before us, and i think that is a good way of doing that. [indiscernible] >> each week american history tv sits in on a lecture with one of the nation's college professors. you can watch the classes every saturday evening at 8:00 p.m. and midnight eastern. next, air force academy professor lieutenant colonel john roche talked about the relationship between the spanish and native americans in new mexico during the 17th century. he spoke about the factors that influenced the success of the pueblo uprising in comparison to other native american revolts. this class is about 50 minutes. >> first and foremost, we are

being taped by c-span and i must say that my opinions are my own and not those of the united states air force, and the same goes for my students. they will be expressing their own opinions and not those of the united states air force academy or the united states air force. all right. having said that, let's get to today's lesson we are going to talk about spanish cultivation and the new mexico pueblo revolt of the 1870's. stephanie. why don't you read this thesis for me? >> [indiscernible] nevertheless, spain's grasp on the frontier colony remained tenuous at best, due to strife between the secular and religious authorities within the hispanic community. the success of the pueblo revolt in 1680 represented the sole example of indigenous peoples completely eliminating an established european colony in north america. the key factors in the pueblos' unprecedented accomplishment and subsequent 12 year liberation where their successful coalition

building efforts, as well as the geographic and demographic realities of the 16th century landscape. >> ok. i am glad i did not have to write that paper. here is the outline. here we have a little bit about the pueblo indians at this point. we're going to talk about the conquistador, francisco date coronado. we're going to talk about some of the intermediary and trotta tradas that are going to occur after coronado. we're also going to look at whether he was a pacifier or a conquistador, because the laws will change. the laws of 1542 will be superseded the new laws. we will look at some of the civil and ecclesiastical strife

going on in the colony, which explains some of the weaknesses the pueblo will be able to ask -- exploit. and then we will get onto the pueblo revolt of 1680, which is a unique event in american history, because it is the only time you will have an established indigenous -- or an established european colony that is completely ejected by the indigenous peoples. all right. all right. so the pueblo consist of five -- any question about where we are going today? all right, let's get there. so the pueblo consist of five major language groups, right? this right here are three branches of the same language group. we have the tiwa, the pecos, the piro, the keres, the -- yes i know that is lot. , they are all huddled in what place? >> the rio grande. >> yes, the rio grande. the upper rio grande.

that is where we are going this weekend, so it is good to get oriented before we get there. yay. anyone know anything about the web low that may be different from other native groups with study thus far? what strikes you, helps explain a name? >> they are very settled. they live in established towns year round. yes -- >> yes, they live in established towns year round. they can be fortified, because you can pull up ladders. very established positions. what else? anything else? the does the farming generally in most of the native american sites we looked at so far? >> the women. >> the women generally do. is that true for the pueblo? >> no. >> why not? >> they are more of a stable agricultural society. there is not much hunting. there is not really anything in new mexico. >> there is antelope and deer,

but you are right. there is less. they do have to work on the arable land. why else do you think men might be highly desirable to do the farming in the southwest? >> [indiscernible] they are farming maize. it is difficult to grow. >> absolutely. it is significantly different, the soil is arid and rocky. to dig up those boroughs takes a lot more muscle strength, and what don't the pueblo out before the spanish? >> iron. >> that is true. >> they do not have horses. >> they cannot take advantage of the animal muscle power, so by default, they rely on men. they do still hunt, but they are involved in agriculture. you can see that they have an awful lot of pottery. one of the other things -- they are matrilineal. that means what?

adam? >> you take after your mother's side, not your father's side. >> and they are also matrilocal. kind of interesting. all right, we settled on the pueblo and where they are from. coronado. you guys have seen this before. do any of you remember though what happened during the first winter? he goes of their figures out, oh, one of the cities that is supposed to be encrusted with emerald is not actually there. he does not want to go home to new mexico because he is afraid everybody is going to kill him. it was all fine and dandy to do missionary work, but we put money and our lives on the line. we are not amused. he runs out of there. what happened? he wound up wintering here in 1540, 1541. does anyone know what happened?

