and islam there rives on ignorance. >> how do peaceful muslims relate to the koran which tells them to lie and kill the infidels. >> they don't read it. unfortunately a lot of muslims, like me, i never really cared to read the koran. but i consider myself muslim. i used to defend the palestinians without thinking. i defended them like they were victims. but now i look back and say, my god, it's not the truth. arabs don't want peace. they don't want peace and that's the truth. so the reason is because they don't read it. they don't read the hate speech in the koran. >> i'm going to combine a couple

of questions that feel a little complementary to me. one may even partially answer the other. first one is how do you balance religious freedom against islam's desire to take over the world? the second one is, given your description of what islam is and does, how can it be considered a religion? >> that's a very good question. number one, i think we should define in america what a religion should be. and i'll tell you what my definition will be. a religion will be given the respect in america to be practiced only if it respects human -- basic human rights. [ applause ] any religion -- any religion -- we have to define religion. so if we define religion as a set of values and morals to live by, if a religion condemns those to leave it to death, its right to be practiced in america will

be null and void. [ applause ] and that's the only way we can either reform islam, we have to get rid of that and we can judge islam by the way muslims practiced in america. by the way. we have to judge islam by how it's being practiced in iran and saudi arabia. because wherever is islam is a majority, when they're in the minority they admit it, even the koran, when you're in the minority, lie and slander, and accept -- and act like you like peace. so you're dealing with a religion that teaches lying as a virtue. >> islam is notoriously hostile to people who renounce their ideology. you must be a real thorn in their side. have you personally experienced violence or threats? >> oh, yeah.

i have a fatwa on me to die if i go to egypt. and that's why i can't visit. the only country i can visit in the middle east is israel. this is the only country i can visit and stay alive. so that is the religion of peace. >> what, if anything, do you think we should do in syria? does taking any side make sense? >> no. we should keep out of syria. if arabs -- the arab world is very rich, by the way. and they have huge armies. if they want to save the syrian people, let them do it. stop interfering between people who are both bad. i mean you say shiite or sunni, they're both terrorists.

we can't go against shiite with sunni or sunni with shiites, they both want to kill us. >> can you comment on the recent events where a jewish-based university, brandeis, reversed an invitation to a speaker to give an address at commencement. >> i will tell you something about it. a lot of people exorcising the jewish people because they are not standing up and inviting people who are like me. i see ari enough. let me tell you something, it's time for us nonjews to stand in the front line against radical islam. we should not leave the jewish to do that job. it's our job. it's the job of christians. and i noticed that the christians in america are also not speaking out. such as the jews. so of course, i would have liked

brandeis to keep its invitation and not rescind it, it's a shame. but i can understand why the jews have done enough fighting for the life against radical islam. it's time for the rest of the world to wake up. >> can your name any prominent leaders in either party in the united states who understand and give voice to the threat? >> who understand and what? >> and give voice to the threat that we're facing. >> to what? >> to the threat. >> to the threat of islam. i think there's a lot of republicans who are called racist and bigots, and islam-phones. unfortunately we have neutral -- neutered our politicians. we have a lot of great men and women. we have sarah palin. we have great men and women.

we don't have a shortage of good politicians. a lot of people are angry at our politicians, but you know who i'm angry at? it's us, who don't go and vote. last election the reason mitt romney didn't vote because a lot of christians were saying, we don't want to vote for a mormon. this is ridiculous. you judge a person by his character and the man has very good character, very good family. and what did we get? that's what we got. so we're getting what we deserve. >> when shiites and sunnis fight and kill one another, should we do anything besides sit back, make popcorn and enjoy the spectacle? >> absolutely. just don't interfere. and by the way, i'm totally

against going into iraq and going into afghanistan and do nation building after that. excuse me, we're becoming a poor country. we have a lot of poor in america. we don't nation build oil-rich countries. let their muslim brethren build their nations. they have plenty of money instead of sending it here to build mosques. let them send it there and fix their own country. >> why does the west give money to islamic terrorists groups? like the muslim brotherhood, al qaeda, hamas, fattah and others? >> i think it started when egypt had the peace treaty, that's how it started. it's like an insurance policy. egypt is a poor country. and here is our money, don't fight israel. i think that is, more or less,

the reason we give money to egypt. that's the truth. we don't admit it, but that's the truth. israel, we should support israel, absolutely, financially. because israel has been you know, has been abandoned by the world. look at what the united nations is doing to israel. so i think egypt, we're helping egypt so they don't attack israel. but gaza and the west bank? don't send them a dime. let saudi arabia, who is encouraging them, to do the terrorism, to either support them or leave them to fend for themselves and get a job. they need a job. the palestinian people need jobs.

they don't need terror. [ inaudible ] >> yeah, of course, saudi arabia, 15 of the 19 terrorists were saudis. i mean, saudi arabia is the most dangerous country in this world. in my opinion, it's more dangerous than iran. but you know why, because at least iran fights for it. saudi arabia pays other nations to fight its dirty work through terror. and that scares me more than countries that are up front. they tell you, i'm your enemy and i'm going to kill you. now i can deal with you. saudi arabia says i am your ally, and here's the money. go fly airplanes into buildings. it's the most dangerous nation in the middle east. it's the home of islam. this is where mohammed came from.

>> why do you suppose the 1 billion muslim slaves don't revolt? >> one million muslims what -- >> the one billion muslim slaves don't revolt? >> because when you put somebody in -- for a very long time in a prison, if you open the gate, they don't all run right away. some people stay in the prison. like me when i came to america, i didn't feel free right away. took me a long time. so and also the power of oppression of the society around you, if you live in the muslim world, it's very different from being a muslim and you live here. it's very easy here to just dump islam and adopt american values. when you're living there, the social pressure on you to go pray and social pressure is very, very high. it's changing, however.

and i'm seeing hope that islam will go dormant again. but it's not going to go dormant, the culture takes decades to change. a human being can change quicker than a culture. so in a few decades, if we start drilling over in america, we have plenty of, then saudi arabia can drink its oil. and that's why anybody in america who is against drilling, against coal, and against doing -- they're trying to say that the environment will suffer if we drill for oil. are you kidding me? look at saudi arabia and qatar. they have the most beautiful beaches of the red sea! and they're drilling right and left. the life span of a saudi before they discovered oil was like 40

years old. now it's like 75. so i don't see that the camels are dying in saudi arabia from the drilling. they're flourishing. the red sea and arabian sea are full of fish. so what are we afraid of? that's all lies. the liberals are lying to you. because their agenda is to stop the industrialization of america. they want us to roll back and to take the word catch up with us. that's the real motivation. but they have to -- they can't be honest. they are like the islamic ideology. they use lying to reach their goals. it's exactly like islam. i would have more respect for liberals if they tell you their agenda honestly.

and let's have an honest debate. but they don't want to have an honest debate. the liberals want to call you names just like islam calls you, you're a -- you're a racist, you're islam-phobe. that's why -- [ inaudible ] >> yes, it was very hard. i couldn't change right away because really to live under islam for a long time can demoralize you. it's a burden. i have a chapter in my last book. it's called a muslim's burden. you know christianity lifts your burden, it feeds you, it takes away your guilt.

that's how we become in christianity. in islam it's a culture of shaming. it's a culture of control. it's a culture of putting burden on the individual. you know, in christianity, god came down to save us. in islam, we must save allah's reputation. that's why they riot if you say anything about allah or mohammed, because it's the duty of the muslim to carry the burden of mohammed and defend him. so it's exactly the opposite. so it wasn't -- as soon as my mind cleared, which took a few years living under freedom, i went to, you know, i -- i went to several churches and synagogues. and frankly, i don't find any -- i find judaism and christianity as like one in my eyes. i don't know why. christians don't see that, but i see it. because christianity could never have happened without judaism.

so i look at the jaw dayic christian culture as one, and the reason i became christian, i was watching one morning in '97 tv on sunday morning, and i was flipping channels, and there were preachers, one after the other. they were praying for the whole world. they were praying for peace on earth. they were praying for everybody, all nations, and that just struck me. i said, oh, my god, my religion curses. i grew up with cursing. every friday prayer, they would sit and curse and bang and get the sword out. jihad. may god destroy the jews and the infidels, the enemies of allah. and people go out of the mosque and kill christians as a result of being a muslim. i saw the man, he made me feel so at peace.

so -- you know, i became a better person. and therefore it wasn't difficult for me to become christian. and to support israel. [ applause ] it lifted my guilt. >> i have one more question for you. then we want to make sure you have time to sign books for your fans. >> sure. >> so this one is a challenging one. you say you're not against muslims, but against their ideology. how can you separate the two? you're not holding people accountable for their actions. ideology doesn't kill people, people kill people. >> i agree in a way. but, we human beings are very weak. let me tell you, we are all born half good and half bad. depending on our religion, we either strengthen the good or strengthen the bad. muslims are the victims of islam. they have been brought up in an

ideology. we don't even know that lying and slander against jews is evil. we think it's a virtue. believe me, if i go and say in the muslim world today, if i make a speech about forgiveness between jews and arabs, i would be shot dead on the spot as a traitor. while the same sermon in america about forgiveness between jews and arabs would give me a nobel peace prize. you know? so it's the same thing. but one culture looks at it as evil and one culture looks at it as a virtue. so that's the problem. muslims are the victim of an evil ideology. [ applause ] thank you.

