leave. >> on thursday, thanks giving day, we take in american history tour of the various native american tribes at 10:00 a.m. eastern following washington journal. at 13010 the new groundbreaking with secretaries of state. this thanksgiving week on c-span. for a complete schedule, go to c-span.org. former legal counsel to president ford and former assistant special prosecutor recall the events up to the pardon. this event was hosted by the gerald r. ford presidential museum. president ford's son introduces the discussion. this event is one hour and 10 minutes.

>> thank you, hank. along with our audience here at the beautiful gerald r. ford presidential museum in grand rapids, i would also like to welcome our c-span audience to this event. my passion for this flowed from my understanding of archibald cox, who became a national hero who stood up to richard nixon i demanding secret white house tapes that would prove or disprove nixon's guilt in the watergate cover-up. after interviewing president ford in 1995, i was struck by his passion in explaining the reasons for his pardon. i think there are more compelling reasons even now to step back and look at the historical evidence and the perspective that comes with time. to begin today's program, we

have a special filmed piece by tom brokaw who covered the events of the pardon. mr. brokaw could not be here today, but he filmed this especially for today's historic gathering. >> all i remember of the pardon was many things. it was a sunday morning, back then in washington it was very relaxed. you must remember all that we had been through back then in a city. only months before, spiro agnew had been forced to resign. then we had the supreme court decision that would force president nixon's resignation. there was goodwill for gerald r. ford, who seemed like a good man. i was at the brunch of housing

secretary carla hills. we had just heard the information that former president nixon had been pardoned by president gerald r. ford, and it was like information from outer space. people knocked over tables and fled to their cars, and the phones were ringing off the hook. it was instantly and immediately and unpopular decision. i have always believed president ford was a decent man and had prepared the country in some fashion to ask president nixon in some way to acknowledge his wrongdoing and to admit how wrong he was. he would not do that. he wanted to put it behind him as quickly as possible.

that was part of the gerald r. ford instincts. it served him well as a man and it served him well in the long run as a politician the kids he had no guile, he had no hidden agenda. -- as a politician, because he had no guile, he had no hidden agenda. the final analysis is how will history treat all of this? it is hard to know. my thought is that gerald ford will be unsullied by his decision to pardon richard nixon. history will find him is a very competent caretaker who found himself in the very highest office of the land in the very unenviable circumstances that he was in. richard nixon. he is the only president in

american history, nick's and was forced to resign -- nixon was forced to resign. we should keep all of this in mind. what i remember most was that washington in those days, we often woke up in the morning and would have no idea what would happen next. there was nothing more stunning than to hear the president of the united states was about to pardon the former president of the united states. i am tom brokaw, nbc news, new york. >> we are honored to have with us today, steve afford, the youngest son of resident gerald r. ford -- president gerald r. ford and first lady betty ford. he is also the chairman of the gerald r. ford presidential foundation. i have had the pleasure to work with steve over the years, and

nobody is more committed to preserving the history of the ford presidency, and he even inherited his dad's winning personality. mr. steve ford. it is always a pleasure to come back to grand rapids. dad learned so many great valuees hs he used later in lif. it is an honor to come back and be part of this program and to discuss this pardon. i want to thank the national

constitution center, the ford foundation, they museum and the library staff here, all of these people who have this great program. dean gormley asked me to come up and give a few recollections from a family point of view of what those days were like 40 years ago and when dad made that historic decision. a lot of thoughts run through my mind. i was just an 18-year-old kid at the time, but i understood the gravity of what was going on. i think if i had to think of one moment that captured me, i think it was that moment that many of us remember. standing there on the south lawn of the white house as richard nixon climbed up onto that helicopter. i think we all remember him

waving to his staff, family, and friends on the south lawn of the white house as he said goodbye. the helicopter took off and we were there and the next thing that dad, mom, and the family were going to do was to go into the east room of the white house where dad would be sworn in and mom would hold the bible as dad took the oaths of office. i think it is important to remember the feeling that was out there on the south lawn of the white house. you think about most presidents who come into the office, you have galas and parties and celebrations, but that is not what was going on on that day 40 years ago. there was a huge dark cloud that hung over the white house. there was mistrust because of watergate. dad was going to inherit a country that was in the middle of the vietnam war. there was a recession, you had inflation and that was about 12% or 14%, there was unemployment, there was a cold war with russia, and the country was nina ripped apart.

