michael forsythe. former secretary of state to scotland. good to see you. you were making the point, to be fair, when you were fighting elections for westminster, 80% turnouts were not an issue. >> in sterling we would get 83%, but it was a close-run fight and every vote counted. that's true in this referendum campaign. what we've seen since i left politics is the politicians concentrate on the marginal seats, the pollsters tell them to concentrate on specific dividing issues and, of course, the voters think, well, what's the point? so the turnout is low. in this campaign everybody knows that their vote really matters, and the division between yes and no is pretty clear. so it's been very exciting, but there's a phrase from burns, what some power the gift to gives to see ourselves as others see us. we really ought to take a lesson

from those referendum campaign because the one thing that came out on the doorsteps was the utter cynicism there is about politics and politicians and the lack of trust. and that needs to be repaired. and actually this campaign, whichever way the result turns, i think is an opportunity for people to think very carefully about what that means to the organization of our constitution in the future. >> how does a political class rebuild or regain trust? >> well, i think -- i mean, i was against devolution because i thought it would lead to this. but you can't have whatever it's going to be, 46 or 47% of the people in scotland not being satisfied with the present arrangement and not make a radical changes which go well beyond the cobbled together vow. >> we'll pause there, michael. because i think we're going to orkney. >> the scottish independence referendum in the orkney islands

area is 14,907. the turnout is 83.7%. the total number of votes cast in relation to each answer in the referendum question in this area is as follows -- yes, 4,883, no, 10,004. rejected, 20. the reasons for rejection are as follows. one didn't have an official mark, zero voting in favor of both answers, two, writing on which voter could be identified, fivep unmarked void for uncertainty, 13. >> so we have our second result in from orkney. and it's a pretty hefty win for the no campaign there. 10,000 votes to the no campaign. and 4,883 to the yes. and a turnout of 83.7% in orkney. that's our second result.

let's have a look at the figures there. put them on screen for you so that we can have a look at the figures. 4,883 to the yes, just over 10,000 to the no. turnout of just under 84%. and i think that really is -- you were suggesting earlier, sara, that orkney was never going to vote yes. >> orkney was never really in doubt. this is very, very solid liberal democrat territory. in fact it's about the only part of scotland, orkney and shetland that are solid. that's where car michael is the mp. the only two constituency msps left in scotland. the liberal democrats, very interesting, we had an election in 2011 after they went to coalition government in westminster and they did very badly indeed. they lost 12 seats all their mainland constituencies, the only heartlands they have left

are orkney and shetland. really not a surprise. >> your thoughts on that? >> i would agree with that completely. i was up in orkney quite recently opening a shop in the main street, a shop that was seen as a staggering achievement for the fact that there would be a shop in the main street there that would give itself over to the yes campaign. i'm sure that people will be disappointed they didn't get a better result but it won't be a huge surprise. >> we have two results. why don't we have a look, then, just to have a look at our main scotland tally with two results in. 30 to go because we have a total of 32 before we can say that this night is over. and there you have it. so far it's a margin for the noes. but very early. at this stage, nick, i think it's fair to say we're still looking to places like glasgow and edinburgh that will give us the weight of votes to make an

jungment. >> you're talking about 17,000, electorates in glasgow and edinburgh of 9.5 million. these are bigger areas. but that's also because the pattern of voting is changing in scotland. this thought that the west of scotland was the key battleground, traditional labor areas, would be eaten into, well it doesn't look like that's happening in glasgow. the question is whether that's enough. the face of the no campaign, the evidence suggests that it is not enough for them to go. but would you forgive me for picking up, just when you were interrupted by the result there, i heard the former conservative secretary of state to scotland, the former opponent of devoel ugs said that what this referendum meant was many more powers for scotland or i thought he was going to say that. >> it's all coming back to me. >> did you not say that? >> look, the three party leaders

made a promise, which i think they'll find it very difficult to deliver but has to be delivered in the light of this result. that means that there will have to be big changes, certainly english votes for english laws. and that means a huge change in the whole of the constitution. so i think we're going to win tonight. i mean, i think these two votes are -- these two results -- two swallows don't make a summer, but i'm pretty certain that it will be a no result. that opens up a whole range of questions which is probably going to lead us towards more of a federation than people have been prepared to accept because of the england problem. it's going to be driven by england because people in england will want to see a fair distribution of resources and they'll want to see english legislation. we're not talking about local government here. we're talking about legislation. >> i was asking about scotland

because i think you were saying -- you said if -- we don't know yet but if it's as many as 46% of people have voted yes, then scotland would require more powers even as agreed by the three party leader just a week ago. >> when you say it was agreed, as you know, it wasn't agreed. gordon brown issued a timetable but like having a bus timetable where none of the destinations were filled in. we didn't know what the ultimate result would be. i don't think that that is actually going -- if you take the most radical case, which is the conservative case, i don't think that's going to satisfy people in scotland and equally, if you're going to go further, then you are going to have to make important changes to the way in which westerners still works, particularly those mps representing english constituencies. and the idea that you can keep barnett, which gordon brown described as being based on needs, that is wrong. what we need to do is have a funding system which is based on need in the same way as the

distribution of resources by the scottish parliament is based on need. so there's a whole range of things that need to be sorted out here in order to make sure we don't end up in this position again. >> so are you saying you don't think that the westminster parties will be able to deliver this to the timetable that they agreed, that they all signed their solemn vow this would be done in nine months time? >> when you say, sara, this will be done, they haven't agreed on this. >> which would make it easy. but the one thing they have agreed on is the timetable. they signed up to doing this quickly, make sure it can't be kicked into the long grass. >> have they actually signed up to it? there's a lot of doubt as to whether the three leaders have actually signed that. gordon brown has made a big push for it. do you think the three leaders have sign it? >> actually, they cobbled something together because they got a bit of a fright by the polls. let's be honest about that. but whatever they thought they were signing up to, the reality is based on this campaign we've

had here, that has to be important and radical change which i think -- and i'm an anti-devolutionist, i think we'll have to go beyond what was being suggested. our leader in scotland bruce davidson described it as being a pocket money parliament. the argument that scared me to death on the doorsteps used by the yes campaign was, look, we should be able to make our own decisions in scotland. that has gone too far now. just as we predicted it would if you set up a scottish parliament. but you then have to look onner to side of this as to what happens in england, wales and northern ireland. you can't say we'll keep barnett when wales is so badly short changed but you have to have some kind of transitional arrangement. how you can do all of this before the general election which is effect ibly about three months of parliamentary, you cannot tear up the british constitution, put something in

its place and do it all because these party leaders decided to put out a press release. somehow we have to persuade the people of scotland that we're serious about giving them real powers, but it has to be in a proper manner that's fair to the other parts of the united kingdom if we're to preserve the union which all of us on the side of the no campaign were determined to achieve. >> what a lot of this campaign has been about is about mistrust of westminster parliamentary leaders. that's the real sense that we've got is that the people of scotland no longer trust westminster to take care of their best interests. if we promise them new powers and then don't deliver it, that will be consequential. >> i accept that. but i think that -- i suppose you could cobble together english votes on english matters because that doesn't require legislation. but i don't actually think that giving this scottish parliament a slice of income tax revenue will enable it to operate effectively. and i don't thing that people in

england will accept the idea that barnett, which is not based on need is fair. it's not fair to wales, it's not fair to the northeast of england. the one thing that we have to learn from all of this is that we need a stable and long-term arrangement. >> pause for a second. we're going to go to the better together campaign headquarters because dr. john reed is their, former home secretary. john, thanks for joining us. what is your sense of how things are going? >> well, it's obviously gratifying, hugh, to get the first two results under our belt and by fairly significant margins, but that's two out of 32. it does wonders for the morale of the troops here but in the very nature of these things, there will be ups and downs. i'm sure there will be one up to creating the euphoria here creating despair. it will be a few hours before we know the pattern. but having said that, it's good

to see the first two which have come out are under our belt. >> what was your sense of the momentum of the campaign in the last, let's say, four or five days? >> well, i think in the last few days, there has been a sort of pushback on the advance that yes made. what happened here was as long as we were talking about the arguments of our separate state, the yes campaign was losing. so they then dive into it on to all six of the policy issues and marshal the support on top of the nationalist vote on people who were against anything, against the tories, against the english, against the bedroom tax and so on. i think that worked for a while, but i think the last week or so we pushed back on it. now i'm sure that there will be ups and downs throughout the country. there will be close votes.