>> and tonight on c-span2 it's book tv with authors and books on american foreign policy. we begin with a debate on war and the u.s. constitution. book tv tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. and here on c-span3, american history tv with programs on world war i. 100 years after the great war began. we visit the first world war i museum in kansas city. then a history professor looks at how soldiers view their battle experiences. after that, author michael lasser discusses the music of world war i and how patriotic songs contributed to the war effort. american history tv, tonight at 8:00 eastern, on c-span3. tomorrow on washington journal dr. gavin mcgregor-skinner discusses the u.s. response to ebola. then political reporter james hellmann looks at the 2014 elections and key governors

races around the country. and bloomberg news examines how the u.s. trucking industry is addressing highway safety issues. plus your phone calls, facebook comments, and tweets. all on washington journal, live saturday at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. this weekend on the c-span networks, tonight at 10:00 eastern on c-span, a conversation with retired u.s. supreme court justice john paul stevens. on saturday night at 9:00 eastern the founder and former chair of microsoft, bill gates on the ebola virus outbreak in west africa. and sunday evening at 8:00 on q&a the director of the myth sewnian's national museum of african art and tonight at 8:00 on c-span2 authors john yoo and bruce fein talk about war and 9 constitution. saturday night at 10:00 author heather cox richardson on the history of the republican party and live sunday at noon on book tv's in-depth legal affairs

editor in charge at reuters and supreme court biographer. tonight at 8:00 on american history tv on c-span3, historians and authors talk about world war i, 100 years later. and saturday at 5:00 p.m. eastern, former fbi agents on catching the unabomber suspect ted kaczynski. and sunday afternoon on american artifacts at 6:00 p.m. the 100th anniversary of the panama canal. find our television schedule at c-span.org. and let us know what you think about the programs you're watching. call us at 202-626-3400. e-mail us at comment comments @c-span.org or send us a tweet at c-span, #comments. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. earlier this week, candidates for texas governor met for a debate in dallas. republican greg abbott and democrat wendy davis faced off in their final debate. here's a portion of it now.

>> it's incredibly important, whenever we talk to a woman who is a victim of rape or incest that we start with the compassion and support they deserve. that's what i have done as attorney general by providing a record amount of financial support to victims and victims' organizations, supporting women who've been victims of rape and incest. that's what i've done as attorney general by arresting more sexual predators than all attorneys general in the history of the state of texas. but you bring up the issue. you know that i'm pro-life. and i'm catholic. and i want to promote a culture of life that supports both the health and safety of both the mother and child both before and after birth. in texas, let's be clear about the law.

and that is, a woman has five months to make a very difficult decision. >> thank you very much. senator davis? >> senator davis you catapulted into the spotlight on this issue with your filibuster against abortion restrictions. but you recently told the editorial board of the dallas morning news that you might not have filibustered if the legislation only banned abortions after 20 weeks with allowances for rape and incest. what kind of abortion restrictions are you willing to accept? >> i have always believed, brian, that it is for a woman, and a woman guided by her faith and her family and her doctor, to make these very difficult decisions for themselves. i do not believe that the government should intrude in that most personal and private of decision making. greg abbott on the other hand, believes that it is his right to intrude, even when a woman has been the brutal victim of a

rape, a brutal rape, or has been the victim of incest. this should come as no surprise to us, given that mr. abbott's attitudes toward women have revealed themselves in other ways. he pays women in his office less than he pays male assistant attorney generals. he campaigns with a known sexual predator who has bragged about having sex with underage girls. >> what about your -- >> thank you. >> this race leans republican. you can watch the debate and dozens of others any time online at c-span.org. at the annual convention of the islamic society of north america, a panel discussed the future of islam in the u.s. and challenges facing the muslim american community. this is an hour and 20 minutes. >> all right. can everyone hear me?

good. i have nothing interesting to say beyond that. welcome to generation rise. my name is haroon moghul. i am the moderator or the instigator. my job is to get the conversation going. we have a very distinguished panel here. i'm going to try to let each of them speak as much as possible and if the conversation dies down, your questions will be brought up to me and i'll filter them for the most interesting, provocative, funniest and stranges. feel free to throw anything in there to keep them on their toes. is there something you always wanted to know about mansoor, i will make sure to read it out loud. yeah. so. how is everyone doing? good. it took me two hours to get here from the airport which is as long as it took me to fly here. so that is generation rise on an american scale.

the purpose of tonight's conversation is to talk about the issues, dilemmas, opportunities and challenges facing muslim communities going forward. what i'm going to do is start the conversation off by introducing mahdi to my left who many may have seen or heard. he is the political director for huffington post uk, columnist, and head to head on al jazeera english. if you have not seen it you definitely should. he is the biographer of british operation leader ed miliband and has published an electronic book on the financial crisis. in 2012 in the guardian newspaper wrote he it has become a cliche to say young british muslims are alienated estranged and marginalized from the political process doesn't make it any less true. muslims are woefully underrepresented in politicaliy life. the number of muslim members of parliament in the uk for instance stands at 8 out of 506.

that was about two years ago, but what i wanted to ask matthew to start with is, when we are constantly as a community being tagged by events abroad overseas for example most recently the rise of isis, how do we as a community focus on the domestic when there is so much pressure on us to talk about the so-called foreign? >> lovely to be here in detroit. thank you very much for that very kind introduction. lovely to be on the distinguished panel. in answer to your not provocative question at all, i would say what a way to start. i'll start by berating my fellow muslims. no. my view is very clear. i don't think we should force a choice when it comes to discussing issues that matter. what's interesting is we have this three day event, looking at the program, those of you who have looked at your programs. okay. i will start again.

look. i don't think we should have to choose between foreign subjects and domestic subjects. if you look at your programs, you'll see an amazing range of panel events over the next couple of days. there are so many issues we can cover, should cover, have the ability and intellect to cover, have the expertise within our community to cover. i don't buy this false choice that so many in our community, both in the uk where i live in europe and here in north america which as well you know we've got to have this debate about gaza and nothing else or about iraq and nothing else. we've got to go on the media and talk about isis and terrorism and radicalization. look, take it from me, i'm a journalist who happens to be muslim. i can assure you when i started out the only thing people wanted to talk to me about where these issues. not just domestic versus foreign but islamic issues in general. i'm the guy that wrote a biography of the leader of the opposition. why did you write a book about him? he's not going to be prime minister. we'll see next year.

but separately, the first book i was going to write was not going to be a book about islam because it's so easy to get pigeon holed. to take directly your question. i wrote this column in 2012 when george galway was elected as member of parliament and some of you my know george galloway the british mm. and my point was that muslims cannot keep going back to the ballot box and voting only on the basis of foreign policy issues, only on the basis of which war is current right now. that doesn't mean foreign policy is not important, it is. take it from someone like me. you want to talk about palestinians. i spent the last month arguing with various supporters of israel about gaza. i've been on radio shows with the israeli ambassador to the uk. you want to talk about iraq. i've written several columns about isis. iran and iraq, let's go now. you want to talk about wmd, we can refight the 2003 iraq invasion. you can, what's the phrase, you can walk and chew gum at the same time. you can do both. you can also focus on issues at home that matter, issues in our

community that matter. whether it's the high rates of muslims in prison, the number of muslims disproportionately represented among health patients in the uk for example. or issues to do with drugs and sex and all those other issues that the previous session was touching upon here. i don't buy this false division between we must talk about foreign policy because muslims are dying and people who want to talk about domestic politics are self-indulgent, middle class, they don't care about their fellow muslims abroad. they're focusing on things that don't matter when people are dying now. yes, people are dying but that doesn't mean that other issues aren't important. and actually not from a moral perspective but from a self-serving purpose if we focus on issues at home and are a better community at home, more prosperous, more stable, more united, more politically effective community at home we can actually do much more to help on those causes abroad that matter to us. >> thank you.

>> to right we have zahra billoo. many of you have seen her eloquently defending muslim civil rights and civil rights more generally in the united states and abroad. she serves as the executive director of the bay area chapter of c.a.r.e., the council on american islamic relations. which is one of the most notable organizations that we have in the united states. i wanted to ask you the last few years have seen some intense debates and conversations in a lot of muslim communities about where we stand as a country domestically and internationally. sometimes these conversations can become intense and they provoke sharp divisions and disagreements. there is nothing to say we have to agree on where we stand. but how do we deal with the divisions in our community that are inevitably going to keep coming up as these conversations, especially involving muslims, become more and more pointedable more heated?

>> thank you to everyone on the panel and for having this conversation. it's always difficult to talk about disagreements, and then to give us all the stage and hope that we won't do it wrong. we build together over and over. one of the things that my parents always raised me with is you fight more with your siblings than you will fight with anyone in your life. and maybe when you get married you fight a little bit with your spouse. but never the way you fight with your siblings. and you just, you can't rid yourself of your siblings or your parents. they're your family. our community is one family. and one of the things that i remember post-9/11 that we talked about a lot was unity. and unity. and every time there was disagreement people got worried. and they got scared. except we have to realize that unity does not mean uniformity. we are going to disagree. we have to draw our lines in the sand.

