religion and our sole and the after life. not to forget that. when i became a muslim now, so many years ago, politics was the very last thought in my mind. it was a very spiritual experience for me. it was very reloyigious for me. it did something for my heart. i sometimes feel, as i progressed as a muslim over these years, that, increasingly, i'm just engaged in conversations that have to do with issues abroad and political actions and do we put emphasis here or there on what it is. and, very rarely, sometimes, is

the conversation braught back to what our faith is about. whatever is happening here is temporary and we're passing through it. so i think, to some degree, i was so happy you said that and i think it bears repeating because we need to keep that sentiment in mind as we bear all of this in mind. that you want mat that ultimately, islam is about our relationship with god and where we're going. it's also about the earth. and i sometimes think we forget the others.

engage someone in their absence. a lot of times, these are people who are out there during the year dealing with these issues. sometimes, in very trying ways. there's political struggles with their children, as students and the divestment movement. and very difficult and trying ways.

if we cannot have any space that can serve as a refuge with a new spiritual perspective to keep them focused on the big picture, all of those spaces are taken away and every space becomes a space of political contention, controver controversy, stress and strain they think we're going to see the already dangerous temptatio temptations because they can't find any relief amongst the buddhists and the christians. they can't find any spiritual meaning on the context that's been defined as islam. i think we're entering into some very dangerous territory that is unprecedented in the history of this uma. the uma was able to survive the

political disasters. i think we need to be cognizant of those spiritual realities. [ applause ] >> i was listening to what you were saying ashds i'm attorney with what you were saying. everything is not deaf con four

even though the stakes are high. you do what you can. we don't know what's going to happen, but we continue to fiekt. this notion of spiritual refuge, if you don't believe that i'm fully human and if you're my muslim brother, how can i find spiritual refuge with you. and so this question of spaces and the spaces we create is one, i think, about politics, right? and i don't believe in this bifurcation of politics and religion and those sorts of things. but if we do not create the space to head on, feel with these fundamental sort of believes, if we don't create the space to do that, i'm not sure these spaces -- these spaces may

be spiritual rejuvenile nation for some people, but for other people, they're not for. >> i don't think i articulate -- i don't think we're talking about black and white and zero situations generalizing. so when we talk about spiritual refuge, it's not a 100% recharging of your batteries without confronting serious issues. i just think when the politics become so hedgemonic that we can't even begin to envision a place of refuge that's when it becomes extremely dangerous. so i'm not talking about any physical space, any physical,

geographical location, a center, a convention center or anything. just having the idea that there are some spaces where we can come together and discourse issues on politics but approaching them from a different premise. and that premise has to do with something you mentioned in part in that we don't know when relief will come. but we do know that part of dealing with the process of bringing about relief is cut vativat i cultivating a relationship with our leader that leaves no room for despair. a lot of times, we can become so desperate that we will entertain solutions that have no foundation in the religion. so how do we maintain spaces even while we're having those conversations that the at mos fear isn't qualifying by

desperation. the atmosphere isn't qualifying by such an intense urgency to come up with a solution right now that we can't, even while we're having that conversation, let's say that's not bad for a member. and then come back to it. and so, you know, that's -- it's complex and nuanced and i don't think i could even properly articulate it in the time allotted. but i acknowledge what you're saying and it's too real and dangers in going too far in any direction. >> and i just think that, you know, you know, many of us know people who are personally just holding on by a thread.=zk and, you know, that has to be, i think, a priority as well. now, that might not engage our

political energies in the typical way that we're talking about being engaged. now, these are people we've known for years. and i think that has to require some priority amongst us as a community. things are tough out there. things are really tough out there for most citizens. i'm in a university setting and i see youngnv muslims having thr theme challenged on a daily basis. and many of them are in crisis. and what's going on in this particular muslim country or that particular muslim country is, quite frankly, not their priority. they're still trying to figure out whether they want to be muslim or not. and i think there has to be lots of attention, quality attention, directed towards that. and i don't think we need to apologize for that. >> unfortunately, we are out of time and we will have to say good night to you guys. thank you so much to our panelists.

