title to give the agency the ability to tune -- ability to mandate universal service, like we did with telephones in the 1930's. it could be repositioned to try to create rural broadband. that as the possibility future president or future fcc chairman could say, you know what? we need a universal service >> monday night on "the communicators." president gerald r ford pardoned former president richard nixon. next, john logie and jill wine-banks recall the events up

to the pardon. this was at the gerald r. ford presidential museum. this event is one hour and 10 minutes. [applause] >> thank you, hank. along with our audience here at the beautiful gerald r. ford presidential museum in grand rapids, i would also like to welcome our c-span audience to this event. my passion for this flowed from my understanding of archibald who became a national hero who stood up to richard nixon i demanding secret white house tapes that would prove or nixon's guilt in the watergate cover-up. presidentrviewing ford in 1995, i was struck by his passion in explaining the

reasons for his pardon. i think there are more compelling reasons even now to step back and look at the historical evidence and the perspective that comes with time. program, weay's have a special filmed piece by tom brokaw who covered the events of the pardon. mr. brokaw could not be here today, but he filmed this especially for today's historic gathering. pardoni remember of the was many things. backs a sunday morning, then in washington it was very relaxed. you must remember all that we had been through back then in a city. only months before, spiro agnew had been forced to resign. then we had the supreme court

forceon that would president nixon's resignation. there was goodwill for gerald r. ford, who seemed like a good man. i was at the brunch of housing secretary carla hills. we had just heard the information that former president nixon had been pardoned by president gerald r. like and it was information from outer space. people knocked over tables and fled to their cars, and the phones were ringing off the hook. it was instantly and immediately and unpopular decision. i have always believed president ford was a decent man and had prepared the country in some fashion to ask president nixon in some way to acknowledge his

wrongdoing and to admit how wrong he was. he would not do that. he wanted to put it behind him as quickly as possible. that was part of the gerald r. ford instincts. it served him well as a man and it served him well in the long run as a politician the kids he had no guile, he had no hidden agenda. -- as a politician, because he had no guile, he had no hidden agenda. is how willalysis history treat all of this? it is hard to know. fordought is that gerald will be unsullied by his decision to pardon richard nixon.

history will find him is a very competent caretaker who found himself in the very highest office of the land in the very unenviable circumstances that he was in. he is the only president in , nick's and was wased to resign -- nixon forced to resign. we should keep all of this in mind. what i remember most was that washington in those days, we often woke up in the morning and would have no idea what would happen next. stunning nothing more than to hear the president of the united states was about to pardon the former president of the united states. i am tom brokaw, nbc news, new york. >> we are honored to have with us today, steve afford, the youngest son of resident gerald

r. ford -- president gerald r. ford and first lady betty ford. he is also the chairman of the gerald r. ford presidential foundation. i have had the pleasure to work with steve over the years, and nobody is more committed to preserving the history of the presidency, and he even inherited his dad's winning personality. liz and gelatin, mr. steve ladies and gentlemen mr. steve ford. betas and john and, it is always a pleasure to come back to grand rapids.

he was leader of this screen nation, and it is an honor to come back and be part of this program and to discuss this pardon. i want to thank the national constitution center, the ford foundation, they museum and the library staff here, all of these people who have this great program. dean gormley asked me to come up and give a few recollections from a family point of view of what those days were like 40 years ago and when dad made that historic decision. a lot of thoughts run through my mind. i was just an 18-year-old kid at the time, but i understood the gravity of what was going on. i think if i had to think of one , i thinkat captured me it was that moment that many of us remember. standing there on the south lawn

of the white house as richard nixon climbed up onto that helicopter. i think we all remember him awaiting to his staff, family, and friends on the south lawn of the white house as he said goodbye. the helicopter took off and we were there and the next thing that dad, mom, and the family were going to do was to go into the east room of the white house where dad would be sworn in and mom would hold the bible as dad took the oaths of office. i think it is important to remember the feeling that was out there on the south lawn of the white house. you think about most presidents who come into the office, you have galas and parties and celebrations, but that is not what was going on on that day 40 years ago. there was a huge dark cloud that hung over the white house. there was mistrust because of watergate. dad was going to inherit a

