experts will continue to advise both the conduct and the commission we always have the right voices at the table for educational and disciplinary work. second, we are deploying a comprehensive mandatory education program for more than 5,000 men and women in the nfl family. our goal is to ensure that everyone understands and has the full scope of this behavior and is familiar with the warning signs associated with these crimes. education also rho promotes prevention. how individuals can appropriately and safely help those at risk is another key focus area of our education. third, we are training the response teams to help prevent and respond quickly to family violence and sexual assault including safety, medical, legal, and financial support. fourth, we are a supporting leading domestic violence and

sexual assault awareness including the national domestic violence hotline and the national sexual violence resource center. fifth and finally, we are raising awareness of this critical issue. domestic violence, child abuse and sexual assault in collaboration with the no more campaign and the joyful heart foundation and the nfl airs public service announcements during the game. finally, we are promoting programs for those who play and coach and manage our game at all levels, including age appropriate character development, healthy relationship education as well as domestic violence and child abuse and sexual assault education. we have learned a great deal from our mistakes, and by listening to experts in the domestic violence child abuse and the sexual assault communities, the more we listen and learn to become more aware

of these complexities. both of the problem and the solution. we are working hard to balance the issues of a fair process with the goal of preventing and punishing these behaviors. mr. chairman and the committee, we believe that wearing the uniform of nfl players is a privilege. it is not a right. every member of the nfl community must embrace this unique youth leadership role that we play in our society and the trust that you place in us. we look forward to working with the committee to advance these goals i know we all share. thank you for this opportunity and, chairman, i thank you for your lifetime service in this area. >> thank you, mr. vincent. that was excellent testimony and honest and a good beginning. thank you.

ms. terry patterson, deputy managing director national football league players association. can you put that closer to your -- >> good afternoon, chairman and members of the committee. as stated, my name is terry patterson and i serve as the deputy managing director and special council of the nfl players association whom i represent on the panel today. we greatly appreciate the committ committee's interest in the critical issue of domestic violence. we always welcome the opportunity to meet with members to discuss the issues concerning our sport. we have seen in the past the leadership of elected officials brought thoughtful and meaningful change to our sport, for example, in the area of concussions. we have worked with and supported as they continued to push to protect athletes that participate in football on all levels. we are here today to address your concerns surrounding domestic violence and professional sports. just to be clear, neither the players nor the nfl pa condone

domestic violence in any form. we understand the significance of our position both for society at large and more importantly for the families and individuals involved. any incidence is one too many. but it does not and should not reflect on the overwhelming majority of our hebs who contribute to their committees in countless ways. this week you will see players with many constituents as part of the play 60 campaign. we believe that a comprehensive system of education, prevention, intervention and counseling will help us find solutions to lowering the instances that present themselves each and every year. specifically related to our sport, we believe that those tools, combined with fair and appropriate discipline, is the best way to achieve the goals of preventing incidents of domestic violence and assisting those involved. unfortunately we have seen repeated instance where is d

discipline under the personal conduct policy of the nfl and implemented by the commissioner has failed to get us closer to those solutions. we have seen on more than one occasion when matters were left to the nfl. it is mismanaged and will not withstand outside the review in the bounty incidence. in the incident in new orleans, the commissioner's unilateral controlled discipline was overturn overturned. with ray rice, it was overturned after further review by a former federal judge appointed as the neutral arbitrator. this system run by the nfl does not work for the members and as we heard from constituents, as well, as i'm sure you have, that continued to express with the current discipline. we have been tasked by the membership to find solutions and bargain with the nfl for a better process.

accordingly, in early october, we established a blue ribbon commission to advise us on matters of domestic violence prevention, intervention, and processes of discipline. i included the names of the pebs of the commission in the submitted testimony and also their bios. we are also fortunate and pleased to see that a member of our commission is testifying at the hearing today. with the assistance of experts and community leaders, we've started a dialogue with our membership to create membership and policy to create societal issues. we requested the nfl join with us and participating in the commission's work. the nfl declined to do so to date, but that didn't stop us from moving ahead. we cannot move ahead in bargaining by ourselves. we've attempted to engage the league in formal negotiations to improve the personal conduct policy and the processes by

which it is to be administered. we provided the nfl with a fair proposal over a month ago and despite the receipt of a letter response only this past sunday, the nfl refuses to commit to collective bargaining. we believe a jointly bargained system is the only way to ensure that professional football's approach to domestic violence has the credibility and the effectiveness that we have come to expect and respect such as the drug-related policies. we remain fully committed to addressing these issues in a meaningful way because that's the only way we can ensure that change happens. we also remain ready to assist the committee and improving the way domestic violence is with the sport and the country. thank you for your time, and we look forward to answering any questions you may have for us. >> thank you very much, miss patterson. i have to note there was an enormous amount of pressure coming from many directions, not necessarily the folks at the

witness table but the folks that you work with for us not to have this hearing. we went ahead anyway. not everything is -- this openness is not as commonly held of a process as i would like. mr. joe torre, executive vice president of baseball operations for major league baseball. welcome. >> thank you, mr. chairman. good afternoon. chairman rockefeller, senators and members of the committee. i'm joe torre, executive vice president of baseball operations for major league baseball. and i want to thank you for the opportunity to discuss the efforts we are undertaking to address the issue of domestic violence and sexual assault. the subject matter of this hearing is personally important to me as a person whose childhood was touched by domestic violence. i have come to understand that discussing the issue publicly has the potential to help

millions of victims who believe that they must suffer in silence. in 2002, my wife allie and i formed the safe at home foundation to create educational programs aimed at ending the cycle of domestic violence, and i'm proud to say that we've reached close to 50,000 youngsters in that time. through my work in the area, including cochairing the attorney general's task force on children exposed to violence, i have had the opportunity to work with some truly outstanding individuals who have devoted their lives to working towards solving the issue of domestic violence in this country. commissioner selig has instilled in our sport the understanding that major league baseball is a social institution. and as our national pastime has an obligation to set a positive example. the commissioner and i deplore domestic violence and crimes against women and families.

we recognize the clear public expectation for the professional expectation for the professional sport leagues to be leaders in addressing this social ill. some of our clubs already have taken a leading in the issue. for example, the seattle mariners have cooperated on a statewide initiative called refuse to abuse. going forward, the commissioner has instructed his staff to develop a stand-alone policy to address domestic violence and sexual assault prior to the upcoming season. although we are in the midst of developing the policy, i would like to explain what we have done thus far and hope to do in the next few months. since september of 2014, as part of our education process, representatives of major league baseball have met with over a dozen national and local organizations focused on

addressing domestic violence and violence against women and/or providing services and support to victims. representatives from those groups consistently told us while they are obviously unsettled by the recent incidents of domestic violence and professional ports. they believe those incidents have signed a light on an issue often in the shadows. they believe, and we agree, that sports leagues can make a difference. we have begun selecting a joint steering committee that will develop education and training materials for players, staff, and their families. some of these initiatives include posting informational materials at major league and minor league ballparks and publicizing contact information for confidential hot lines and shelters. mlb intends to develop the

educational programs at each club specifically designed for the families and intimate partners of players. we also are developing protocols that our clubs must follow in response to domestic violence or sexual assault incidents that will include appropriate measures to ensure the safety of affected individuals providing confidential counselling and treatment for victims and providing counseling and intervention for perpetrators. major league baseball has selected a san francisco-based group called futures without violence to help us develop and implement training and education for all of our players. futures has been partnering with the san francisco giants on these important issues for more than a decade. futures has arranged for doctor linda chamberlain to speak with the medical staffs of our clubs

at mlb's winter meetings this coming weekend. doctor chamberlain founded the alaska family violence prevention project and will be speaking to our club medical staffs on the trauma informed approach to addressing domestic violence. in january of 2015, the top prospects in baseball will be educated on domestic violence and sexual assault during the annual rookie career development program. beginning with the spring training this february, every major and minor league player will be educated on issues relating to domestic violence and sexual assault by futures and other organizations including mentors in violence prevention, men can stop rais, a call to men, and casa des pranza. the staffs of mlb clubs and the commissioner's office will also be educated. the commissioner understands that an important component of any policy covering domestic

violence and sexual assault is appropriate discipline for players who engage in this conduct. presently, the commissioner has the authority under mlb's collective bargaining agreement with the players association that disciplines for just cause for conduct that is merle ti detriment detrimental including conduct in violation of federal, state, or local law. under a just cause standard, the commissioner's saufs required to prove a violation by a player at an evidentiary hearing before a neutral arbitrator, which can be difficult in the absence of a conviction or a plea or without cooperating witnesses or tangible evidence regarding the conduct. in addition, our arbitrators in

the past have been less inclined to uphold severe discipline under a just-cause standard for off-field conduct that does not impact the player's ability to perform. mlb has proposed revisions to its disciplinary policy covering players that would make it easier for the commissioner to impose an appropriate level on players who commit acts of violence or sexual assault and have that discipline be upheld in arbitration. mlb does not have the right to insist on any changes to player discipline until its current collective bargaining agreement with the players expires in december of 2016. however, we are hopeful that we will come to an agreement with the players association prior to the start of next season on a disciplinary policy specifically tailored to domestic violence and sexual assault.

as we told our owners two weeks ago, major league baseball is committed to develop agriculture in to which athletes impolice siltly understand their role as men and role models to speak out and act out against crimes against women and families. we fully understand that educating over 4,000 players from diverse backgrounds on an issue that many of them have not previously considered is not an easy undertaking. however, we intend to devote the time and the resources necessary to accomplish just that. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. torre. it was my mistake that i did not say at the beginning of this hearing that we face two challenges. one, we generally we have a rule that witnesses can speak for five minutes or less but not more, and secondly we have votes starting at 4:00, so that puts pressure on all of us to get on with it.