and this man was going to walk in and put his hand on the bible and take the oaths of office and become the president of the united states and he had not been elected by the people. this was a constitutional crisis. i think this sets the tone for what you all are going to talk about here today. i know dad -- i talked to dad many times about the parting, and one of the most important things that he ever told me that kind of explains his thinking, not in legal terms, but in ways of his for -- but in way -- a way like a father, he said when you are president, you are like a father. when he was telling me this, i think he was really talking about me at the time. but there is discipline and punishment, and a father has a

choice to give grace and mercy to that child for the betterment of the family. and if the father thinks that the punishment and consequences will rip the family apart, then the father will have the grace to forgive the child. and i think that concept worked into his reasoning into the pardon, and he thought that this country was being ripped apart. he was thinking in terms of long-term, not short turn -- short-term, in terms of healing the nation. i want to leave you with two thoughts before you lead this great panel. i was just looking at this news clip, and i was thinking that 40 years ago when dad was making a pardon on that sunday afternoon, i have no feeling that he ever

thought that he would be invited to the john f. kennedy museum and library 20 years later by ted kennedy and caroline kennedy to receive the john f. kennedy award for profiles encourage because of the nixon pardon. but that is why he got the award. for leadership, and courage, and taking a stand in trying to heal the nation. the last thing that i want to heal -- leave you with is this. there is a statue out fronts of dad, and the original is in the rotunda in washington, d.c. there is a very powerful quote on it. it is not by dad, but it is by the democratic speaker of the house, tip o'neill. and it says, and i am roughly paraphrasing, "god has been very good to america.

during the civil war, he said abraham lincoln, and during watergate, he sent gerald r. f ord, the right man for the right time. to heal a nation. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you. thank you, steve, and thank you for your service through this great presidential foundation which means so much to the country. i would like to now introduce our distinguished panelists who played unique roles and different aspects of this. first, jill wine-banks, who was a member of the watergate special prosecution force. she was the only female. her group of prosecutors was gearing up to indict and prosecute richard nixon it when news of the pardon came out.

second john logie, partner of a aominent law firm who played role in president ford's decision. third, i want to give a different sort of introduction. he was the on lawyer -- the who president ford sent to california to negotiate the pardon with president nixon. he was the last living person who played a key role inside the white house. mr. becker was planning on being here until a couple of days ago when a serious health issue affected him, so our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. he wanted so much to be here, and he wanted me to help tell

his story. you are going to hear directly from him by video in a little it , because i think his story is one that must be preserved. so let's begin with a little background because we have a lot of students here. in the summer of 1975, richard nixon is literally fighting for his life because of the watergate scandal. during the 1972 reelection campaign, white house operatives had been arrested in a burglary in the democratic national committee headquarters in washington. now that than is implicated -- now nixon is implicated in covering it up. let's begin with jill wine-banks , you are the special prosecutor, and among other things, you made history when you questioned richard nixon 's personal secretary when you asked her to explain this mysterious missing 18 and a half

minute gap on one of his tapes. this is just before the resignation in august of 1974. is there any doubt that your prosecutors could convict nixon? >> in one word, no. there was no doubt. i was under strict orders to speak for only a few minutes on each subject, and my life is at stake if i exceed that, so i'm going to be careful. when president nixon had resigned, we already had compelling evidence of his guilt. he paid hush money, he accused the cia of trying to stop the investigation by false claims of national security, so they were trying to get the fbi to drop off, he also encouraged perjury,

and notes of many of his staff who committed perjury, so there was a lot of evidence. he could have been indicted for all of those things, he could have been indicted for fraud in connection with his own nation of funds to the vice presidential papers, and then there was people on his enemies list. that included a list of politicians, government officials, democratic donors, and a lot of reporters, anybody who in any way crossed president nixon was on that list, and he was ordering that they be audited and otherwise abused by the irs. and although we had very strong testimony of that from john dean , that would not have been enough to convict him, so we held ourselves to a very high standard. more than any other defendant,