country that was in the middle of the vietnam war. there was a recession, you had inflation and that was about 12% or 14%, there was unemployment, there was a cold war with russia, and the country was nina ripped apart. and this man was going to walk in and put his hand on the bible of office andaths become the president of the united states and he had not been elected by the people. this was a constitutional crisis. i think this sets the tone for what you all are going to talk about here today. dadow dad -- i talked to many times about the parting, and one of the most important things that he ever told me that kind of explains his thinking, not in legal terms, but in ways in way -- a- but way like a father, he said when you are president, you are like

a father. when he was telling me this, i think he was really talking about me at the time. [applause] [laughter] but there is discipline and punishment, and a father has a mercy to give grace and to that child for the betterment of the family. and if the father thinks that consequencest and will rip the family apart, then the father will have the grace to forgive the child. and i think that concept worked into his reasoning into the pardon, and he thought that this country was being ripped apart. he was thinking in terms of long-term, not short turn -- short-term, in terms of healing the nation. i want to leave you with two thoughts before you lead this great panel. i was just looking at this news

clip, and i was thinking that 40 years ago when dad was making a pardon on that sunday afternoon, i have no feeling that he ever thought that he would be invited to the john f. kennedy museum and library 20 years later by centered ted kennedy and caroline kennedy to receive the john f. kennedy award for profiles encourage because of the next and -- profiles in courage because of the nixon pardon. but that is why he got the award. for leadership, and courage, and taking a stand in trying to heal the nation. the last thing that i want to heal -- leave you with is this. there is a statue out fronts of dad, and the original is in the rotunda in washithn, rotunda in washington, d.c.

there is a very powerful quote on it. is bynot by dad, but it the democratic speaker of the house, tip o'neill. and it says, and i am roughly paraphrasing, "god has been very good to america. during the civil war, he said abrahamco, and during watergate, he sent gerald r. f ord, the right man for the right time. " thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you. steve, and thank you for your service through this great presidential foundation which means so much to the country. i would like to now introduce our distinguished panelists who played unique roles and different aspects of this. first, jill wine-banks, who was a member of the watergate

special prosecution force. she was the only female. her group of prosecutors was gearing up to indict and prosecute richard nixon it when news of the pardon came out. gormley --est is can ken gormley, professor of law do quite university -- my other myst is john logie, and other guest who is not here is benton becker. former special counsel to president ford. he was the young lawyer whom president ford personally selected to sent to california to negotiate the pardon the former president richard nixon in 1974. he is the last living person who played a key role in the nixon white house.

on beingr was planning here until a couple of days ago when a serious health issue affected him, so our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. he wanted so much to be here, and he wanted me to help tell his story. you are going to hear directly from him by video in a little it , because i think his story is one that must be preserved. so let's begin with a little background because we have a lot of students here. of 1970 four, richard nixon is literally fighting for his life because of the watergate scandal. during the 1972 reelection campaign, white house operatives burglaryarrested in a in the democratic national committee headquarters in washington. -- that than is implicated now nixon is implicated in covering it up. let's begin with jill wine-banks

, you are the special prosecutor, and among other things, you made history when you questioned richard nixon secretary when you asked her to explain this mysterious missing 18 and a half minute gap on one of his tapes. before thet resignation in august of 1974. is there any doubt that your prosecutors could convict nixon? >> in one word, no. there was no doubt. toas under strict orders speak for only a few minutes on ath subject, and my life is stake if i exceed that, so i'm going to be careful. when president nixon had resigned, we already had compelling evidence of his guilt.