it is the same pattern that happened again and again and again. think about -- when europeans move in, what do they tend to do? >> they tend to come up to the natives and get them to give them all the money. >> in this case what would be the most valuable thing a pueblo would have? food, number one thing these expeditions will hassle the natives for its food. they never carry enough with them and they usually do not have the agricultural techniques to support themselves. nor do they have the time, right , to plant and harvest crops. so, what they do is during the winter of 1540, 1541, they rely on the native population too heavily and they rise up and rebel. what is the tried and true method of dealing with a native american rebellion?

they consider these [indiscernible] >> too much leniency? >> absolutely. they destroy 13 villages in this area. let me show you what they do with a quick video clip -- do you have a question? >> [indiscernible] they gave the guy the messenger and they set him up? >> yeah, because right after the clip we are going to see, they will get the turk. and he will leave them off. that is supposed to be another fabulously wealthy city. ok, let's see a quick clip. >> [indiscernible] the spaniards respond in kind. men -- [indiscernible] the indians must surrender. coronado said he was coming

with a message. he told me i must wait. he came to offer peace. wait until the indian called turk would be brought their before his execution was carried out. [indiscernible] the black gold. >> they began to fight with some of the indians who wanted to work. >> the indians who remained, they began to defend themselves. because what we were going to them -- [indiscernible] >> uhh! >> they killed some of them by

stabbing them. >> they wanted the indians to fear us. [indiscernible] >> all right, it is because of brutality like that they are going to try to send them off and get them killed. it does not work. what do the spanish have that allow them to come back?

>> horses. have horses. >> [indiscernible] stakes in the ground. >> they did, they did with stakes in the ground to find their way back. it was the compass. when they came back, obviously the pueblo were in revolt. nevertheless, what you think is the legacy of coronado's expedition? >> [indiscernible] >> what kind of role to you think he played in the subsequent colonization of mexico? >> they are not going to go -- let the spanish anywhere near them. >> it is true. they will be very leery of them. >> they found a lot of useful things the spaniards had. >> they did find a lot of things. was the reception surprisingly warm or -- >> [indiscernible] >> it is an interesting thing to think about whether they were

intimidated into, we better be nice to these guys so they cannot act like the last guys, or looking at it have a century later, thinking, they have some good material things and that might be useful for us. all right. there will be entradas in that 50-year period in between, one of the significant once was the rodriguez-chamuscado expedition. basically you have a bunch of freelancers -- they get permission, they have royal permission to go into mexico. what are they looking for? >> gold and slaves. >> ok, gold and slaves would be valuable commodities, absolutely. obviously in northern mexico, you have lots of mines, and if you can bring them back to work in those mines, that is great. that is contrary to new laws in place, and the new laws that are of discovery are in effect as

well. which are even more restrictive. what is the loophole? if you are a conquistador wannabe, how you get around the king telling you, you really should not enslaved people. you should be nice to the native americans. >> they were trying to liberate them from -- like, we talked about it before, but they were trying to, they were liberating them from some other religion or -- >> yeah, they wanted to convert them, but converting them according to the law would not justify being brutal -- >> [indiscernible] >> that is the trick. if you are a good spaniard, how do you fight a good war against the indigenous pueblos? >> [indiscernible] >> you would say we are now subjects of our sovereign king.

if they reject it, than they are the ones to blame. now they are rebels who have rebelled against you and you are fighting a just war against them now. that is the loophole. you will find throughout this time, the spanish provoke a lot of wars. so augustine rodriguez, he goes with sanchez chamuscado. they go with two other friars. rodriguez, for reasons unknown, decides to go back early. then chamuscado ends up dying. other people in northern mexico are concerned. you have two friars running around up there. we should go see what is happening. little did they know, they end up being killed by their pueblo hosts. yes?

