tv Politics Public Policy Today CSPAN December 8, 2014 3:00pm-5:01pm EST
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disappear. ebola if there is one case that is out there, that can ignite another explosion. it's one of the unusual diseases that you have to put every ember and spark out. we are far from that right now. >> thank you. tony spent his career engaged in addressing infectious diseases. the president called you and said you need to help us develop our national response. how did you come to terms with the challenges that you faced in this new role? tell us about the learning curve and how you were able to close. what have been your experiences in six weeks on the job. >> so when the president asked me to come do this, i was
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minding my own business and teaching a course here in georgetown. it's good to see my students here in the front row. i think that the president asked me to do this with other complex projects and most recently when we did the recovery act in the first two years of the administration. he said to try to coordinate. we have every single federal agency working on some element of fighting ebola here at home or overseas. for me, i have been able to climb the learning curve and sylvia burr well at hhs. my objective is to make sure they are workinging to and we are reallocating resources and
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getting decisions quickly from the president and making the difficult spoiss that need to be made. the thing that has been surprising me, but humbling to me is the vast array of people who are acting to fight this disease every single day. we are sitting here today and my favorite spots on planet earth and there hundreds of volunteer workers in community care centers and liberia and sierra leone who take voluntary leave to fight this disease and put themselves at risk and doing the most important work that can be done to battle this and the chance to meet with them and do whatever i can to facilitate is
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the most humbling and most important part of the job. >> maybe you can take us deeper into the perfect storm. where why things appearing to stabilize and look like they are on the increase in guinea and sierra leone. what can we understand about the nature of this that explains it? >> what this brings out and i hope if there is something good that comes out of this is a realization of how when you do not have a minimal health care infrastructure how vulnerable you are to so many things. then when something like a highly lethal disease inserts itself into the community, do you realize how that lack of infrastructure and ability to do
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just minimum health care delivery can be so instructive to a society. what i hope comes out of this is a realization by the countries themselves and the world that wealthy countries and the organizations to realize how we can build sustainable infrastructu infrastructure. you heard ron and i and tom freeden and sylvia and others say not in a cavalier way that it isifily unlikely. you don't say impossible. highly unlikely that we would have an ebola outbreak of any significance in the united states. the reason is because we have a health care system that won't allow that to happen. so one of the things that is so important for the world to realize, we will end this outbreak in west africa in
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collaboration with our west african-americans. this would be a terrible thing if we let the opportunity go by without saying we need to leave an infrastructure or the beginning of a direction to not only prevent ebola, but what about malaria? tuberculosis. there things that i wouldn't say easily, but can be addressed with a modest turning of the knob. it's amazing how many people we are following that we want to make sure they don't have ebola that have malaria. it hits you right between the eyes that it is taken so for granted and kills close to 700,000 people a year, almost all of which are african babies.
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we have to realize that. >> building on what tony said, one of the other tragedies such as they were, the level of immunization plummeted to near and the level plummeted dramatically. i had the honor and the sad duty of speaking at the funeral last week. he was a missionary physician who was not treating ebola patients, but died from ebola because the level of infection is so high. so when we count the number of deaths from ebola in these countries, we need to count the other human loss in the countries from the rise of other health care problems. that's one point. i'm sure we will talk about this more, but the president committed a request and we are brightful from both republicans
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and democrats for their response to this. part of that is an investment and security agenda to detect outbreaks like this earlier and get on top of them earlier so you don't see the escalation we saw in the three nations. >> this is building on that point. the first death i believe was a year ago tomorrow. as we were describing through the course of the spring and the summer, they began to climb. what have we learned about the capacities for global governance. it took time for us as a global community to respond effectively. >> well, ron just mentioned the global health security agenda. if we had that a jepta to