for some people it's going to be boycott sanctions. for some people it's going to be gender relations. i'll tell you, personally, i have trouble working with people who disrespect women. i have trouble being in separate spaces. i have trouble not seeing the imam, and so when i'm put in those spaces my personal lines are tested. right? and everyone has those. but i come back over and over. i was raised to go every day of the week and i'm grateful that i still get to do that. i don't always agree. but we are stronger together. one of the things that's easy to do is fall apart. how easy would it be to splinter this group in this room into 15 different conventions? we could probably find more ways to divide us. but the former president of the united states jimmy carter doesn't come speak to a convention of 50 muslims. he comes and he speaks to isna

because we have power when we mobilize together. and so i say, fight, put your opinions out there, work within the organizations, and the institutions to put forward your agenda. but also understand that unity is going to mean more than any divisions that we ever have. if we don't have the discipline to fall in line when it's necessary to fall in line, when it's necessary to mobilize thousands and millions of muslims. when you think about how big this group is, take a second and think actually there are around 7 million muslims in the united states. if you could move 7 million muslims, we could probably fix our foreign policy and our domestic policy. but it takes discipline, teamwork and unity first. >> thank you. i was using the broken mic because i'm very smart. that was a joke. nobody laughed. like that's great. he's really not smart. it's still early, right? you know, this is a long cab

ride. i'm getting nothing here. really terrible. i'm so sorry. i feel really bad. you know, it's bad enough i'm not a doctor. so there is nothing wrong if you are not a doctor. your kids can pay for school themselves, it's true. so on my far right imam mansoor sabree who i believe we met for the first time in west virginia. in west virginia which is not where i expected to meet the resident imam, community activist of the largest african-american muslim community in the united states. he's based in atlanta georgia, area. if you don't know him, you should know him and i wanted to ask you, we have a lot of big conversations. but you're the imam of a very large, very significant, very historic community, what are the issues you see on the ground? what are the conversations you think we should be having up here? >> again, it's an honor to be here on stage with this

distinguished panel and discussing some very heavy issues, big topics. and just to briefly comment on what has been said, i think for me personally and for a segment of the muslim community, it is very difficult or challenging sometimes to speak about international affairs when our concerns are very domestic. i read a report recently done by an isna research group just noting that 36% of the muslim community in america is made up of african-americans, those who converted over in the first and second generation. me personally, i'm a second generation muslim. my parents converted in the late '60s, my mother in the '70s. and it's a large segment of people who are not necessarily over concerned about global issues and the degree in which we have dialogue and conversation. so it's good to have this mix.

for us it becomes staying balanced with engaging and understanding the global position and understanding the muslim world and how it affects us with this shrinking table that we all sit at as human beings. but i always pose the question, when we have this large segment of muslims in america who changed their religion, who converted, we should be asking what decision -- what decision-making process took place? why did they come to the fold about islam, and continue to kind of use that as a way to have meaningful dialogue and conversation as citizens of this country? because as a faith, it's something that really engages all types of people. and the diversity that comes with al islam historically within the formation of the first community in edena we have a replica of that here in america that's profound and unique that's unseen throughout

the world. calling on that strength and allowing for what we're going through as a people to dictate what the top priorities are. i'm an imam. that means that i get abused a lot. used quite a bit. but as imams we put ourselves in that position to be servants to society. what i think about really why so many people those islam as their way from the african-american community in particular it was because islam presented a solution to a problem. and to be leaders in today's society we have to think about it that way. what type of problem is in existence and how can we pose a suitable responsible solution for it. and by default you become the one who is out front, you become the one who is leading. but it's not sitting back and having conversations about it but about being active. a lot of work we do is in

community development and seeing the problems daily, seeing the issues that come through the door from community members who are muslim and those who are neighbors who need assistance. we begin to think about, as a muslim from our source, from the koran, from the traditional prophet mohammed to the law of al islam how do we formulate new ideas and new solutions for current everyday problems. and that, believe me, brings new muslims into the fold. >> and on my left we have maryam amirebrahimi. we shared a cab ride here and i got to hear her speak eloquently and passionately about social justice and what's going on in the united states today. i'm sure everyone has seen and been dismayed, concerned, heart broken about what is happening in ferguson and the larger pattern and trends it speaks to. sometimes it feels to me we don't necessarily see things until they pop up on a certain kind of radar.

things are fine if they are in the background and then they blow up and many people ask ourselves did we really have a problem that big we didn't see. maryam is working towards her bachelors in islamic sciences, so she's a scholar of islam, she's as i said passionate about social justice. she's memorized the koran, the muslim scripture, and so i wanted to ask you, in the work that you do, what are the conversations that we're not having? imam mansoor spoke about how different communities have different attachments to islam. what i'm wondering conversely is what are the things perhaps we're not talking about that could lead to the opposite, to people perhaps drifting away from the community or even from islam itself? >> let me ask all of you a question. raise your hand if you know someone who has dealt with depression in the muslim community? raise your hands.

take a quick look around, see how many hands there. hands down. depression or isolation to the point of actually attempting suicide or cutting or other forms of self-harm, raise your hand. look around. that's a lot of people raising their hands. hands down. how many of you know or have personally experienced racism in the muslim community? look around. hands down. as woman, how many of you have felt like you don't have a space in the muslim community? raise your hand. as men, how many of you feel like you have issues that can't actually be addressed in the muslim community? you can't raise your hand because you can't be addressed. that was a trick question. why did you raise your hand? those are broad issues. in our community we deal with people who leave islam completely and it's not because islam isn't this incredible religion. it's because our communities don't have relevant

conversations about what people are actually going through. some of these issues may start young, may start in a person's home life. as you continue and deal with the type of segregation, the type of sexism, the racism and a lot of the phobias we have in our community, it causes people to feel inadequate as individuals and causes us to feel like we can't be part of a spiritual space that's supposed to help us feel closer to the one who created us. when that connection is lost, it's difficult for to us feel passionate about issues that have to do with humanitarianism or political issues when we feel so broken. one of the things i've seen in the work i've been doing in different communities is people are so in pain because for example a brother told me he's an african-american convert. he's been muslim for almost ten years. he told me black is the wrong color to be in the muslim community. another young person, a high school student came up to me after a lecture and she told me

it was the first time in her life that she felt like god actually loved her. she thought that god hated her her entire life because in her family she's got problems. her mom tells her there is no point in praying because god isn't going to accept it anyway because i'm always upset with you and many young people have told me they've heard that from their parents before. then they go into the mischief and there's no real tangible space there for some people. they go to school and the people who embrace this sister are individuals who are very, very strongly involved with drugs and she got involved with drugs and eventually she attempted suicide. but why did that even happen? because she was trying to fill a void that wasn't filled within our community. one of the things i appreciate about every individual here who do a lot of work for building the community is they follow a particular example and this is something i think we need to keep in mind. a female profit converted to

islam, she migrated to abyssinia then migrated back to medina. this is seven years after the migration of the prophet. she's coming in late. how many of you guys are converts? raise your hand. hi, hi, hi. may god bless every single one of you and every single one of your family members. how many of you came to islam later on in life? okay. and how many of you have ever felt like you're inferior to someone else who is muslim because they've made you feel that way? that's happened to me many times. she comes in seven years. after being in abyssinia. she's visiting the daughter of omar who muslims revere highly. omar walks in and says who is she? oh, she's the one who made the hedra. you know what he told her? he was like we got to medina first. we got here first. so we have more of a right to

the prophet mohammed than you do. in other words we're sunnis, we're the majority of the muslim community, we have more of a right to muslim spaces than you do. we where the hinge an. we have more of a right to muslim spaces than you do. we're arab. you're everything else. we hear these discussions in the community constantly but what did she do? she used her agency of voice. and one thing that all of these individuals are doing and i'm sure many of you are do and this is what they alouded to is that she didn't just sit there and go you're right, i'm a woman, i'm interior, i have nothing to say. she was like by god i swear you're wrong. and i'm not going to eat, i'm not going to drink until i go to the prophet mohammed and tell him what you said. i'm going to tell him like it is. when she told the prophet he didn't say cover your face and leave. even though excuse me i don't mean to say cover your face in an oppressive way. many women choose to do that and may god bless them. but sometimes that is the way that we treat women who have something very important to say

about the dynamics of our community. the prophet instead he told her, omar doesn't have more of a right to me than you nor do his companions. what he told her is that you and your companions migrated twice, and they only migrated once. so the reward is more for them when she used her agency of voice, she not only affected herself, but she empow ired the rest of the community of people who came later. the reason i wanted to focus on this quickly is because we have the collective ability to focus on all these other areas. but we need to make sure that we as a community feel like we can voice the issues that we are dealing with and we feel comfortable having the agency of doing that so we can go into a community like imam mansoor as a convert or somebody who feels like historically we've been oppressed in this country and we can say we have issues that we need to focus on that spans beyond what fills our facebook feeds every few weeks and then

changes when people are dying inside. every single one of us has that ability. >> i wanted to pick up on a very -- spot db on every word i agree with that. i want to pick up on a couple of things. one is i think one of the reasons the behavior you identify and feel free to disagree, i think there is a lot of laziness in our community. not just physically lazy, although we are physically lazy, i include myself in that, but intellectually lazy and we get to this point where we say walking and chewing gum at the same time, this idea that i'm sure many of you are listening right now and you would have heard as i did such a passionate statement about depression, about self-harm. a lot of you might say we can't be everywhere at once. we can't all deal with the experts. i don't have the expertise but i can go protest about something happening abroad. i think we are too comfortable. we are in a comfort zone and one of the reasons for that is people say the middle east is

complicated. i think our mind is not complicated at all. there is an identifiable set of bodies, there's an identifiable set of solutions. we're on the side of the good guys. and therefore it's very easy to take a stance, speak out vocally, join groups, go on protests, and when there is more complicated or complex or nuanced, or slightly less glamorous discussions to be had at home, or protests to take part in our universities or our workplaces, then it's kind of like well i haven't enough time. i went to that protest last week on iraq or gaza or whatever it was. i can't go on this protest about climate change or about housing or education or health care and it really bothers me, because that's laziness. there is no reason why we cannot do one thing. we have plenty of time which we choose to waste and abuse. i took part in a rally against austerity in 2011. a year after the british conservative led government came in and brought in unprecedented spending cuts i took part in a rally. i was on stage at hyde park.

quarter of a million people and i'm not saying muslims are the only people who wear hijab but i would take that as my rough indicator looking at the crowd there were not many muslim faces that i could see from my vantage point at hyde park. the same park where muslims are gathered to protest against the invasion of iraq, to protest against the israeli bombing of gaza, to protest against danish cartoons of the prophet. you draw cartoons muslims will do a protest. but you're about to lose your job or your livelihood. british pakistani and british communities are some of the most deprived communities in the uk, some of the communities hardest hit by government economic policies by austerity by spending cuts and yet where are the muslims on this -- on these struggles? on these battles at home which affect our daily lives and struggles? one last point, just because you were talking about siblings, and about how you never fight with anyone like you do with siblings. here, here. my sister's not watching.