some we'll lose, some we'll win. i'm not making any predictions, but i felt from the beginning of this is the best thing is to rely on the common sense of the scottish people. there's been a huge registrat n registration, a high turnout. and i look forward to seeing that decision in a few hours' time. >> how do you think ed miliband has performed in the campaign. do you think he's done well? >> i think all of the party leaders have done well. they've been at disadvantage, of course, because the yes campaign is plainly had an element of it that was anti-westminster, anti-english and they all come from that background. but they all have a responsibility because they're all committed to the united kingdom. i think the significant thing is that the -- and a very nice fashion indicated how much the rest of the uk wanted scotland to continue its partnership. but the basic fight for votes here was among scotsmen and women and that's the way it should be. we have to make our decision about whether we wish to

remain -- to be a member of the club. after that, if we decide, as i hope the scottish people will this morning, that we want to be a member of the club, we can then talk about the rule of the club. >> you know that there's been quite a lot of criticism even from within labor about the quality of the campaign as and the role played by scottish labor in particular. do you think any of that criticism is valid? >> i think people fail to underestimate the difficulties of putting together what is the largest and widest peacetime coalition in the history of this country. there has never been in peacetime been a campaign that has attempted to bring together the three major parties and then all disparate elements and we'll get together. and of course there was a separate campaign for all of the three parties as well. don't underestimate the difficulties doing that.

alex simon controlled the scottish government, the scottish civil service, the scottish administration, handout of grants. he okayed the planning commission. he dealt with the universities. and the companies who wanted the ben if sense of the scottish administration. so in a sense, his organization was very easy. it could be a one or two-manned band whereas we have to bring together a range of political opinions, some of whom didn't agree on a whole range of issues but all of whom agreed on one thing, which was the utility and benefits for scotland and part of the united kingdom. i hope tonight that range will be joined by a majority of the people in scotland. >> was it a mistake not to have gordon brown as a far more prominent campaigner for you earlier on? >> no, i don't think so. because you see there are definite stages to this campaign. given that we had to put together the widest range of unity among various parties,

then the man that was chosen to do it was a man known not to be a tribal politician, alistair dowling. probably at the time he went into this, the one member of the last four years of the labor government who had come out with credit. and alistair dowling was to work with every side. he's a formidable force but i don't thing anyone would ever regard him as other than an exponent of the family of labor. and therefore it was right that alistair did that. but he was backed up by a lot of people, jim muffy, douglas alexander, frank roy who was doing the organization behind the scenes and all of these labor stalwarts were prepared to work with the other parties because this issue is bigger than anything. and we've done it before on the steel industry and other issues in scotland, and it's right that people expect that you put your petty and personal differences aside. but at the end of the day it's a

very difficult thing to do and much more difficult than the task that alex simon had. towards the end of the campaign gordon brown, douglas, myself and others came in because it was our base that there were questions being asked by some of the labor supporters. some were voting for separatism, the same way that a lot of the sm supporters were voting for unity. at that stage made a profound contribution. >> thanks very much for joining us from the better together headquarters. i'm just about to make contact, i think, with the yes campaign headquarters in glasgow and our reporter ken mcdonald is there with a guest. what's the atmosphere like and tell us more about what they're saying there? >> the joint has been jumping here. not an official yes party because there aren't really any official yes parties. such as the nature of the campaign.

it's been grass roots, bottom up now for more than two years. and there have been various movements a i cross the country. we have asians for yes, eef had architects for yes. but if you like the creative industries for yes, this is a beautiful old office building in the merchant city in glasgow and we're at the head quart overs freight books. when i spoke to you a couple of days ago, you were very confident it would be a yes vote. given what you've seen from clackmannanshire particularly are you still confident? >> yes. unlike a numbers game it's not like constituency after constituency. it's every single vote. the really exciting thing about the referendum, ultimately about the will of the whole people rather than segmenting it up like a chocolate orange. so from that point of view, it's clearly disappointing not to win everything, but we know that it's going to be close anyway.

these are very, very small areas that have declared so far. an area like glasgow is going to trump all of those and many more. so i think we just have to wait. it's a marathon, not a sprint. >> you've got a great host tonight. i'm sorry you didn't join us earlier. we've had stand-up, we've had singer/songwriters, the poet laureate jim carruth was spoking and giving us some of his tremendous verse. why do you think the creative industries of scotland, it locks like 99% behind the yes campaign? >> i think creative professionals as part of their raison d'etre ra look ahead. they look to the future. there has to be some kind of hope, some kind of optimism there for work to really resonate whether it be art, whether it be sculpture, whether it be prose or poetry. so i think from that point of view we as an industry and as a

profession want to believe that scotland can be a better place, that we can take it to a place where people's lives are better and it's a more equal society. and we're natural optimists. >> i was saying just a moment ago that this is a wonderful office building. but actually part of the merchant city that tobacco launch worked here. this is virginia street. and it is a building that was built when the union was still fairly young. do you think it's going to see the union out? >> i certainly hope so. well, i hope that the union will end tonight, personally. i think that scotland is more than capable of looking after itself. an old boss of mine vicky featherstone who was the artistic director and chief executor for the national theater a few days ago on news night said that if she'd still been living here would have been

voting yes because she felt that scotland had become infantlized. whilst as a scot through and through that hurt, at the same time she's absolutely right. it's incredibly important that scotland really takes responsibility for itself, stops blaming other people for its woes and ills and looks forward to the future, takes control. we can do it ourselves, of course, we can. we publish a lot of international writers. one slovenian writer -- slovenia went through this process 20 years ago. something that he said was that the biggest benefit that slovenia had had since becoming independent in 1991 was that it couldn't blame anybody else for their problems any more. it's so important that scotland grows up as a nation and starts to believe that it can control its own affairs. >> do you think possibly this campaign is a bridge too far?

there was a very much an idea that perhaps we were a third of the population were thrilled at the idea of independence but actually it was a question of trying to pull people up to the 50% and maybe you just haven't quite made it? >> i don't think that's the case at all. i'm still extremely confident that over the course of the night we'll see a yes vote. >> this probably will be scotland's longest night. so as correspondents always say, we'll just have to wait and see. >> ken, thank you very much. thanks to your guest, too. and well, that's a very useful note for us. realistic note. wait for the votes to be counted. there we are better together. there's jim murphy, the labor mp who has been a prominent campaigner for better together arriving at the headquarters just a short while ago. this is in the past three minutes. you have to say at this stage the images we've seen from there

they look pretty happy. they've been applauding and celebrating the two results in. jim murphy himself is on social media saying it looks like a very big win for no in our local authority east renfrewshire. maybe we'll have a talk with jim in a moment. let's look at the key councils to come, the key local authority area, the results in the local authority areas in this referendum. >> thank you very much. looking at these 32 councils and where the red dots are progressing, they're thinking. orkney can't set too much store by that. only half a percent of the entire voter population. clackmannanshire. renfrewshire which we gather are coming in sooner rather than

later. if i give you a reordering of these councils according to birthplace, in other words, the number of people in these council areas who were born in scotland, that's an indicator that tends to correlate with the desire for independence. in these areas where it's deepest purple, that's where most people are born in scotland and stayed. they would be most inclined to want independence. we see renfrewshire is on the end of this box. the deeper purple and it fades and it fades. there are many fewer people born in scotland at the other end. let's say with inverclyde and renfrewshire. so come with me, if you can have a look here. you see inverclyde there on the western side. i'll make it flash. near to glasgow, the mouth of the clyde. if you look at the people born

in inverclyde, take a look at the graph here. a disproportionate number of residents in inverclyde, so that's 93% on the purple column and the blue column which is scottish archl, 83%. then very low down here people from inverclyde that are from other parts of the uk. so very low immigration in inverclyde. so again that tends to correlate with the desire for independence, which is why we'll watch it very closely. we'll do the same with renfrewshire. it's very close to inverclyde. have a look at the map. i'll make it flash for you so you can see. both in the area of glasgow, around glasgow. both with lots of socially deprived areas. that tends to correlate with the desire for independence. again you're starting to think maybe renfrewshire as well is going to vote, would have been expected before the evening began to vote yes, but let's

see. here's renfrewshire people born in scotland, one out of ten compared to the scottish average of 93%. worry looking for indicators, clues to get the characteristics of these council areas. here we have just like inverclyde, renfrewshire not many people born outside the uk have come the live. so renfrewshire and inverclyde have the characteristics of council areas that have been expected to go yes. and having seen what's happening in clackmannanshire and the better together campaign talking about lord reid about what is expected to happen, very interesting indeed, hugh. >> indeed, jeremy, thank you very much. jeremy vine there with the latest on the seats to come, i say seats. on the areas to come. areas to declare. let's have a look at the count going on in sterling, for

example. sterling in north of the central part of scotland which michael forsythe has an interest in given his past. >> sterling will be a very, vrs interesting one because by all predictions that's somewhere in the middle where we expect the vote to go. much closer to a ind could of bellwether than we've seen so far. a fairly prosperous middle class area. it used to vote for a tory mp in michael forsythe. possibly we would expect it to be tending slightly toward no, but probably pretty much in the middle of the prediction. very interesting when it comes in. >> that's the count going on in sterling. when sara was just speaking john was giving us some guidance on turnout. given the results so far the overall turnout looks as though around 84% says john. could have just a little more, but around 84%. if it's correct, he says, a record high turnout in a nationwide vote in scotland.