, he accused money the cia of trying to stop the investigation by false claims of national security, so they were trying to get the fbi to drop off, he also encouraged perjury, his staffof many of who committed perjury, so there was a lot of evidence. he could have been indicted for all of those things, he could have been indicted for fraud in connection with his own nation of funds to the vice presidential papers, and then there was people on his enemies list. list ofluded a politicians, government officials, democratic donors, and a lot of reporters, anybody crossed president nixon was on that list, and he was ordering that they be audited and otherwise abused by the irs. and although we had very strong

deanmony of that from john , that would not have been enough to convict him, so we held ourselves to a very high standard. more than any other defendant, we felt that we had to almost be assured that we could convict before we indicted. way beyond a reasonable doubt. we got that in july when the tapes were disclosed by butterfield. nine carefully selected tapes, because we wanted to prove to the courts that it was to prove a crime, and as you heard in the first panel, that was what got the tapes. congress did not receive a response to their subpoenas, because it was not for the purpose of convicting a crime. we got the tapes, we had the march 21 tape, in which john out the conspiracy,

and then we got what we called the smoking gun, the june 23 tape. saying, the president oh, well, we better use the cia to stop the fbi. it was very clear that he was involved from the very beginning in all of the criminal acts of his colleagues and subordinates. but we did not get those tapes without a fight. we had a saturday night massacre in october of 1973, when i think somebody mentioned that he fired archibald cox, but that required that he fired his attorney general because they refused to firecox. cox. had very breathtaking

evidence, there was no question at that time that we knew the committee to reelect the president and the white house are directly involved in the cover-up. just as an aside because we are museum,resident ford during the week prior to this, shortly before he became vice president, my trial colleague and i were at a gala, and the new vice president was there. richard and i discussed, should evidenceim some of the that we have, because he was vigorously defending the president. well no,ecided, because a grand jury secrecy, it would be illegal for us and very inappropriate to share the information. but we did talk to him, and i did get to dance with the vice president. [laughter] ofincidentally, articles

impeachment were drafted by the house judiciary committee and approved in july of 1974. did you plan to indict president nixon while he was still president, or were you still waiting for him to be removed from office? >> planning might be too strong a word, but we were considering indicting the president. still while he was president, we had a discussion about it. returnedof 1974, we indictments and reading tim as a -- reading him as an unindicted co-conspirator. the team,lawyers on which all of us were at the time, were very much in favor of indicting. we felt that that was the appropriate thing. was as that his guilt clear as the colleagues that were being indicted. the special prosecutor that became the special prosecutor

fired, received more mail and telegrams and phone calls than we could possibly handle. people were saying that this was an outrage, people knew that president nixon had to give us the tapes. so that was a very key episode. was veryaworski opposed to indicting the president. he believed and equal justice under the law, which is the role of a prosecutor. he required that we go ahead and indict him. he said that no man was above the law, and therefore he should have been indicted, we argued. we were afraid that the jury him becauseacquit it was unfair to convict the people who worked for him and carry out his orders without indicting him. that, did not get to do

so we did the and indicted co-conspirator, which is actually a very good result, but we did a second step which made it even better, and in retrospect, probably the right that it impeachment was the right process, not indictment. we used a little known tool we gots presentment, how permission to reveal secret grand jury testimony to congress. effect, a roadmap to impeachment. we gave key pieces of evidence in the storyline to hollow the story. i think that was the right thing to do. we had a second discussion about indicting on the day he resigned. which, by the way, we had no advanced knowledge of, although leon jaworski did. when we heard about the parting, we were in the office for perry for the trial, which would be the same month. john dean's wife,

nalled, because john dea was working with us, and she said, did you hear what happened? now we discussed indicting him now that he was a private citizen and no longer had the protection of the presidency. we heard a rumor that there might be a pardon and we had to act fast. while we were discussing whether saidould or could, leon that the indictment could possibly buy into a jury. the publicityntil died down, it would take too long to try the case. although we all volunteered to come back from any life we were hadhe refused and said we

to wait until after the trial started and the jury is sequestered. quickly, after that he was pardoned, which took away the ability to indict. we did investigate whether we could undo the pardon or challenge the party, and we concluded that the president's power to pardon is absolute and there was no way that we could challenge it. so the trial went ahead of the others. >> so that is a good place to stop and talk about the difficult situation that gerald ford was in once he was sworn in as president, because ford had, out of relative obscurity to become vice president when nixon's vice presidents euro agnew, if you remember, pleaded no contest to tax evasion charges. -- vice president spiro agnew,