we felt that we had to almost be assured that we could convict before we indicted. way beyond a reasonable doubt. we got that in july when the tapes were disclosed by butterfield. we subpoenaed nine carefully selected tapes, because we wanted to prove to the courts that it was to prove a crime, and as you heard in the first panel, that was what got the tapes. congress did not receive a response to their subpoenas, because it was not for the purpose of convicting a crime. we got the tapes, we had the march 21 tape, in which john dean made out the conspiracy, and then we got what we called the smoking gun, the june 23 tape. that had the president saying, oh, well, we better use the cia

to stop the fbi. it was very clear that he was involved from the very beginning in all of the criminal acts of his colleagues and subordinates. but we did not get those tapes without a fight. we had a saturday night massacre in october of 1973, when i think somebody mentioned that he fired archibald cox, but that required that he fired his attorney general because they refused to firecox. so we had very breathtaking evidence, there was no question at that time that we knew the committee to reelect the president and the white house are directly involved in the cover-up.

just as an aside because we are in the president ford museum, during the week prior to this, shortly before he became vice president, my trial colleague and i were at a gala, and the new vice president was there. richard and i discussed, should we tell him some of the evidence that we have, because he was vigorously defending the president. they we decided, well no, because a grand jury secrecy, it would be illegal for us and very inappropriate to share the information. but we did talk to him, and i did get to dance with the vice president. [laughter] >> incidentally, articles of impeachment were drafted by the house judiciary committee and approved in july of 1974. did you plan to indict president nixon while he was still president, or were you still waiting for him to be removed from office?

>> planning might be too strong a word, but we were considering indicting the president. first, while he was still president, we had a discussion about it. in march of 1974, we returned indictments and reading tim as a -- reading him as an unindicted co-conspirator. the young lawyers on the team, which all of us were at the time, were very much in favor of indicting. we felt that that was the appropriate thing. we felt that his guilt was as clear as the colleagues that were being indicted. the special prosecutor that became the special prosecutor after cox was fired, received more mail and telegrams and phone calls than we could possibly handle. people were saying that this was an outrage, people knew that

president nixon had to give us the tapes. so that was a very key episode. so leon jaworski was very opposed to indicting the president. he believed and equal justice under the law, which is the role of a prosecutor. he required that we go ahead and indict him. he said that no man was above the law, and therefore he should have been indicted, we argued. we were afraid that the jury might acquit him because it was unfair to convict the people who worked for him and carry out his orders without indicting him. but we did not get to do that, so we did the and indicted co-conspirator, which is actually a very good result, but we did a second step which made it even better, and in retrospect, probably the right way that it impeachment was the

right process, not indictment. we used a little known tool known as presentment, how we got permission to reveal secret grand jury testimony to congress. we created, in effect, a roadmap to impeachment. we gave key pieces of evidence in the storyline to hollow the story. i think that was the right thing to do. we had a second discussion about indicting on the day he resigned. which, by the way, we had no advanced knowledge of, although leon jaworski did. when we heard about the parting,

we were in the office for perry for the trial, which would be the same month. maureen dean, john dean's wife, called, because john dean was working with us, and she said, did you hear what happened? now we discussed indicting him now that he was a private citizen and no longer had the protection of the presidency. we heard a rumor that there might be a pardon and we had to act fast. while we were discussing whether we should or could, leon said that the indictment could possibly buy into a jury. if we waited until the publicity died down, it would take too long to try the case. although we all volunteered to come back from any life we were in, he refused and said we had to wait until after the trial started and the jury is sequestered. of course, very quickly, after

that he was pardoned, which took away the ability to indict. we did investigate whether we could undo the pardon or challenge the party, and we concluded that the president's power to pardon is absolute and there was no way that we could challenge it. so the trial went ahead of the others. >> so that is a good place to stop and talk about the difficult situation that gerald ford was in once he was sworn in as president, because ford had, come out of relative obscurity to become vice president when nixon's vice presidents euro -- spiro agnew, if you remember, pleaded no contest to tax evasion charges.