ms. virginia seitz, outside counsel. major league baseball players association. what is outside counsel? are you a part of them or do you advise them or what? >> i advise them. and i've been doing it for the past 25 years. i've been outside special counsel for most of the last 25 years to major league baseball players association. >> but they couldn't make it? >> i'm testifying on behalf of the association's executive director, tony clark. he couldn't attend today because he is right now chairing mlbpa's annual executive board meeting. it will not surprise you to hear that one of the major topics at that meeting that's under discussion today and tomorrow is, in fact, domestic violence and the work the association's been doing this fall to address this. >> please proceed with your testimony. and the time -- >> i will attempt to be brief. >> you don't need to be. that time is mine. you have your full five minutes. >> this fall, the players association has been working with major league baseball to

examine our current program addressing domestic violence, which only covers players in light of recent events. we've been considering how it needs to be modified and perhaps folded into a program for the entire baseball family that's based on accountability, consequences and fairness. back in 2011, the players association and major league baseball negotiated and implemented a policy that addresses off-field violent conduct including domestic violence in two ways. it provides for both therapeutic intervention and for discipline in cases of inappropriate and unlawful conduct. under our joint treatment program we utilize medical professionals all around the country to design therapeutic treatments for players who are charged with domestic violence-related crimes. based on our understanding of domestic violence, we had moved away from a one size fits all approach in favor of individualized evaluation and

case by case treatment for the player and the family involved. with respect to discipline, as mr. torre described, the program gives the commissioner of baseball or the employer club authority to discipline a player where an act of domestic violence has been alleged. under the collective bargaining agreement, the player may be disciplined for just cause for any conduct materially detrimental or materially prejudicial to the best interests of baseball including any conduct that violates federal, state, or local law. it's critically important from the association's point of view that discipline be imposed for just cause and that it be subject to review before a neutral arbitrator. in addition to the program just described, the association maintains its own clinical psychiatrist on staff. he's well known and frequently meets with players on a confidential basis to address mental health issues as they arise and that might lead to violence. this part of the association's program reflects its belief that the most effective treatment is that what happens before violence can occur. in some our program involves --

under our current program, a player may be disciplined, undergo treatment, and may seek help through our own clinical psychiatrist. we recognize, however, that more can be done. and so this fall we've begun a dialogue with mlb about modifications and improvements to our program. that includes an enhanced public relations program to promote the understanding and eradication of domestic violence in our society. second, an improved education and therapeutic program for major league baseball players and their families so that potential issues can be addressed in an appropriate, confidential manner before violence occurs and so that all are aware of resources that can provide assistance and prevent harm. and third, possible changes to the existing disciplinary structure for domestic violence offenses. like many organizations, mlb has devoted an extraordinary amount of time and effort this fall to consult with a wide range of experts and expert organizations in the domestic violence area.

we've learned there's no one simple solution, no one easy answer, but we hope by meeting with the experts and gathering their recommendations we can develop a more effective program for all of baseball and become a credible voice in the ongoing national dialogue about how to end domestic violence. mr. chairman, thank you for this opportunity. i'm happy to answer any questions you might have. >> thank you very much, ms. seitz. ms. kathleen behrens, executive vice president, social responsibility and player programs, the national basketball association. please proceed. >> thank you, mr. chairman and senator thune and members of the committee. appreciate your inviting us to this hearing today. my written testimony has been submitted to the committee, so i will certainly try to be brief in the interest of time. we share your view, however, that a hearing like this is certainly helpful and expect that it will generate not only thought but action, and that can certainly help all of us at this table.

i am the nba's executive vice president for social responsibility and player programs, and as such i oversee all of our community programs and partnerships as well as all of our educational efforts with our players. our commissioner, adam silver, regrets that he is not able to be here today but he had a longstanding commitment to lead a group of nba owners and executives on a trip to india this week. like the committee and like others already have spoken, we have taken a fresh look at all of our programs, policies and educational efforts in this area over the course of the last few months, and we have determined through our work, especially in partnership with the players association, that there is more that we can and should be doing to better educate our players and to help prevent domestic violence from occurring in the first place. we work closely with the players association on all of our educational programs for players and have determined that this year we need to do even more. we'll be doing new awareness and educational sessions with our players, with player family members, with team and league

staff to help raise awareness, inspire leadership, and hopefully prevent domestic violence from happening within the nba family. at the same time, we know that discipline is part of the process as well. and our collective bargaining agreement allows for discretion for the commissioner but also neutral arbitration for our players, due process that we believe is fair. in the end we want to stress to this committee and to others that we take this issue seriously. we are committed to doing all that we can to prevent it. we are committed to doing all that we can to provide firm but fair discipline when necessary and we will continue to learn and improve in all of these areas. happy to answer any questions that the committee has. thank you. >> thank you, very much, for that. ms. michelle roberts, executive director, nba players association. welcome. >> thank you. good afternoon, mr. chairman. is my mike on?

i can't tell. now it's on. >> beautiful. >> again, my name is michelle roberts, and i am the executive director of the national basketball players association, the labor union that represents all nba players in collective bargaining. i appreciate the committee's desire to explore the topic of domestic violence in professional sports. as a lawyer formerly in private practice with the law firm of scad and arbs, my most rewarding pro bono project involved the representations of victims of domestic violence who were seeking civil protection orders here in local courts in d.c. when i began my work in mid-september, i was encouraged to learn that domestic violence is a topic that our players recognized needed to be addressed long before the events of recent months when the public's attention has turned so intently on the subject. recent events have given us an

opportunity to re-examine and strengthen the already comprehensive scheme the nba and the nbpa had in place and add even more safeguards with the focus on prevention and counseling. we want to make sure that every player, wife, significant other and family member has a safe environment to seek help without fear of retaliation or additional harm. and in doing so, our recent efforts have brought together representatives of all members of the nba family in an unprecedented fashion. we also want to lead by example and help create the kind of awareness and attention that this prevalent and society-wide problem deserves. let me first step back to briefly describe some of the steps our players have already taken through collective bargaining and otherwise to address these issues. i do not exaggerate when i say that we begin to broach this topic with our players years before they even enter the nba.

each june at our top 100 camp, the nbpa brings together the nation's elite high school basketball players together with their parents and helps prepare them for competitive life at the next level with an emphasis on character, education and life skills development. close to 200 current nba players have attended the top 100 camp. during this week-long program at the university of virginia campus, the players work on their basketball skills, but the majority of each day is focused away from the court where our staff of retired players, counselors, psychologists and psychiatric professionals lead large and small group discussions that, in part, focus specifically on respect issues with girls and women. at this young and impressionable age, we teach players that part of embracing their manhood includes treating every woman with kindness and respect. at last june's camp, the boys and their parents spent a great deal of time with khalima johnson, a very effective educator and founder of the

sasha center, a detroit-based healing and awareness center focusing on sexual assault. the education continues the moment the player enters the league with the rookie transition program, a four-day joint program between labor and management that likewise focuses on personal skills development and provides training on numerous topics related to conduct including domestic violence. in past years judge glenda hatchet has been a very effective voice delivering graphic and powerful presentations on the effects and consequences of sexual misconduct and abuse of women. to complete the progression, we not only raise awareness for our players before and upon entering the nba, but we now hold a team awareness meeting designed jointly by the nba and the nbpa devoted solely to domestic violence. as we speak, khalima johnson and ted bunch, a co-founder of a call to men, a leading violence prevention organization, are traveling around the country to

meet with every nba team for a session devoted solely to domestic violence awareness. these sessions supplement the year-round work done by our nbpa player program staff, a group of seven retired players who work full-time for the union, together with the joint labor management player assistance and health education programs, that help players confront many of the emotional, anger management, and other stress-related issues that can be at the root of a domestic conflict. our collective bargaining agreement itself lays out various policies designed to prevent, deter and, if necessary, punish acts of domestic violence. under our uniform player contract players are required to conduct themselves on and off the court according to the highest standards of honesty, citizenry, and sportsmanship. the commissioner may impose a fine or suspension for conduct that does not conform to standards of morality or fair play that does not comply at all times with all state and federal and local laws and is prejudicial or detrimental to the nba. i can see i'm running out of

time. i end on this final note. since i began my tenure, i have determined that in addition to the cba mandated levels of discipline, a greater focus is warranted on prevention and services to family members. at the union's expense, i recently convened a group of nba mothers, fathers, spouses and significant others for an all-day session at our offices in new york. those discussions were facilitated by a domestic violence expert, carma cottman, with the d.c. coalition against domestic violence. among other things we identified as a principal need the establishment of a hot line and counseling service that will encourage players and family members and other interested persons to seek out help without the fear of retaliation. many people are fearful if they speak out about the possibility or the actual occurrence of a domestic violence event, they will expose themselves to public ridicule, be alienated by relatives and friends, and/or

jeopardize a player's livelihood and thus put at risk their family's financial health. everyone must be comfortable that there's a safe and confidential manner to seek help. now with the passage of 6 minutes and 14 seconds i'll conclude my presentation and be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you very much. jessica berman, vice president and deputy general counsel of the national hockey league. welcome. >> thank you, chairman. thank you, chairman, ranking member, and the members of the committee for inviting the national hockey league to testify here today regarding domestic violence in professional sports. the nhl takes very seriously the issues of domestic violence. we believe we have an obligation to raise awareness, provide education, and penalize offenders all with the hope and intention of deterring future misconduct. to that end and working with the nhlpa, the duly authorized collective bargaining