previous record was 81% in 1951. leslie, i thought at one stage you were going to run up to the screen when jahn reid wohn rooi speaking and do something rather vigorous. what did he say that so offended you? >> first, the suggestion that the yes campaigners or the scots are in some way anti-english. let's focus on westminster. it's obvious we're here with such a razor close result because lots of scots have got to the stage where they do not want the agenda that they feel is coming from westminster. they haven't voted for it for decades. so the questions about the food banks, the kind of society we've become, that is a core part of this debate. and it's nothing to do with english people. it's to do with a difficulty about getting a democratic response to how people vote in this country. the second thing was that it's not just ourselves but the last opinion poll, in fact the 51%

opinion poll suggested that 60% of voters thought the no campaign was unduly negative. 60% thought the yes campaign was positive. now, that's not just a spin from us. that's actually the voters' own perceptions of those campaigns. the final thing was this one-man band lark about alex simon. he's the minister and the leader of the campaign. it's herded a bunch of cats into some sort of shape in the sense that there's a radical independence campaign, there's the national collective, women for independence, there's business for scotland. there is many separate movements within now the wider yes movement. and it just makes me sad that we have to keep this pretense up, that the whole of the yes campaign is simply one smp led campaign led by one man as if nicholas sturgeon, for example, who pulls regularly higher

ratings than alex who in turn pulls higher ratings than gordon brown and millibrand put together just doesn't reflect the reality in which the esteem these guys are held and the wide movement that's developed around yes, which is why we're sitting here today. >> michael? >> i really don't think there's any point in refighting the campaign now. i think what we should be doing is looking paurd. we'll get the result in a few hours time. and we should look forward to what we're going to do to address some of the issues that were expressed on both sides and, as i said before, some of the things which are south of the border. i have to say that to criticize the no campaign for being negative, by definition, if you're wanting people to vote no, that's a negative thing to do. and that arose because alex simon was allowed to choose the question. so instead of do you wish to remain part of the united kingdom, we have a question, which is do you want -- so given what david cameron did, which

was to allow alex simon to choose the timing of the campaign, the question and the franchise, every conceivable advantage was given to the nationalists, to the yes campaign. and as it looks likely, there is an overwhelming rejection of that on a big turnout in scotland, then hopefully we can bury forever the idea of independence. >> probably too early to say that yet, michael, isn't it? >> i'm just saying if that is the result, then we can bury that forever and concentrate on finding a constitutional solution to the issues. >> michael, you just said it yourself. you said earlier that if there is a no vote, then there will be dynamics within british society that will be hard to beat certainly within the time scale and probably at all. now, that in turn sets up more dynamics in scottp did land of dissatisfaction. and here's the thing, there's a westminster election coming up

shortly. we're in it, too, if we're still part of the union. and probable that that dissatisfaction will result in a very strong slate of smps being sent to westminster. so it goes on. i don't know that this genie goes back in the box very easily. >> oh, dear, well, i'm taking my lead from alex simon who said if the no won, that that would be it for a generation. i take him at his word. >> heres a the other tremendous thing about this campaign. it's actually people deciding what they want in this country now. it's suggestioning being put forth by politicians but this is all about people power. it may well be that if the people are dissatisfied with not seeing proper devolution and an increase in powers by the timetable that was outlined, the people may decide they want some we of demonstrating that. >> there are a series of non-comes that happened.

this is the definitive rejection, if that's what it turns out to be, of independence, but if the english now demand for mpowers they may cause them to thing we need a response to that. a process has gun rather than ended today. regardless of the result. and that wasn't the point. the very point of this refuse ren dumb from unionist parties -- and remember you used to taught alex simmen that he was too frightened to hold it. he didn't dare name the date. the idea was to bury constitutional change once and for all not just in scotland but throughout the uk. the reverse will be the case. >> this is a process that began in 1997. all three westminster parties went into this with some plans for further devolution. nobody thought this would kill stone dead in the famous phrase, any constitutional change. this is an evolving process. it's being decided tonight how

quickly it moves. >> let's pause. michael and leslie, thank you for joining us. i think we're going to give aw rest. time for us to catch up with a new summary. >> hello. i'm carol walker with a summary of the main news. the first results in scotland's independence referendum have been declared. orkney and clackmannanshire have voted no, it was 46% voting yes. turnout has been exceptionally high. 32 local authorities will declare results overnight with a final result expected between 6:00 and 7:00 this morning. our political correspondent chris mason reports. >> ladies and gentlemen, can i have your attention please? we're now ready to declare. >> just after half past 1:00 in the morning, the first result. >> yes, 16,350.

no, 19 -- [ cheers ] >> half an hour later and 300 miles north it was orkney's turn. >> yes, 4,883. no, 10,004. >> so two results, two victories for the no campaign and cheers at their headquarters. >> it does wonders for the morale of the troops here, but in the very nature of these things there will be ups and downs. i'm sure there will be one or two that rather than creating euphoria here will create a bit of despair. >> this is what scottish democracy looks like tonight, ballot boxes arriving by air from the isle of mull. the turnout has been huge. those arguing for independence say that's because people are angry. >> i think people in scotland

have been channeling that legitimate anger about a broken political and economic system into something positive during this campaign. if it's a yes vote, then we clearly have a path forward for that. defining a written constitution. managing a transition to an independent country. if it's a no vote it becomes much more challenging but still vital to capture that energy and make sure we can build alliances with people elsewhere on these islands who share the anger. >> you need a head for numbers and strong fingers for a night in one of the 32 count center ace cross scotland. the nocturnal arithmetic continues and will do for several hours yet. >> a new video has been released which appears to show a british journalist being held captive by extremist. he was captured while working as a newspaper journalist in the latest footage, he is seen sitting behind a desk dressed in

orange clothes delivering a scripted speech into the camera. the united states senate has approve president obama's plan to arm and train moderate syrian rebels to fight islamic state militants. part of washington's campaign against the group which has taken control of the swath of territory across syria and iraq. president obama also welcomed the senate's vote and praised france for its decision to join air strikes against islamic state in iraq. detectives in london investigating the disappearance of alice gross have named a latvian builder as the prime suspect. police say he had served a prison sentence in latvia for murdering his wife. he went missing a week after 14-year-old alice disappeared late august. the school girl was last seen on the tow path that he used to get to work. the high court will decide if it allows a challenge to

rules used last year which determined if victims of domestic abuse receive legal aid in divorce and child contact cases. that's it for now. now back to "scotland decides." >> welcome back to the referendum results studio. in the next half hour we hope to be hearing from michael gulve and labor's jim murphy will be joining us and ricky ross. in the meantime -- >> you might westminster would be happy with the results so far but we just had thunder and lightning over the houses of parliament. you can make of that what you wish. i'm joined by silen jenkins and aaron jones. if it is a no vote, scotland will expect the westminster parties to deliver on home rule,

whatever that means. if it does, what are the conditio consequences for the rest of uk? >> everyone is saying it will change life as it's never been before. i honestly think if there's a no vote westminster will declare victory and shut up. they'll give the scots the minimum of what they want. they'll be housed by the barnett formula, there will be complaints by wales so that will have to be sorted out. england will be ignored. the kick in the teeth of the establishments which is was supposed to be and i believe it is, it won't happen. >> i think that's completely fantastical. if it is indeed a no tomorrow, they have the potential to not just actually release the constitutional revolution in scotland, right across the entire country. because what we've effect lively seen is a scottish insurgency against westminster rule and the attempt to dampen that with a

whole lot of promises. >> made on the hoof. >> made on the hoof. but that has the potential to not just rewrite the relationship with scotland but also englan and wales. i think that will be welcomed for many people. it's not just confined to scotland. it's in england annuallies, as well. we need a constitutional convention and build a new -- >> that's what i want, too. >> well, let's be optimistic about this. >> i'm right with you on that. i'm actually being a realist. >> let me suggest to you where you may be wrong. there's a head of steam building up on labor and conservative back benches that there is home rule for scotland, there has to be something in it for england. the tory-back eed ventures will not let mr. cameron give scotland home rule without something for england. >> we don't know what home rule means. >> what about the part about england?