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recognize the first cases in begin in december of 2013, i would say with some degree of confidence, we would have been able to do the kind of identification, isolation and contact tracing that could have put that out. >> let me ask you, what are the tool it is we have available to us for constructing a global security agenda. what resources or institutional structures. where do we go to put this in place? >> i think we have to work with the who and other organizations. they are important for all of this. but i think that in this case, america has to lead and has led. i think it's led for three
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reasons. this is a health problem for the united states too. as long as people are getting ebola, we will have people get ebola in the united states. not an outbreak or epidemic, but occasional cases for health care workers coming back. this is a problem for us. secondly, it's a geopolitical and national challenge to see this devastation and loss to us, that's something we have to respond to. it's a humanitarian crisis to see this loss of and devastation. the united states has led this response which had great papers and great response from the united kingdom and france and non-traditional partners. they had the largest response to this crisis. doctors in cuba. it has been a global response, but i think our american people
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can take pride in. >> if there were other elements like this from a noble perspective, are they needed or existing elements in the structure that need to be used more effectively or efficiently? >> we need to expand what we have. you cannot under estimate what it means to have a country be able to do it themselves ultimately. the classic example of that and it was really almost the foundation for so many other things, including what we developed. many dpeem this well, but what the farmers did in haiti and rwanda, you don't go in and help people and get out, you go in and train people and you make a situation there where they will stay, they will teach others and
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it will become a self sustaining issue. you do it and you train someone and they do it and train someone. we had that experience in a positive way 30 years ago when i was director. we set up a unit of exchange back and forth in mali. we had trained people who were global health students who came in to the nih and we went there. that turned out to be interesting because it focused just on malaria. now the people who were trained there and who trained people who trained people and on and on, in that area, they have an infrastructure that made it easy. they never would have been able to do that if they didn't have that. we need to continue to make it
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sustainable in the countries that are involved. >> there is a bit of a mismatch, 17,000 cases in west africa and 11 in the u.s. yet the public discourse in the days before your appointment, what have we learned about how difficult it is to engage in public communications like risk like this? >> it's understandable when people hear about things that are new and dangerous that we never experienced to react with trepidation about that. i think the best thing we can do in the face of that anxiety is to respond promptly with an aggressive response. a response based on science and medicine and the best possible learning we have about this. our country was very, very luck tow have tony fauci.
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he won our nation's highest civil honor six years ago and still fighting this fight every day and have his leadership and expertise and wisdom and voice has been a critical part of that. i think we had to experience our success and managing this to have confidence. the fact that all eight of the patients with ebola who have been promptly diagnosed have been treated. all treated successfully and surviving the experience and back home with their families. it has been a reassuring thing and people couldn't know that this is a disease with a 70% death rate. i think a combination of a great communication from great experienced leaders and policies based on science and evidence and medicine. proven success and isolating and identifying and treating cases i think have been the key things
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in bringing that public anxiety down. >> anyone else? >> tony, as ron said, you have been at this for a while. 30 years you have been leading the institute. you will forever be remembered in our nation for the leadership you provided during the most difficult and challenging moment when we are confronting hiv and aids and trying to sort that out as a nation. are there things you are bringing from those experiences? things are you bringing from those experiences in the 1980s and 90s as you wrestle as director of the institute with the hiv and aids crisis to this one? several. is the idea of consistent, honest, open communication of what you know and what you don't know. don't ever be afraid of saying you don't know balanced against
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trying to seem like you are smart and you know when you don't. the credibility goes down. the other thing is to try to communicate in a way that is always science and evidence-based. you may not get it across the first time, but you have to say it over and over and over again. that is the issue of risk and probability and to try to explain to people that the risks of things are there. we have to accept that. we had a lot of anxiety and understandable anxiety. it's understandable. the way you counter.