the problem with that analogy is sometimes i look at our community, feel free to disagree, i don't think we do well as a family at all. there's very little evidence for that suggestion. perhaps sections of the community do. but sections certainly don't. and i give the example of those of us who, and those of us on this front, those of you here, who have taken an unpopular stance. who have taken a stance that the majority haven't agreed with. i can only speak for myself but we don't feel like a member of the family when you take that stance. you know, no matter how much credit you have in your bank account, doesn't 3459er how much good work you've done there's a lot of suspicion in our community, there's a lot of lack of trust which is not -- most families, of course do have trust. no matter how bad -- will always still trust them and unfortunately in our community you have this issue now. i give you one example from my own life. let's make myself -- i've written 20, 30, 40 articles columns blogs about israel, about israel's oppression of gaza. i'm accused by people of being obsessed with palestine.

et cetera, et cetera. i write one column about anti-semitism in the muslim community suddenly all the communities are you sold out, you secret zionist, what are you doing for your you're a secret zionist, what are you doing to your career. doesn't matter what you've done previously. you know, you write anything that doesn't follow the party line on israel, you're a secret zionist. you go to white house, you might as well be flying the drone itself that dropped the bomb on pakistani children. this is the level sometimes of the discourse in our community which is one perceived bad deed, even if it's not a bad deed, cancels out everything else and we're suspicious of the motivations of those of us who are on the same journey. yes, the right path is pretty broad and capacious in my view. you can be on that path and heading in the same correction as everyone else but doing your struggle in a different way. you can be a doctor or engineer. you can be a pom politician or

journalist. you can take a more engaged stance. you can take a more disengaged stance. but the idea you can turn to your fellow muslim and say, ah-ha, you're not doing it my way, therefore you're a sellout, therefore you're a failure, therefore you've left the community. that's a huge problem in our community and that's what prevents us from being the family we should be. >> so i'm not personally attached to the example so i don't mind that you attacked it, but i will say families go to counseling, mehdi. so if this isn't where we work it out, and not you and me, but like the community. like we go -- families go to counseling. they have fights. they don't invite people to weddings. they hash it out. they disagree. but they are still family. those are bonds that's can't be broken. so i agree the family isn't there. it's had some rough years. right? like money's difficult. people intermarry. some people are sunni. some people are shia.

some people want to have an iftar at the white house and others of us don't think that's the best idea. but in the end, we're family. if we're not talking about the issues, if we're not fighting about the issues, then they're sort of under the rug, and that's worse. right? >> i agree with you. sorry about the microphone. >> that's okay. >> i agree with that point. but let's not be under any illusions. the people who are here are islam, the people in this crowd and people who paid money to come to this convention, good for all of you. you know. not the same as the community out there. there are many people out there unfortunately, fellow muslim brothers and sisters of ours, who aren't interested in going to counseling. who, you know, just want to say, who just want to be negative, unfortunately, and destructive. and only want to take the simple stances, the easy stances. the black and white stances. the comfortable stances. and i'm not sure, and, you know, if we're going to hear from the audience, i'd love to hear ideas about how we get to those people, how we win over those people. i'm reaching this point maybe because i'm in a particular

space that you're in. in a space i occupy, you have to have a bit of a thick skin when it comes to -- i always thought i would have to have that thick skin to deal with nonmuslims, to deal with opponents, to deal with people who are attacking me for my ideological views being a muslim. in recent years i found actually that thicker skin for the people in my community more, which is actually a depressing realization. >> sure. so the hardest thing for me about wearing hijab growing up and the most questions from the muslim community. so i get it. we have to have thicker skin in our community. the last thing on the family example. we talk about marriage counseling and family counseling, one of the thing wet run into is that many people don't even know that counseling resources exist. so for me, when i landed at the detroit airport and i was really excited that the person at the coffee shop was arab and wanted to talk to me about my flight and all of that, he didn't know what isna is. so he had no idea why i was here. granted, i came in i think a couple of days -- some time

before the convention. but there's also some work that needs to be done about going wide about making sure that those 7 million muslims know about the community, know where their local mosque is, know what resources exist. the thing i wanted to touch on, i think a lot of times we talk about this as talking versus doing. about one protest versus another protest. and i don't know that that works. it's got to be a lifestyle. so looking at -- using myself as an example, i don't know if the airline i flew in on had union staff. and i didn't check to see if the hotel staff at the place i'm staying are union. and i don't know if i tipped as generously as i could have when i had my food. and did i greet everyone with a smile recognizing that i'm an ambassador of islam when i'm out in the street? do i care about what i'm buying? did everyone download the app after the recent gaza attack? did anyone download it? the one that helps you figure ot what you're buying? a few of you. how many of us are actually using it? right?

it's not just, do you go to a protest. one would argue protests are just one method of achieving change, and alone, like any other method, are absolutely ineffective. if that's all we're doing, that's not enough. talking is important, too. one of the things that we said in the bay area when the recent attack happened in gaza was that, it's not enough to share on it facebook or to talk to your family and friends about it or even to hold a town hall about the issues at the mosque. you have to be talking to people at the grocery store, at work, at school, about these issues and other issues. the other thing that i'll say is, it sounds really terrible to say, but there is a self-serving reason to care about the other issues. i could say that we should all agree that our religion calls us to work for justice. and that working for justice is itself an act of worship and that issues of injustice are everywhere. you don't have to fly to palestine or pakistan or even the white house to find those. those are in our own community.

and so there is a religiously motivated reason to work for it. but mehdi said this and it's worth reiterating over and over and over again. that is when we're working on other issues, issues that affect other communities, sometimes not even our own. but i think there's a -- let's be real about what affects us. things like poverty. things like the mortgage crisis. those things affect our community, too. we're just not talking about it because those people can't afford to come to conventions. right? so whether it's an issue that affects me or doesn't, i have a religiously motivated reason to work on it, but i also have a selfish reason. all of the issues that i think i should care about, like palestine, like the drones, like building a mosque, i'm going to be more effective at mobilizing allies for those issues, garnering empathy for those issues if i was there. how many of us expect our neighbors to come to our mosque when we have an open house? a lot of us. if i send you an invitation to an open house at my mosque, i

really want you to come. how many of us are willing to go to the synagogues, to the temples, to the churches, to say we're also here to stand with you. that it was even an issue about whether or not muslims should stand for ferguson is itself telling. right? that that should have been an automatic thing for us to do. >> sure, go ahead. >> very briefly before that point goes so i'm not hogging the mike. i don't have one. very briefly, in the uk there was an interfaith gathering between a local mosque and a synagogue where they had, you know, people came and there were events et cetera. then it stopped. i said to one of the organizers, why has it stopped? and he said because the jews always came to our mosque but none of us would go to the synagogue. that's what we do at interfaith events, unfortunately. we want it all for us, our benefits and our causes. are we there for their causes? absolutely superb point. >> excellent.

i think there's a lot of positive things happening in our community. and a lot of different people involved in different things. but our challenge is we try to capture all of it under the up brel laugh these are -- this is the muslim community or this is the effort of this organization, et cetera. when we have to just live as human beings and get engaged in the things that matter to us. sometimes we live in a society that kind of chops us up into different segments of society, which religion you're part of, what race you're part of, what generation you're part of. we're falling victim to that same type of thinking and not understanding everything the human being does has to be called upon by his interfaith and belief that god has chosen you for this mission, for this purpose, for this idea, and that he's guiding you every day, constantly, regardless of your gender, your race, your generation that you're a part of. get involved where things matter. and that's how we have to kind of look at the life of a human being is that when you get involved in something that matters you're going to make a difference. you should believe in making that difference. ferguson was not a question for me.

it's a civil rights issue. as a nephew issue, or a young brother issue that i see every day. as an average arm it's a nephew issue, a young brother issue, that i see every day. you all don't live in the south of america. it's a little different than in the northern cities, and it's a real challenge. race issues still exist, and they still matter. so where things matter, muslims should be involved. where things matter, muslims should be involved. >> so i had a personal reflection on the flight over, largely because i don't actually fit on planes. so can't really sleep or relax, and i don't actually know how a plane flies if i can't stand up in it. i don't understand physics. that's why i'm here and don't have a real job. but, you know. one thing i was thinking about was here we are again going to war with iraq, and it brought me back as matthew pointed out to 2003.

and it was an interesting time in my life, and i want to, i promise it will all make sense. 2003 i graduated from college. i thought i was going to go to law school. i went to law school. and i was unbelievably miserable. i absolutely detest asked loathed law school. nothing against lawyers, but it was not for me. but in my blinkered view of the world there were only two career options. either you're a doctor, or you're a lawyer. and it sounds ridiculous now, but this is what i honestly thought. and i thought to myself, if i don't become a doctor, and i don't become a lawyer, i'm going to become nothing. >> be an accountant. >> could be an accountant. yes, that's true. i didn't even know that option existed, also as previously said, i can't count either. so that wasn't an option. and i remember feeling very profoundly like a personal failure. and at the same time, i was kind of a street activist. right? please don't look me up on google before 2003, i was also a lot heavier.