>> what do about england, the whole point of living in parliament for england if there's a parliament for scotland, we've been through that a long time. there is no parliament for england. it's as always a dead letter. i passionately believe in it. it's a tragedy for england na the union stood in place. >> let me ask you this. if this issue of the question is answered with english votes only for english laws where does that leave labor? should labor support that? >> i think that would provoke a constitutional crisis because if labor win a majority they put a prospective to all the english people and then they're able to -- >> what happens if they don't win in england? >> the way around that is to have a constitutional convention which devolves power to regions. >> they tried that. they didn't win in the regions. they had a referendum. >> things have changed. that's why this is a key point. >> there's no evidence -- >> what was rejected in the northeast of england was

basically glorified kwango with boundaries, which people swept away. the need to rebalance the british constitution will fuel a sense of -- >> final minute, simon, is it conceivable that westminster can give scotland major tax-raising powers and the barnett formula, because that's what they promised them? >> i think the barnett formula is dead. that's the one thing tory mps will fight. that's a limited point. westminster doesn't change unless it has to. i doesn't have to change right now. i wish it would. it just ain't gonna happen now. >> scotland's on course for independence in the next generation anyway because the status quo remains. because the only demographic are the over 65. so if this is a setup to maintain itself, then there will have to be radical change. in order to assuage greeievance

there has to be a scottish sector. >> i hope you're right. >> let's go back to "scotland decides." >> now, i think we have a result in. let's go straight to the result in shetland. >> for yes, 5,669. for no, 9,951. there were 15 rejected ballot papers. that concludes the counting of votes for shetland island's council area. thank you very much.

>> so we have the result in from shetland. and there you can see the vote, 5,669 for the yes campaign, a no win in shetland, as we'd expected 9,951. a turnout of 84%. let's have a look at the percentages. 64% to the no campaign. and 36% to the yes campaign. so that's pretty hefty margin. and sarah, you were saying earlier that in terms of orkney and shetland we were looking at results in this kind of area. >> not a surprise. are have, very solid liberal democrat territory where the secretary of state for scotland lived in, alistair car michael has his seat. the leader of the liberal democrats in the scottish parliament until he resigned after that disastrous result in 2011 there. shetland along with orkney one of the few places that have kept

the faith with the liberal democrats. voting them a hefty no vote there. >> your thoughts on that? >> no surprise. it's a reminder, isn't it, when we talk about a debate or referendum on whether scotland should separate from the united kingdom, there are parts of the highlands and islands who feel that edinburgh is completely remote and the road from hol hollyrood. >> and coming from alistair carmichael himself that if the rest of scotland were to vote yes, then the breakaway might want a say in whether they stayed with the uk. >> jim murphy is with us and the musician and broadcaster ricky ross. >> good to be here. >> a short while ago. we saw the no campaign. there you go. >> oh. >> that body language. >> and i don't even drink.

i'm not sure the lady in question did either. >> what's your sense of it now then? >> everyone delighted by the turnout. really over 90% turnout. i think it's great that the 16 and 17-year-olds have voted in such numbers and in such a mature way. whichever way they voted didn't matter. and the fact that perhaps time still allows to change the rules for the next house of commons election next year. people would say 16, 17-year-olds, what do they know? they have no life experience, no judgment. this blows that out of the water. they've been so engaged, so switched on. you can see that as you go around the country. let's give 16 and 17-year-olds the vote for the jej election. otherwise you'll have 16-year-old scots who voted today in the biggest decision that's ever been taken to have to sit out and watch next year's uk election and watch it on tel

telly. that doesn't seem sensible. >> that's a point. are you on course for victory tonight? >> i think so. it's too early to say. but i think a decent degree of optimism. i was talking to ricky about the results. we could blow the whistle now. there's a degree of confidence. but until we get some of the big results out of the bigger 32 and other places, too early to say. >> what's your sense of what's going on in glasgow? >> glasgow's very close, my home city. i'd love us to win it. a huge effort into it. i'm not going to try to read off all the arguments. but we haven't given up on winning glasgow this evening. but at the moment too close to call. >> ricky, what are your thoughts? >> jim and i are going to have a big agreement on all that stuff about young people because that has been an energizing part of the campaign. i've been playerly pleased. i was asked about it on television last week down on england on a show.

i'm delighted. i think young people are at the brunt of an awful lot of bad decisions. my sense as a musician is it's much more difficult to be a young musician than when we started out. things are a lot more difficult. they're at the very sharp end of poll sis icies on employment an housing. for them, i think jim's right. for them to go through the next election would seem absurd. on the other question of the -- of how things are, it's very early in the night. this has been a two-year campaign. let's not concertina the end. let's let it take its course. >> that's a very good point. 29 results to come in. we'll two to westminster and i'll get your response to this contributor, too, and i'm sure nick and sara will have something to say to mr. gulbis. you're sense of it so far? >> i've just been listening to

what ricky ross and jim murphy have been saying. i agree with jim. i think that the first indications are podztive for those of us who want to keep the united kingdom together, but too early to say anything definitively. >> too early to say anything definitive, but if it does proceed in a direction that you would find appealing, michael, what does that mean? what needs to happen in way of change in the way that the united kingdom is structured and governed? >> it's been clear all three uk party leaders have said that after a no vote things will change in scotland, that the scottish parliament have will enhanced powers and all three parties have spelled out even before this intense stage of the campaign started different overlapping ideas about how scotland could have its parliament enhanced and how scottish people could feel that their voices were heard more clearly. of course there needs to be a balance there as well. if we can secure enhanced

devolution for scotland in short order we need with a similar sense of urgency to make sure that other people within the united kingdom and in england have their westminister needs to change. that's one of the messages of this campaign and of politics years. i think there's a willingness on the part of the miaprime minist and the government tok ensure that can happen. >> how will you deal with colleagues of yours in the conservative party who don't think it's going in the right direction? >> i think that the overwhelming majority of people in england wanted scotland to stay. i know that all the my colleagues in the party wanted the united kingdom to stay. if fingers crossed it is a no vote, then people will be delighted that our country has stayed together. in terms of urgency, we know

gordon brown has built a timetable that had been agreed with all three u.k. party leaders to ensure that by the time of the next general election people knew what a new scotland would look like. we need a clear view bringing in people from all parties and those who don't have -- people from civil society to inform a conversation about how we can change things in westminister. the conservative party has outlined a position which has a lot of support, not just within conservative circles, which is that if decisions are taken which affect only the people of england, then we need more clearly to respect the wishes of folk in those particular countries. >> nick is here, too. >> what was called in the slogan english votes for english laws would be implemented despite the fact that you have had a new

manifesto for four years and it has not been implemented? >> everyone recognizes that during the course of the campaign the need for westminister to change has been articulated. if we're going to have changes to the scottish parliament put forward by all democrats, then that does mean change at westminister and their relationship with the rest of the country. we have been clear in the past about some of the types of chain we have wanted. it's been interesting to hear nick acknowledge that things have to change as well. and, of course, we want to have the broadest possible consensus for the nature of the change. at the heart of any change has to be a recognition that in the same way as scotland feels quite rightly that there are proper matters that a scottish parliament should reserve to itself and can be decided with a majority in the parliament, so there are certain issues which quite rightly the people of

england and northern island will want to see in a way which respects their views. >> jim murphy here in the studio would not be allowed to vote on schools, would not be allowed to vote on health, would not be allowed to vote some of your colleagues think on certain budgetary parts. >> with your brilliance and acuity, you are several steps ahead of where we need to be. the first thing is we don't know what the result is. the second thing to say is that by definition, if you are going to change the constitution, you want to do so with the maximum level of support. a lot of thought has been given to this. the prime minister will say later today provided there's a no vote about the direction of this. i think it's important not to get ahead of ourselves and not to say this is the precise model. it's important to have broad principals there. the broad principal is -- this is widely accepted across

england, that there are some issues which for northern island, welsh and english voters needs to respect the majority opinion in those parts of the united kingdom. >> will that take us along this path? do you think it will add more to the rather vague details that we have had so far? >> yes. i think the prime minister will be very clear about the direction of travel that he wants to lead the government in. again, i have to stress -- even though it may seem boring. it's critical we don't pre-empt the people that the scottish people are going to take which is revealed throughout the rest of this morning. if as seems likely there is a no vote, then the prime minister will say more not just about the need to make sure that the interests of scotland are protected but also how we bring the united kingdom together and what that means for northern

island, wales and england. >> that timetable we spoke about of the matter of months can deliver what, if anything? >> gordon brown outlined a timetable which involves publishing a command paper that sets out some principals and detail, then having draft kla clauses in the new year. and then at the time of the general election a clear proposal that would be implemented after the united kingdom agageneral election. we need a similar sense of urgency to assure that at the same time we would choose to legislate after the general election for scotland, we would make sure change safeguarded the interests of people in england, wales and northern island? >> could it be an english parliament as the liberal democrats would want? >> i don't think we want to go down the route of an english