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intimately involved in both. it's that we are trying to communicate to the people that this virus is transmitted by direct contact with bodily fluids, blood, feces, vomit, things people don't like to talk about. health care workers are most at risk. they put themselves and run into the fire and not away. that's why we have the risk translated into infection. that gets extrapolated. and they think how everyone is at risk. they have to show the scientific facts argued that they are not. i remember being on ted coppell night line trying to explain to someone who is arguing against
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me that the risk, this was 1982 and 83. they say why don't we not allow gay waiters to wait on tables in greenwich village. a substantial proportion of them are infected. what if they have a cut on their hand and put a plate down and you have a cut on your hand and you pick a plate up and you can get hiv. this is a probability curve. it is more likely that you will get hit boy a car as you walk out of the restaurant than it is somebody giving you hiv that way. huh to keep going-over and over. when all of the data was in, people believed it. that's how you counter. you have to be calm and never be perjorative of people who
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disagree with you even though you think they are unreasonable. counter it with specific-bised evidence. it works. >> the key to this response is a unique combination of science and faith. being medically aware and having the best policies based on the best science and the kind of information he talked about. the role of faith community in preaching about compassion and tolerance. about volunteerism and service. that's also a ke element of the response. one of the first meetings was with faith leaders from all faith denominations sending people to volunteer in west africa. dr. kent brandly w brantley who
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his own plasma, he was there on a mission in west africa. sometimes places like georgetown, we wonder how they going to and how we reconcile the two things. the ebola crisis shows us that we need both of these things to address all elements of response and the crisis. >> you think you captured a couple of important points. mentioning faith identified the role that communities play and helping to control and controlling the spread, the ark of an illness. in the 1980s, many communities came together to compliment, supplement, support the work that colleagues were doing in the science to create a more
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immersive context in which to respond to some of the dynamics of the illness. one of the organizations has been doctors without borders. they do seem to borrow some of the efforts of bringing a community into the work. could you say just a little bit more about your own experiences and trying to mobilize the power of communities in support of responding in moments like this. >> the thing i have most experience with is in hiv it was so pervasive. we had a handful of cases here. back then we had tens of thousands of cases and not a lot of people paying attention to do that. when you talk about community, i think the involved and caring
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community, mostly the activist community have transformed the way we look at diseases now in the united states. it's a little bit different because we don't have or need that with ebola in the united states. i can tell you the reason that we have the success in southern africa with hiv is that the activist community borrowed a page from the playbook the activist community in the united states and said there drugs out there. they are making people well. we are dying. we need those drugs. they stepped to the plate and did what he did. i think now if the communities in africa and i know they are very stressed.
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there is civil wars and a lot of things that are dysfunctional. if the community makes the demand for the kind of systems that infrastructure we are talking about, i think that's going to go a long way to making it happen. there is nothing like a community that gets together with one message to change the way leaders look. it happened right here in the united states with hiv and the ats activist community. why not happen in africa about health care. >> two quick left questions and we will open it up. first on funding. roughly $2 billion has been committed and the u.s. is responsible for a good quarter of that. they outlined a pretty ambitious plan to bring this into control by january. is the level of funding roughly $2 billion that has been
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dedicated by nations from around the eu? is that sufficient to respond? >> no. it's not. that is why we have been moving forward on a number of fronts. first of all, we continue to solicit contributions of both people and resources and funds from all over the world and from all kinds of organizations. i think it's worth remembering and a fantastic response from yawn governmental organizations and founding as and nonprofits and around the world. that's also part of it. but, critically president obama asked the congress the first week in november during the lame duck session to consider an emergency funding request of $6.2 billion. $4.7 billion for immediate use and $1.5 billion contingency in case it changes in ways of going to other countries or having
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unanticipated needs. we had progress and we are hoping as they wrap up the spending bill or whatever structure they put it in, a large chunk of emergency funding will be passed. we need the funds urgently. the response that the u.s. mounted with all of the agencies has been on borrowed money and reallocating resources. no one a year ago had the response in their budgets. we hadn't hundreds of civilians and thousands of service people and all that came by moving resources around. the resources are running out and the only way to keep up let alone expand it is by getting this funding request approved. >> in your earlier comments, you mentioned the experience of the
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vaccine. my colleagues will no doubt attest that i never allow an opportunity to go by where i don't make a pitch for increased funding to the nih. it works its way back to the colleges and universities. >> you are right. he never misses an opportunity. >> this disease was discovered in 1976 and we don't have that. >> we have been parking on a vaccine since 1999, 2000. i recruited the the team from the research center that came here. the first paper was in nature in 2000 by nancy sullivan. in a way we were making a better and better vaccine and we were never able to get a serious pharmaceutical partner for the simple reason that they didn't
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perceive it as being a blockbuster. from 1976 to now, 24 outbreaks for a total excluding the purnt outbreak of about 2300 people. i think that's one of the roles of the federal government. we talked about them staying out of our way. this is one of the roles where they took the ball and said we will stick with this and develop it and finally when things started to percolate, again, it's a lesson and if you want to be prepared, one of the things that is so difficult and i have been frustrated, it's difficult to get money for something that hasn't happened.