representative, all nhl players, the league has responsibly developed, implemented and enforced strict policies, practices and procedures regulating the off-ice personal conduct of its players which extend to and encompass situations of domestic abuse. a core component underlying these rules and policies is a comprehensive education program which has existed for at least the last decade. the league provides annual training for our players on a variety of critical social issues and these issues have included domestic abuse. this training and education has been delivered in a number of forums and contexts and by multiple voices. those voices have included the nhl's security department and medical professionals charged with administering our substance abuse and behavioral health program, which is a jointly administered program created by the nhl and nhlpa in 1996. they meet with players on an annual basis on each team to discuss with them, among other

things, personal conduct issues. in addition, the nhl and nhlpa organize an annual rookie orientation program, and at this past year's program, at two different breakout sessions, the issue of domestic violence was addressed as well as other personal conduct issues. we believe that by making the message clear and reinforcing them on a regular basis, the players are better prepared to appreciate and manage difficult problems that they face both from a personal and professional standpoint. and as a result, they will be better equipped to avoid situations that will bring harm to themselves and to their families. in addition to our work in the area of education and raising awareness, the collective bargaining agreement which will remain in effect until at least september 15, 2020, governs the terms and conditions of employment for all of the players. they grant the league and its 30 clubs to enforce the rules

regulating player's off-ice conduct. and this responsibility will continue do be exercised appropriately, fairly and judiciously. i'll just briefly go through a couple of the relevant provisions which provide the league with that authority. in our collective bargaining agreement, the commissioner has broad authority to impose discipline when a player has been guilty of conduct that is detrimental to or against the welfare of the league or the game of hockey. this language has been applied by the league office to a wide array of personal conduct off-ice matters, and we believe it provides the league with an adequate degree of discretion and authority. the standard form employment contract which is also part of our collective bargaining agreement provides nhl teams with the authority to discipline players for conduct that violates the rule that requires a player to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of

honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interests of the club, and the league generally. the national hockey league remains committed to addressing the players's problems in a meaningful way and protecting both the integrity and generally good reputation of our players and our sport. we do not hesitate to take disciplinary action in necessary and appropriate circumstances as most recently evidenced by the indefinite suspension issued to a player in the nhl who was recently charged with a domestic violence offense. while no trial has occurred in that situation and the player remains innocent until proven guilty, we felt the most appropriate course of action in that case was to remove the player from the ice at least until we are able to satisfy ourself with respect to what has actually transpired.

the nhl appreciates being provided with the opportunity to express our views here today and we remain available to answer any questions you may have. thank you. >> thank you, ms. berman. steve fehr, the special counsel national hockey league players association. >> thank you. and if i might, i would like to say i've never lived in and rarely been to west virginia, but i've long been an admirer of the senator from west virginia. i'd like to thank you for all that you've done, not just in holding this hearing but throughout your career, wish you the best in 2015 and beyond. in regard to none of the executive directors other than ms. roberts being able to show up, i would like to say the executive director of the nhlpa who happens to have the same last name as i do wanted very much to be at this hearing. he had a longstanding commitment overseas. i believe staff was told the hearing was next week or even this morning he would have been happy to attend.

he would be happy to meet with you either in your offices or at a future hearing. there could be advantages or disadvantages to going last. i will not read from my statement. i preeshgt that you take it in record. it's a little too long, and parts would be repetitive, not only what ms. berman said about the nhl but what ms. roberts and ms. seitz said on behalf of baseball players and basketball players. but let me just make a few points. professional athletes face extraordinary public scrutiny both on and off their field of play. they're often thrust into the public spotlight at a very young age, sometimes 20 or even younger in the nhl, with pressures few people rarely experience during their lifetime. many of you expect the players to be role models, but in most cases their background and training in high performance athletics has done very little to assist them in assuming that role. in light of this, the nhlpa has worked diligently with the nhl to develop policies and programs to help these young men and their families deal with these pressures. we believe our efforts have met with some success, but it is a

never-ending project. it starts with education. we stress education for our players beginning at a young age. as ms. berman indicated, much of that is done through the sabh program in which services are available to all players and all who could be involved in a situation involving domestic violence, that includes families, that includes girlfriends, and i did ask staff it was appropriate to say that word. trained medical professionals are available for counseling and other services on a 24-hour basis. we have our rookie orientation program, which has been in place for two years now. it was initiated by the players association along with the league. it is based on a model that was used by nmlb, and the associate director of the mlbpa worked as director for many years we express training on players

coming into the league on many subjects including domestic violence. on the subject of discipline, the cba does give the commissioner the power to discipline for what we call off-ice conduct. obviously, that would include situations involving domestic violence. under the cba, such discipline is eventually reviewable to a neutral arbitrator. the arbitrator is asked to review whether the discipline imposed for off-ice conduct was, quote, supported by substantial evidence and proportionate to the gravity of the offense. this right to appeal should encourage the fair and consistent application of disciplinary policies and of results that can withstand objective scrutiny. the fact that the arbitrator is independent, is not an employee of the nhl or a representative of the nhl, adds considerable credibility to the process. any penalties imposed are just. i should add, as i said in my statement, that discipline in this area can be complex,

particularly when there's interplay between potential criminal charges or actual criminal charges and disciplinary proceedings on the workplace. finally, as commissioner bettman said last week in a letter to the house committee, there have been very few incidents that have come to light in recent years involving nhl players and domestic violence. and i do not say that, senator thune, to minimize or downplay the issue because obviously it's a very important issue, and even if there is one, there's one too many and we need to continue to work until there are none. thank you for holding this hearing, and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you very much. just to make an announcement, it's very, very difficult if the leadership holds votes at 4:00 for us to have a reasonable hearing, and so i'm trying with everything i can to get them to postpone those votes for at

least a half an hour so that all members have a chance to speak and ask questions. it's much too important a hearing to let a couple of votes get in the way of it. senator. >> mr. vincent, as we discussed last friday the former federal judge who heard ray rice's appeal of his suspension ruled that mr. rice had not misled nfl commissioner roger goodell about his confrontation with his fiancee. in her 17-page opinion, the judge discusses the prediscipline meeting between ray rice and roger goodell, stating that, "at the time of the june 16th meeting the nfl also knew that there was a camera inside the elevator and thought it was likely that there was a video from the camera. various sources, including nfl security, had reported the existence of such a video. rice had received this video in

discovery during his criminal case but the nfl never asked rice for the second video." that's end quote, that's from the judge. so the question is how did the commissioner not know that there was a second video inside the elevator at the time of the june 16th meeting with mr. rice? >> well, senator, i'd like to begin with judge jones' decision and her opinion letter. i thought it made it very clear the commissioner first imposing discipline then coming back and imposing discipline again, that was a deficiency in our system. but as we read through her opinion later, i think she made it obvious. if the commissioner had imposed more severe discipline on the onset, it would have made it very difficult for her to rule any differently. we've learned. i think the commissioner has acknowledged those mistakes. we have acknowledged those mistakes. this is all part of our valuation as we look at the new personal conduct policy.

we failed. the commissioner failed to impose the proper discipline in the ray rice case in the very beginning. >> but the question is whether or not the second video, how did you not know that? i mean, i assume that it was there. ray rice had it. >> senator, the first video, heartless, gutless, despicable. i don't think there was a need for a second video to impose the proper discipline. we failed in that particular area. the commissioner has acknowledged that, our office that, we made a critical mistake. >> so what efforts is the nfl making to ensure in the future that all the relevant available evidence is there before making a decision on whether and how to punish a player that's involved in a domestic violence or sexual assault case? >> well, i would begin, senator, with stating having the right people at the table, having the right voices to evaluate, to potentially investigate these

horrific crimes, i thought at the time, we know now that the right people weren't at the table. listening to our experts across the country we've learned that the right voices, the right discipline, the right process was not in place. we've learned from those mistakes. we've begun implementing at least at minimum having the right people, the right discussion, the right system, one, by protecting the victims first and survivors and then secondly working towards a fair process but firm discipline. >> when might we expect the moeller investigation to conclude? >> we're expecting that at any time. we've all been put on notice in our office, as mr. mueller gives us a call or he wants to speak, to be cooperative. but we're hoping that that ends -- we're expecting that report to come to some closure shortly. >> will that be a public report that will detail the results of

that investigation? >> i believe so. >> i just want to ask a question, and this would be of the players association reps, and i'll try in the interests to allow others to ask questions i'll make this sort. so the answer is yes or no. a lot has been focused on finding the right penalty for domestic violence, but would you agree that at its core the solution will require athletes to take responsibility for their own conduct and use the same self-discipline that has allowed them to excel at sports to renounce and end this ugly violence? to the player responsibility, ms. patterson. >> i would say that it's a multifaceted approach which includes personal accountability, but i do believe it also includes education, counseling, and some of the other efforts that ms. roberts specifically spoke about, particularly before players come

into the league. you know, we certainly acknowledge that accountability for your own actions is significant, but we do have to acknowledge that players are sons, they're brothers, they're fathers, husbands, and we just have to assist in that development. >> yes or no? >> i would say accountability is a very critical part of any solution. >> ms. roberts? >> i would concur with both responses, yes. >> i think players are and expect to be held accountable for their conduct in many ways. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. i'm just going to ask one question, not a second question. just one question. so everybody gets a chance to do so, then we'll have a second round if we're so lucky. this is directed to ms. behrens and ms. roberts. the nba's policy on domestic violence is a minimum ten-game suspension for felony violent acts. as i understand the policy, the