parliament as has been understood. it's always the case you want to look at how you can improve local government in cities and elsewhere. but the critical thing i think is there needs to be change to ensure that westminister works better for the people. >> very good of you to join us early in the morning. thanks very much. we will look forward to seeing what mr. cameron has to say later. >> thank you. >> the government chief whip joining us. let me show you what's going on. we are expecting a declaration pretty soon. again, this is an area where given the snp's long tradition, certainly at westminister and in hollyroot is the yes campaign should do extremely well there. we will see. we are expecting a declaration

there quite soon, within the next ten minutes or so. >> that may be the first area that votes yes, what we would expect to happen. listening to michael, i would like to pick something up if i may. he's talking about the plans for further deevolution. the conservative party are offering more powers to the scottish party. you are going to have to get together on this and come up with some agreed plan. is the labor party going to move on that? will you give more tax powers to the scottish parliament. >> let's see if we're in the united kingdom by the morning. >> you must be thinking ahead -- >> you give me too much credit that i didn't think i had. if we're still in the u.k. this time tomorrow, then, of course, the labor party are going to have to get together and a better give and take as we said we would to the parties is going to have to compromise to put

together an ambitious package. i can't announce -- we don't know the result. we haven't got into the detail. we are going to get working tomorrow and putting that together. >> the labor party are prepared to compromise, offer more powers to the scottish parliament than preef previously outlined. >> we all three of us can't put together an original offer. i think there will be give and take. the detail is for other colleagues in the scottish parliament and myself to work through. >> michael made clear that he wants a form of english votes for english laws. that means jim murphy representative of scottish, douglas alexander, other names, would be barred from voting on a series of things that came. there would be two classes of members of parliament, something labor always resisted in the past. >> first of all, i want to be certain that we're going to the house of commons at all. see if that happens. i'm not a fan of this idea of

two classes of members of parliament. michael spoke about it in vogue terms. on that basis, you would get to a point where london can't vote because of certain things. michael was silent on that. i'm not sure the london is being consulted. we have a patch work unwritten mash of a constitution that's evolved over time. it will continue to evolve. i don't think the decision in scotland can go without a response in the rest of the united kingdom. that is clear. my own preference -- this is for people to decide. my preference is a form of deinvold devolved power. >> jim used a lovely scottish word. it's a great word. you used it correctly. we don't have one.

we were about to have a vote where we would get a very clearcut answer. >> i'm going to stop you. >> i will come back to it. >> a referendum. [ speaking foreign language ] >> i should pick up some of this. i'm going to struggle. >> we're going to leave this coverage. watch the bbc's reporting of the vote results on our companion network, c-span. next. the president of interest interest university talking about the impact of public policy on universities. then the islamic society of

north america's discussion of muslim american culture and community. and later treasury secretary on the business tax code. we continue with our series on the impact that public policy issues have on higher education and the role of the big 10 conference. from "washington journal" this is 45 minutes. this week we continue our month long series of interviewed with university presidents. it's in conjunction with the big 10 college tour. this morning the bus is on the campus of indiana university. on it we are joined by the president of indiana university, michael mcrobbie. thank you for joining us. >> delighted to be here and welcome to indiana university. >> thank you for the invitation. can we start, president, with your general thoughts before we talk about the details of the ho

university, but your thoughts o the greatest challenges facing those in higher education today? >> oh, i would say that probably the greatest challenge in front of us is to continue to providee a qualityng and affordable education, especially to the students within the state of e c indiana. we are a state university, after all.niversit and keeping that education botin affordable but also ensuring its quality so that our students are graduating with a very high level of skill that will enables them to prosper in the workplace is one of the greatest challenges. of course, that involves a whole range of factors to do with the sources of funding for an institution with a budget of to $3.3 billion. >> what steps do you think d ar

to take place to balance that oa affo with quality? well, i think one of the key it things that we are doing in terms of affordability is we have focused in the last couplel ofit years on the issue of studl debt. you are probably aware that this has gone -- i'm sure you're aware that has got enormous and appropriate national attention.e it has been a concern of ours.t. so last year, we introduced a comprehensive financial literaca program that involves things like modules that all entering freshmen have to complete on ve finance literacy, courses on finance literacy for credit, a variety of administrative mat others that give students better control and knowledge of their student debt.

what is and remarkable about ths that we saw an 11% drop in the amount of debt that students 11 took on this year. and that amounted to $31 stude million. what i thinknt is remarkable abt that is that if you multiply that across all the institution of higher education in the country -- there are 4,500 of r those. if you multiply that, you could see how one could have an enormous impact on the amount of student debt that students are t taking on. of course, that is a critical k component of affordability. can one find the resources to fund an education?fu so that has beennd a really maj program that we have been focusing on, aimed at an affordability of an indiana university education. >> what would you tell students who possibly are looking at y mounting debt to get an

education? whatfo if they ask you the question if college was worth il it? how would you answer? >> well, i don't think there's any doubt that college is worth it. study after studydon'he after s shows that your prospects in thy workplace in general are better with a college degree than without a college degree. are b now, it certainly is the case that there is a growing emphasis on the kinds of skills that students are graduating with. and we have put in place -- i an announced this last year, that i asked all of our schools to f comprehensively evaluate c opportunities for creative combinations of degrees, certificates, associate's, ate,a master's degrees and so on. just last week we nunls eannouna

new program between our school of business and a college of arts and sciences that will give a master's degree that will provide a bachelor's degree in a field like economics, like e mathematics and so on and then o one-year master's degree in business. so that's an accelerated eleratd process. master's degree can be completed online. you can see how students in a number of different fields can graduate, go into the workplacer and then complete another master's -- complete a master's degree online in, obviously, a very practical applied area of business, which is a skill that is always going to be marketable by our students. we're looking at initiatives like that right across the board at the institution.ooking we have a a program already tha

provides a certificate in a prog businessra on top of different a bachelor's degrees as well. we are very mindful -- i think we have a responsibility to our students to be concerned about t theiudr welfare after they graduate. we simply cannot as an institution complete a student's education and wave them good-byn and not take -- not be concerned about what happens to them then. the programs i have described to you are focused in part on responding to the need for greater schools to go along with the classic kind of liberal arts education that we provide at indiana university. and we're also mindful of the pr fact that in spite of the fact n thatd unemployment is still relatively high, though falling, there are by some estimates 2 or 3 million unfilled positions poi

because not enough graduates are graduating with the right the skills. a final part of that is a the fi comprehensive approach across the university to really improve career consulting. career advising, sorry. we're focused on ensuring all of our students have access to top quality career advising to helpp to maximize their opportunities to find employment once they graduate. >> c-span bus is doing a big 10. cllege tour. presidents are joining us on the bus to talk about issues of re higher education.bu we're joined bys the head of uo indiana university.n. he is here to take your questions on issues of higher o education. you may have gone to the school or maybe you have questions on the issue of higher education.t here is your chance to talk to him about it.dents, 02-585-3880 for college students. parents, 202-585-3881. perhaps an educator, .

202-585-3882. indiana residents, 202-585-3883e 36,000 are undergraduate, 10,000 graduate students and faculty and staff of 8,300. when you talk about cost of 830. indianaspecifically for university, how much of your ecc cost is taken up by employee salary, staff salary and ties? facilities? >> personnel salaries are the largest single component of the cost in the university. it would be around 80% of the total cost of the institution are personnel related salary plus benefits, healthcare and so on. we are a personnel intensive organization like most other lo universities. we are very much focused on that

direct interaction between students and instructors in the classroom. although i think we're seeing ac greater andt greater impact of n online education, i still don't think there's an enormous amount of evidence it's going to complete the fundamental student/teacher relationship which has existed for as long as universities have existed, which is over 25 centuries. ch >> the annual budget for indiaa university, $1.4 billion. bil approximately 370,000 worldwide. you talked about personnel. what about facilities. how much do you have to pay to keep up facilities and add facilities. is my eighth year as president. this has been a major focus of our board of trustees over the

period. like many institutions, i'm t afraid we actually had a very y large deferred maintenance bill. this is the kind of stuff that'. not glamourous. it's the roads and sidewalks ans tunnels, etc. there's a rule in business thatl every dollars, that you don't s spend now you're going to have to spend $4 in the future to rectify that. so we have been putting over the last seven odd years or so an enormous amount of effort into trying to -- at that level -- r catch upam with the significant burden of deferred maintenance. more recently, we have had just excellent support from the , wev state. on top of that, we're also looking at renovating major buildings on the campus and bringing them up to the kinds oe standards and to provide the kinds of facilities that are required to support the type oft research one expects of a 21st century university.