journalists were peppering ford with questions, are you thinking about pardoning your predecessor richard nixon ? one person advised ford categorically not to do it. he said if you decide to run for president during your own term in 1976, your chances will be shot to hell if you pardon nixon. ford grew up in very modest origins out here in the midwest, as you know, he was the adopted son of a paint salesman. he went to college on a football scholarship. he went to yale law school, he was known as an honest straight shooter of the entire time he was serving in the house, and then the pardon was considered the only solution during the nixon pardon situation. he figured that the country would be dragged through the muck for years more, and also, ford would never be able to

initiate his own policies because the watergate scandal would be haunting him like a nightmare. so gerald ford takes over the white house with only one day's prior notice, as steve ford said, and he was surrounded by primarily nixon loyalists. ron zigler had become his handler. there were only a few people at this moment whom president ford can trust. his longtime friend and law partner from grand rapids, who is now counsel to the president, and denton becker, another trusted advisor -- benton becker, another trusted advisor. let me share a couple of key

pieces of this story that benton becker would want you to know if he were able to sit here with us today. benton had been a young lawyer who had worked with then-congressman ford on a number of bills, and now during the first month in the white house, he becomes part of ford's inner circle. within 24 hours of nixon leaving office, nixon picked up the phone himself and called his former chief of staff alexander haig, and said to send those tapes out here. there were 900 reels of tape and hundreds of boxes, and the secret service was worried that the floor was going to collapse. ford aides learned of this request, and they said, this is an important question, who owns

these boxes and tapes? they understood that these contained crucial evidence that the prosecution force would be engaging them. so they were very wary about letting this material get out of their sight. president ford said not to move any of it until they get the opinion of the attorney general. four days later, that group meets with william saxbe, nixon's fifth attorney general, and saxbe issues a notification that these papers belong to nixon. there was an interruption, and one person noted that if you send those records and tapes out to california, the only thing that people will remember is that jerry ford committed the

last act of the watergate cover-up. becker said you might have heard a pin drop in the room. ford was dead silent, waved off saxbe, and said that those papers and tapes were staying here and the they belonged to the american people. that is when an animus began to develop between the ford people and the nixon team. it was only later that ford called benton becker into the white house and said that he was thinking about pardoning richard nixon, i need to know the legal ramifications. benton almost fell over. his job was to find out how to how broad presidential powers were. what becker discovered was that

they were extremely broad, but one of the things that he understood, and this is key to the story, he only share this to his closest advisers, there was a case during the 1915 year during the woodrow wilson presidency which involved an effort by woodrow wilson to get a new york newspaper editor to testify, and newspaper editor to testify, and when he pleaded the fifth, he had a pardon waiting for him. the editor refused to take the pardon, and he said that if he took it, he would look guilty. they took it to the supreme court, and they said that acceptance of a pardon is an admittance of guilt, legally. the presidential white house met with the watergate special prosecutor leon jaworski, and wanted to kiev president ford

was going to grant a pardon. they learned that jaworski was worried about going forward with prosecuting nixon. he was worried about the over-the-top media circus and he felt it would take a year or more for nixon to get a fair trial, if ever. and my own research confirms that jaworski signaled his approval of the pardon, even though i know that his own staff, including jill, would have been horrified at the time. so now we knows for the first time that there was some additional activity here in grand rapids. so john logie, you are called into a staff meeting shortly after ford becomes president. >> that was the same friday that the tape happened. >> you were given a confidential

assignment. what was it -- confidential assignment. what was it? >> i have to interject that this was the rest of the story to use from grand rapids. phil buchanan -- he had congenital polio, just like roosevelt did, so he was not going to go to war, and when he ford, came back, they work together, jerry and him, and -- i still call him jerry because i asked him once when i should call him, and he said, call me jerry! anyway, i called to talk to her chairman, and i needed some research done over the weekend.

i don't want anything in writing. i want answers to one question. the question is, what is the actual scope of the presidential pardon power? he said there are obvious reasons, i don't got to the vice presidential counsel when the first happened. he said that they were all leaky sins, and they were worried that if anything came out early, or do might -- leaky sivs, and they were worried that if anything came out early, president ford might be impeached. i had just been a partner of my law firm, so we chewed up that assignment. what we did after talking for a while, the answer was a scope question.