if you remember, pleaded no contest to tax evasion charges. the data he was taking office, journalists were peppering ford with questions, are you thinking about pardoning your predecessor richard nixon ? forderson advised categorically not to do it. he said if you decide to run for president during your own term in 1976, your chances will be shot to hell if you pardon nixon. ford grew up in very modest the midwest,ere in as you know, he was the adopted wentf a paint salesman. he to college on a football scholarship. he went to yale law school, he was known as an honest straight shooter of the entire time he was serving in the house, and

then the pardon was considered the only solution during the nixon pardon situation. he figured that the country would be dragged through the muck for years more, and also, ford would never be able to own policies because the watergate scandal would be haunting him like a nightmare. so gerald ford takes over the white house with only one day's drior notice, as steve for said, and he was surrounded by primarily nixon loyalists. ron zigler had become his handler. there were only a few people at this moment whom president ford can trust. his longtime friend and law

partner from grand rapids, who is now counsel to the president, and denton becker, another trusted advisor -- benton becker, another trusted advisor. let me share a couple of key pieces of this story that benton know ifould want you to he were able to sit here with us today. benton had been a young lawyer who had worked with then-congressman ford on a ander of hills -- bills, now during the first month in the white house, he becomes part of ford's inner circle. within 24 hours of nixon leaving up the nixon picked phone himself and called his former chief of staff alexander haig, and said to send those tapes out here. ande were 900 reels of tape

hundreds of boxes, and the secret service was worried that the floor was going to collapse. learned of this request, and they said, this is an important question, who owns these boxes and tapes? they understood that these thatined crucial evidence the prosecution force would be engaging them. so they were very wary about letting this material get out of their sight. president ford said not to move any of it until they get the opinion of the attorney general. four days later, that group meets with william saxbe, nixon's fifth attorney general, a notifications that these papers belong to nixon. ande was an interruption,

one person noted that if you send those records and tapes out to california, the only thing that people will remember is ford committed the last act of the watergate cover-up. said you might have heard a pin drop in the room. ford was dead silent, waved off saxbe, and said that those papers and tapes were staying here and the they belonged to the american people. began tohen an animus develop between the ford people and the nixon team. it was only later that ford into thenton becker white house and said that he was thinking about pardoning richard nixon, i need to know the legal ramifications. benton almost fell over.

his job was to find out how to block -- how broad presidential powers were. benton learned that they were extremely broad, but one of the things that he understood, and this is key to the story, he only share this to his closest advisers, there was a case during the 1915 year during the woodrow wilson presidency which involved an effort by woodrow wilson to get a new york newspaper editor to testify, and when he pleaded the fifth, he had a pardon waiting for him. to take theefused pardon, and he said that if he took it, he would look guilty. they took it to the supreme court, and they said that acceptance of a pardon is an admittance of guilt, legally.

white house met with the watergate special , andcutor leon jaworski wanted to kiev president ford was going to grant a pardon. ski wasarned that jawor worried about going forward with prosecuting nixon. he was worried about the over-the-top media circus and he felt it would take a year or more for nixon to get a fair trial, if ever. and my own research confirms worski signaled his approval of the pardon, even though i know that his own staff, including jill, would have been horrified at the time. so now we knows for the first time that there was some additional activity here in grand rapids. , you are called

into a staff meeting shortly after ford becomes president. >> that was the same friday that the tape happened. >> you were given a confidential simon. what was it -- confidential assignment. what was it? interject that this was the rest of the story to use from grand rapids. -- he hadnan likenital polio, just roosevelt did, so he was not and when heto war, ,ame back, they work together jerry and him, and -- i still

call him jerry because i asked him once when i should call him, and he said, call me jerry! i called to talk to her chairman, and i needed some research done over the weekend. i don't want anything in writing. i want answers to one question. the question is, what is the actual scope of the presidential pardon power? he said there are obvious the vicei don't got to presidential counsel when the first happened. he said that they were all leaky sins, and they were worried that if anything came out early, or sivs, and- leaky they were worried that if anything came out early, president ford might be impeached. i had just been a partner of my law firm, so we chewed up that