the last seven years we have constructed or have under we construction at the moment or in planning over 50 major facilities. and we have spent about -- this is all cost about $1.5 billion. what's interesting about that s that only 30% of that has come from the state. the other 70% has come from a variety of other areas including a considerable amount of individual philanthropy. >> for educators, 202-585-3882. for residents of indiana, 2020-558-3883. let's start with ann who is a parent. >> caller: that's a beautiful e campus and town.s, a i want to talk about my tperience as a single parent with three daughters and not much economic help with my ex. i have encouraged my daughters, in their 30s now, that -- to be

excellent students and that that was their job. they did. i was middle income. they qualified for great scholarships at small, private schools. i only ended up having to pay $4,000 a year.pa then the other -- got into -- they got into private schools.ve they didn't give great mpackage. we found out after her first year -- we went into debt for first year -- that we ran into b lot of extremely wealthy kids who were lying about being in-state status at a large stas school. and then getting in-state pay, which she did get after jumping through all the hoops of living in state after her freshman year for a year. do you have that same kind of thing where wealthy kids are fr

claiming to be in-state, actually getting money from parents which has happened at university of colorado big-timel talk about small schools and giving, i believe, better scholarships and funding than large state schools. f i hope c-span goes and visits some of the small private schools. if you could address that issue. >> thank you.so i go ahead, president.host >> firstly, let me say that we take very seriously and are required to by the state the distinction between in-state an out of state students.ts. we have rigorous requirements as to what the residency requirements and other requirements are for a student to be regarded as an in-state tu student. we have committees that deal with appeals and requests to be nd q considered as in-state on a regular basis. they are very hard nosed about

what the criteria are. we pride ourselves on applying them consistently across the whole university, all campuses. with respect to financial aid and scholarships and so on thati you were talking about, we're a very large university. we have on this campus over 46,000 students. 36,000 undergraduates. we also pride ourselves on the that for students with average family -- in-state students with average family incomes of $50,000, they pay almost no tuition because the combination of state, federal and university-based financial aid pretty much covers the tota cost of the tuition. for students with family incomes of $100,000 or less, they pay somewhere in the vicinity of p about half the total cost of tuition because of the different

sources of aid that are available to them. in fact, on this campus, about two-thirds of our students get f some form of financial aid.et sm it was a major focus of our lasr two campaigns.st it will be a major focus of our upcoming campaign. in our last campaign for our bloomington campus, we raised ng over $200 million. if you include graduate scholarships, probably closer to $300 million in support of scholarships, fellowships and si on for undergraduate students oh both need and ability to come to indiana university of bloomington. >> president mcrobbie, what qualifications do you look at i accepting potential students? >> firstly, we look at, obviousobvious ly, the things that all institutions do. the s their gpa, class ranking, what

extracurricular activities they have engaged in. we also use what we call holistic evaluation, that is on whole, most students, a decision is easy to make yes or no. there's still a significant number of students who fall somewhere in the middle where you want tome actually take into account everything about that student. maybe the g gpa is not that gret but if you look at the gpa it started low in their freshman l year in high school but by the time they got to senior year it improved. there's to sign of maturity. maybe an extracurricular curricl activity, they have been leaders or innovators at their high school. we want to take all of that into account and ensure that as a large state public institution that we really are doing all that we can to identify and find

those students who we think doih prosperos at indiana university. >> what about students who may need remedial help once they ept the university? what kind of assistance are thee offered? >>d? in indiana, as a state, mo of the remediation is actually carried out by eied out by the e college system. on this campus, we provide very little remediation anymore.e that is actually provided externally.prov we find that our students on the whole arrive pretty well qualified for the courses of study that they are intending to undertake. if they need remediation, they take that in a community college campuses. >> how many students are taking humanities or social science versus professional and technical majors?lasses what's the v breakdown?

>> i don't have an exact figure in my head.gues i think in our college of arts and sciences, about a third.we we are a university strong in the humanities and in the social sciences with highly ranked hly departments in those areas.rankd this a is an opportunity to addo that that languages has been an area that we've been particularly strong in. we teach in one year somewhere h between 70 and 80 different foreign languages, which is probably makes us in terms of the number of languages taught one of the top institutions in the country.institut there are a few other universities that teach that many foreign languages. we teach from just about every

part of the world. we also teach the culture and politics, economics, history and so on of most parts of the world. we have a series of federally funded title 6 centers that arei cover the whole of the world asl well. we decided that we needed to bring all that together to try to increase the kinds of that educational opportunities that p we provide forro our students. two years ago, our board of trustees approved formation of a new school of global and format internationalio studies. your colleagues in the bus will see the very large building ur l we're building atle the moment that will house that new schoolt that school will house languagee programs in 70 to 80 foreign languages and associated programs in the culture of those -- those particular

regions of the country. we appointed a new dean of -- aa foundation dean for the school last year. he has commenced his position here. he's aan former u.s. ambassadore poland and has worked in the white house and elsewhere in washington. our goal in that area is to become one of the top international study schools in midwest and provide not only specialist qualifications in international[ñck?ííó studies b expand and enhance the kinds of our students. because in my view, it's been a priority of mind and the trustees, one of the most important things we have to provide as a student is interes are national literacy.ernation >> george from indiana, a

parent. >> caller: hi.lle, my question is regarding the endowment. you see it at 800-plus million dollars. what is it used for? i see date rape and alcohol use on campus.ate ra what is the university doing about that?e it o i will take it offline, thanks. >> let me deal with the second part of your question first. there is nothing more important to us as a university than the welfare of our students. welfare we are obviously deeply concerned about the welfare of all of our students. earlier this year, we announced a student welfare initiative which is a comprehensive a approach to problems of sexual s violence and the other kinds of issues that you have raised across the institution that er n

is -- that is actually managed at the very highest level in tht institution. two vice presidents co-chair an executive counsel responsible to the comprehensive evaluation of our present policies, their improvement and the implementation of new policies in this area. i should add that one of the ths things we're most proud of on this campus is the fact that our students are not just sitting os around waiting for the administration to do more to address these issues and so on.s our students aues number of yee ago completely of their own initiative forms an initiative called student care which is nit completelyiv run, managed by ou students which is focused on students helping students.

this is something that i have nothing but praise for the workh of our students to put this this program in place. it has had a significant impact. it has been widely praised and looked at by other institutionsy returning to your first part of your thquestion, the total ment endowment of the university is across all campuses is $1.8 a billion. i should notecr that we're very proud of this. this pales compared to harvard which has a total of $35 billion. the c$1.8 billion endowment th we have goes toward a variety of different purposes.owment those are w defined by the dono for example, i'm a donor to the institution. my wifeexon and i support four different graduate fellowships there. those graduate fellowships are defined by a formal legal agreement between me and our

university foundation that's er. responsible for this. that's true of tens of thousands of if not hundreds of thousands of other people. though it sounds like a large od amount of money, the great bulk of it is all identified for l specific purposes undergraduate scholarships, graduate fellowships, funding to support research programs in the very schools within the university and some of it to support the building and infrastructu infrastructure. >> our guest is michael mcrobbie, president of indiana university. a native ofan b australia., how did you end up the president? >> how did you know i was a howi native of australia? [ laughter ] i was recruited here for -- i'm

a computer scientist. i was recruited here over 18 years ago. i came here as a vice president for information technology and computer scientist. i then became vice president for research. then i was appointed president. i never expected when i moved here that i would end up president of the university. but i'm honored and delighted to be in this position. i must say as much as i enjoy sh visiting my home country, i'm an american citizen now. i neverry, regretted the move f one second.never this is home. one indiana, bloomington, wonderfuln place. indiana university is a fabuloua university. i enjoy every minute of my life here. >> let's hear from lawrence from pennsylvania, an educator. >> caller: hi. president mcrobbie, i'd like to get into your general education program. i'd like to know, kind of a

follow-up toli an earlier comme, on what kind of humanities, kino philosophy, english -- all students are likely to get in the important first two years of college? thank you very much.get >> we have a general education > program that with some variations applies to all of thf campuses of the university, all seven campuses of the university. but on this campus in particular -- baring in mind it's a large campus. in summary, students are expected to have done a series of consecutive courses in the humanities, social sciences, natural sciences, mathematics and also to have done a number of years of a foreign language.