if some really bad guy did some heinous crime and kill people or whatever -- killed people or whatever, and that was 80 years ago and he wanted to go home and die, and the president wanted to pardon him, you would say yes. but what about if he has been convicted but he has not been sentenced, can he be pardoned? the answer is yes. to shorten this down, we just cap moving it back, and back, and he said that next and at that point had never been accused officially of anything, partly because he was president and partly because things were moving so fast, and jill's team was at work, and all other kinds of stuff. so we moved all the way back to what if he has not even been indicted or a accused of a crime, can the president if he

wishes to step in and foreclose that from ever from proceeding? that was what we did. we got back together on saturday -- no, sunday afternoon, each with our own research, talk to her weight through it -- talked our way through it, and then we found that the powers of the president were essentially unlimited. so jerry called monday morning, and part of this you have to understand is that phil buchanan was my godfather, grand rapids is very small. my father had only one sister, and she married a guy who was

betty ford's older brother. so we became family. but not really. but you get the point. but there was a connection, and it was wonderful that we could get jerry to come back here, which i did as mayor, and phil filled in a lot of these blanks as to how they did things, and almost anything that anybody knew in the ford administration went out to california for accor evenly -- before becker even the left to make a deal. it was a stacked deck when becker went out there. the first thing that ziglar said as press secretary, is there

will be no statement, no nothing, and we will not do anything about this pardon or say anything about it. he sent to his staff guy, he said, call the airport, we're leaving! >> becker is going to be on film and tell us that story, and john logie is going to do his own separate program for the library. we are going to come back in a few minutes for you john, but libby asked jill something, at this point, inside the special prosecution force, is there a suspicion that he may grant a pardon? we have not gotten to a part in yet. >> as -- a pardon yet.

there were rumors the president pardon. just like everybody else in the country, we heard rumors that it might happen, and we learned when it was too late for us to do anything about it. >> now this relates to what john logie was charting to tell us -- was starting to tell us. he decides to send becker out to california with nixon's private lawyer, and his job was to hammer out a deal on the records and the tapes, and he carried with him a draft by which nixon would give the tapes to the

government to hold and still allow him access to them to write his memoirs. becker was also supposed to explain the legal ramifications that if a pardon was granted and he accepted it, it would constitute a legal admission of guilt. so why would he take this young unknown lawyer to go to california to negotiate the most sensitive and dicey deal in american political history? number 1, 4 to him impeccably, and number two, the washington -- ford trusted him impeccably, and number two, the washington press corps have no idea who he was and would not follow him. he never even got to see nixon, it was a total bust. press secretary run ziglar would

spend two hours with next and -- press secretary ron sigler would spend two hours with nixon and then say he would not like it, and that they would call him, and they would tell him the ford was going to pardon him. becker found a secure phone that evening and spoke with president ford who was extremely angry, and ford said give them one more day, and we are done. this is one of the most romantic and incredible parts of the story, and although decker could not be here, -- becker could not be here, i would like to show you that in becker himself telling the story in his own words, if we can have that now.

>> before i went into the conference room, i called the colonel, and i told him that i will be leaving at about 10:30 tomorrow morning at california time. but i knew that that call would get back to is a color -- would get back to the glitter -- would get back to ziegler. [laughter] the letter would be written in the third party, and it would say the white house has suffered a huge problem. my staff has served me very well. when i walked through that door and i won't be here, all

discussions on a pardon will leave with you here. don't come. don't come for the white house. don't come to the white house after richard nixon is convicted. you're wasting your time as long as gerald ford is in the white house. this is his opportunity and he won't accept it now. i was trying to [indiscernible] with that, i said let me call [indiscernible] and with another 30 or 40 minutes, we began to tinker with

the resolutions and with alexander haig's agreement, and we talked about the culpability of nixon, and i found i acted very poorly. i was obligated [indiscernible] to personally advise ricard nixon, specifically, that position is a position of admission. richard nixon was informed that he had a right to refuse the pardon and richard nixon understood the law that accepting the pardon constituted acknowledgment of guilt.

president ford would not have it any other way, and he said to me when i came back to washington, did he understand it? we went through that process, and what i found was he was somewhat depressed [indiscernible] on what he wanted and what he did not want to do. we got to the subject of pardons. it was very difficult and there were nine interviews with him, and he was constantly trying to change the subject and he would interrupt me in the middle of a sentence, and he would ask me, did you work in my administration? did you ever play football? [laughter]

there are more important things to talk about, mr. president. i finally got him to come and to sign, and we got a statement that was acceptable and that he understood. i thanked him and i left. i literally had my hand on the back seat of the vehicle and i was being driven away, when i heard from ron sigler who was running out of the building. don't leave, don't leave mr. becker, the president wants to see you again! my first reaction was, oh no. he's changed his mind! so i went back there. and he kept saying, he wants to see you! he was to see you! -- he wants to see you!