assignment. what we did after talking for a answer was a scope question. if some really bad guy did some heinous crime and kill people or people or- killed whatever, and that was 80 years ago and he wanted to go home and die, and the president wanted to pardon him, you would say yes. has beenabout if he convicted but he has not been sentenced, can he be pardoned? the answer is yes. to shorten this down, we just cap moving it back, and back, and he said that next and at that point had never been accused officially of anything, partly because he was president

and partly because things were moving so fast, and jill's team was at work, and all other kinds of stuff. so we moved all the way back to what if he has not even been indicted or a accused of a crime, can the president if he wishes to step in and foreclose from proceeding? that was what we did. on saturdaytogether -- no, sunday afternoon, each with our own research, talk to talkedght through it -- then wethrough it, and found that the powers of the president were essentially unlimited. ,o jerry called monday morning and part of this you have to

understand is that phil buchanan was my godfather, grand rapids is very small. one sister,d only and she married a guy who was betty ford's older brother. so we became family. but not really. but you get the point. but there was a connection, and it was wonderful that we could get jerry to come back here, phil i did as mayor, and filled in a lot of these blanks ando how they did things, almost anything that anybody knew in the ford administration went out to california for accor becker even the

left to make a deal. it was a stacked deck when becker went out there. the first thing that ziglar said is theresecretary, will be no statement, no nothing, and we will not do anything about this pardon or say anything about it. he sent to his staff guy, he said, call the airport, we're leaving! going to be on film and tell us that story, and john logie is going to do his own separate program for the library. we are going to come back in a few minutes for you john, but something, atll this point, inside the special prosecution force, is there a suspicion that he may grant a pardon? we have not gotten to a part in

yet. pardon yet. was workingrski with him in consulting with him and that created a great decision in this trust within the office. but it did seem that leon was honestly considering our arguments in favor of the hadctment and as i said, we to act quickly or it would not happen. we really did not have any advanced knowledge. just like everybody else in the country, we heard rumors that it might happen, and we learned when it was too late for us to do anything about it. >> now this relates to what john --ie was charting to tell us was starting to tell us. becker out tosend

california with nixon's private job was to his hammer out a deal on the records and the tapes, and he carried with him a draft by which nixon would give the tapes to the government to hold and still allow him access to them to write his memoirs. supposed tolso explain the legal ramifications that if a pardon was granted and he accepted it, it would constitute a legal admission of guilt. so why would he take this young unknown lawyer to go to california to negotiate the most sensitive and dicey deal in american political history? number 1, 4 to him impeccably, and number two, the washington impeccably,ted him

and number two, the washington press corps have no idea who he was and would not follow him. he never even got to see nixon, it was a total bust. press secretary run ziglar would --nd two hours with next and press secretary ron sigler would spend two hours with nixon and then say he would not like it, and that they would call him, and they would tell him the ford was going to pardon him. becker found a secure phone that evening and spoke with president ford who was extremely angry, and ford said give them one more day, and we are done. this is one of the most romantic and incredible parts of the story, and although decker could becker could not be here, i would like to show

you that in becker himself telling the story in his own words, if we can have that now. before i went into the conference room, i called the colonel, and i told him that i will be leaving at about 10:30 tomorrow morning at california time. that that call would get back to is a color -- would wouldck to the glitter -- ziegler.to [laughter] in letter would be written

the third party, and it would say the white house has suffered a huge problem. my staff has served me very well. when i walked through that door alli won't be here, discussions on a pardon will leave with you here. don't come. don't come for the white house. housecome to the white after richard nixon is convicted. as longasting your time as gerald ford is in the white house. this is his opportunity and he won't accept it now. i was trying to [indiscernible] that, i said let me call