this was put in place by our faculty through their initiative now about eight or nine years ago. and has recently commenced. and it is a program -- the general concept of the general education is something that has my complete support. it is to me one of the real fundamentals of american higher education, that is what's called a liberal education. you get an education in the different areas of human knowledge, but you also get an education in certain areas whicd you major or minor, you get an education in some depth. that model, the american model of liberal education is, f frankly, the best in the world. i speak as somebody who has come from another part of the world r and hast seen other

education around the world. it's one of the most envied things about the education is the quality of liberal education you get at an american university. i wasatio in china five years aw meeting with m chinese universi presidents. ago they told me, we have look iveri studied your system of educatioe and we have poured money into hugher education in china. we're not getting the right kin. of graduate who is so creative and innovative as the kinds of graded as that come out of tha american universities. we believe theco key thing we'ru missing is the system of liberal education you have in the united states. you will see chinese universities have been developing that kind of an approach because of what they see as the enormous success that the system has had in the united

states. >> 202-558-3880 for students. parents, 202-585-3881. for educators, 202-585-3882. for indiana residents, 3882, 202-585-3883. i'm sure you have heard the argument that you should go to college, get an education that will guarantee you a job. >> i would go back to what i jo? said before about the fact that we're certainly aware of that concern. as i indicated and gave an rn. example of a major new initiative that we just recently announced which provides both a bachelor's degree of the classi kind that i was just describing with a one-year master's degreer in business and provides it on an accelerated basis. normally that would take six years or so.ally

we provide this in five years and provide the opportunity for the last year to be online. that's in direct response to that concern which i think in some cases is a legitimate one. as i also said, we are -- have looked at and are looking at expanding that across all of our schools. for example, l our school of o computing is in the process of developing the same kinds of ccelerated bachelor's degrees plus master's degrees and so ons that d provide somebody with a qualification in computing on top of a bachelor's degree of a more classic kind. as i said, we're very much awar of that. but we think that there are enormous benefits of the classic liberal education on the kind i was just describing.s but then when coupled with an

additional qualification, business and so on, really well positions and well qualifies am student to be successful in theh workplace. >> what competition does the university get from for-profit v universities? >> i don't see very much competition at all, frankly, eto from nfor-profits, very little. i see -- i think our major e. competition is from the rest ofi the big 10.or all my colleagues you are n is f visiting around theor midwest. we all compete among ourselves i think in a healthy way for besty students and the best faculty.nb the universities you are visiting are in some ways one of unheralded strengths of this country. people maybe think more of the west coast and east coast.of the but the big 10 universities tha you are visiting of which theres

are now 14 -- the big 10 g te universities you are visiting i enormous ly do an percentage of all the research, train an enormous percentage of students in the united states, something of which in the big 1c we are proud. >> what do you think about the quality of for-profit units?t >> i didn't catch that. >> what do you think about the s quality of ?for-profit universities? >> i would leave that to other. there has been controversy about that question. i think the key thing as i saidi is we see -- we see -- see -- a for-profit, you're not talking private institutions, which aree not for-profits but different to a public university. but we see very little competition from them.them. >> lou from virginia beach, a parent.

>> caller: how are you doing? >> go ahead. >> caller: i'm trying to ask th question that -- about he explained -- mr. mcrobbie explained about being a liberal education. how doesed he mean liberal?g a e what does he mean by liberal? hopefully, it's basically in english. basically he's teaching the foreign languages for basically understanding but not teaching in those foreign languages. >> we will let our guest respond. >> yes. i quite often have to say when i talk about a liberal education, i do not mean in the political sense. i mean in the classic sense of both breadth and depth in an education. that's what i mean by that. that does involve, as i said in

response to one of the other questioners, being able to have done courses in indicative areas of great breadth of human knowledges. >> mr. president, a question about academics from twitter saying -- a viewer asking, should college athletes be paid beyond a scholarship for bringing in millions to the university budget? >> i think that -- this is an area where we really have responded vigorously. i would like to think we have become a national leader. earlier this year, we announced our student athlete bill of rights. there's some very fundamental new innovations in that student athlete bill of rights.

firstly, we will cover the fulla cost of attendance for our of l our student athletes. everything that's involved in i their education is covered through the scholarships we nd provide.lars more importantly, we are now going to provide full four-year scholarships. as a student comes -- a student athlete comes to our u and te cm startses and even if for performance reasons, other fo reasons they are no longer competing in athletics, we will guarantee them a scholarship fol the four years. a sch it removes from -- the concern -- any worries about the future of their education. then on top of that, we're also mindful that for reasons sometimes the family related, 'e sometimes other reasons, a student may leav e before they graduate. we wills, guarantee that at som point in the future that that h student that we will then cover the remaining cost of that n

student's education, assuming co they're in good economic of th standing. you think about that. a student comes to our u. he or she has been a fantastic h athlete. they get recruited to go into ta thsteic professional in whateve their sport is. they don't finish their degree. they break their leg. they can never play again. a what are they left with?ga with? probably very little. we will guarantee the cost of their education back at indiana university to finish their degree so they now have a chancd to kind of re-establish so th themselves in another profession with that indiana university t qualification. there's a series of other major components to our student athlete bill of rights. stude there was are ten major components to it. it's very much focused on a really comprehensive approach th improving all aspects of our engagement with student athletes at the university. >> mr. president, what do you

see as the future of the university, not just yours, but, universities as whole? what do they face as the futuree continues? >> well, i have had a particular interest in the history of universities. i'm fond of saying that with th exception probably of the catholic church, universities are the longest lived human institutions on the face of the planet. there's a university in china that claims to have been founde in 200 b.c. so it's older than the catholic church. e history of some of atho the greatli universities in indy and so oon.f they existed for a thousand they years before they came to an end. universities really have the seeds of being very long lived within them. that doesn't mean that there edf aren't fundamental changes coming in terms of already herea in terms of the model of

education that be provide. i'm an information technologist. i have seen the impact for 40-odd years of my career. information technology is having a major affect. but it has had a major affect m for the last 40 years. to me, that affect is more increme incremental. i'm not somebody that believes it's going to collapse tomorrow and become a new model. i think it'selic v going to cha. i think it's going to keep changing. the chairman of our board says that all university administrators should make up scared every day about where the changes might go. but i think so far what we're seeing is incremental but constant change as opposed to complete paradigm change withins theta institution.mplete >> if you had to look at one thing you would say universities have to do to say competitive, what would that be?

>> well, i think clearly where we started the interview, they have to remain affordable. i give an example of that the fact that we, last year, had our lowest ever -- at least for 40 years -- tuition increase. we're focused on keeping an education affordable. the other thing is is that we also at the same time have to be able to compete for the very best intellectual talent out there. if by universities you mean american universities, it's a ac white hot competition for the w very best intellectual talent out there. we compete now -- i have seen we this happen in recent years.rect very good faculty from asia,

urope who probably would not have considered going back to yl theird home countries ten year ago who have returned to their h home countries because they have got better offers there. -- that's the very best faculty doing the best research and the great teachers.gogists, it's these people who are really fundamental to our institution in both retaining them and recruiting them to us is a critical part what have we do. >> let's hear from kathy, an indiana resident. if you can jump right in with your question, go ahead.the >> caller: yes, sir. i'm a cosigner for all of my daughter's student loans. she's a graduate from iu. it's crippling to our family >> what's happening to us. i've been served over seven . times from the sheriff's office, we have been late on student loans. what can be o done about this? we signed up for the

scholarship. we did everything that was supposed to be done. when it was time to go to clem, it fell gthrough. her american dream is not realistic. she will never get married, by a home. we are so far in debt. the job she has now has nothing. to do with her college degree. she doesn't even need i agree for it. we're sunk. >> i think that the kind of story you tell is, i'm afraid, all too common. we have very much focused on trying to reduce that kind of problem in the future. kind that was, i think earlier in the interview, what i described was a comprehensive approach to financial literacy at indiana a university. an approach thatpp both educate students in personal financial

management. it actually educates them in the consequences of taking loans. it helps to educate them in eda understanding what they really need money for as opposed to as just being given what's the equivalent of a credit card wit a big limit on it.with we are aware of the fact that a lot of student are getting loan beyonda what they need for thed education. getting a. handle on and managi student debt again is one of the most important things that we'rt doing as an institution. i think the impact of this, as indicated before, 11% reduction in the amount of -- the amount of money borrowed by indiana university students last year, $31 million reduction is at ity least the beginning of a way of reducing the kinds of problems that you have just described.he

all of what i described is in place or continued to be in place. we will enhance and build it. i expect us to see a continued decrease in the amount of a con student debtti at the universit combined with an increasing amount of funding for scholarships, fellowships, student financial aid, coming through things like campaigns in the institution.pa it will beig a major focus of o next campaign whichour wie'll announcing shortly. >> how often do you meet with e the student body directly? >> i spent -- i spent probably l three hours last -- just last friday afternoon with a group of student advisers to the president. we have had this group now for nearly 100 years.s near i meet with them on a regular w