so i go into this very small room, and richard nixon is wearing a coat and tie during this whole discussion, and he was standing behind a desk when i came in through the door. he said, what i think about this while i talk about this, and he put his hand down to a drawer on the lower part of his desk, and pulled out something, a small white box. and he said, i wanted to thank you. we have a lot of bullies over the past year, and at least you were not a bully, and i appreciate that. and that he simply said, there

are no more. i had to get this out of my jewelry box. thank you. and he said, i would like to do more, and he made a gesture, as if to say, look at this room. look at this room and how small it is. and he said, look at this -- but he was gesturing -- they took it all away from me. and i said to myself, i'm going to get the hell out of here. [applause] i think him for the box, -- i thanked him for the box, which i later found they can paint

cufflinks with the presidential seal. -- they contained cufflinks with the presidential seal. >> neither of them got much sleep and it was not over yet, because at the next day at 8:30 in the morning, which was 5:30 california time, runs a color -- ron ziegler called becker and said that he changed his mind and that his staff had behaved poorly. but he later backed off and there were later no problems. president ford granted the pardon, and benton becker was on the other side of the camera

watching, and as tom brokaw describes the scene as you saw, it was then hand ammonium in washington. jill, what was the reaction of cash it was then pandemonium in washington. chill, -- jill, what was the reaction in washington during this ? >> we were hoping that we could still bring out all of the facts and try the president so there would be no doubt about his guilt. that ability was taken away. we had done a lot of research and just as john concluded, we concluded that his power had been absolute and there was no way to challenge it. if you want me to go on and talk

about our reaction to it, first i want to say that at the time we learned about it, what ever feelings i had were solely as a prosecutor, where our role is to do justice, and equal justice under law. four years had been passed, and i met benton becker outside of pittsburgh, and my opinion had been modified greatly, and i thanked benton for that and the perspective that they bring to this issue, having been there with the president. but if i look back at how i felt then as a prosecutor trying to do justice, i can see president ford thinking, and i truly believe, as has been made

clear throughout history, no one ever questions his integrity. he clearly believed that the factors that he needed to consider where the factors that we -- were the factors that we needed to consider. his ability to a accomplish any agenda that he might have to implement law while he was president, and if there was an indictment or trial, it would hamper the presidency. those are very appropriate for the president to consider. i am sure that he believed that healing the nation was a very important outcome and the only way that it could be healed was for him to pardon nixon. but as a prosecutor, i had a different opinion, it is i believe that the truth heals.

having evidence in a court, you have a rebuttal and cross examination, and everybody presents their own viewpoints, and that through that trial and dialogue, that would have been a better option. president ford could have pardoned him after the trial when all of the facts were known. although there was this implied admission of guilt through the pardon case, that is not the same as saying he would admit to guilt. he did not admit to his role. it is still not the same as a pleaded guilty or a trial in which he is found guilty. while i understand and admired president ford for what he did, i think a trial would have been just as healing, and i think that we could have gone through with that.

if the law could not be implemented in an evenhanded way, i think that benton becker put it all into context and it made me believe that president ford acted to restore the integrity, which he did, to the presidency, which was in need of it at the time. >> and understand that he was trying to avoid sending the wrong message that politicians were of old -- were above the law. he told me repeatedly when i interviewed him back in 1995, and let me just say a word about

the interview. i met president ford in a hotel in new york city, part of my work on the archibald cox book. and as we talked, he pulled out his wallet and pulled out a little piece of paper from a supreme court case. that was the case that said acceptance of the pardon is a legal admission of guilt. he felt that so strongly and it was overlooked by the media and it was very frustrating for him, but he felt that was a key component of his decision. incidentally, that is why he sent benton becker out to california, it was like reading him his miranda rights. i want to tell you that in 1995, there was a program at the

quaint university -- at duquesne university discussion that's president nixon try to not accept the pardon and he had a fight with his lawyer because he did not want that implication of guilt. so president ford felt very strongly that the country had gotten the most important thing that it had wanted from nixon, which was an admission of guilt. it is also important to underscore, and benton becker would do this if he were here, that there was a strong desire to preserve those records and tapes, something that has been grossly underscored outside of these accounts.