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it's well, the priorities is budget and flat. we have a billion back in january and a lot of budget reconciliation. we are still below the levels and that's not a trajectory for us if we are going to be able to respond to the challenges we face. we will open it up. there is a microphone in the center aisle. if you can get in line, we can take as many as we can in the next 20 or 25 minutes or so.
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we have seen a difficulty in the u.s. system dealing with one aspect of the political role which is the structure of our system and federalism. i wondered if you would commend on that and also comment on the other lessons that you might draw on the relationship between science and politics. thank you. >> thank you. >> i think that we have a federal system. in the popular ebola czar. i never feel as unczarry when we are trying to deal with this complex patch work of federal,
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state, and local authorities involved. they are benefitted by the hard work of many state and local officials. this is a two-way relationship. right now we have about 1400 people who traveled from west africa in the past 21 days. we monitored them for their temperature done by state and local officials. they take on that work and make a big contribution. obviously as we rolled out the system of treatment centers, we announced earlier this week at the nih when the president was there, 35 hospitals, 53 beds. those are set by standard and state and locals designating and approving the hospitals ready for that. i think the system worked for us for 225 years. they have frustration, but many
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days great benefits to us. science i think has been the centerpiece of our response in the administration and the guide post for us. by and large that has been successful. i think that as they said, translating the ideas into a public public discussion is easy. we are luck tow have someone like tone whoa has expertise and a great ability to explain this to the people to make that bridge between science and popular discussion. we need to keep on that dialogue and that can be successful. >> we should be careful. we cannot always equate politics as a dirty word. we live in a political system, but the system really works a lot sometimes. politics is politics, but it
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does work. it does work. >> please introduce yourself. >> may name is dan and i'm a senior in the college here. this question is for dr. fauci. it's an honor to speak to you as a fellow graduate. we have a couple of other guys in the audience here. my question has to do with ebola and something we have learned in one of the classes here at georgetown. in my biology seminar, we learned about neglected tropical diseases. topic that came up is could ebola be considered i neglected disease and it has certain qualities and missing a few key ones. i was wondering whether you could consider it ay in dplekted tropical disease. >> the answer is certainly by broader criteria. it is a tropical disease that is
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neglected because we don't have the tools that we wish we had. neglected tropical diseases are given different because you know because you are studying it, different definitions into the different category. i look at it in much more loosely. i would consider this as something that now, it's going to be considered by the world as the neglected tropical disease because it's on everybody's radar. what i hope we get is drugs we proved work and a vaccine we know works. if there is a silver lining, you get something out of it so we don't have to go through it the next time. the answer to your question is in my mind, a neglected tropical disease. >> thank you. >> good morning. i was wondering if you could speak about the case of thomas eric duncan and whether his life could have been saved or not and
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there was a lot of debate surrounding the case and i was wondering if you could share your opinion. >> you really can't make those kinds of predictions of having taken care of so many thousands and thousands of patients in my to say we could have saved his if we did this. there was always the possibility. the man was sick. he went to an emergency room. he was not immediately diagnosed. it's tough to be perjorative about that and it's easy for someone in an easy chair who says an african-american said he felt sick and emergency rooms are very busy places. it was unfortunate he was not diagnosed early. when he got into the hospital, he was really, really ill. had he been plugged into a system earlier, could it have