was it only the franciscans up there? were there only -- were there any dominicans? >> surprisingly, when it comes to the frontiers, you really are talking almost exclusively franciscans. there were some jesuits early on, but they move out. you might find a stray dominican here or there. but really it is a franciscan operation. the franciscans, unlike the jesuits, do not require you to know the native language. they just require you to perform the sacraments. if they baptize you, they consider you a convert, whether you understand anything about what just happened. that is why their numbers are rather inflated. talk a little bit about the new laws, the royal ordinances on the pacification of natives. ok. the espejo entrada. they go, we have got to find out

what is going on with those friars. we need to find out what happened. we need to make sure they are ok. when they get up to here, they are going to find the place deserted. the native pueblos are like, we do not really want to be around these guys. the expedition will continue going west. they will make it to arizona. they will come back. when they come back, guess what? they find the village inhabited with 30 natives. what do they do? they burn the village. kind of the approved solution during this time. that is one more entrada happens during this time. this is an interesting one. this is by a man named gaspard -- sosa. pretty familiar name for modern americans. he goes up there, and he is the first one to have used wheeled

transport. he brings parts along with him. they think he may be one of the first to use the [speaking spanish], which is the wheel of -- journey of death. i will show you guys that. he did not have official permission. he was to be like cortez. did cortez have permission to take over the aztec empire? >> no. >> what was he hoping for? >> success. >> success would bring forgiveness from his majesty. this is the same thing sosa is thinking. i am bringing 170 people with me. we have a real solid shot at a colony. if we find rich silver mines -- there is silver all through here. there is no reason to think there is not more silver up in

new mexico. perfectly reasonable. he is up there trying to set up his camp, and a guy -- juan morlete shows up and unfortunately for sosa, his job was -- >> to bring him back? >> ah! what position was that? what was he the first one to hold? the position, the very special position? >> viceroy? >> not viceroy. that would have in awesome, but not quite that high. protector of the indians. that is what morlete is. he goes up there because someone is intruding on what should be a missionary realm, and he brings him back in irons.

here rests him and takes him back home. are you starting to notice about the laws? what is one of the ordinances about discoveries? >> they are a lot more radical and protective of the indians? >> they are. >> they have a lot more to do with conversion. >> absolutely the spanish crown is absolutely concerned with the well-being of its new inhabitants. they do not want their other subjects taking advantage of them. that is absolutely true. what else? how is their enforcement? there is some, but it is spotty at best. when do you think they tend to enforce these things? >> they do not like the guy who is doing it. >> absolutely. always after the fact, right? they will call you back in the middle of your expedition and they will try you for whatever you did that they do not like. what else do you think that is odd about the way this is

enforced? >> it is whenever you do not like the other spaniard will stop >> exactly, it is all political, right? they bring their enemies back with the viceroyalty down in spain. that unfortunately in many cases -- all right, now onto the main event, right? when does he kick off his big expedition into mexico? >> 1597. >> 1598. he actually got appointed in 1595, and he has been sitting on the border cooling his heels, waiting to go because he was , trying to work out the precise privileges and other reimbursement that he was going to receive as a result of being the one who will take over all of new mexico.

fortunately for him -- because he is a rich guy. he comes from a very wealthy family. he marries really well, marries the great-granddaughter of montezuma. lineage there.ve he is sitting on the border for a couple years. he finally gets to go. and what is his impression? >> upsetting. >> surprisingly good, is it not? he is able to hold counsel, to trade with them, to get them to nominally agree to being of the spanish authority. he does not get a surprise ambush welcome wagon. pretty impressive. here you can see the path.

interestingly, it is not on here -- he also makes a run out there. maybe it is true. i don't know. obviously, nothing is going to pan out in that direction. he goes out, he comes back, he starts making his way over to the west, and then there is a problem. what problem? what does he run into? >> they do not like farming and that will -- in that area? >> no one comes to the indians to farm. they come to loaf around with the viceroyalty. the zaldivar brothers. the nephew. you have got juan and vincente. juan gets into some trouble.