doesn't make any sense, but we were organizing these protests against the iraq war and tens of thousands of people were coming out, and it appeared to have made absolutely no difference, right? all those people came onto the streets, and nothing happened. the war went ahead. it was a terrible idea. and it turned out to be even more of a terrible idea. the reason i'm bringing this up is because i want to ask each of how has failure in any respect shaped your life and your career? because i think sometimes we have a discourse in a lot of communities, right, where we talk about achievements and success. and we don't talk about how we deal with when things don't go our way. and how sometimes sort of as we head, when things don't go our way, there are opportunities for us we don't see. and i wish, you know, when i was in that age bracket and point in my life, so to speak, that i had heard that there was perhaps value to not getting what i wanted and to seeing things not work out, because it showed me things about myself i didn't

understand. so i wanted to start with mariam and ask you what got you here? you know, what are the experiences that you wish you could share with people, and this is called generation rise, right? so what do we have to share with people out there? what do we wish they knew about us or knew about themselves? >> i came from a family where many people, many of my family members converted to islam. so when my parents were raising me, islam was -- it was a part of my identity but i didn't connect to that and i didn't want to be that. so it wasn't until later on when i started reading the koran in english translation after a spiritual experience that i actually started wanting to take on being muslim and i wanted to live it. that was so exciting, and i'm a very passionate person. i used to -- i was the president of my student body council. i was involved in local politics. i was so excited about now sharing with everyone how

awesome muslim women are, since now i'm a real muslim woman, because i identify as that. but the more i learned about islam in my super excitement to become a real, understanding muslim, i started doubting my faith because of what i learned about women's rights and roles. and i want to clarify what that means. i had individuals who thought that they knew religion tell me that women shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that, shouldn't be involved with this. me up here? never. the way i speak loudly, no. my personality entirely i thought was a test from god himself, because he was trying to see whether or not i could keep quiet when he's naturally made me this way. and that caused me to really doubt, is this really the religion that i want to be a part of? and i know many women have experienced that as well. one of the things that helped me through that, even though it was very painful, and it took many years to get out of it, was that i started recognizing that the reason i felt this way was

because sometimes in our communities we put people in positions of power who are not educated and not able to be relevant to be there. it's talked about in the introduction, it's a book that talks about the liberation of women in the time of the prophet, peace be upon him. he talks about two of the reasons we have issues in the muslim community that come to women, that didn't exist when in the time of mohammad, peace be upon him. one of them is that we have a misapplication of our textural evidences, and we say women shouldn't do this because of this hadith. when you really look at the hadith, that's not at all what it's supposed to mean. sometimes it's a bad assumption. sometimes a scholar may be a scholar in hadith, but he's not a scholar in another area. a scholar may be a scholar in koran but she's not a scholar in another area. but we take from the wrong people who don't necessarily understand our situation here. so one of the reasons that i

felt the most difficult time period in my life, which was trying to figure out whether or not i really wanted to assert my islamic identity was finding what islam really is, and it is an incredibly empowering, incredibly liberating and incredibly socially just life movement. for me, islam changed my life in the most incredible way, after i went through the pain of thinking that i live what islam really wanted from me. so in one aspect, my experience is in trying to become scholarly caused me so much pain and so much rift in my personality, in my relationships and my religion, but it also helped me understand that islam is relevant. it relates to all of these issues that we're talking about. and that allah loves every single person in this room or the people that he's created. anyone who think about him and people who don't even know they want to think about him. he is not far from us. god is not far from us, but our community makes us feel that god is far from us.

the second thing that really affected me in my life is that in middle school i went to a suburban school in the suburbs. in high school i went to school in the inner city. and i saw the differences in the resources and in the consequences of what happened to a lot of my peers when i look at the tracks of life and the opportunities both were given. so when i went --dy my master's at ucla in social justice education. i focused on critical race studies. for students of color in urban cities. what that basically meant is that on a personal level, my life revolved around understanding what it's like to be in an area that policies of on the second level, on a research level, i'm working with students now, looking at research on policies that affect the way we continue to put communities of color in particular spaces. so, for example, when ferguson happened, i was so angry. yes, at everything that's going

on, but also at our reaction as a muslim community. i cannot believe that we actually had questioned why we should be involved with speaking up about what's going on. and with being allies with our brothers and sisters in ferguson regardless of faith. but somebody who i make -- i ask allah to give him the highest paradi paradise. his name is quinnta. he was somebody who was a freeman who was brought here from africa and enslaved. and he learned -- listening to his life and the experiences that he went through. being ripped from his family and the types of things that he had to go through, being ripped from the family he then made here. this is not one, one person's story. this is the reality of so many of our beautiful brothers and sisters who are brought here, who were taken as free people and enslaved. and that historically affects policies today. this isn't history. this is affecting communities today. so for me, the two biggest things that affected my life, and the things that i'm involved

right now, is one, recognizing how painful it is when islam is taught at the hands of individuals who may be very well intentioned but really unfortunately do not truly understand completely understand the texts and their relevancy in our place and time today. and the second part is being a part of living and loving individuals from different communities, experiencing what it's like to have education on both sides. and then understanding that the people who shaped our country today were individuals now who live on reservation camps, are individuals who live in areas that are historically and systemically oppressed and are individuals who we do not constantly talk about and represent in our own discussions. many of us have felt isolated in our community, and i felt isolated as well, and i continue to feel isolated. and i've memorized the koran. and i'm starting to be a scholar. and i feel isolated. how many other people who have no space can't come to a conference like this because they don't feel like they're

ever going to be welcomed. they don't feel like they have a space where they can be supported. and that's not what the prophet taught. one thing i want to talk about to finish this is that for me, through those processes i learned about individual responsibility because all of this is overwhelming, politics, seeing people die, seeing all those images, it's so overwhelming, and you feel like you can't really take it allczn. but the prophet taught personality responsibility. this is something i love. another prophet, one time riding with him, a woman walked up. and she's like a hottie. so he's checking her out. and the prophet's like, he's noticing that his young bro is checking out this girl. now, in this case, he could have told her, turn around, he's looking at you. he could have told her, leave, go ask some guy you're related to to come ask the question. but what he did is he taught personality responsibility. he turned his cheek. he didn't shame him. he didn't blame him. he didn't shame her, blame her. he just taught him that when he recognizes that there's

something going on internally, just take a moment, take personal responsibility, and do some type of action that you have control over. and for me, i don't have control over everything that's going on, and i'm overwhelmed oftentimes, but then i think about what can i control? i've been in pain because of the things i've mentioned and all of you have been in pain because of other issues. what things can you control in your life? like my dad says, whenever there's a problem, it's not a time to be super sad about, it's a time to get excited. so what things can you do personally to take responsibility over the problems that you have? >> very powerful, profound sister maryam. thank you for that. those are just passionate ideas that i think touch all of us. when i think about just those who have come before, we've all -- we all have stories. we all have family stories. we have community stories.

we have things that really touch us in terms of those who came before and really made the sacrifice for us to be here today. and i would have to say that when i look prophetically at the life of prophet mohammad, i see someone driven to respond to his lord regardless of the conditions or circumstances that would be brought on him. and i see that as she talked about kunta kintae. which is very historic for the african-american community tied to alex halley's history, great author and journalist here in the united states. he traced his family back to him being muslim. and surviving throughout all of the odds to remain faithful, to know that god is still in control, regardless of the condition that you may be in. and i think that's profound. i think about four particular people i'm going to talk about too. one is malcolm x. raise your hand if you know who i'm talking about. you and millions of others

throughout the world know this figure. and they know him because he stood for his principles. he stood for his beliefs. and something very profound that, here in atlanta, one of the secretaries was malcolm's secretary. she's a pioneer. may allah preserve her. may allah bless her. put one day i was talking with her and she shared a story with me. and to be brief with it, i said, houfs malcolm beyond the rostrum? how was he outside of the public face? and she said, he was the most righteous man that i knew. he was a man that was consistent with his principles. when i heard that, i think about the politicians, those who have to be before the microphone, those who have to speak for all, those who have to champion these causes. and are they the same behind closed doors? are they the ones charged with this belief this faith that says that god is watchful at all times, not just when the news

comes on. and are you consistent with your challenge, are you consistent with how you respond to your challenge? so that always touched me to really be a person of balance and judge myself as it relates to very serious issues that come about in the community. usually when i work in interfaith circles i get the question, am i sunni in i get the question, am i shia? as a convert, as an african-american, which group will they place me in at that point. and my response is always, i'm a practical muslim. i'm a muslim. i look at the life that god prescribes for us through the koran, and i look at the life in which god sent as an example, prophet mohammad, and extract those principles that will influence everyone's day and life. so when i think about the muslim community in many instances, i really see a group of people who are culturally tied

to a religion that has no full bearing on culture at all. that we're misinformed. we're not fully educated about the better way that i like to look at prophet mohammed. thinking of the word uswa. uswa is a way. it doesn't look the same. it doesn't have the same characteristics of what type of clothing or what type of language or talk or cultural habits. it has a way of getting to truth, a way of getting to the heart of the matter. a way of seeing the problem, to seeing the solution to a problem. and so the prophet mohamed also touched the life of mohammed ali. raise your hand if you know mohamed ali. you know, i've been to eight different muslim countries, nine actually. and every time i arrive at the airport i get the question of, after they see my passport with

the eagle on it, they say -- they say my name, mansour -- they say, well, where are you really from? and i say, well, i'm from the united states. no, where's your father from? you all know the series of questions. no, where's your father's father from? i say, everyone from the u.s. is from somewhere else if that's what you mean. they say, no, you're muslim. i say, do you know who mohammad ali is? and 100%, everyone i've talked to say, yes, mohammad ali. they do this. i say, well, he's my uncle. they say, oh! you're american muslim. and it clicks instantly, because he's a figure that transcends kind of this understanding of boxers for muslims. and the reality of his story is courage. his greatest fight was with the supreme court. his greatest fight was standing for his beliefs and his religion. mohammad ali, who's still alive,

still fighting the good fight, he has parkinson's, in arizona. continue his message of truth and standing firm out for justice, even when it's against his own self. when you look at his story very closely, he corrections the idea of being the greatest. he says, only god is the greatest. i'm just trying to live up to the potential he placed in me. so these are figures that we can call on and understand that narrative that allah has put in these figures who say that they are muslim and they are standing for the principles of our islam. they have touched my heart. the other two just by mentioning julaleb, when you look at their stories, you really kind of see a passion around absolutely islam being incluesive and measuring people upon character, based upon their character and not on the color of their skin or their social stability.upon r character and not on the color of their skin or their social stability.