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made a difference? possible. we shouldn't look at it that way, we should look at lessons learned. i don't think we could say that things would have been different and it's possible it could have been. >> thank you. >> thank you both for coming to speak to us. i'm a senior in the school foreign serchls you touched on briefly a role of nsf. i was wonder figure you had thoughts and why there was a discrepancy and calling the outbreak unprecedented in march and the response waiting until august to clear an international health emergency. i don't know if you had thoughts of why you thought this happened. thank you. >> that's a tough question because i have always been known as a straight shooter. if you look at who, they
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suffered from chronic under funding and one would have hoped they recognized early on this was something that really was going to explode. they didn't have the manpower they have been by budgetary constraints and had cuts in their experienced personnel. what msf, a fantastic organization, they are there on the ground and see it as it's happening and as it is unfolding. they called it correctly. very early on. i believe if the who had had the strength that they should have had at the time they would have been much more intensively involved on the ground. >> it's a pleasure to speak to you both. i'm a sophomore in school foreign service. as a student of anthropology, i
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have been taking careful note of how the media has been reacting to the ebola crisis. we have been seeing this high level of anxiety, but why is there a level of -- in my home state of new jersey, we have a lot of issues, but in particular two school children from rwanda who were almost kicked out of school and there was a school teacher in kentucky who visited africa and was forced to resign. why are they triggering with recent events, something else going on? what do you guys think? >> i'm not an anthropologist and so what i would say is i can't explain why the reaction to ebola has been what it has been
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in america. what i can say is what we have been doing to address that. we have been working hard to make sure those who are involved in treating the disease overseas and at home are not subject and their families are not subject to stigmatization and are celebrated for what they are which are heroes. i think part of this is just a need to do more educating and more informing about what tony referred to, the low level of risks involved here and getting to be more aware and comfortable with that. we have seen this for even health care workers in america. the the people at bellevue reported that many of them and their families were having negative reaction when is they went home and what not. it's an important thing for all of us to do to speak out about that stigmatization. valorize the workers going to
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africa to fight the disease. the people who are volunteering and the paul farmer's group and all these people sending people over there, those are the people who are keeping us safe here. they are doing great humanitarian work and saving lives and if nothing else, we should think of him as the people who are keeping us safe here and welcome them home with the kind of welcome they deserve to be given when they come back. >> one of the things that i have learned, it was tough for me to accept it. after you see it a lot and you do, fear is a raw emotion that sometimes gets people who otherwise would be considered as good people to do things that are not so good. i saw it in spades in the hiv-aids epidemic. obviously there shades of racism and other things that might be
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going on, but i don't think that's the predominant motivating force. it gets to what i was trying to explain before about the issue of how the public perceives risks. we go through risks every day of our lives. the risks are chronic and you accept them. for one reason or another which anthropologists like yourself probably know better than i, when there is a new risk, even if the risk in a probability prioritization is much lower than the risks that you are already accepting on an everyday basis, for strange reasons, you react much more violently in your mind metaphorically against that risk. you don't like a new risk. even though you are already living many, many risks. the one that was very, very
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clear, there were many, but back in the aids days when children of an aids patient or ryan white who was a young man who was a hemofill yack got hiv, they tried to burn down his house because of the fear of this unknown disease even though the risk was much less than any of the children who didn't want to go to school with him. probably and risk. the probability of their getting hiv from ryan was infinitely less than them getting hit by a car going to school. yet they wouldn't let ryan white into the school. fear does really strange things to people. that's something that is deep seeded in our nature. it's part of us unfortunately.