>> he was trying to get food from the indians and the indians kill him and one of his friends. >> where? >> at -- >> yes. at this place. which is another place we will visit this weekend. at its highest point, this maze sa is 350 feet tall. basically there are two that different sections and they are connected by a thin ridge, right? one is trying to catch up in the west and he stops for supplies. initially they gave him would and other things. he said, i really need food. and so he makes this demand. it will take us a few more days to grind it. he goes about five miles away. he camp's. then he comes back. when he comes back to get the cornmeal, he is apartment -- he has a party of 19. 14 of them will go up on to the

mesa and split up. they will split up, split up into three different groups, and we will go from house to house and collect all of the food and be able to leave. the problem is one of the soldiers takes a turkey, and one of the inhabitants was not willing to give away. and as a result, the soldier gets set upon and they get bum rushed. of all of those who went into the mesa that day, 12 and up -- end up dead. two jump off. amazingly they do not die. >> how far was this jump? >> at its height, 350 feet, but the lower ledges, it is not that high. there is no way he jumped from 350 feet, right? especially in armor. that is not going to fly. think about the situation. you are newly arrived in this

territory. your forces are widely disturbed -- dispersed. now there's a really serious uprising. what do you do? >> [indiscernible] >> you go back to the war of blood and fire, as the spanish would call it, and what is that? >> make an example out of them. >> make an example out of them by fighting total war with these guys, right? he is west, so he has to come back east, because his other forces are on the other side, and he will take the route around so he does not meet any indian hostile. he meets with his forces and he vincente, juan's brother, gives him the men and two cannons and says, go take care of this problem. what kind of response do they get? they get shot at.

it kills two of their horses. zaldivar -- you can imagine how they feel about this insult, right? so he is going to take 11 men and scale the cliff. they will draw off most of the pueblo attention and scale of f the other side. pretty good tactics, and they actually make it to the top of the cliff, and somehow, they managed to hold on these 12 guys at the top of the mesa overnight, even though there is a raging battle going on, right? and the next morning if you are at the top of that mesa, what you desperately want? >> water. >> what else you want? >> to get off the top of the mesa? >> yes. but i have got to deal with this pueblo thing first. what do i really want if i am up there? >> the cannons. >> the cannons.

once they hoist those up there totally different ballgame, , right? they can hire fire downstream. >> they have more than just iron balls by this time in history? >> ammunition -- they will use the iron cannon balls first, but once you run out of that -- you use whatever you want. canister is not that new and invention. it has been around for a while. so, they use that. they end up, they think maybe 800 get killed during the fighting. another 500 get taken captive. another 50 military aged men -- what does he do? i have decisively defeated you in battle. i am in possession of your pueblo. what do i do now? >> he enslaves or kills most of them.

>> does he kill most of them? remember, what is the most valuable thing in new mexico? >> selling people into slavery. >> he tries to. everybody above the age of 12 -- >> good. if you are a fighting age man, if you are above the age of 25, you are losing a foot and you are going to be a slave for 20 years. if you are a woman, you are going to be a slave. if you are a child? >> they take them to the colonies to be like servants. >> they do. they send all of the girls to the local franciscan minister and they give all of the young boys to who? >> mexico city to be servants for other christians. >> they do, but who makes money off of that? >> [indiscernible] >> no. zaldivar. patronage. you have to reward the guy who

just climbed up the cliff and dragged cannons up there. i would argue it really fuels the conquest of new mexico. yes, they were there before, but it was all rather participatory. he had not had to exert any real colors of influence. it is this that really settled the fact -- there is a new guy ibe in town that is really powerful and we will have to deal with them and not take them head-on and not subversively. all right. when the interesting things about new mexico is the amount of conflict you will see between the church and state. it is not uncommon back in europe. there are conflicts there is

well. why is the church significantly stronger in new mexico than in the civil colonial government? >> made it has to do with the -- maybe it has to do with the fact that they are not finding the gold and silver that they want. there is no incentive for where ist expansion, the church still wants to convert people. >> sure. your influence is directly relative to a much patronage, and you can't be handing out goodies for people, right? as a result, the new mexicans going to side- with the church on many issues. you know -- will fall to the political intrigues in court and he will be called out of the colony. when that happens, they are thinking of abandoning it. there does not seem to be any money out there.