but really looking at the heart of the matter of what are you contributing to society and what has allah sent you for. so may allah bless us to keep striving for the best in this life and make sure we receive inshallah the best of the hereafter. >> so i've struggled with this question about failures and challenges a lot. and i don't want to repeat what's been said, but there are two things that are coming to mind for me. now the first is, i try not to see failures as failures. i try to see them as tests from allah and also opportunities. and that's true for whatever the test or opportunity is. even the negative is an opportunity. it's an opportunity to make use of the resources. it's an opportunity to grow stronger. it's an opportunity to learn. and then the second thing that i don't know if it's been said yet is surrounding ourselves with the right people. that is every test, whether it is how do we deal with international issues, how do we deal with depression, how do we

deal with marital problems, any of those things. those are all addressed so well when we're surrounded by the right people. that means families and parents that have open and communicative relationships with their children. that means religious leaders who are qualified to be religious leaders but also who are aware of their limitations. it means organizations that are strong and thriving and funded and resourced. and it means the right spouse and the right friends. because those people will love you and help you no matter what you're going through. and when you fall, and you're struggling, they're going to be there for you. and i think that a lot of times it's easy to say, well, my family's hard on me, or my spouse is difficult, or my friend's this. we control those things. maryam said she focuses on what she controls. i control who i spend time with. i control who i marry. i control where i work and what i do for a living.

i control which protests i go to. that's all in my hands. and so, i guess just those two quick things is the first is see failures and mistakes and challenges as opportunities, as tests from allah, because he's paying attention to us, because he loves us. and then the second is make sure that you are with the right people, because those opportunities very easily can be turned around and be disasters if we're not surrounded by the right people, if we're not in the right places, and if we don't have access to the right resources. >> when i was a kid, i loved to argue a lot. when i was a kid, i say. no, really i liked to argue when i was a kid. and i used to fight a lot. and not just with the siblings but with classmates. with teachers. with anyone. i spent a lot of my time in the corridor.

i don't know what the american system is, you do a lot of detention. the british way is much quicker, you just stand outside the class. i spent a lot of time standing in the corridor having been thrown out of classrooms for answering back, et cetera, et cetera. and my parents spent a lot of time at parent/teacher evenings coming back saying, what the hell is wrong with you? why don't you shut your mouth? and interestingly i now have a career based on running my mouth. allah works in mysterious ways. and you know, i tell people this. i say, as a child i would get in trouble for having arguments, not knowing when to stop. now people pay me to come on television and radio and argue with people. they'll even fly you business class to argue with people. and i think to myself how lucky i am. i have an interesting job. when i go to a gathering, my best friend is a doctor, my cousin is a dentist, we go together and people say how's life, how's your job, nobody's asking them about their jobs. and it's great. blessed by allah.

to come back to haroon's question about failure. personally i've done very well, doing very well, thank you very much. but in terms of what i care about, what i write about, what i campaign about, i'm a total failure. every issue that matters to me is a total failure. nothing i wrote or said stopped the iraq war in 2003. nothing i've done over the past 60 days in terms of arguing, writing pieces, tweeting, going on the radio, debating the israeli ambassador to london, blah, blah, blah, nothing stopped israel from bombing gaza, nothing that the lifted the siege on the people of gaza. i did a debate at oxford union that some of you may have seen. it went viral. 1.6 million people watched it on youtube. didn't stop isis from beheading people or boko haram from abducting girls. it didn't change the world's view of islam or nonmuslims' view of islam. may have done at the margins.

and i remember a friend of mine, my good friend who's the doctor, he once said to me, you know what? if you just changed all your views, your life would be so much more fulfilling. it's so true. you go on these protests against austerity, governments are making cuts everywhere. record cuts. nothing worked. and you asked about failure. that's the first thing i think of in a sense. how do i not go and self-harm. and get depressed when, you know, when you look at what you're fighting for, what you're standing for, what you're campaigning for, and i've stood on countless panels, countless stages, countless conferences. and you see what is the visible change that we're making or not in the community, incrementally, in the world, perhaps less so. you have to ask yourself, what are you learning from that failure? and i think the only thing i'm learning from that failure, and i can only speak for myself, others can speak for themselves. is that really there, you know, it's a cliche, but there is no endpoint to this

journey. what we're doing is the journey. where we're going is not necessarily we're trying to reach some light at the end of the tunnel. it's about every day. it's about the daily struggle. it's about the lifestyle. and it's about keeping doing what you're doing on a daily basis. and if you haven't got the results in this world, perhaps the next world, or perhaps the results will come in a few years' time, and that's what i would take from failure and say, well, you know, it depends how you measure the failure. and not to connect to it your daily principles. just to link back to what you said, people like mohammad ali, when they were giving up their belt and going to prison, they were a failure. he had lost in that fight. the american justice system had won in its own way. no one classes that as a failure today and i'm sure he didn't see it as a failure at the time. so i think that's what i would say about failure. it's cliched, it's obvious, but we have to remind ourselves, it is about sticking to your principles, it is about thinking about the long game rather than the short game, it is about recognizing there's not always going to be a victory -- light

at the end of the tun. haroon also asked me, since it's linked to this, to answer the first audience question? i believe there's many more. not knowing the time. somebody's asked to me, what are three steps we can take together to improve our domestic issues involvement over the next ten years? i love that three steps, ten years. it's very, very organized. someone from a business school i'm guessing, or a law school. not an art student. it's an amazing question. i'm sure there's dozens of steps over dozens of years. i'm sure the panelists can answer if they want. off the top of my head i would say, educate yourself. every islamic conference i go to people say education. i don't just mean get a medical degree or a law degree or a post-graduate degree. i mean, find out what is happening in your societies, in the world around you. beautiful line, i think the best line of the night if you let me say this, let me praise you and say the best line of the night

is you said whatever matters, that's where muslims should be. how do you know what matters unless you are reading newspapers, reading magazines, watching the television screen. going online, going on social media, buying books. when i say reading, a lot of muslims, we do read, we consume media like nobody else. you come to britain, we have 30 islamic channels in various different languages. i'm not talking about consuming things you agree with. i'm talking about reading what other people are saying. what our opponents are saying. what other communities are saying. as jon stewart mill once said, you don't know your own side of the argument until you know the other side of the argument. and i worry in our communities too much, when i'm having conversations with people, the views reflected are reflected of a very narrow, closed mindset from one particular article, one particularly website, one particular source. try to educate yourself as broadly as possible, otherwise you stand no chance. when you're trying to debate these issues. very quickly, number two, i would say reach out. how can you not -- how can you

know what's important on a national or local level if you're only close teared in your house or your school or your community center or your islamic conference. those are all important things to do. but also reach out and find out what is going on beyond your comfort zone. beyond your safe space. how do you know what the important issues are in your localily unless you're reaching out, unless you're reaching with. customer have the common struggles as we're talking about. and the third point i would say, the third argument, the third think i think we really, really need to do is we have to get off our backsides. to come back to the laziness point. there is literally no problem, you know -- you talked about mobilizing 7 million muslims. 7 million, that's a tiny number when you think about what some of our opponents are worried about. about the billions of muslims around the world! we are a big number of people. and the fact that we don't mobilize ourselves -- people

talk about in europe, i don't know if any of you have gone to europe, the far right islamo moab, there's a muslim takeover coming! i said, if only, you wish muslims could take over europe, we can barely take over our own mosque, we can barely take over our own house, it kitchen, we're far too disorganized and lazy. we must mobilize, we must be able to organize, we must be able to do all these things we say but don't do. there's a beautiful paragraph, those of you who haven't read it, the response to professor's outburst, a very interesting response. the penultimate paragraph i think it is he makes the very, very obvious point that in our community we will pick up the phone and ring our friend to complain about what we've seen on tv, about some government decision. we won't pick up the phone and reek our congressman, our senator, our mayor. we'll complain to our imam about something that's happening in the mosque or some religious issue, we won't go and take part

in the mosque or try to elect ourselves to a position to change that from happening. we are back seat drivers and the only way we can ever change any of this is to get into the front seat. >> so there are a lot of questions. and the questions tended to resolve around a number of themes. unfortunately we don't have enough time for all the questions. i thought i would start with a brief anecdote to try to illustrate what i'm trying to get it because there's something underscoring the questions that i think hopefully if we address maybe we can address maybe some of these issues. a friend of mine was recently flying on a plane. all these muslims flying on planes jokes are terrible. and he decided to pray on the plane. and as he was praying, the stewardess came by to ask him something and kind of, you know, nudged him, then saw that he was clearly preoccupied and left. and she came back a few minutes later and she said, i apologize, sir, if i was interrupting you. to which he responded, oh, it's

okay, i was praying. to which she responded, that's okay, you don't have to do that anymore, the planes are really safe. so i thought it was a nice little moment of cultural miscommunication, right? like, what is a prayer? but the reason i say that is some of the questions we're talking about, divides in the the community, facing gender discrimination, facing pressures around career, lifestyle choices. and what i thought i would end with is that all of you are leaders in your fields. all of you have your finger on the pulse of something that i myself do not and others here may not. so i wanted to ask you, what is one positive trend you see in our communities? because we tend to just get bad news, right? like it's always -- every time you see something about islam on the news you kind of have to take a keep brett because it's just going to kind of stink. what is something you've seen, whether it's your day-to-day life, whether it's big-picture politics, when it's economic, cultural, whatever it is. something you can share that you see that is happening right now

that is positive. >> so -- this will make sense. one of the things that you triggered for me earlier was 2003 and the iraq war demonstrations. and i was in college and i remember the feeling of defeat and ineffectiveness. and mehdi i think really touched on it. he said it's the journey, right? that this is the task. and i want to make clear, because i feel like there has been some touching on spirituality within everyone's comments. but similar to the way we talk about doing and talking, we also talk about doing and spirituality sometimes as if they are separate things. so most important in terms of positivity, i think, is that we are starting to talk about it. that we are starting to talk about engagement. just a couple of years ago i remember i was meeting with an administrator at a university where they were having problems around palestine organizing.