[ applause ] >> i am the only veter ran in this race. i recall my dad saying on this road here, i was a young man, i was a student scholar and i could have kept my student loan deferred for several more years. he said you could take your

student deferment and road scholarship, but if you don't volunteer and serve someone poorer than you may go in your place and that may always bothder you. so i signed up for vietnam. i was very disappointed in that war. i think we need to strike lethally if someone chops off an american's head someplace. we need to strike lethally and quickly. but as henry kissenger said yesterday, have a plan to get out. you strike with high-technology weapons and get out. that is what i would do. i would not have a force that would have to stay there. >> a 60 second rebuttal if you would like? >> yes. it's really unfortunate that mike rounds isn't here to answer this question. these are the kinds of questions you're going to have to give answers to when you get elected to the united states senate. here we are on the verge of

another middle east con flikt. we're talking about at minimum, air strikes galvanizing the international community, you know, bombing the syrian rebels. he's decided to take a 54-day vacation from all of these public debates and forums between now and the 23rd of october. and i really think that's unfortunate. isis is a threat. we need an international solution. but, you know, sending our kids back over there to fight this war is just not something i can support. the first day after lar

day. summer is over, fall is beginning and we are off to a very good start here. we are really thrilled today to come together. >> well, we're going to get started here. we're going to be really thrilled today. a celebration of larry gosten's

work. and this very important major opus on global health law has come out this year. and larry raised the idea a few months ago about having an event. we do different kinds of events. we were honored to do that. he's such a pillar in our community here. he's done so much over the years in leadership at the institute and school medicine and his prolific output. influence over all of us >> he's had so much influence over all of us. and such a constructive, forward-looking, gracious way. but we just thought this was a great occasion. so thank you, larry, for turning to us and letting us pick this up. we're thrilled to be able to do it. we also thought let's try and do this as a conversation around the big questions and big ideas and let's try to bring in some

of larry's kroesest friends and allies over the years who could help in this celebration, in a kind of deliberate, interactive, brisk discussion. larry agreed to that and has been the leader since 1984 of naid and is a really huge presence in our lives in all manners containing global health. we'll be joined in a few minutes by tim abbot as the third party to this. the way we're going to go about doing our business here this afternoon, we're going to run up to 4:30, no later than 4:30. we're going to trail on and see how things go. we're going to open up with larry saying a few words about this work. it's the culmination of many years of effort. it's not just the only large,

comprehensive, definitive enpsych lo paidic, analytic work. he's actually done this over a bunch of other areas over the course of his career. >> the genesis around future-oriented. each of them. very much trying to get us thinking about the future. and the first one is what is the single biggest challenge or problem that we need to keep focused on over the next ten or five years. what will that be and why? we've got an international law expert. we have tony as a person coming

at this from the perspective of someone involved deeply in the science, research, development technologies. tim evans, someone whose life is really centered in the science of delivery in implementing programs and organizing a large, international organization to be effective in that. so we'll just begin with that first question and then we'll morph from there into what do we believe the biggest idea will be over this same period that will spur innovation and change the calculous in this world. so welcome. thank you all for being with us. you have the big ra fills, the short bios on our speakers. i'm not going to go into great detail. larry, tony and tim are all familiar to all of you as close friends and folk that is we call upon constantly.

so larry, congratulations. it's a great occasion. >> it is a great occasion. and i just wanted to start, steve, by thanking you and csis for doing this fl's no place like this in washington and america. you've bimt something incredible. tony is a long, long time friend. there is no book on global health law and global health gover nans. you tend to think of law as an esoteric field. but, in fact, the legal instruments the gover nans, and tobacco.

just think about ebola. but what real bli drew me to this book was the idea of two global health dmartives operating out there. one is what you hear from the really global health. that's a story of global health to where we are now with some incredible achievements. through the development goals to be the sustainable development goals. that's a true narrative.

there's no question about it. but i also have done more civil society, social framework around a convention for global health. so i've talked to people on the ground. and their experience is completely different. it's a different narrative. and theirs is a narrative of deep impoverishment. there's can be seen in west africa today. as steve was saying, food, insecuritity, human rights, violations. ebola and a whole viert of conditions. we really are facing a crisis there. and that's what i hear. it turns out both were right.

you have improvements in global health. but those improvements aren't ek witten across the board. basically, i ask three basic questions and then i'll move on. the first is what would a perfect global health look like? what would it be? and, for that, i really try to place a premium on public health. all of those things make life much more livable. and then the second question is

what would global health with justice look like. and the third is how we would get there. if you do manage to pick up my book from outside, i think the best part of it, and the best advice i got from harvard, they said don't get somebody like bloomberg or bill gates to write your folio. nobody care what is they think. think of something else. and so i did. and what we have in the beginning are global health narratives. they're stories from children around the world in their own words. it's really powerful if i had time, i would read you one. but i think it's really important for us to really capture that idea of what it's like to live in a poor country filled with injury and disease. so thank you very much, steve. and, without further adieu, we can get on to the important part. >> great, thank you. thank you so much.