league does not impose penalties when there is no conviction. that becomes important. but many domestic violence cases do not result in conviction because of some of the factors, the culture of silence and all the rest of it, people withdraw, don't press or whatever, too often victims don't cooperate with law enforcement for a variety of reasons. so the charges are mysteriously dropped or defendants will plead no contest. when i hear "no contest," red lights go off in all directions. but this has a very different effect. in the last two years, i'm aware of six nba players who have been charged with domestic violence but the league did not impose any penalties because there have been no convictions. so my question to ms. behrens, ms. roberts, are you prepared to develop uniform policies for players that address conduct of players who have been charged with domestic violence but there have been no convictions? >> mr. chairman, i think we --

as i submitted to the committee, an opinion that the commissioner released about two weeks ago relating to the suspension of one of our players, and in that the commissioner acknowledged that we needed to do more in this issue in terms of discipline going forward both in terms of our due process and not really relying on the criminal justice system. one of the things that we learned from one of our experts and a number of other members talked about it, certainly senator mccaskill mentioned it, that domestic violence for too long has gone both underreported, underprosecuted and undersentenced. and we are committed to making sure that we're not just relying on the criminal justice system going forward and that we are independently investigating charges that might be brought against a player and as such are making sure that the commissioner who does have discretion beyond the ten games that you mention in the collective bargaining agreement does have discretion beyond that

to impose a suspension that is longer as we did in the recent case of jeff taylor. and so that is our plan going forward, that we will be doing independent investigations ensuring due process for our players and making sure that the suspensions are firm but fair. >> ms. roberts? >> what i would add, senator, is that in the existing cba there is, in fact, language that allows the commissioner, even in the absence of a conviction, if there is a reasonable basis to conclude that a player has been engaged in violence including domestic violence, counseling can be ordered and again, as kathy's mentioned, there is a basis to impose discipline. so it's, quote, unquote, in there. having said that, i agree with ms. behrens, we are continuing to have discussions about ways to tweak and improve our system to the extent there's any absence of sufficient transparency about there being the ability to impose fair discipline. >> so you're both indicating to me that you're moving away from the necessity for a conviction

before action can be taken? >> what i'm suggesting is that, as i said, there is language that does permit, if there's a reasonable basis to conclude that a player has engaged in violent conduct including domestic violence, subject to an investigation by the commissioner, if that's substantiated, there is an ability to exact a punishment. >> thank you. senator heller? >> thank you, mr. chairman, thank you for holding this hearing. also to our witnesses that are here today, thank you for taking time. ms. patterson, most of my questions will be directed towards you. yesterday "the washington post" reported that the nfl and the players associations are still at odds regarding changes to the personal conduct policy and how players' discipline is handled. is that accurate? >> i would say yes. >> it is accurate? >> that's correct. >> also in the article, the union has taken the position that a player should have the right to determine whether they play or not after an incident like domestic violence or sexual assaults take place. is that also accurate?

>> i wouldn't say that's accurate generally. >> can you be more specific? >> well, it's hard with a hypothetical. i don't -- >> can you be more specific? >> well, it's hard with a hypothetical. i don't -- >> i'm just taking the article. >> right. >> is it true that the union's position is that a player should determine for themselves under certain incidents like domestic violence or sexual assault take place, determine for themselves whether or not they should play? >> no, i would not say that's accurate. >> what is accurate? >> that we want to have confidence in a process in terms of discipline if an incident does occur, and we would like to collectively bargain with the league on how that discipline is applied. >> so you're saying that the article in "the washington post" is inaccurate? >> i'm saying the question that was posed, and it sounds narrowly such because i'm not familiar with the article and nor was i asked to be a part of it, but i'm saying that that part that you just asked me about is inaccurate.

>> i'm just trying to get to the point as to whether or not the players association is saying it's okay to knock out a woman with one punch on wednesday and still suit up for a team on sunday? >> absolutely not. we do not condone domestic violence. i stated that earlier and i will keep stating it. what we do is defend players and we defend the process. >> wasty 12-game suspension appropriate for knocking out his fiancee with one punch in the ray rice case? >> i don't know that that was appropriate. what we think is unfair is inconsistency in handling of players and their issues. >> what would be appropriate -- you're eluding the questions. what would be an appropriate suspension for an individual that knocks out his wife? >> senator, i apologize for appearing to elude the questions but i just have to respectfully say that the union is not in the business of applying discipline. we're in the business of representing our membership to

the full extent of their rights both under the law and under the collective bargaining agreement. >> i would tend to disagree, ms. patterson, you're either for stopping -- you're either for stopping sexual assault, domestic abuse and child abuse, or you're not. >> right, but i'm not suggesting that we're condoning any sort of misconduct. >> let me ask you this. let me ask you this question. do you believe sexual assault, domestic violence and child abuse are far more important than the union's issue with collective bargaining? >> i would agree that they're far more important, but that's outside the scope of what we're talking about in terms of labor. i agree that societal issues are more important, yes. >> mr. chairman, i have no more questions. >> you've done a very good job on the ones you've asked. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank you. i grew up with professional sports. we actually -- i think i'm the only senator up here that has all four teams in these leagues in their state. i'm not competitive.

but -- and my dad, as many of you may know is a sports writer and then became a general columnist. and i literally would get -- he would get an extra ticket to the nfl game and i would go watch him when i was 1 years old and stand outside the locker room and wait for him. and he would be the last one out and there would be some rather inebriated fans as we left. and he's only 5'6" but they'd tap him on the back and say great game. and he would always say, it was a team effort. and i always have looked at sports that way. and i look at it from another way, and that is a prosecutor for eight years, knowing what it's like when our office took on a very difficult case against the late kirby puckett, who is an icon in our state. we did not win that case, but i could understand that culture and how difficult it is to win those cases in the court of law. so i appreciate the questions that were asked about discipline beyond the courtroom. i also understand what it's like

to take on domestic violence cases. mr. vincent, in our office, we had a poster outside of my door, and it was a woman with a band-aid on her nose and she was holding a little boy and the words under the poster said, beat your wife and it's your kid that will go to jail. and i so appreciated your personal story and your willingness to stop that cycle of violence in your own life, and i know how difficult that is, so thank you very much. my question is really about how to make sure that these criminal cases move forward. i was disturbed by reports in "the new york times" and "the washington post" that leagues or teams may be discouraging women that come forward to them, wives or partners of players, from going forward to law enforcement. the only way you stop this cycle is not only what i hope you are all doing with your new approach to these issues is having tough penalties, but i also think you have to make sure that people are not discouraged from going forward. i would just like to ask this question of the four league

representatives that are here, and that is that do your teams ever discourage people that come to them, the owners or the coaches, from going forward with domestic violence cases to law enforcement? and do you have a policy in place? and can you control these owners or coaches from doing that to make sure going forward that this does not happen again? i would start with you, mr. vincent. >> well, senator, we hope that that doesn't occur. and that's the culture that we have to break, that's the cycle that we have to break as we look at implementing our new policy. we've been talking about person accountability. we've also been talking extensions ively about club accountability. we want to make sure that the victims and survivors actually have the proper support, that these women, these children, that we can break that silence. that they have a place that they can go to, they have support confidentially, that they're safe when they go home. we've embedded ourselves with

our critical response teams and making sure the local support is in place, but for -- >> but just this one -- i have a very focused question about not stopping people from going forward to law enforcement. not discouraging them from going to -- from discouraging them. do you have -- is there a way to control the coaches and the team owners by saying, you cannot do that, if someone comes forward, you have to encourage them to go to law enforcement. >> yes, ma'am. and part of our education, that's something we're educating on. >> thank you, thank you very much. mr. torre. >> yes, senator, i wholeheartedly agree with you on not discouraging the victims from coming forward, because that would be the worst thing that could happen. and i hope it doesn't happen in our sport because i know winning games are very important, but to me, being a good human being certainly surpasses that. >> and is there a policy in place --

>> well, we are discussing with the players association -- >> why would the players association influence whether or not you tell someone to not go forward to law enforcement? >> no, i misunderstood that. there's no question -- >> -- that's negotiable issue. >> our teams, and we have general managers meetings, and owners meetings and i speak to every manager. and it's about doing things the right way and certainly being a human being. >> thank you. >> i went overboard. >> no, no, i appreciate that. i just think you got to think of this different than the collective bargaining issue. >> no question. >> this is moving forward with a criminal investigation. ms. berens. >> senator, yes, we are, in fact, as part of our education efforts doing enhanced training for our team staff. and one of the things that we're making very clear is not only are we saying not to discourage, but we're encouraging and making sure that teams are being

proactive in this space. and our first line is support victims first and we're making that clear. >> ms. berman? >> i'm unaware of any discouragement and, to the contrary, we have a system in place where the nhl's centralized security department has contacts at every local team where if something like that was going on, i would hope we'd be hearing about it because it would certainly violate league policy. >> thank you. >> are you finished? >> yes. >> okay. senator schatz. >> no? >> just an order of appearance. >> sure.