because students that were organizing for palestine were being targeted. they were being silenced. there were groups from off campus targeting them. we were going to send this advocacy letter from all the lawyers at the table and one of the lawyers says, so where should we send it? because we want to make sure you see it. and the administrator looked at us and he smiled. he said, look, we get so few letters from your side that we're not going to lose it. we're going to notice when your one letter comes in. because it's not otherwise coming in. and more recently, around all of the organizing with hazah, the positive thing for me has been to see the community taking control. i feel like our generation, our parents' generation, and those that are younger than, us because frankly those of us onstage are getting older, are starting to mobilize. they're raising young kids to go into careers in the media so that they're not just sharing

those articles on facebook. they're calling the editor. they're calling the local elected official. in the bay area where we have some of the most progressive elected officials imaginable in the entire united states. we had only one leaked official who voted against the iron dome missile defense system. and we're working on getting people to make sure that show is thanked, that she is appreciated, that she knows that the muslim community stands by her. but there are also those who voted for it. and they are hearing from the community by the hundreds and by the thousands. and that matters because they're noticing. it is no longer acceptable that our elected officials, that our administrators, that our media personalities say, we don't know where your community is. we don't know what they think. so for me, the positivity has been seeing that mobilization. you'd think i would want to end on a positive note, but i want to say that the concern i have

when i see the mobilization that we all saw this summer, that we were all really excited about and really proud about, was how to we sustain it? how do we make sure that we continue to do it on every issue that matters, but also not just when our facebook friends say that this is what we should do. and so personally what i've established in my life and what i recommend for folks who are looking to make activism a lifestyle, an ingrained part of who they are and what they do, is to take it one day at a time. when someone converts to islam, we tell them what the faraid are and then we work with them to slowly build that up. but those of you that grew up in pakistani households know that we don't pray four and three, we play 17, right? and that's hard. and it takes a really long time. and you don't tell the new

convert, all right, welcome to islam, pray 17 tomorrow. because that's not sustainable. so the same thing is true for our activism. you cannot be at a huzah protest every day. you cannot visit your elected officials every day. and you cannot drop every unjust and inhumane company overnight. so i quit walmart. and that was -- it took some time. because for those that shop at walmart, you know how hard it is to avoid walmart. i quit walmart. and then i said, okay, what's next? nestle. and i'm still working on nestle because little did you know, they known everything. but it's one company at a time. if i drop all of them tomorrow that's going to last a day. in the same way that if we tell someone, pray 17 tomorrow, that's not sustainable. so take your excitement, your energy, everything that you learn this weekend, and make a commitment to make one change. and when you master that change,

when you're so comfortable with it that you don't miss nestle drumsticks, pick up something else. and maybe it's coca-cola or maybe it's h and m or walmart, but do it one step at a time in the same way that after ramadan you add one piece of worship to your life until it's comfortable. then you add the next. >> okay. so, to be brief, you know, we all have a spirit that animates our body. that's regardless of age. if you're alive, you are alive because of the spirit that god has put in you. what i've seen recently, i'm a part of a generation now that's born muslim. and there's this sense within the muslim community that you can inherit fade.

and it's a false idea. so what i've seen, and i'll give it to you in a story. after i graduated high school i went to an all-muslim high school in atlanta, a school that i'm over now. and there was just this void of a generation of believing firml÷ in the idea of fade in god. it was just this acceptance of faith in god. and so you see thatuñ come abou. when you believe faithfully that god is real, then you know he's the all seeing, all knowing, all wise. you have this attention with your relationship with allah that helps govern your actions and behavior. so i say that to say that people went buck wild. they went to the far, far left of life. and they had this two-faced mentality towards the community where they would be before the community as though they were muslim -- we're all experiencing it and know it. they had two faces. one before the community and one

behind closed doors with friends, et cetera. and so i left the united states. i went and studied at the american university of dubai, thinking that i would be in a cultural environment where muslims would be muslim. i was studying international business. we'd be concerned about matters of business world as well as international things but still have this core faith belief globally. and to my shock, some of you all may not be shocked but for me, living and sacrificing to be muslim in america and really kind of standing up for my faith, to be with muslims that were muslims for 10, 15 generations, for a thousand years, to find that they don't make salat was just heartdropping. that they don't make salat. that was heartdropping. maybe you understand. but for me it was devastating. that i've traveled 6,000 miles to be amongst people who don't believe in this religion with sincerity.

and there was about five of us who made the jamasalat. of course in the arab world, friday is off. so this was eye-opening, awakening for me, that there's this void of spirituality in human beings that has to be corrected. there is a problem here. it's not being discussed and it's global. it's not just amongst second-generation muslims in the african-american community or in america who are coming into this "inheritance." but this is a global thing of how the human being has to really take charge of his life and come back to faith. this is a real issue across the world. but i want to just stress that it's a real issue across america. that just because we're physically there doesn't mean that we're present. and we have youth and we have children who are in our midst who aren't being challenged to think for themselves. they're just being required to mimic and act as though they're muslim. and it's unhealthy for their future life. what i've witnessed that is very positive today is this amazing

return of young adults to the masjid. and they're coming back with life experiences that have redirected and changed their perspective to say that, this way of life is perfect for me. and i want to be critically engaged, meaning thinking as i move through the growth in my spirituality, the practice of the religion of al islam, i want to be thinking, i want to be engaged on the highest level so that i can continue to receive the benefits. and i'm seeing it every day. young muslims coming into the masjid and being sincere for the first time about who they are and being open about their faith and their attention to their faith. and i think this is a wonderful occurrence. it is only by god that we become muslim. and we bear witness to that every day. may god guide us also and

protect us always. >> something that gives me so much hope is the fact that muz lips really care. and i mean care about what we've done. so many of us, myself, i'm sure many of you, have done something really messed up before. and just felt like, i really screwed up. i did something that god's going to be really displeased with me because i did this. and then sometimes that drags you to feel so guilty and overwhelmed that it makes you wonder what you relationship is with him. i have been honored to receive questions from so many individuals of different age groups. and every single time their question is, i did this with a guy, i did this with a girl, i've had these doubts in faith, i've done self-harm, i've done drugs, i've been sexually abused, i've x, y, z. over and over and over. and the ramifications of those issues. but over and over, every single perpendicular wants to know, what should i do with my

relationship with allah from here on? how does this affect my relationship with god? and to me the fact that people are driven by guilt is not necessarily a good thing. but it is an indicator that we care. and caring about our relationship with god is the most important care to have. and the fact that our community has it in droves means that there's so much good amongst us. in addition to that, one thing that i think slowly our community is learning is that we can't preach to people in a way that causes them to hate themselves. the boom and gloom chutzpah. i would summarize, the last year probably the best summary that i can give to you of the friday chutes pa that i've been hearing is, y'all suck. and also, hell's real. it's so painful to hear that message when in reality the koran tells us in the 25th chapter that those of us that make big mistakes, there's a verse that talks about huge sins, and it says except for those who repent, who believe,

who do prishs deeds. god will change, he will literally replace their bad deeds with good deeds. explain to us on the day of judgment, a person's going to come and they're going to be really worried about seeing their records because they know they've really, really messed up. when the records are shown to them they're like, did you do this? did you do this? he's like, of course, yes. he can't deny it, he knows he did it, and he's worried about the bigger stuff he's not even seeing. then god out of his incredible mercy tells him, tells his deeds replace those bad deeds with good ones. if a person repents, comes back to god, wants to live a life of pleasing him, even if we mess up over and over and over, just do the process all over again. inshallah all the things we've messed up on will be returned to good deeds. this guilt we feel sometimes we don't know if god has forgiven us, in reality it's us not being able to forgive ourselves. he's already forgiven us.

he already loves us. he loves us so, he's forgiven us and replaced it with good deeds. now we need to forgive ourselves for the things we've con. we need to move forward from that because he already has. the point is one of the most beloved things that i love about our community is one, that we care about our state, and two, that is even though sometimes our preaching has to do with shame, blame, and guilt, i think we're starting to move towards recognizing that we're all human beings. god tells us we're going to mess up. but that the sins of us were to reach to the clouds and we believe in him he'll forgive us without an issue. so because we're starting to go towards that type of discussion i'm very, very excited inshallah about the next generation of our community. >> i didn't realize this was supposed to be youth oriented until i turned up. i can't speak for anyone else on the panel but i'm certainly not a representative of the youth.

no the gray hair, and i'm 35. when i was a kid we played outside. that's how old i am. there were lawns, indeed. just -- so on that note, talking about the future, to take your question about positivity and positiveness, i'm a very negative person, my wife will tell you that the glass is always half empty. but let me be positive. let me say this. what is -- what do you think is the number one -- not number. one of the top criticisms that both muslims and nonmuslims have about the muslim community? i think it's fair to say leadership. i think for years nonmuz lips have said, ah, these muslim communities, they're run by extremists, they're run by conservatives, they're run by people who don't want to integrate. in our community we've all complained about the various uncle g's and others, self-appointed, a phrase used in the muslim community.