we are going to call it quits. why don't they do that? new mexico, not a good idea. >> they probably do not want to condemn themselves to damnation because -- >> >> ah. the franciscans. could you get on your side to give the colony going? who? the pope would be helpful, the viceroy would be nice. the viceroy only has so much. >> you go to the king. >> you go straight to the king. he was his most catholic majesty philip iii. he and his father are both very devoted to the conversion mission. that is the trump card the franciscans are able to play time and time again together missionary efforts going. that is what they are going to be able to do. as a result, they are going to be very successful.

the funny thing is, the very first three governors are going to run afoul of the franciscans. what you think the big conflict between the franciscans and the governors and the colonies of new mexico are? what is their beef? >> the culture with the shamans. their argument is whether they should be allowed to do their tribal dances. >> yes. basically down here in 1659, 1660, he will take the last approach to what they consider the hedonism of the natives. that drives a wedge. long before that ever happens, the major fighting points are -- who is going to control indian labor? when you boil it right down that , is a real source of wealth in new mexico, the ability to provide tribute. the other thing obviously is the overall influence on the missionary effort. as far as the franciscans are concerned, the worldly people who care about making money --

and it is a legitimate concern -- these guys put up a substantial sum of their own money. they usually have to pay 50% of their first year's salary to the king as a tax. makeneed to desperately money, but obviously the franciscans see this is a corrupting influence and they are not happy about that. so anyway, the very first three governors fail and get excommunicated because of their fights with the franciscans. as a matter of fact, peralta, the second one, he gets excommunicated twice for good measure. what happens to a good catholic who gets excommunicated, cut off from the sacrament of the church? >> going to hell. >> you are going to hell in a handbasket, my friend. bad news for you.

anyone recognize that building? the palace of the governor, the longest continually occupied civil government building in the united states. of course you have to take account the 12 years when the spanish are kicked out. that is the first mission, san juan bautista. up there in santa fe. all right. does the church have any other big guns besides excommunication? that is a good one. what else have they got? to deal with unruly governors. the inquisition. because no one expects the spanish inquisition. right? [laughter] you can investigate penance, all sorts of seedy, underhanded things, embarrass people.

you can put them in jail, the deep, dark dungeon of the inquisition. they are never coming back. the ecclesiastical side of the house of the new mexico has a lot of tools. >> doesn't the catholic church, the higher church leadership in america -- the bishop, i guess that would be correct -- >> you do not have a bishop in new mexico at this time. ate.do have a prel basically what happens is the inquisition comes to new mexico, and the order of the holy crusade, which is basically just a tax, originally to pay for the crusades and jerusalem, but then for the iberian peninsula, that will come in 1663. the church has all these resource pools they are able to draw on. the native americans do not pay tribute. they do not have to tie to the

the to the church. do have to work through the church, which is the same difference, and they feel very bitter about how little tribute they can extract from them. plus, the franciscans go up first. many of them get martyred, but even if they do not get martyred, they get to pick the best land. all right. let's talk a little bit about native american culture or religious belief that will have the franciscans so up in arms, right? anyone tell me what this is? there are different ways to spell this, all right. anybody know what a kachina is? >> a religious idol. >> yes, your religious idols, or your water spirits. if you are living in the southwest, water deities are really important. the franciscans do not want to see this kind of behavior at all.

the other thing they do not want to see are these -- these are kivas, and these are religious underground areas where native americans will gather for various ceremonies. for our franciscans, this is subterranean close to satan and , the devil and clearly they are up to no good if they are hanging out in the underground. one thing they will try to do is destroy those masks and whatnot, but the other thing they will do is destroy a lot of the kivas. this is one of the things they get so fired up about. they will say, oh, come on, they are dancing. it does not matter. of course, it does. he is pandering to the pueblos to get them on his side, but this is the source of some major fighting. do you guys notice anything native american willingness to adopt catholicism, in this case? are there times when they are more or less likely to adopt catholicism or throw it off after they have adopted it?