>> chair, i defer to senator mccaskill. >> let me correct the record on the nba questions about punishment. i've looked at the articles and the seconds of counseling for violent misconduct. let me make sure the record is clear. the most a commissioner can do for violence without a conviction is counseling, isn't that correct, ms. behrens. >> no, senator, that's not correct. >> what can the commissioner do besides counseling if there's not a conviction? >> the commissioner has discretion under our collective bargaining agreement, which is the discretion that he used in the suspension of jeff taylor most recently, and that discretion and that happening was refers to the notion that

conduct that is detrimental to the league is not necessarily related to a violation or a conviction. >> thank you. i also handled domestic violence cases for many years, started the first domestic violence unit in kansas city and when i began that unit in the '90s, the detectives told me, well, you know, we really can't do these cases because victims won't come forward. victims refuse to testify. so why are you doing this? why are you making us go through the motions of trying to prosecute domestic violence? and i said, well, we better shut down the homicide unit. and they looked at me blankly. i said we don't have victims in homicide cases but we manage to put a case together based on an investigation as to what occurred, based on witnesses' testimony that witnessed the event, based on physical evidence, based on 911 call. one of the biggest problems you all have at large is this notion that you all can sit back and wait to see if there's, in fact, a criminal prosecution and

conviction, and i think you all know fundamentally the pressure that is brought to bear on that victim from the moment an arrest is made or from the moment the team finds out. because many time, you all know, you have a lot of off duty police officers that are huge fan and they work for you all. when they find out one of your guys are in trouble, i know this for a fact because when i was a prosecutor i got the call that chris carter was involved in something in westport, a big famous chief player and i immediately heard from the team. about what i should and shouldn't do with cris carter. before i'd even heard from the police department i heard from the team. so what we really have to do here is look to see what you are doing independently to investigate these cases. and independently determine what

the facts are because that's how the nfl got if trouble, mr. vincent, is you didn't see it -- roger goodell didn't see it as his responsibility to ask the question, is there another tape, and i need to see it before we do punishment. there was not a process in place. let me give you one example. i think we should say for the record, major league baseball commissioner bud selig has never sanctioned an mlb player for domestic violence. never. in 22 years. now, teams have. but at the commissioner level, that has never occurred. and i'm going to go through one example. francisco rodriguez. and this is based on -- by the way, i found all this just googling around on my ipad last night preparing for this hearing. this wasn't prepared by my staff. anybody could do this that just looked into rodriguez's record that's written in print. in 2005, based on sworn court testimony, he put a young lady

by the name of diane pena, he hit her so hard she was hospitalized in venezuela. he then convinced her to move to the united states with him, and in 2010 he assaulted her father at the mets stadium, pulling him out of the family lounge. at the time, carlos beltran said, well, this is bad. we all have problems at home, but you need to keep it at home. he was prosecuted for that. and during the prosecution of that, by order of protection entered to not contact the young lady or her father. he violated those orders of protection. this is in 2010, violated those orders of protection, was convicted of the assault of her father and given one year anger management. he then goes on to the milwaukee brewers. and in 2012 he's arrested. a 911 call at 2:40 in the morning and his girlfriend is

huddled in a closet at their home and tells everyone what has occurred -- excuse me that is my phone -- tells everyone what has occurred. they arrest him. she has -- there's staff there at the home who is also from venezuela. so what happens? the case is not prosecuted because guess where the victim and the housekeeper went? to venezuela. he then becomes a free agent and guess where he is back in 2014? he's back at milwaukee pitching and pitches in the all-star game. and nothing has ever happened to him in terms of baseball. now, i know i've taken all my time, but i wanted to get that story out there. what i would like for the record, and i'm going to stick around for another round if the chairman is willing to do it because i want to know from each of you, how serious is your league about an independent investigation into the facts or how content are you to sit back and go, well, maybe she won't go through with it, maybe she won't

come forward, and if there's not a conviction, we're off the hook? thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator mccaskill. senator schotz. oh, no, the votes start you think at 4:10? senator schatz >> my question is for mr. vincent. we know commissioner goodell recently changed the nfl's domestic violence policy to require a six-game suspension for first offenses. we also know that after he changed that policy, mr. goodell personally called ray rice. what was the content of that conversation? >> i wasn't aware of him calling mr. rice. >> this has been widely reported, and my understanding is that it was to reassure him that this would be applied prospectively rather than retroactively. and you're not aware of this?

>> no, sir. >> i'd like to offer you these questions and you can get back to the committee, because my question for you about that is is this normal? does the league consider this appropriate? does the commissioner as a general proposition interact directly with players who are subject to disciplinary proceedings or was this a one-off. i think it goes to the culture of what senator heller spoke of in his opening statement, get the player back on the field. your financial incentives are based on getting the player back on the field. i found it odd and i found nothing in your procedures that would indicate that it was appropriate for the commissioner of the football league to call an individual player to reassure him that everything was just fine. >> senator, i will investigate and get any information back to you. >> thank you. the nfl's handling of domestic violence is illogical, in my

opinion, especially when you look at the strict treatment of athletes who violate the drug policy. take josh gordon. mr. gordon was suspended for an entire season for testing positive for marijuana during the off-season. this imbalanced treatment actually happens all the time. espn analyzed cases and found -- a players found guilty of domestic violence between 200 and 2014 the analysis showed in 88% of the cases the nfl suspended players for only one game or not at all for domestic violence while in comparison in 82% of substance abuse cases the nfl handed out suspensions of four games or more. does the league consider that to be an inconsistency that has to be corrected going forward? >> yes, sir, senator. and that's one of the things that we've been looking at, that we've been evaluating. i think now our staffers, the commissioner, when you learn the complexities the and the severity of child abuse and domestic violence and sexual assault, we fail in that area to

punish, to hold one accountable. i know recently in the players association's most recent proposal, and this is one of the complexities that we have, when is it the appropriate time the take someone off the field? the most recent proposal said you need a conviction. we strongly disagree with that. we strongly disagree there needs to be a felony or conviction for us to remove someone off the field. >> where are the owners in all this? i know we've sort of touched upon this issue. but it seems to me in particular with the nfl, a lot of the leverage is with the individual teams and a lot of the difficulty is with the individual teams. the teams are represented, if i'm not mistaken, at this table. i'm wondering what leverage you think the nfl can exercise with respect to its interactions with the owners. because certainly in the ray rice case, the problem was systemwide, but in particular with the baltimore ravens as an organization. and i'm wondering how those interactions are going.

i think senator heller are referring to the collective bargaining process. that's part of it. but really a lot of the challenges that the financial incentives of the owners are to get the player back on the field and figure that the fans will forgive them in the end. >> yes, in our last two owners meetings, we have one coming in the next few weeks, has been our discussion is the u.n. formty, to make sure we're consistent with the penalty process and how we -- the next few weeks, is the uniformity, to make sure we're consistent with penalty process. >> so what leverage are you prepared to exercise in your actions with the owners? because i understand that by revenue, the owners are bigger than the league, and i'm wondering what you're prepared to do to try to get the owners to participate in this system of accountability? >> we're looking at all options. one of the things when we start talking about club accountability, maybe the removal of draft picks. you know, you have to do things to really hit the club, to hold

the clubs accountable, but all things are on the table. we're discussing all options to make sure that everyone's held accountable, the player, the staff, local law enforcement that's working with the team as well as the clubs themselves. >> thank you very much. >> i'm going to go vote. is that a quorum call? i can't see. it has not been called yet. who is next? senator walsh. >> this question is for you. you and your wife founded the safe at home foundation to educate young people about domestic violence, proactive approaches to end the cycle of domestic violence your association are critical. thank you for you and your wife for taking that on. can you tell us what preventing domestic violence before it starts and what can be incorporated from your foundation into the leagues?

>> well, i just feel our safe at home foundation -- when we first started the foundation, we were deciding on which way to approach because growing up in that environment, i really didn't find out until later on in life that a lot of my insecurities came from what was going on in my home, where my dad was abusing my mom. and having been a child growing up that way, i was lucky. i got to play baseball, so i had a place to hide. not a lot of youngsters are that lucky. so when we first started, i went to a middle school and started talking to youngsters, not about baseball. i said, we'll talk about baseball in a minute but i want to explain this camera crew behind me because we were going to have our first gala. and in speaking to the youngsters about what was going on in my home, i looked out there and six or seven of them are shaking their heads like this. in other words, we struck a nerve. the most important thing, we

have a master level counselor in each one of our rooms. we named them after my mom, margaret's place. we let the kids know that, first of all, it's not their fault and they're not the only ones going through this. when i grew up, i thought i was the only one. i was embarrassed it to share with anybody. we had a number of -- as i said earlier, close to 50,000 youngsters that have come through our programs, we have peer leadership programs. we just don't reach enough kids.