>> i didn't mention at the outset that we're going to open the discussion up and hear from you. so, please, think about your comments and questions as we move through this dialogue and we'll get to you quickly. i promise. larry, do you want to begin by offering a few minutes of thoughts about the most important problem, simply the most important challenge? >> hi, tim, come on up. >> hey, tim. we're just getting rolling. >> tim evans from the world bank. welcome. >> i think the biggest challenge is equity and challenge. in this kind of tobacco, guru,

list serve, just very, very small. and they argue with one another, the great tobacco zealots in the world. and i don't know how i got part of it, but i was. and they talk about end games with tobacco. end games are very popular. you can see, you know, getting to zero. you can get it with all of these other areas. and, so, i decided to not be different and i sort of asked them an ethical question. i said suppose you can get to the end game in tobacco, which means that you have a preference rate of 25% or less. but we still have mentally ill, the poor, the working class with relatively high rates. would that be ethically acceptable to you? every single zealot is saying yes. their main goal was to help

improve justice. trying to look and make the world a place where it doesn't matter where you were born. it doesn't matter if you were a male or a female or a child or an adult or if you're sick or if you're healthy, disabled or not. what matters is that you have equal opportunity to live in conditions which are happening. one thing that really struck me. i came back what i was doing last chapter of the book from a very typical sub saharah african city. i came back and realized i really wasn't feeling well. my throat was bad from all of the fumes.

my tummy was a little bit bad. i just didn't feel good. and i realized when i came back from any of news lower income countries, i didn't quite feel right. but i think, i mean, oslo, i'm feeling great. that totally sold me that where you live is connected to how you feel. and it's where people live every day of their lives. tony? >> thank you, steve. what i picked out is the single biggest challenge or problem for the next five or ten years is one that is certainly not new or creative, but it is very, very real. and it really has to do a bit with what i am as an infectious disease person in deal iing wit

the december party that is relates to the justice that larry was talking about. but i'm particular ly involved with this right now with what i've been doing over the last couple of months over the ebola arena. i always talk about disparities and health. you talk about malaria, you talk about malnutrition, lack of clean water, all of things that are related to countries that are not resource-rich or put a different way that are limited in resources related to health.

some of you may have heard me in the media say should we be worried about ebola here. someone is going to get on a plane from west africa and wind up in washington or paris or london. they're going to be well on the plane or not, get here, get sick, go into achb emergency room, get sick, maybe die and infect the nurse orr doctor and everybody will realize it's ewola. there would be isolation and then the outbreak would end there. in africa, we're seen an exponential in excess of 3,000 plus with 1500 deaths and the projection of it going to tens of thousands of cases is not hyperbole because the curve is now exponential. and the reason it's happening is

because of the disparity in health care capability. that is the only reason that's happening. you can't have infection control. there's no infrastructure for the contact tracing. so if there were those first two or three case ins the united states, it would be very frightening to everyone. it would be all over the newspapers, but it would stop. just the way the 23, 24 outbreaks prior to the current one stopped. so as i was prepared to give my three minutes of what i think the greatest challenge is, and we'll get to how we can address that challenge, is just that. there would not be ebola epidemic that might devastate countries 23 there weren't absolutely stunning disparities

of health in the west african countries compared to our country. >> this is going to be a bit of a repetitive theme here. let me first apologize for being late. it was first assume today be ebola affecting many of us. i think it is symbolic or indicative of those vast disparities.

it is increasingly shaky with respect to the contain. of ebola and the rest of the continent, therefore, the rest of the world with respect to feel i feeling some sense of it. >> i don't know larry as well as many of you do. but, from a distance, i've always femt he's been just a massive lead er and really practicing what he writes about so easily.

>> i was going to say, having wasted two or three minutes -- or at least spent them on more important things in adding my two cents on this, to me, the biggest challenge is inequality or equity. and it's essentially both between countries and within countries. but i think it's also one that civilizes nations to valuing all lives, no matter where they're based: i think it needs to be much more fundamentally engrained in everything that we do. the challenge of that i think is multifactorial.

>> i would say relative to where we were 20 years ago, there's been a massive globalization in something we call global health or around global health which has multiple manifestations which i think in bodies, to a significant extent, this sense of impatience and intolerance of global inequities in health. and i am personally very encouraged that we're moving. but when we look at the ebola crisis today, it's clear that we

could look an awful lot faster. different from other things and then as we moved into april, may, june and perceptions began to change, there was a, there was a certain confident in the ability at a that time to still use the tools we have. to address this and there was a recognition that there were, that the inequities, the infrastructural gaps were feeding this along with distrust, mobility, speed of transmission that was happening. but inequity was recognized as a fundamental part of this and a huge gap globally in west

africa, but i don't sense that people made the leap from that to say that the enequities of that kind were more than a normative consideration, more than a something to lament as a reality of life versus saying they are a something both normative and ethical in what we face, but it's also something that strikes at national interests and security considerations in a way that would motivate people to see inequities as something that require much more aggressive action and today, when you look at what's happened in this expau nen shl leap is that it's not registered as a security issue. it's not been brought to the u.n. security council. it's, it's competing against some pretty, some pretty formidable other geo political