self-appointed lead letter are in britain it's a big common criticism that the muslim community lacks leaders, the muslim community has gone down all sorts of dead ends because of bad leadership, we don't have good people leading us, we don't have good people speaking on our behalf. i give this example. after 9/11 i was a researcher for a tv company. fitv, one of the main networks, like nbc here, itv in the uk. go out, your job muslim guy in the office, you job is to get some good muslim leaders to come on and talk about terrorism. people who speak really good english and are really dynamic and really this and that. and i said, they don't exist. where am i supposed to find them? this is britain 2001. if you look at what's happening in the british media now with brush muslims, if you look at what's happening in the united states, i think there are massive signs of positivity. haroon said early where he introduced one of the questions, you're all leaders. i don't lead anything. py leader is my wife. i don't lead anything. i couldn't lead -- i'm the last

person to lead anything. very disorganized. if there's a fire, don't follow me. so let me just say, these three, however, we have an imam, we have civil rights activists from c.a.r.e. we have a scholar and activist here. look at these three people on stage. i go to muslim conference s america. my fifth one of 2014. i am absolutely inspired and energized by the people i meet and sorry if i sound pat tronnizing but especially female leaders who i meet in our community doing amazing things, picking fights with police commissioners to congressmen to foreign governments. and i will say, you know what? i go back to the uk and say, i'm inspired. that's positive. let's stop talking about the cliched example of the bad muslim community leader. let's look at some of the leaders, activists we have now, and say, you know what? we're in a good place right now. thank you. >> thank you very much, everyone, for an amazing panel. your insights, thank you for sticking around through it. please give them another round.

and apologies if we kept you a little bit late. we're trying to be culturally sensitive by being a little off. tonight on c-span2, it's "book tv" with authors and books on american foreign policy. we begin with a debate on war and the u.s. constitution. "book tv" tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. on c-span3, "horn history tv" with programs on world war i 100 years after the great war began. we visit the first world war i museum in kansas city. then a history professor looks at how soldiers view their battle experiences. after that, author michael hasser discusses the music of world war i and how patriotic songs contributed to the war effort.discusses the music of wr i and how patriotic songs contributed to the war effort.l world war i and how patriotic songs contributed to the war effort. tomorrow on "washington journal," dr. gavin mcgregor

skinner discusses the u.s. response to ebola. then political reporter james hole lan looks at elections and key governors races around the country. and how the u.s. trucking industry is addressing highway safety issues. plus your phone calls, facebook comments, and tweets. all on "washington journal" live saturday at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. this weekend on the c-span networks, tonight at 10:00 eastern on c-span a conversation with retired u.s. supreme court justice john paul stevens. on saturday night at 9:00 eastern, the founder and former chair of microsoft, bill gates, on the ebola virus outbreak in west africa. and sunday evening at 8:00 on q "q "q&a," the director of the smithsonian museum of african-american art. john yu and bruce fine talk about war and the constitution. saturday night at 10:00 on "btv

afterwards," author heather cox richardson on the history of the republican party. live sunday at noon on "in depth," legal affairs editor in charge at reuters and supreme court biographer. tonight at 8:00 on "american history tv" on c-span3 historians and authors talk about world war i 100 years later. and saturday at 5:00 p.m. eastern, former fbi agents on catching the unabomber suspect ted kaczynski. and sunday afternoon on p.m., the 100th anniversary of the panama canal. find our television schedule at cspan.org and let us know what you think about the programs you're watching. 202-626-3400. e-mail comments@c-span.org. or tweet us c-span #comments. the middle east institute recently hosted a discussion on the relationship between

religion and diplomacy, particularly as it relates to islam in the middle east. speakers include the deputy assistant secretary of state for conflict and stability operations and senior diplomat thomas pickering. this is an hour and a half. an . >> -- religion and did diplomacy in the middle east. and i would like to issue a special welcome to our c-span viewers this morning.the middle. and i would like to issue a special welcome to our c-span viewers this morning. this is the second series. the first we held a month ago taking up the topic from a religious point of view. and today we take it up from a diplomatic perspective. things have changed regarding religion in state craft in u.s. diplomacy and particularly in the department of state. madeleine albright records in her memoirs the mighty and the

almighty, many practitioners of foreign policy including me have sought to separate religion from world politics to will i be brat logic from beliefs that transcend logic. that attitude contrasts sharply secretary kerry at the launch of the state department's office of faith based initiatives. he admonished, we ignore the global impact of religion at our peril. and told foreign service officers go out and engage religious leaders and faith based communities in our day to day work. at a time when religious violence inflames the middle east, the question of how diplomacy and religion can interact takes on a high operational importance. what is the department of state doing to fulfill secretary

kerry's instructions? what are the scope and limits of cooperation? we are honored this morning to welcome our panelists. first of all, jerry white to my right. jerry is deputy assistant secretary of state in the bureau of conflict and stabilization operations. and i have to say, a leader in la landmine removal. unconventional diplomat. also arsalan suleman, deputy u.s. envoy to the organization of islamic cooperation and it's a tribute on his commitment that he is taking time off from paternity leave after being a father for now one week.

i'd also like to welcome ambassador tomorrow pickering whose diplomatic career includes ambassador ships on almost every continent except i believe antarctica as well as being undersecretary of state for political affairs and u.s. ambassador to the you united nations. jerry will give the general outlines. arsalan will speak next. ambassador pickering will provide commentary at the end. so jerry, the floor is yours. >> thank you and welcome. it's actually a very exciting time to be at the state department working particularly on this issue of the next issues of diplomacy and religion as well as coal plex. i'm with the newest bureau.

and it was launched under secretary clinton as a new bureau to develop as you heard nontraditional ways of engaging on issues of conflict prevention, mitigation and also crisis response. so there is plenty to do, the question is how to pick which battles and how to proceed. one that i think was pregsed for secretary clinton and now secretary kerry was the issue of religion and diplomacy. 2014 to 2015 may become known as the year of religion and conflict in diplomacy because it is front and center on every newspaper. as you're reading it, people are confused what is religious violence? is there such a thing? what is really the source of the underlying conditions for violence? when is religion serving more as kerosene or a match lighting and

accelerating or causing a viral spread of violence. what are we seeing happening in the middle east for example. is this something new or old. so when i first came into the state department nearly three years ago, this was starting to percolate. secretary clinton had started a strategic dialogue on religion and diplomacy, and i was charged with chairing a working group on conflict mitigation. someone gave me a bucket of books and papers and said jerry, you love this stuff, why don't you take it over. and i thought it was interesting. there was a culture ray al bias against taking on religion. it was the third rail you weren't supposed to touch. so there we were with a basket and lots of ideas, people understanding we had to tackle this new issue. so the issue was bias i think in terms of culture because of our establishment clause as you you understand and the perception of separation of church and state and the reality of what that

would mean, most people just wouldn't touch religious engagement. it just was one of those things don't do it. we aren't allowed. or go to the legal office at state department and in a sense get permission to engage. so this was a challenge for world diplomacy when you find out that actually 85% of the world are religious or function out of sets of beliefs and rituals and practices. so not even knowing that language, not being able to engage at that most fundamental level, is a challenge. so the question was how does one really understand the separation of church and state and the establishment clause as it applies to our role in diplomacy and representing the u.s. government abroad. so religious engage tment has become the new hot topic it turns out. the second piece that was a challenge was finding out after thin 9/11 the concept of how to engaging became perhaps instrumental. how do we engage with muslims who hate us or like us.

a vocabulary of extremist was attached to the muddled religious dialogue. so the concept was more utilitarian. there are good partners and bad partners. and somehow we were in the business of judging who on the scale was moderate or extreme or who we could actually engage with. this was another challenge on overcome or an obstacle to healthy dialogue that we had been wrestling with, as well. and the third was basically just the capacity. we found that in fact the foreign service institute had not actually had lots of training of our diplomats in faith-based engagement or religious sensitivities. i think there was an optional class of four days maximum or maybe four hours en route to afghanistan or iraq or wherever you would be stationed next. so looking at that derth of training materials was a challenge because there was a religious literacy inside the u.s. government and diplomatic

class for the most part as well as just this idea of where do you go to in the state department. turns out there were different people working on pieces of this. so secretary kerry came in and actually moved very quickly to launch the first faith-based community initiatives office and assigned a special adviser, senior adviser, sean casey, to help navigate this space. up until this point, there was another issue in terms of who to call. people went to the religious freedom office and that's an important strand, but it's not the only thing. so the white house and the state department have done a complete i would say u-turn or 180 degree shift in the last year in terms of religious engagement and they set up three major lines of effort and three working groups to accompany them. number one is how to partner with religious communities around the world and in the united states on issues related

to health, development and humanitarian assistance. that is one big strand. the second is as i just mentioned religious freedom, human rights and pluralism, how is it protection of minorities and religious groups is in the category of religious freedom that we have been standing for since our founding. and third was the working group that i co-chair related to conflict mitigation. so that's where we stand. there's been a change. there have been new case studies coming forward and we set out to look at new training materials that are now being finished up after a year of work that i think may not be perfect, but may be among the best that are out there in terms of diplomatic training on these particular issues, by as oigs, stereotype, also how to navigate religion in conflict zones. so one thing to keep in mind and perhaps we could discuss is how is it that a religion or religious language can manifest

itself in conflict and how do you engage in different groups that might be in a different phase of their religious formation or for example if a group feels under existential threat, the language they use that may be more exclusivist or fear-based black and white could shift sometimes to a call to violence. but is it going to be violent some some is hate speech going to trigger violence? we're learning how on look at language usage. isn't mean someone expressing themselves in hateful ways will be violent. so our job is to look at that space of violence, not necessary lit space of free speech and religion, but it's important to