>> thank you, senator walsh. senator ayotte. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> excuse me. >> one thing i wanted to note up front is that all of you are here, we're appreciative that all of you are testifying today, but commissioner goodell, commissioner selig, commissioner silver, commissioner bettman were all asked to be here. i do think it's convenient that none of them were able to be here today. it does say something about where does the level of commitment come?

because i think they should all be here today. while i'm appreciative that you've been willing to appear in their stead, i think that does say something about how big of a commitment is there going to be on this? and that goes to the leaders as well to take responsibility for what happens here. i want to associate myself with the comments of senator mccaskill because you do need to establish an investigative process for these cases that do not result in criminal conviction. and this is imperative because you have to hold yourselves to a higher standard, and the bottom line is that in many of these cases victims are not going to come forward because of the financial pressure that they face, the social pressure that they face and the terror that they face, but that does not alleviate your responsibility to get the facts, to look at the

evidence and to still impose discipline even if a victim is too terrified to come forward. in the same regard, i wanted to follow up on senator klobuchar's questions about the reports of victims who are being encouraged or, perhaps, discouraged not to come forward, or in the instance that senator mccaskill gave where one was actually flown to another country. i believe as you look at your sanctions because that's what this is, witness tampering. if you put those sanctions in place will make very clear that if someone is a victim of domestic or sexual violence, that neither the coaches nor the

players nor anyone else should be interfering with their ability to come forward or interfering with the way they need to feel safe. i wanted to ask specifically a follow-up question on an issue. as i look to you, ms. roberts and to ms. patterson, one of the things that i'm concerned about as i've listened to the testimony today is that in terms of the players' side of this, that they not hide behind the collective bargaining process or agreement when it comes to basic responsibility for not committing crimes. because this is what they are, crimes. crimes of violence against women, sexual violence against women, or as we have seen in some instances, violence against

children. and so as i look at -- i want to use an example, ms. roberts, the recent situation of the imposition of discipline against jeff taylor for the -- who's a charlotte hornet player. i understand he received a 24-game suspension for a conviction for domestic violence for beating a girlfriend. and what i saw was the union complain that that suspension was excessive. as i understand it, the player himself has accepted this suspension. i have to say your response or the union's response to say that this was excessive, to me, highlights the problem that we're facing. and it's disgusting to me that you would say that that's excessive. so, i want you to address that. >> sure. >> what do we do in those situations? why do you believe that was excessive? and if we're going to get at

this issue, this has to be the players and the responsibility of the officials in the league and the owners and everyone has to have a hand at this. so i'd like to know what you were thinking -- or not you particularly, but the union. >> i'm happy to answer your question, senator. let me be clear. the players association was not for one second suggesting that some punishment was not warranted. of course, it was warranted and we expected the commissioner to impose punishment and he did. our position was simply that we have a cba, which we believed -- we have disagreement about this, that had precedent to indicate that that was an excessive punishment. the commissioner when he imposed the punishment acknowledged it was a significant departure from prior punishments. so again, our position was that the cba required us to collectively bargain if there was going to be some imposition of punishment that belied the cba. having said that, the player was never discouraged from accepting responsibility.

it was his dire -- his right to grieve or not to grieve. he chose not to grieve. i said to him to his face and behind his back and i'll say it again, we absolutely endorse his decision to take responsibility for what he did and the matter has been closed. my only point, senator, is this, while we all agree, and we do all agree that this is very serious business and we need to take it seriously, we don't believe that we need to at the same time abandon due process. and that's the only point. that doesn't mean 24 games may not be appropriate under certain circumstances. it only meant within the four corners of the cba, it did go beyond the scope. i don't want you, senator, or anyone to assume that the national basketball players association does not take this seriously. we do. i have spent the last two weeks visiting with 9 of my 30 teams. i intend to see the rest of them in the next two months. and every time i meet with them, i make clear to them that we

will not tolerate this kind of conduct. it's not the nfl problem. it's our problem as well. i don't want our position on the jeff taylor matter in any way confuse our commitment to making sure that this thing goes away. my only final point i'd make is this -- >> no, i'm sorry, your time is over. >> then i guess i won't. >> senator blumenthal is next. i'm going to go vote.'e+6 senator cat cantwell is going to chair. i'll be back and let's just work it out. we have to keep it going. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you for having this hearing. i want to join in expressing my admiration for your proceeding in spite of the obstacles that have been raised. thank you for all being here. we have some sports heroes here and we have some professional legal hero, and i'm grateful for each of you for coming to talk to us today. but i want to talk about the people who are not here, the owners. and in a certain sense, they are the bosses. they are going to be the ones who make the ultimate decision.

let's just talk the realities here. and the financial reality is that words and promises are a lot more difficult than action. and i'm looking for a way to impose accountability beyond a hearing, beyond negotiations and accountability that means something in dollars and cents. right now, the professional leagues represented here are not only the object of public scrutiny, they are the beneficiary of huge benefits in the form of tax breaks, subsidies for teams and stadiums, as well as chief among them, the anti-trust exemption. today i am proposing that we end the blank check to the leagues, the anti-trust exemption, that has enabled the leagues to successfully negotiate together, as no other corporations in the united states would be permitted

to do under anti-trust laws, for literally billions of dollars. and that anti-trust exemption should be contingent on doing the right thing. really acting, not only talking about acting, but doing it. ed by acting, i mean investigating comprehensively and aggressively, imposing sanctions as a consequence of that investigation, adopting a due process that has been so sorely lacking. and mr. vincent is the reason why the league was so embarrassed because there is -- there was no process, as ms. patterson has also observed. and maybe most important looking forward, and really it hasn't been mentioned here, aid to the organizations and groups that provide assistance to the survivors and victims of domestic violence within your

leagues, in your families and across the united states. i want to thank mr. torre for his example because i think men have a vital role, which is the reason why your players can be such role models, such positive role models, for others. and why the leagues can be such positive role models in providing tangible financial assistance, which you have not yet done for all the talk here to the advocacy group and organizations that are so pivotal in fighting domestic violence. so, i'm asking for a commitment that you will support this accountability and that you will support the groups that assist victims and survivors. in the interest of time, i'm going to ask, is there anyone here who would not make that commitment? by the absence of a response,

i'm going to assume that you would agree with me that that kind of commitment is important and necessary. you've begun doing it, but i'm not asking you to continue what you have done, but for a substantial increase in that assistance to the hot lines and the shelters and all the service groups, and i hope that you will all join in that commitment. let me ask, mr. vincent, what is the timeline for you -- for the league to adopt a process for imposing punishment within the nfl? >> the commissioner had stated in his earlier press conference that he would like to have a new policy in place by the super bowl. that would be the latest. >> and what is the process that will provide for owners to approve that process?

>> next week we actually have our owners meeting where we will begin to talk about, again, some of the things we've learned. we've heard much about the process, accountability, so we're hoping to have within the next two weeks real clarity and the position on where we are as far as a firm process, a consistent and clear process moving forward. >> the bill that i have proposed would sunset professional sports league anti-trust agreements under the 1961 sports broadcasting act and the comparable provisions for the mlb one year after the bill's enactment, it would authorize a commission to provide a report to congress regarding the league's behavior in the interest of the public and it would allow congress to reauthorize exemptions every yñ commitments to aid public service organizations. how much is the nfl willing to commit to aid those organizations? >> well, we've made substantial

commitments. we've made five years commitments to both domestic violence hot line and -- >> what is the amount of those commitments? >> i think it's $4 to $5 million a year. >> you've made a commitment to the -- >> national domestic violence hot line. >> $5 million a year? >> yes, sir. we also -- >> would you be willing to make commitments of the same or comparable size to other organizations that do similar kinds of work? >> i cannot make that commitment today. >> who can make that commitment? >> senator -- i just want to make sure. we're trying to get the rest of the members in, so your time is expired. >> who can make that commitment? >> that's something we discuss as on entire team, we discuss with our experts. who are those leading organizations, the organizations at the grass root level that need the support to support our families, to support nfl personnel. so that's a collective decision that was made for us to support the national domestic violence hot line and the national sexual assault resource center. >> thank you very much to all of you. i'm time, my time expired.

>> senator booker? >> i just want to thank the ranking member saying wernd perhaps revisiting this after the new year when i assume you'll be chairperson because that issue of accountability keeps coming up, only could be held by this body should we have the chance to revisit this and see the progress that is going to be made. i'm going to go quickly because a volt has been called. you obviously, mr. vincent, are saying that you're seeking to held fund and a lot of the charity you numerated in your opening statement was about funding and supporting prevention, treatment, and the like. and that's true you see those organizations often need more resources, is that correct? >> yes, sir. a tax-exempt status, is that correct? the league. >> correct. >> does that hurt your financial bottom line? >> i don't think so.

>> i don't think so either. >> i think we're doing well. >>. >> mr. vincent, the congressional budget office says if we remove those teams, those leagues, unlike mlb, there's a of leagues including the nfl that have a tax-exempt status. the budget office says if we prove that status it would yield millions of dollars a year annually back to taxpayers. and so my question is to you, is understanding that these organizations need more funding, why does the nfl need a tax-exempt status when we could be redirecting the money to domestic violence prevention and treatment programs? >> well, what i would say, let me make it clear, all club revenue, all league -- >> you don't have to enumerate that for the record. i'm very familiar with individual teams' revenues. i'm simply asking you right now, have i to justify to my constituents why the nfl, this multibillion dollar

organization, has tax-exempt status. do you believe that unlike -- that just like the major league baseball, do you believe you ásh should have tax-exempt status? >> yes. rear ran like a trade association, very similar, our office. >> so you think you should continue to enjoy a tax exempt status that major league baseball does not have? >> no, it's not to enjoy. today that's how we're currently ran. our clubs, again, all revenue's taxed. senator, i saw your proposal. and i do believe that when we combine both public and private resources, we could fund the intervention and prevention, some of the things in your proposa proposal. this is how we both collectively, privately and public resources, we can make a difference in the area of domestic violence, sexual assault and child abuse. >> and$ and i appreciate the charity. my simple point is, are professional leagues that enjoy,

as the senator just said, exemptions to a lot of laws and enjoy tax-exempt status, simply should not enjoy a tax-exempt status. where that money that the congressional budget office could save taxpayers millions of dollars annually. that money could be used to invest in these programs that right now it seems we$k rely on the charity of the nfl. i don't think that's adequate. let me shift gears real quick. i feel very, very fortunate having played college football to have a lot of friends that have played in the nfl, played in the nba, and some friends that are still in the nfl and the nba. and i have been described to me incredible resources, player association is4ñ dazzling when they let the players know, we're here for you. there there hot lines. if you're stuck at a club and inebriated, can't get a ride, the nfl is there for you.