>> one thing you do notice, it is never really permanent when they adopt it, so a lot of the franciscans expect, ok, we will convert you to catholicism. and you will get rid of everything, and that is not the case. apt itind of attack -- ad and they find it useful when they need them, and when things are going well, they do not needed as much, and they tend to not have two cleaved to the franciscans by following catholicism. >> absolutely, the franciscans will sprinkle you with holy water, baptize you, and boom, you are a catholic. the native americans, a you let them do that baptism thing to you, but generally when things are going well for the spanish, he native americans are more

likely to be willing to convert. when things are going back to the spanish, they are more likely to embrace their traditional deities. because they think jesus has deserted them or whatever the case may be. all right, that is probably good enough on that. ok. two factors that are really unique in new mexico and help to explain the success of the pueblo revolt is -- one is geography. what is it about the geography of new mexico that sets it up for an instance where the indigenous people will rise up and throw out the european colonizers for a good amount of time. >> [indiscernible] >> how far is it from mexico city to santa fe? >> 1500 miles. >> 1500. how do you go there? >> slowly. >> it is all along the camino real. it is not all desert. jornada part here -- the

muerta. the journey of death. are is 90 miles and you away from the river. what would you do that. why would you say, oh, the river is over there, but i will walk across this part? >> [indiscernible] >> as you can see, you have lots and arroyos, and there will be rainstorms and you will get flash flooding. if you're bringing a wagon, you just cannot traverse over there. it is just safer and more navigable. on average how long does it take you to get from point a to point b? >> about six months. >> on average they are doing 6.3 miles a day, which means you are going to be out here for at least 11 days or so, and that is assuming every thing goes well. if things go bad -- you get attacked, there is a nasty storm you're not expecting -- maybe you are there for three weeks.

that can be a very dangerous thing. it is kind of hard to see that, but that is the typical cart they would have. it has three wheels. they would cook it up to the oxen and drag it up there. the bleakness of the journey of death. so, this is a point of comparison, right? here, you get resupplied on average, theoretically, once every three years. the royal convoy, because this is a royal colony supported by real funds, the real treasury will send out a convoy every three years. florida gets a convoy every -- three times a year. what is florida get a convoy three times a year? >> [indiscernible] >> ok, it is closer to spain, but even more important than being closer to spain -- ok, new mexico, florida --

>> there was no -- there was no threat of another european influence? >> yes. at times, they will actually be worried about it. one of the original justifications was, hey, the english have this colony on roanoke. they have no idea how big the united states is. they don't get the whole longitude thing yet. when they reestablish the colony, they will be concerned about the french. so there are concerns about that, but more importantly -- what about saint augustine? it is on the coast. not only is it on the coast, but what runs right by it? the whole reason they were there in the first place? >> the current. >> the current. re alle e going the time. resupplying saint augustine is a piece of cake.