[indiscernible] and with another 30 or 40 minutes, we began to tinker with the resolutions and with , andnder haig's agreement we talked about the culpability i found i acted very poorly. [indiscernible] [indiscernible] is afically, that position position of admission. was informed that he had a right to refuse the

pardon and richard nixon understood the law that accepting the pardon constituted acknowledgment of guilt. president ford would not have it he said to me and when i came back to washington, did he understand it? process,hrough that waswhat i found was he somewhat depressed [indiscernible] on what he wanted and what he did not want to do. we got to the subject of pardons. and therey difficult were nine interviews with him, and he was constantly trying to change the subject and he would

interrupt me in the middle of a sentence, and he would ask me, did you work in my administration? did you ever play football? [laughter] there are more important things to talk about, mr. president. i finally got him to come and to sign, and we got a statement and that heeptable understood. i thanked him and i left. i literally had my hand on the back seat of the vehicle and i was being driven away, when i wasd from ron sigler who running out of the building. mr.t leave, don't leave becker, the president wants to see you again! was, oh no.ction

he's changed his mind! so i went back there. and he kept saying, he wants to see you! he was to see you! you! wants to see smallo into this very room, and richard nixon is wearing a coat and tie during this whole discussion, and he was standing behind a desk when i came in through the door. he said, what i think about this while i talk about this, and he down to a drawer on the lower part of his desk, and pulled out something, a small white box. and he said, i wanted to thank you.

bullies over of least youear, and at were not a bully, and i appreciate that. and that he simply said, there are no more. i had to get this out of my jewelry box. thank you. said, i would like to do , as, and he made a gesture if to say, look at this room. look at this room and how small it is. look at this -- but he was gesturing -- they took it all away from me. and i said to myself, i'm going to get the hell out of here.

[applause] box, -- im for the thanked him for the box, which i later found they can paint cufflinks with the presidential seal. contained cufflinks with the presidential seal. neither of them got much sleep and it was not over yet, at 8:30at the next day in the morning, which was 5:30 --ifornia time, runs a color ziegler called becker and said that he changed his mind and that his staff had behaved poorly.

but he later backed off and there were later no problems. president ford granted the pardon, and benton becker was on the other side of the camera as tom brokaw describes the scene as you saw, it was then hand ammonium in washington. jill, what was the reaction of cash it was then pandemonium in washington. jill, what was the duringn in washington this '\ ? hoping that we could still bring out all of the facts and try the president so there would be no doubt about his guilt. taken away. was

we had done a lot of research and just as john concluded, we concluded that his power had been absolute and there was no way to challenge it. if you want me to go on and talk about our reaction to it, first i want to say that at the time we learned about it, what ever feelings i had were solely as a prosecutor, where our role is to do justice, and equal justice under law. for years had been passed, and i becker outside of pittsburgh, and my opinion had been modified greatly, and i thanked benton for that and the perspective that they bring to this issue, having been there with the president. at how ilook back

felt then as a prosecutor trying to do justice, i can see president ford thinking, and i truly believe, as has been made clear throughout history, no one integrity.ons his he clearly believed that the factors that he needed to consider where the factors that the factors that we needed to consider. ability to a conflict any agenda that he might have to implement law while he was president, and if there was an indictment or trial, it would hamper the presidency. those are very appropriate for the president to consider. thatsure that he believed healing the nation was a very

important outcome and the only way that it could be healed was for him to pardon nixon. but as a prosecutor, i had a different opinion, it is i believe that the truth heals. , youg evidence in a court have a rebuttal and cross examination, and everybody presents their own viewpoints, and that through that trial and dialogue, that would have been a better option. president ford could have pardoned him after the trial when all of the facts were known. although there was this implied admission of guilt through the pardon case, that is not the would admitng he to guilt. he did not admit to his role. the same as at

pleaded guilty or a trial in which he is found guilty. while i understand and admired president ford for what he did, i think a trial would have been just as healing, and i think that we could have gone through with that. law could not be implemented in an evenhanded that benton becker put it all into context and it made me believe that president ford acted to restore the integrity, which he did, to the cy, which was in need of it at the time. and understand that he was trying to avoid sending the

wrong message that politicians were of old -- were above the law. he told me repeatedly when i interviewed him back in 1995, and let me just say a word about the interview. i met president ford in a hotel in new york city, part of my book.n the archibald cox pulled outalked, he his wallet and pulled out a little piece of paper from a supreme court case. that was the case that said acceptance of the pardon is a legal admission of guilt. strongly and it was overlooked by the media and it was very frustrating for him, but he felt that was a key component of his decision. incidentally, that is why he out tonton becker