you can call. and the nba, this i know. thank you for shaking your head. >> yes, sir. >> and so one of the concerns i have, when it comes to calling that team for issues of domestic violence, that often the incentive, from my experience and what i know about my fellow -- my friends that are players -- forgive me, i only know the nba and nfl players, often the objects ive it so keep that player out of the news, to keep issues quiet and to me that works against ultimately what the goal is of -- when it comes to domestic violence, which is bringing light and attention to a problem. as opposed to creating an environment where it's swept under the rug. one of the big concerns i have is this rapid response that clearly we see that i know about personally, that that rapid response doesn't have two different objectives that are con temporary to actually dealing with the problem that

might be encountered. and i just like in the second that i have left, if you could give me assurances that what i know to be the case from friends who have played and are playing in the nfl and nba, that this system will be changed in way that puts the victim's needs and concerns and family situations ahead of that player's ability to remain on the field and the corporate interest that exists to keep that player being productive. >> yes. >> and i'd like both nba representatives and nfl representatives to do so, and i'm done. >> well, that is at the core of what we're talking about, what we've been evaluating, is to make sure the victims and the survivors have the support that they need. we recognize that we have to break the culture of silence.o< the programs that you mentioned, the last four years, that was my sole responsibility. player programs and services. it's a shared responsibility. those programs are put in place in collaboration with the players association to assist families. we want to encourage the

families to seek out proper help, proper assistance. i can assure you, moving forward in the area of domestic violence, assault and child abuse, that we want to make sure that we break that silence, that the victims and survivors are safe. >> i'll make the same assurance. part of our training and education program that we're roling out with our teams and have shared at the highest levels is to make sure that this is not something that is discouraged but encouraged both for people to get help, but also to report behavior that's in violation of certainly of any criminal law and any violation of the nba's codes of conduct. >> and just return to the chair, that's the accountability we need to make sure these systems are changing. i think it's ridiculous that the nfl and other sports teams enjoys tax exempt status. >> thank you, senator booker.

thank you for emphasizing that point because i won't have time for questions. i will just submit some questions for the record, but that particular issue is of interest to me and obviously the fact that the baseball association and basketball association don't enjoy that tax-exempt status and yet the nfl continues it. i guess my main point is, we saw this case with donald sterling, and we saw immediate and swift action. in fact, michael jordan praised the nba saying a powerful message was sent that there can be no tolerance, zero tolerance, for racism and hatred. so, it's clear that in some cases, these organizations can act swiftly and do act swiftly. the question is, in this issue of domestic violence, why you don't. and i think that what we're hearing from many of my colleagues today is what is the culture within these organizations that prevent it

from acting as swiftly as was in the case of donald sterling. so, i'm going to submit some questions for the record. but i also, too, want to be on the record that the nfl, i'm hearing from my constituents as i've raised this issue,ik relat to what is a very hateful name in association with the nfl, but my constituents are now just flabbergasted that the nfl continues to enjoy a tax-exempt status. for what purpose? and yet on these issues of having a name of hatred for a team name and then having these cases of domestic violence to say nothing of the incidents of what happened with players in florida, the nfl is not showing the leadership that i believe it should. it certainly doesn't deserve the tax-exempt status. i'm going to submit questions for the record and i want to

thank my colleague, senator mccaskill, for her leadership on this issue. and certainly want to work with her in her role as previously understanding these issues from a perspective of how we can get some cultural issues engrained into these institutions. so, i'm going to turn the gavel over to you and thank you. >> thank you. i'm going to state on the record here that i'm going to miss a vote. voting on right now. the record should reflect that. but i'm going to skip that vote because the questions that need to be asked here in the on a problem that's pervasive and important than one more vote in a confirmation that's going to occur with or without my vote. i'm going to stick around. >> thank you, madame chair. thank you all for being here. i'm going to limit my comments to the national football league. all of you, domestic violence is important.

you may not know this, but had it not -- i would have played in the nfl had it not been for the lack of my size, speed or talent, but that was my v[goal. i want to begin by saying, mr. vincent, i have the highest respect for you though we have never met. we have a lot of friends in common. your reputation among many in league circles is high as anyone i have ever heard. i remember drafting you in 1992 and sorry to see you leave in '94. in any event, i appreciate your service at both -- as a player for the nfl pa and now for the league. but i do want to make two points about the nfl that are important and then ask you this question. the nfl doesn't just play for three hours on sunday. monday and thursday nights. the nfl is a 24-hour, seven day a weekend defr that wants americans to admire and emulate the people it puts on the field. it wants our young people to

wear -- this is true of all the leagues but i want to focus on the nfl. they want young people to wear the shoes, wear their jerseys. use the same products. the league has established a contract with a provider and they want them to wear this. it's a 24-hour endeavor. this is an ongoing endeavor. it wants young people to look up to these athletes, and they do. being involved in youth football, this is very sad, but it is true in some instances. some of the only positive male 6 role models that many young americans today have happen to be the professional athletes they'd see on sundays or at nights on television in any of your leagues. so i think it's important to preface this. this is not just a sport that's played on a field three hours at a time. this actually has deep impacts throughout society. and there are millions of young -- especially young boys but young americans who look up

to these players. and whatever happens or does not happen with them has a deep impact on them. because for many of them, it's the only male role model they have nir lives, unfortunately, and in cases where people go wrong. and that's why the ray rice case so interested me. because the situation with mr. rice involved someone that my son actually personally admired. my sons came to admire ray rice because -- i'm getting deep in the weeds here -- but one of my sons kind of plays a hybrid running back position. he's not the tallest kid on the team, but he's very quick. he looked for someone on the national football league who had the same attributes and that was ray rice. he really looked up to him. a few weeks ago he wanted to know why isn't ray rice playing? i had to explain to him why ray rice wasn't playing. the impact of that was extraordinary. he's too young to fully understand. what happened or didn't happen with him had an impact on him and other young people across america because it served as an example of what happens in society and in life when someone

does the wrong thing. that's why i'm so interested in that case. beyond the horrifying instance that happened. my understanding from the testimony i watched on television a few minutes ago is that you stated that the commissioner nor the league had ever seen the elevator video, but that it didn't need to because in essence, everything that happened in that elevator that the video showed had already been admitted to and testified to by mr. rice. is that correct? >> yes. if i can, senator, again, the commissioner had stated that he had not yet seen the video. and as i mentioned earlier, i think anyone, any one of us who had witnessed that, you know, saw that despicable act -- mr. rice -- whatever we saw on the video and it's certainly a horrifying video to watch, but he basically had told the commissioner, whatever that video showed, he admitted to. is that correct? >> yes. >> so basically not having seen the video is the same as having seen it in this instance. that's what you have said here today.

you didn't need to see the video because they already knew what happened. >> senator, as i acknowledged in the beginning, we made a mistake. >> i guess i'm trying to understand the process by which -- may have explained this already. what is the process -- because i know what would have happened for ray rice had he tested positive for marijuana. i know what would have happened to ray rice had he tested positive for steroids or epinephrin or sudafed without a doctor's note. is this a completely ash tear process where the commissioner assigns punishment based on how he feels or is this a set model in place for what an action equals -- admitted action? mr. rice fully admitted what he did and described it to8[ the extendu4

extent. >> senator, we failed to imposz the proper -- >> what is the process in place well, but at the time, what was the process if someone came forward, admitted what had we saw on the video, they had5^r punched their fiancee in the face, in an elevator, how does the commissioner decide the punishment? time, what was the process if someone came forward, admitted they punched their fiance in the face in an elevator, by what measure did the commissioner decide? why three games instead of ten? was it fully just arbitrary or was there something he looked to? >> he looked back to some of the past cases when he's actually tried to impose harsher discipline. it was appealed and knocked down. that shows the severity of what we know about these crimes. he went back and -- >> appealed to an arbitrator? >> the players association appeals those -- appealed that offense. the discipline that was handed out in the past was appealed and knocked down. >> so your testimony that if a

player comes forward and says to the league, i just punched my fiancee in the face and knocked her áéw discipline. our august 28th letter to both the owners and also the players.

>> my time is up. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. first, i wanted to comment. i have never seen so many women representing major league sports in this country at a moment of high-profile importance for the leagues. and i think it's a good thing. i think it's terrific, and i would tell all of you to go back to the organizations you represent and say that you need to be at the table more often, not less often. but i don't think i ever recall seeing this many women representing professional sports at a moment like this in our country's history, so i wanted to make note of that. first, i had a question to the national hockey league. in reading about the suspension of the player that occurred recently, i think he's a defenseman for the kings. i won't try to pronounce his name. i noticed in the article that

the team was complaining because his salary was going to continue to count against the salary cap while he was punished. i found that interesting because it creates a financial incentive for the team to not punish. so my question to you, yes or no, does the league favor removing a salary counting against the salary cap during a time of suspension? >> initially -- sorry. when suspension was imposed, it was determined by the league office that the suspension should be with pay, so while the team continues to pay the player, that money counts against the team's salary cap. subsequently, we reached an agreement with the union to change the treatment for the team's perspective for -- with a host of conditions so that it's

no longer counting against the cap. >> so are you saying, and is this true with all of you that have caps, that when someone is suspended for misconduct with pay, that that pay counts against the salary cap so the team is, in fact, being financially punished for doing the right thing? >> well, this wasn't discipline that was imposed by the team. with all due respect, it was imposed by the league. so the team doesn't have an incentive one way or the other to act or not act. >> but the team could impose it and wouldn't it still count against their salary cap? >> only if they were choosing to pay the player during the discipline. >> okay. well, is that true with the other leagues? does the -- if someone is suspended with pay, does that count against salary caps? >> we just had our last two when we look at the adrian peterson and greg hardy, they were put on the commissioner's exempt list, the team was penalized. there's a salary cap. it's an example of pay leave. so the team is actually being punished because that is a cap

hit. >> well, i think you all ought to look at that. you need to remove every disincentive there is to punish players who have bad conduct. and, you know, if a team is something to have the money count against the salary cap even when the player is not playing, then that's going to weigh in favor of a much shorter suspension for the team-imposed discipline. so, i'll follow up with qfrs on that. do any of you have a process in place now to independently investigate the facts? >> yes, senator, i'll answer that question. i think as we talked about our recent case involving the player jeffrey taylor, we immediately commenced an independent investigation. retained two outside counsel, including two former prosecutors. one of whom had extensive history in dealing with the domestic violence.