i think if they had been sent out to california, they would have gone up in a bonfire, there is no doubt about that. if president ford had refused to back down on negotiating on that point, and some of those records were used incidentally, to indict certain defendants in the trial, and finally, we talk about the idea that nixon could have even gotten a fair trial, so that also weighed heavily on president ford. jill has changed her view somewhat over the years, but john, what was your view of the pardon when you conducted a secret research in 1974, and is it the same today? >> fair enough, but i want to

begin with another missing piece that has not come out. my godfather and his wife bunny were long-time members of a church, and some of the people in his room and in grand rapids don't even consider it a church. susie and i have been members for 45 years. at some point, ford was wavering , go-no-go, well, phil called duncan little fair, and -- duncan littlefaire, and said, can you come down? duncan was absolutely solidly behind the pardon, and some of

the reasons that were actually used, he came back and suitable time and he preached a sermon on it, but i was still mad about the whole damn thing. but not with kennedy on going from 35 to 75. when i was mayor and we got together, he knew that doing that, he had made no decision. he had been a president for days or weeks. but he knew that if he did, he would probably decide the outcome, which, can and i talked to him after the fact, and -- benton and i talked to him after the fact, and he thought that if he had waited two weeks longer, it might not have made it.

that profile of courage, i've got a tell you, someone might remember that lloyd made boots from scratch. remember, agnew when i was teaching at annapolis, agnew was a baltimore county executive. he was already taking bribes. he became governor. he kept on doing it. he became vice president. they would come right to the vice president's chambers and pay the bribe to him. the fbi finally caught up with him and said you have two choices. you either resign and we won't prosecute or we will get you for everything you have done. ford was in congress for 25 years. with that dirty background that had gone on out the side door, they were certain somebody was going to get bombed on.

gerry had been there 25 years. they got up. lloyd was making his suits. they said we understand you make suits for vice president to be ford. he said yeah, i get that. that's how thorough. i got within of my partners, age group in here, i would not have to withstood that kind of a search, but he was so clean and so wholesome and so grand rapids that it's just amazing. second thing is we got paid. go to congress and he was detailed after all this time with a job to come home and take all of us that worked on this club.t to dinner at the

i heard lloyd's story by that time, and the story was that ford paid for it. our dinner, with a personal check. that was our pay. >> yeah, and i want to just say as i mentioned that i was fortunate enough to interview president ford in 1999 as part of that program i organized at the university, and president ford as you know passed away in 2006 at the age of 93, so i thought it would be fitting to show that video today so that we can hear what president ford himself has to say about the ardon, if we could run that. >> good afternoon president ford, my name is professor ken gormly and it's an honor to join you in the beautiful museum here in grand rapids. as you know today is the 25th

anniversary of your controversial decision to pardon your predecessor in the white house, president richard nixon. i have just a few questions as we look back on that event in history. the single issue that seemed to dwarf all others in the eyes of the american public after the pardon was did president ford cut a deal with richard nixon in advance to pardon him? can you answer that question directly mr. president? was there a deal of any sort? > i testified before the house commit that there was no deal period. i think those were my exact words. and i can assure you some 25 years later that there is absolutely no credibility to that allegation. the truth is i was going to be president without any question of a doubt because president xon was either going to be

impeached and forced to resign or he was going to resign on his own as he did. so, i was going to become president period, regardless of any comments between him and myself. >> now that you're able to look back on your presidency with the benefit of 25 years hindsight, i ask you this simple question, would you pardon richard m. nixon again if you had to do it again over? >> based on some additional observations, testimony, et cetera, i think today if i had to go through the same process with more evidence, i would certainly have executed a pardon on his behalf. there was no doubt when i did it back in september of 1974 that i was doing the right thing

regardless of what the press said, regardless of what many americans said. it was absolutely the right thing to do for the country. and you had to look at it from that point of view to understand why i took the action that i did. >> and did we learn anything more recently from the exhausting and divicive clinton scandal this past year. did it shed any light on what the nation might have endured back in 1974 if president nixon had not been partnered but rather subject to a full blown criminal prosecution? >> the clinton difficulties i think illustrate that the impeachment process is a very, very difficult one. you have to have action by the committees and the house. you have to have house action, which means full blown debate.