california, it was like reading him his miranda rights. 1995, to tell you that in there was a program at the at duquesnersity -- that'sity discussion president nixon try to not accept the pardon and he had a fight with his lawyer because he of not want that implication guilt. so president ford felt very strongly that the country had gotten the most important thing xon, it had wanted from ni which was an admission of guilt. it is also important to

underscore, and benton becker would do this if he were here, that there was a strong desire to preserve those records and tapes, something that has been grossly underscored outside of these accounts. sentnk if they had been out to california, they would have gone up in a bonfire, there is no doubt about that. if president ford had refused to back down on negotiating on that point, and some of those records were used incidentally, to indict certain defendants in the trial, and finally, we talk about the idea that nixon could have even gotten a fair trial, so that also weighed heavily on president ford. jill has changed her view somewhat over the years, but

john, what was your view of the party when you conducted a secret research in 1974, and is it the same today? >> fair enough, but i want to begin with another missing piece that has not come out. my godfather and his wife bunny were long-time members of a the people some of in his room and in grand rapids don't even consider it a church. susie and i have been members for 45 years. waveringoint, ford was go-no-go, well, phil called and --little fair, said, littlefaire, and

can you come down? duncan was absolutely solidly behind the pardon, and some of the reasons that were actually , he came back and suitable time and he preached a sermon on it, but i was still mad about the whole damn thing. but not with kennedy on going from 35 to 75. when i was mayor and we got together, he knew that doing that, he had made no decision. he had been a president for days or weeks. did, henew that if he would probably decide the outcome, which, can and i talked to him after the fact, and --

benton and i talked to him after that if, and he thought he had waited two weeks longer, it might not have made it. that profile of courage, i've got a tell you, someone might remember that lloyd made boots from scratch. when i was teaching at annapolis, agnew was a baltimore county executive. he was already taking bribes. he became governor. he kept on doing it. he became vice president. they would come right to the vice president's chambers and pay the bribe to him. the fbi finally caught up with him and said you have two choices. you either resign and we won't

prosecute or we will get you for everything you have done. ford was in congress for 25 years. with that dirty background that had gone on out the side door, they were certain somebody was going to get bombed on. gerry had been there 25 years. they got up. lloyd was making his suits. we said -- they said we understand you make suits for vice president to be ford. that is how pharaoh. -- that is how pharaoh. but he was so clean and oh open and so grand rapids that it is amazing. the second thing is we got paid. he went on to congress and stayed friends with all of us. all this time it

was his job to come home and take on all the work of this project at the now defunct club. i heard lloyd's story by that time. the story was ford paid for our dinner with a personal check. >> i want to say, as i mentioned, i was fortunate enough to interview president ford in 1999 as part of the program i organized at duquesne university. president ford passed away in 2006 at the age of 93, so i thought it would be fitting to show that video today so that we can hear what president for himself had to say. if we could run that.

>> good afternoon. it is an honor to join you in the beautiful ford museum in grand rapids. today is the 25th anniversary of your controversial decision to partner predecessor the white house, present richard -- president richard m. nixon. i have a few questions as we look back on that moment in history. did president ford cut a deal with richard nixon in advance to pardon him, can you answer that question directly, mr. president? was there a deal of any sort? >> i testified before the house committee on judiciary that there was no deal period. i think those were my exact words. i can assure you some 25 years later that there is absolutely no credibility to that allegation.

the truth is i was going to be president without any question of a doubt because president nixon was either going to be impeached and forced to resign or he was going to resign on his own, as he did. so i was going to become president regardless of any comments between him and myself. lookw that you are able to back on your presidency with the benefit of 25 years hindsight, would you pardon richard m nixon again if you had it to do over? >> based on additional observations, testimony, etc. i think today if i had to go through the same process with certainlynce, i would

have executed a pardon on his behalf. there was no doubt when i did it 1974 that i was doing the right thing, regardless of what the press said, regardless of what many americans said. it was absolutely, unequivocally the right thing to do for the country. you had to look at it from that whyt of view to understand i took the action i did. >> did we learn anything more recently from the exhausting and divisive clinton scandal this past year? didn't shed any light on what the nation might have endured in 1974 if president nixon had not been pardoned but rather subject to a full-blown criminal prosecution? >> the clinton difficulties i think illustrate the impeachment very difficult one.