crises of which there are no fewer than three major ones at work today, so the field is very crowded, but when you all raised these issues of inequities and referenced the ebola crisis in west africa as a poignant and excruciating example to witness in our lifetimes against a backdrop of dramatic gains that have been made in the last years, how do you make the case? how do you make the security case? the national interest case. now. that these inequities are ones that have to be addressed? because that i think we're still struggling today and as this crisis unfolds, we're still struggling to figure out how to make that argument at the higher levels of government. not just ours, but many other governments. larry? >> well, i mean, i think you're very insightful. you've raised a lot of important

questions. undoubtedly, this is a geo strategic security issue. you have a whole region that is destabilized. ebola is first and foremost, a health crisis, but it's also travel's been cut off. food security. employment, the economy, productivity. all of that is down. it's focused on a whole region of the world. there's been international spread. the w.h.o. has already invoked the international health regulations as a public health emergency and yet, w.h.o. as you say has been basically left to itself with the u.s. government and others, but not at that higher u.n. level that i think that we need. so, i think it is clearly a security issue, but i really worry about it.

i think my worst fear is that this could be another haiti. where you, it mobilizes a huge, hasn't yet, but it hopefully it will, a huge humanitarian response, but then when the humanitarian response gets up and leaves, the same conditions on the ground exist. you still have the fragile health systems. you still have enormous deficits in doctors, nurses, midwives. already there are places like sierra leone and guinea, liberia, have something like terms of health workforce, and yet, they've lost a lot of doctors and nurses to ebola. so, what's going to happen when we do contain it? we will eventually.

and then we move on to the next thipg. looking at tim, i mean, this is a development issue as well as a scanning back to the point about security humming you said when will this we recognize as a security issue? soon. it will be recognized soon because if you look at the kurds and projections of mathematical have 3000when you people infected and 1500 die, that is a humanitarian issue compounded by the fact that people who do not have ebola do not go to the hospitals because they are afraid. many people are dying from bleeding ulcers and automobile accidents and the need for care at birth and do not accidents and the need for car'e at birth and they don't are it because they're just not going to the hospital. so that's really compoundinging0

it, but it will become a security issue when you look at the model, go from 3,000 to tens of thousands and governments start collapsing and then, all of a sudden, it's going to be a security problem. i remember back in the, in the mid to early part of the aids epidemic. in fact, it wasn't that early. it was into it when we became pi very clearng that in the development world, particularly sub saharan africa, there es were militaries of different t t countries of strategic interests that had 30 to 35 p% of their people were infected and i with because i went with then secretary of state kocolli powell to the united nations special session on aids and he for the first time, articulated that he considered this a serious security problem.nd and then all of a sudden, everything opened up and people

began to consider that, so, steve, i think it's going to happen and it's going to happen reasonably soon if you'll look at the curbs of where it's going. >> timne is ho >> really, two sets of points. one is how do you make the case and i think that on that front, the weakest link in the chain is one that is a threat to us all globally. and in 2005, when w.h.o. passed the threvision of the l heal international health regulati regulations, all countries were suppose supposed to become ihr compliant by 2012. and anybody who at had any experience in a low income or middle income country after every country signed up to that knew that there wasn't a actua snowball's chancell in a hot ple

for that to actually happen. because the investments weren't being medicine aade and the pro the threat and stimulus, when it disappeared, when sars not disappeared. when h1n1 didn't amount to the crisis people thought it would, that countries did not make vese those basic investments in that core infrastructure. and lo and behold, when you have something like this and you have nowhere near the infrastructure that you need, then you don't have that ability, which is not a complex ability.become to really snuff this out before it becomes essentially indemic o instead of, so you need to the rationale for investment needs to be loostrong, but it has toe beyond the immediate threat and look at the return on investment from investments in health and

here, we've got a just a tons of evidence, larry summers, commission on health came out and showed this is one of the best investments that can be made with respect to you know, economic growth and the economy, so ministers of finance and this is a job for the bank, really need to understand these sorts of investments are not only ones to help people live and survive, but they're ones which make abundant sense in terms of prosperity and economic growth. having said that, in addition to mobilizing as larry said, hopefully the commensurate level of the response and i'd like toe make it clear that we are aboutn 25 to 30% of the mobilization necessary against the w.h.o. u..

road map of 490 million and we have not heard from the u.n. senior coordinator, david nabarro, in terms of what's required above the immediate health response to respond to the crisis, so the price tag will go up and so, there is a long way to go with respect to the immediate response. the challenge is that it needs to happen tomorrow. not in three weeks. and i was listening to the president of msf at the u.n. this morning. and she said we need a search pi force capacity, which is par military in character. and she was saying the biohazard force that many countries have has to be deployed in this espos epidemic if we're going to see . the rate of response necessary g