and nobody wants to do this. it is once every three years. plenty of times during the 1620's, it was every four years. boy, those are going to be long years in new mexico, waiting for something to buy. even if you wanted -- even if the viceroyalty hears about the problems that are going to happen during the pueblo revolt, what can they do about it? who is going to volunteer to go to a part of new mexico that has no gold or silver? here's the other thing. demography. 1680. you have 1000 people, 1000 people who are actually's anna eshoo. but the others are mestizos or native american allies, so they ere not sure spanish -- pur

spanish. compared to the population of 17,000, of which 6000 are warriors with military capability. that is a 40 to one ratio in favor of the pueblo. does it start to make sense why they win? let's compare this to notable native american almost wins. for example, the tidewater wars -- this would be the second of those and that would be the third of those. the virginia population in 1622. 1230, 347 killed, 28%. that is pretty impressive. yet, the english did not go running, why? because they can fall back on the coast. there were ships that had supplies and cannons and more people, etc., etc.. there was a safe haven. these are all rough approximations.

obviously the native americans do not keep census records. by 1644, when they do it again, the populations are roughly equal, right, and they only kill 500 colonists. only 3.6 percent of the population. not really impressive. what do the numbers alone tell you about 1644 in virginia? >> the indians wipe them all out. -- disease has wiped them all out. >> in combination with wars and native american slave trade. you are even. the chance of pushing them out are pretty darn slim, especially because four years later you will have 14,000 englishmen and african slaves. at the color that numbers will continue to dwindle. willpowhatan numbers

continue to dwindle. let's take a look at another example. king philip's war. proportionally, one of the most deadly wars in american history, right? they're going to lose roughly 5% of the total population. this is the population -- roughly within all of new england. this is another way of saying the people -- it like a term for native americans. roughly 10,000. pretty small. of which about a quarter are warriors. 6 to 4 ratio favoring new england colonists. they push them back to plymouth and boston and all like that. nevertheless they do not push them out. they hold their supply lines. they have enough matériel and resources. any questions about the geographical or the demographic contributions to what will be the native american success in the pueblo revolt?

excellent. here we go. without further ado. who do you think that guy is? >> [indiscernible] name? what would be his pope. >> pope. or alternately spelled popay. the difficulties they were having, these top in the letter -- these stop in the latter part of the century. the franciscans and the governors come to a truce and they realize, we are pretty isolated here. we better embrace and lock arms and come to a united front against the native americans. and times are kind of bad in new mexico. there are droughts. the native americans think the

spanish are losing their spiritual power. so what do they do? >> [indiscernible] >> and they turned to? >> the shaman. >> the shaman. i need rain. ,hey round up the shaman execute them, flog the rest. pope is one of the surviving ones. he has a pretty big grudge. as things deteriorate, the pueblo are going to do something very unique. they are going to build an effective confederation or alliance amongst all of these different groups. i mean think about this. , we call them all pueblo, and yes many of them speak the same but with their dialects, they cannot really understand each other.

they are spread out over hundreds of miles. they do not generally see eye to eye on anything. but they form into an alliance. not only does he get them to form into an alliance, but he gets the local apaches who showed up in the last 40 years and gets them to be part of the alliance. because they have been raiding them. that was a significant part.lishment on pope's how does he do it? anyone remember the signal? should remind you of the incas. >> runners. >> runners with what? >> messages or smoke signals. >> what were the messages? >> [indiscernible] knots.ed knots in the cord would indicate

the days for the rebellion. what happens is they get found out early. how do they get found out early? loyal, christianized pueblo rat them out. they catch the messengers, and they torture them and they say, ok, we are going to rise up in rebellion against you. what will happen is, santa fe will end up getting besieged. about 1000 people in santa fe. about 2000 pueblo are besieging them. meanwhile, further south, refugees fled, and the deputy governor figures, no one is going to come to help us, so we retreat. and they retreat all way down to el paso. meanwhile, the governor -- he takes a couple 200 of the thousand surrounding them.

how does he forced them to leave? >> cut off the water supply. >> they hold it for a few more weeks, and they decide they have to abandon the colony, too. they make it down to el paso, and when they make it, he was to -- wants to court-martial his deputy. dude, you ran away. you bailed. he convinces him he had good reason. unfortunately, that is all of the time we have for today. we will wrap this up next time. see you. >> [indiscernible] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] -- [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] -->> you're watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3.