>> yes for the nhl. >> under the cba, we do. >> your own investigators? they are pulling records, pulling 911 tapes, all of that? >> yes, we have an internal process for conducting investigations on all misconduct. yes. >> and torre, by the way, i can't let the hearing be over. i don't know if they put you hear because they know how much all of us in st. louis adore you. but as you noticed -- >> i was fired. >> that always happens. after you leave, the affection resurfaces, right? i wanted to get that in. as a huge cardinal fan, you were a huge part of our organization in many different ways. does mlb have an independent investigation process? >> yes, we do. it's not my department, but we do have a department of investigation. >> i would like to know what happened on the investigation on the rodriguez case. i would like to know what the outcome of that investigation was. i would like to know if they ever asked mr. rodriguez if he paid the plane ticket for the victim and the witness to go

back to venezuela. >> i'd have to get that information. >> thank you. does the nfl have its own independent investigation? >> yes, ma'am, we do so with our security department, our internal security department. >> how many of you, yes or no, have an independent program for just wives and significant others where the players are not allowed to attend? whether it is a confidential, here are the issues you're going to face, here are phone numbers you can call if you're in financial stress, here are phone numbers you can call if you've been abused, here are places you can go for help. how much you have an independent program like that for spouses and significant others. >> yes, we do in the nfl. >> yes? >> yes. >> mlb? >> excuse me. some teams have them. uniformly, we don't all have them, but it's something we're developing at this point. >> okay. i'll follow up with more questions with that because i

want to make sure you get it. yes? >> yes, i think as michelle roberts explained earlier, we in the players association have been meeting with our family organizations to determine the best ways we can provide resources you don't have an indt one now? >> no. >> in some of the articles i read the women were saying there was no place for us to go. the teams weren't calling us. the teams weren't reaching out to us. it was all about the players. what about nhl? >> our program extends to the players' families and historically our program doctors have been accessed by players, spouses and significant others. >> do you have a program for initiation into the league, when someone comes? is there a program for the spouse of a player? >> to the extent they exist, they would be at the team level. >> what about mandating reporting to law enforcement? do any of you have a policy at the league level that a coach is

required or an assistant, any team personnel is required if they learn of conduct by a player that is illegal in terms of a felony assault or any assault that you are required to report that to law enforcement? >> yes, ma'am, we have that in place. >> so right now if a coach -- if a player calls his coach and says, i just -- i was drunk, got in a fight with my wife, popped her in the face, i just left the house, she's called 911, when he calls that coach under the nfl policy, is that coach then required to pick up the phone and call the police? >> that coach is required to do so, yes, ma'am. >> has a coach ever failed to do that? how long have you had that policy? >> it's been in place for some time now. i can't tell you the number of years, but he is required to call. >> okay. i would like to know how many times coaches have called. that's a question i will have for the record. i don't have time to ask all of

you that, but i will for the record. you get my drift. you all can -- listen, i think all of you are terrific people and want to do the right thing. but you've got to understand that the status quo is not acceptable, that turning the other way and thinking that this problem is being handled by these players and their families out of the light, many, many, many families are sufficieering. i think you know that in your hearts. i will keep following up. there will be more accountability in the future. will have questions for the record. thank you for being here. i will turn the hearing over to mr. rubio for more questions. if you finish your questions and senator rockefeller is not here, you need to recess because he is coming back? no? no. you can gavel out. aim going to go vote now. thank you. >> i won't keep you. but i did want to give you, miss patterson, the opportunity to respond. mr. vincent in his answer to my

question outlined the role the nfl played in accusing players accused of domestic violencviol. what's the -- mr. rice came forward and admitted to the facts to such an extent that we have heard here today that the league didn't even need to see the video to know what happened. they learned nothing new from the video they didn't already know. in a case like that, what is the nfl-pa's role in supporting the player? what role do they play in that process? >> first of all, the players have the option to have us in attendance if they have a meeting or a conversation with the commissioner. so we support them in that way. if a player chooses to grieve or appeal after discipline has been handed down, such as in the ray rice case, we prepare that appeal and represent the player on appeal. i think it's worth noting for the record, for under the personal conduct policy, that appeal goes back to the

commissioner for his review of his own decision. so that is what was different in the ray rice case because we fault for neutral arbitration. >> when these instances in the past where a player -- mr. vincent outlined the reality where in the past -- his testimony was that the commissioner felt limited by the punishment he could apply to mr. rice because of previous instances where he had instituted a punishment and it had been successfully appealed. who were those instances success it willy fully appealed to? >> yes. the one that comes to mind is the brandon marshal. >> which? the one with the -- down in south florida with his wife? >> yes, sir. and the suspension that was imposed was three games, and it was appealed and knocked down to

two. >> that suspension was appealed to an independent arbitrator? >> yes -- no, back to the commissioner. >> the commissioner lowered his own decision? >> it was actually -- it was appealed. the pa appealed it and the -- i'm sorry, in this particular case, a neutral arbitrator knocked it down to two games. >> from three. so based on the brandon marshal incident, which i recollect was where his wife was arrested by law enforcement authorities in that case, because he had been stabbed in the stomach with the end of a bottle or something, my understanding is she was the one that had been arrested in that case, although, the facts now have turned to eed out to be di. he stated she was not at fault. in that case, the commissioner's punishment was three games but on appeal, they lowered it to two games. do you know that that's the instance that was on his mind when he settled on the suspension for -- >> i wasn't involved in the ray

rice situation. >> what is it that the nfl pa looks at? at what -- does the nfl pa have a criteria where it thinks you go too far in punishing because they punch their fiancee in the face? >> we don't have criteria. first, we have to see what the player wants to do. if the player wants to appeal, no matter what our advice is, we have a duty to do so. we represent him in that appeal and we move forward. in the rice case, it wasn't a matter of the length of the suspension. it was the arbitrariness of the second suspension. we felt that mr. rice was in a double jeopardy situation at that point because there was no new evidence that had emerged. so there are different grounds in each case. i hate to say that it's case by case, but unfortunately -- >> i understand the distinction in the sense he had received one suspension and when the video came out ou, they added an

additional punishment. i understand that. my question is, if tomorrow morning we awaken to a new ray rice-type case, and a player decides to appeal, i guess your argument is that the nfl pa has the same obligations that a lawyer has to a client irrespective their personal views? >> that's correct. >> what we don't have is a precedent in which we know that at some point there is an appropriate suspension that is unappealable? we don't have that set yet? that's what you are working on now? >> yes, sir. that's exactly what we're working on is a criteria. the commissioner spelled that out in his letter, a minimum with aggravating factors that will allow him to impose more harsh and severe discipline. >> i would just like to say, again, some of the earlier points, we would like that policy to be collectively bargains. one of the senators said we know what happens if a player has

marijuana in his system or we know what happens if basically if there's a drug policy violation. this is one of the reasons why, because there is inconsistency, because is there no standard, because neither one of us can give you a criteria for what happens next, that's why this needs to be bargained. >> there are players that because they have used performance enhancing drugs that some instances involved cold medicine that they took without documenting appropriately, they are suspended for more games than mr. rice and that's why the public says, this doesn't make sense to us. i want you to know -- the nfl nature of it is because i'm more familiar with that league than other leagues, to be clear, i think it's -- to be talked about in the days to come and something the league will have to deal with is the fact that your statement here today that the commission myr

the commissioner knew what happened, that's problematic moving forward. many of my colleagues are concerned about that statement as well, because i think some of the perception early on was that -- i was under this perception that mr. rice had not been accurate and honest with the league about what he had done but in fact today the testimony has been that the league fully understood what he had done because he -- there's nothing that we see in that video that he hadn't already told people about and despite that the sentence that was handed down or the punishment handed out was so limited -- you admitted to the fact that the league -- the league admits that the punishment was not strong enough. it's problematic for -- >> senator, let me be -- make sure that i am firm and correct on what i -- accurate on what i said. no one needed to see, again, the commissioner had stated he had not seen the second video. he acknowledged his mistakes on not handing out the proper discipline on the initial round. >> i understand. and i guess my point on that is

that your statement is he didn't need to see the video because he already knew what had happened? >> that's my opinion. i think that's the general public's opinion. >> okay. all right. i appreciate all of you being here today. i know it's been a long hearing. do we have a script for the comments after, questions? the record will be open for two weeks. with that, the hearing is adjourned.