basis. it's oneit group i meet with. later today, i have lunch with all of the student leaders on this campus. stude so i'mnt probably interacting oa weekly basis with student leadership in some form.udent i have a number of student interns who work in my office. but i should add that, we are a very large institution. we have seven campuses across p the state.across with 115,000 students in total for indiana university. comprehensively keeping in touch all of them is obviously touch going towi be difficult.obvi but i certainly think i get a good sense of the feel from the student body. feel fo i have to say that the kind of work that has come out of our students -- i mentioned the culture of care initiative of u

before. the group -- theents adviser gri talked about. they provide me with annual reports on different areas that we agree on. the quality of work that comes s out of our students is good as t as in i work coming out of any faculty. >> we will have to leave this conversation with you. michael mcrobbie of indiana university, the president joining us. thank you. friday the arkansas governor congress for 12 years in arkansas. mr. hutchinson is a former congressman. he served as the administrator of the u.s. drug enforcement administration. here is a look at some of the ads in the campaign. >> the democrat gazette said the attacks on mike ross are not true and a smear on his family business. there was never a justice department investigation and the

house ethics committee approved the sale. why is ross' family being attacked for building their business into a success? to cover up the fact he got caught cheating on his taxes. he has a record putting millionaires before the middle class. sorry, asa, this coverup won't work. >> he voted to cut college loans. >> he opposed mike ross' plan to expand pre-k. >> it's the wrong direction. >> mike ross says education must be a priority. >> a pre-k plan. >> career tech training and college tuopportunities. >> teachers have endorsed mike ross. >> on education, mike has a record i can trust. >> you have seen this later smear piece paid by for allies of barak obama? here is what they don't want you

to know. asa found a mistake in his tachs. he reported the mistake and paid his bill in full. many of us have made mistakes on taxes. asa was honest enough to admit it. that doesn't stop team obama. they know lies got him re-elected. they hope it works for mike ross as well. fortunately, arkansas knows better. >> it's a $16 billion industry. arkansas' largest. with 97% of our farms family owned, our next governor must fight on their side. when some criticize free trade, it only hurts our farmers. whether it's rice, wheat or poultry, i want to keep arkansas business open to the world. it's the best way to grow our economy and create jobs. i'm asa. as governor, we will hit the ground running and never look back. >> the debate live from little rock friday 8:00 eastern on

c-span. the islamic society of north america recently held their annual convention in detroit, michigan. one session addressed various aspects and influences of muslim american culture. this is an hour and 45 minutes. thank you so much. thank you so much for coming out tonight. we have a wonderful panel of speakers. we're hoping that this is going to be an informal discussion but one in which we can really be open with each other and really explore not only culture but where we as muslim americans are headed in the future. first of all, we're going to begin -- each of our panelists

has been given a question. they prepared a brief sort of response to that. after they are done talking, we're going to do follow-up questions. in addition, if you have your cell phones, please if you have twitter, we're use ing #isnaculture. if you have any comments or questions while you're listening, please post those. we'll go through those and address them as well throughout the conversation. we're going to start over here to my left. she's an activist scholar artist whose work explores the intersection of race, religion and popular culture. currently she's assistant professor of anthropology and african-american studies at purdue university. she received her ph.d. in cultural anthropology from princeton university and is a graduate from the school of foreign service at georgetown university. she has published numerous writings and has also worked on artistic endeavors including as

a consultant for a documentary and as a published poet. you can also find her on the cover of a magazine this month where the focus is on discussions about race in the muslim community. a brooklyn native, she's unashamedly black, and unapologetically muslim. please welcome her. >> i want to first thank you for the great introduction. also everyone for the invitation to participate in this conversation tonight. so should i read the question? here, read the question. >> i forgot to ask the question.

what i wanted to know is what is the basic premise of culture. not just sort of the basic premise of culture, but jumping into our present day and exploring what we're currently seeing with the next wave of american muslims. it seems as though they are testing boundaries and expressing themselves in ways that 20 years would have been controversial. what's going on? >> so i like to begin to answer that question by really addressing a fundamental misconception that dominates the ways american muslims talk about culture. this misconception is this idea that we're in dire need of an american-muslim culture. we don't need it, we already have it. we are already doing american-muslim culture. this is because culture is about meaning making.

right? it's the way human beings make the world make sense. so culture is made in the values we attach to those things that we can see, touch, taste, hear, feel and also those abstract and symbolic things like ideas and concepts to be developed. so culture is made by living. and so the minute people live in this place that we call america as muslims, that is the moment in which we begin having american muslim culture. at the same time, however, i think we also want to think about this notion of american-muslim culture in two ways. first, we want to think about sort of american-muslim culture with a capital c on culture. right? these are the cultural things that we share across our different classes of race gender, class and so on. and then there's this second level of american-muslim culture.

right? american-muslim cultures. because this plural form is necessary because of our diversity. right? and so there are many different sort of cultural forms may look different for different communities. take an example that happened here, i think, last year. right? so last year the chaplain at northwestern university read the koran. in a mixed-gender audience. i think for this organization and the communities that's attached to it, this was a ground breaking sort of thing. yet in other communities, such as the community of mohammed, i don't think there's ever been a moment where a woman was denied the opportunity to cite the koran. in front of men and women, right? so while we celebrate the leadership on that particular choice in this particular community, we don't identify it as this new thing, but rather sort of a shift in one american-muslim culture that's

representative of an extension of a culture with a capital c. write? at the same time, we don't lose sight of the fact that gender and equity is a persistent problem with an american-muslim culture with a capital c. right? so whether it's other communities, we still have challenges in which how many women are on a panel, for example. or things that are much more harrowing like the silence around domestic violence. so gender and equality is a challenge within the culture with a capital c. right? likewise, i think you didn't mention this, but in the question that you gave, you talked about some examples of things that this new wave that muslims are doing that is sort of testing boundaries.

right? so you might have, for example, a young american woman who decides to tie her scarf in a turban-like style. it may be very true that in her particular community, she is testing a boundary. but she's not doing something that is new. write -- right? despite the fact that "the new york times" might like us to think. i think i posted on facebook. how many times can they write the same article? american-muslim women like to look nice. and every sort of quarter they are discovering this again. so there's a way in which we want to identify shifts that happen in communities. we want to understand this notion of american muslim culture and what that is as one that's something that has always been in existence and continues to exist as long as we sort of live in this place we call america as muslims and also we

want to pay attention to the fact that there's something much more powerful about a narrative of american muslim culture that is one of continuity. this muslim woman is extending a stylistic choice that may predate her from her african-american counterparts. then this narrative of, look, i woke up one day and decided to put my scarf in a turban. and more importantly, i think for me, the question that i'm interested in asking or the question that i'm interested in posing is what kind of boundaries are being tested? right? are people testing boundaries in ways that are just remixing white supremacy? so for example, does hip hop become the backdrop to their own fantasies if they are the center of the universe, right? can american muslims now clim to belong because just like everybody else we use blacks as props.

and i think i'm asking that question because in our community and across our difference, there's a lot of anxiety about representation, right? how we are being seen or featured in the media. and the anxiety is warranted, right, because everyone is tired of seeing the woman who is being beat by her tyrant husband who eats babies for lunch. people are tired of seeing that. but at the same time, we can't just sort of exchange one overly simplified narrative of who we are for another. so maybe instead of a burka-clad victim of domestic violence now

we have this kind of uber yuppy or hippy, but she's still one dimensional. and when it comes to questions of race in particular, she's still not -- she doesn't believe that black life matters. these things are still a part of the story. and so for me, i think that what i'd like us to think about, there are two points i want to make. one point is so the question of representation, right, i think muslims often articulate for these simple representation of what this one american scholar called simplified complex representations. so they look good, but if you think about them, they are not really good because they don't shift the status quo. so she says for example, there will be a muslim on a television show because she focuses on tv. right? the muslim isn't the terrorist. it isn't the person bombing the thing, but it's the one calling the fbi to say the other is the terrorist. so that's great, but it's not great because the only way we can understand or see a muslim

is in the context of this idea that they are a good muslim in comparison to the bad one. right? and so muslims, i think, we want these good representations or cultural representations that are better, but i think we have to sort of -- basically, we have to crush the pipe dream that if we act better, if we look more peaceful, that the people who don't like us will like us. and i think from that measure, we learn from the black experience. african-americans have learned that respectability politics, you can be a harvard university professor and still profiled by the police. they will still shoot you, leave you in the street, and then call your community animals because they stand up for your life. so these things will continue to happen. so it's not about sort of replacing one overly simplified notion of who we are with