you have to have action by the committees in the house. you have to have house actions, which means a full-blown debate did you have to have a decision by the house of representatives. then the case has to go before the senate. on the actual question of conviction or otherwise. case, if there had by the impeachment vote house committee on judiciary followed by a vote in the house of representatives with all the debate and subsequent action in the senate, as there was in the clinton case, it would have been an atmosphere in the united states that would have precluded the congress and my white house from trying to solve the basic

problems we had at home or internationally with the cold war. >> so you are as comfortable as we sit here today with the decision as you wear when you sat in the oval office 25 years ago today and spoken to the television cameras and granted the pardon? >> no question about it. i am even firmer in my conviction i did the right thing for the country. and i am pleased to see recent peopleave indicated more in america today are agreeing with me than they did 25 years ago. >> that is the benefit of history. thank you very much for sitting down with me to discuss this historic event. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. president. ladies and gentlemen, i think gerald ford did what he thought was right even all the .nformation he had

in this process, he made the single decision that would probably keep him from winning the presidential election in 1976. one story that hits home for me he and one of his closest advisors were sitting in a meeting when ford was granting the pardon. he begged him, can't you at least wait until after the november election? it is going to kill the republicans in the 1974 elections and the damage to you in 1976. he said ford shook his head and said to fight aside to give richard nixon a pardon, it won't have anything to do with politics. were made inions this office over the last five years based upon politics. if i do it, it is because i have decided it is the right thing to do. can you imagine someone saying that today in washington? electionlose the 1976

by a small margin to jimmy carter in with the pardon of richard nixon being a key factor for many voters. one can certainly debate the wisdom and timing of president ford's decision to grant that pardon to his predecessor. but there is a lot more support today for the proposition that however awkwardly executed, the pardon probably was the right thing to do in the end. in fact, as john mentioned, the fact president ford received the profiles in courage award i know meant a lot to him because of all of the years of criticism. i think we can learn from this piece of american history. i say this to all students, too. that the essence of leadership involves making decisions even when they run counter to the prevailing winds of public opinion, even when they run counter to the advice of your

own top advisers. the true test of conscience comes when an individual faces giving up his or her own job or career or political future based upon his or her own internal compass. i think the only way you have the strength of character to do that is to spend one's whole life following a very detailed set of principles in every instance of decision-making. as john said, this man was so squeaky clean in every decision he made. otherwise, when the spotlight of history is on you, it is impossible to stand up and faces enormous political and a but pressure and make tough calls when the time comes. gerald r. ford left his mark as a leader in public servant because -- and we heard this in the first excellent panel -- because he did have a strong internal compass to guide him. he true on that even lonely

times like this when mobiles could help him. without that sort of moral grounding, i don't think he ever could have succeeded in that way. i want to take a moment to say i think everyone in this country owes a debt of gratitude to benton becker because he too stood up under enormous pressure. this world-class politician and negotiator, and did not back down until he got what president ford asked him to a comp was for the good of the nation. i want to end by telling you last week when benton becker learned he had this serious medical situation and could not be here, he called me very upset and he said this is the first time i have failed to honor a commitment to president ford. becker and his wife will be watching this

program on c-span, so i just want to say you did honor your commitment. i would like to ask our audience to show their appreciation or his courage -- for his courage. [applause] anniversaryhe 40th of president ford's pardon of richard nixon as a nation, think the story provides a lesson worth reflecting on for all of us who care about our system of laws and government in the united states. and especially for those in our law schools and universities, those studying history in great residential museums and libraries like this who are going to one day be the next generation of leaders. thanks to our presidents and all of you for joining us for this historic event. [applause]

>> every sunday, you can learn from leading historians on the presidency. to watch any programs or check our schedule, visit www.c-span.org/history. you were watching american history tv --you are watching american history tv on c-span3. dealer admitted in federal court to stealing almost 100 rare maps worth millions of dollars. in this event at the national archives, author michael blanding recounts smiley's career as a dealer and thief and describes the historical significance of the maps he stole from several libraries and universities. this is about an hour.