you have to have a decision by the house of representatives, and then the case has to go before the united states senate on the actual question of conviction or otherwise. now, in the nixon case, if there had been an impeachment vote by judiciary followed by a vote in the house of representatives with all the debate, and then subsequent action in the senate as there was in the clinton case, it would have been a atmosphere in the united states that would have precluded the congress and my white house from trying to solve the basic problems we had at home, or internationally with the cold war. >> so you're as comfortable as we sit here today with the decision as when you sat in the

oval office 25 years ago today and spoke into the television cameras and granted the pardon? >> no question about it. i'm even firmer in my conviction that i did the right thing for the country. and i'm pleased to see that recent polls have indicated that more and more people in america today are agreeing with me than they did 25 years ago. >> that's the benefit of history isn't it? >> right. >> well, thank you very much for sitting down with me today to discuss this historic event. >> thank you, thank you very much. >> thank you mr. president. >> so ladies and gentlemen, i think that gerald ford did what he thought was right given all the information he had, and in the process he made the single decision that would probably keep him from winning the presidential election in 1976. and one story that really hits home for me was that bob

hartman, one of his closest advisors and president ford were sitting in a meeting when ford was weighing the pardon and hartman begged him, can't you at least wait until after the november elections. it's going to kill the republicans in the 197 h elections and do damage to you in 1976. and he said that ford shook his head and he said if i decide to give richard nixon a pardon, it won't have anything to do with politics. too many decisions were made in this office over the last five years based upon politics, if i do it, it's because i've decided it's the right thing to do. can you imagine someone saying that today? washington? and of course, ford did lose the 1976 election, we heard by a small margin to jimmy carter with the pardon of richard nixon being a key factor for many voters. so one can certainly debate the wisdom and the timing of

president ford's decision to grant that pardon to his predecessor, but there is a lot more support today for the proposition that however awkwardly executed the pardon probably was the right thing to o in the end, and in fact as was mentioned, the fact that president ford received that profiles encourage award i know meant a lot to him because of all of the years of criticism. and i think that we can learn from this piece of american history, and i say this to all students too, that the essence of leadership involves making decisions even when they run counter to the prevailing winds of public opinion. even when they run counter to the advice of your own top advicors. the truth -- the true test of conscience comes when a true individual faces giving up his own job, career or political

future based upon his or her own political compass. i think incidentally the only way you have the strength of character to do that is to spend one's whole life following a very detailed set of principles. in every instance of decision making. as john said, this man was so squeaky clean, every decision you make, otherwise when the spotlight of history is on you it's impossible to stand up and face this enormous political and public pressure and make tough calls when the time comes. gerald r. ford in my view left his mark as a leader and public servant because, and we heard this in the first excellent panel too, because he did have a strong internal compass to guide him, and he drew on that, even in lonely times like this. when nobody else could help him. and without that sort of moral grounding, i don't think he ever could have succeeded in that

way. and i also want to take a moment to say that i think everyone in this country owes a debt to gratitude to beten becker as well because he too stood up under enormous pressure, think about it, to this world class politician and negotiater, richard nixon, and didn't back down until he got what president ford had asked him to accomplish for the good of the nation. i just want to end by telling you that last week when beten becker learned that he had this serious medical situation and couldn't be here, he called me very upset and he said this is the first time i've failed to honor a commitment to president ford. and i know that benton becker and his wife joanne will be watching this program on c-span so i just want to say you did honor your commitment, beten, and i'd like to ask our audience to show their appreciation for him. [applause]

>> as we mark the 409 anniversary of the pardon, i think the story provides a lesson worth reflecting on for all of us who care about our system of laws and government in the united states, and especially for those in our law schools and our universities, those studying history and great presidential mow seems and library like this who are one day going to be the next generation of leaders. thanks to our panelists, thanks to all of you for joining us in h history event. [applause] >> you're watching