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>> my name is andrew and i'm a history major and a biology minor. i was wondering whether this crisis which has been such a nexus of the science and political systems in the united states, whether you think this crisis would create the will to fund research into these tropical diseases or not and really make that a national priority that is by partisan. what mechanisms would need to create to ensure these are priorities and how would we go about that? >> i think it already has. i think that when you look at the progress we have made on a bipartisan basis and getting the manager funding, a lot of that will go to the nih and other
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parts of hhs and the noble health response. they will have investments dealing with the immediate crisis. also in making investments in more long-term approaches as well. i think it's important. the president was there on tuesday and the point he made there which we were talking about was how this crisis shows the importance of basic science and investments in basic science. if you decide the day after ebola first appears on the front page of the "new york times" it's time to do the basic research in treating the vaccine, you are ten years too late. a lot of this if we shine a shot light on the need to make these basic investments well in advance of the crisis so that we
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can deal with them as they arise. to see someone like that at nih who i met twice who have been working on this for 15 years and probably for the first 14 years of that was one of the most obscure people in science and in the past year is one of the most prominent people and shows you how long it takes and how important basic science is. to dealing with crisis like this when they arise. >> we are coming close to the end so what i would like to do is ask the next people to ask your questions, each of you, and we will try to see if we can give a response to them all after we heard from all three. if you can be quick in articulating the questions, that would be great. >> i'm a senior in school of foreign service. what specifically has the medical community and the washington, what has been learned from this crisis looking
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forward? concerns of identifying the next risk or how to respond. >> okay. next? >> i'm marianna from the school of foreign service, a senior as well. i wanted to talk about the relationship between poverty and lack of infrastructure both on the medical and the garment in this country. what is being done and what could be done to actually have a sustainable approach to ebola addressing lack of capacity of the states. >> last question. >> i'm a masters student in the advocacy program. my question is how ebola will act as a precedent on the global health platform and how it's basical basically. >> lessons learned and capacity.
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>> what have we learn and what about the global approach. it relates a lot to what we have been saying about its dramatic experiences like we are going through right now which underscore what people have been saying for sometime of building not only the kind of health care infrastructure, global health security agenda and infrastructure and approaches not only from a health standpoint, but from a research standpoint. the investment in research that will not have us to play catch up all the time and the investment in a health infrastructure that not only will detect the diseases earlier, but allow us to respond earlier. that's really what a lot of the global health agenda is all about. >> i really can't add much other
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than to say it is a sad fact, what a large role poverty plays in the fatality rate from ebola. i think what this crisis started, everyone read that ebola is the disease that kills 70% of victims. that is true without treatment and without interventions, even in west africa, the ngos that are treating people with nothing more complicated than giving people iv hydration are bringing fatality rates down to 25 or 30%. that's still horrible, but you think of the fact that you can cut the death rate of a disease in half by giving someone the most basic kind of health care, it shows you how important, what a role of resources and building up these systems and helping these countries get to a basic level of care.
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what a huge difference that can make if you can cut the death rate in half. not the sophisticated stuff when he treated nina pham. but just very basic care. that's a telling fact. the telling anecdote about this. we need to make investments of getting the system here in the united states and dealing with infectious diseases here in the future. we have to invest in countries around the world in getting that global health infrastructure in place and trying to address the development issues as well. >> one last question. the classes are ending this week and going to exams next week. we are going to be off for a little while and back in about a month. advice for us as a university community. are there things you think a place like this could be doing in the spring semester that might contribute to the effort to respond to the challenge?
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this really urgent challenge that is particularly facing west africa, but raises a number of important questions beyond that that require our attention. any advice for us as a university community? >> well, i wouldn't recommend you try to take care of patients, that's for sure. but to develop as part of experience and global health, a solidarity with the young people in those countries to try to get them to realize that the young people here care about what's going on with them. i think you can do that through various organizations. volunteering or even doing it by just communications. it meant an awful lot to the people in southern africa when we reached out to them in the aids epidemic without going-over there, but encouraging them in their fight against aids and their pressure that they put on their own governments. particularly in south africa
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when their government refused to allow drugs to be distributed. they didn't think hiv caused the aids when they were communicating with our young people who gave them actually the fortitude to go ahead and just demand it, which they did. >> i would add to that, i think that one, i think it's great that all the different schools in georgetown studied what happened in this case and learned. you can't learn from crisis like this if you don't study them and learn about them. if you don't have academic worth that communicates that and disseminates that. that's an important project. i think that being voices for dealing with the stigmatization issues, things that students and faculty in the georgetown community can do both here at home and overseas. i think it's important for
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georgetown as a global university to make sure it is engaged with people from the nations. having her talk about her experience from sierra leone an georgetown. be a bridge between our community here at georgetown and those communities is an important part of that. it will make us better as community at georgetown. >> i want to thank you both for being with us today. it's an extraordinary moment for us community. a chance to be in conversation for both. at this important moment. it's a real privilege to be able to have you with us. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in expressing our gratitude. >> thank you. >> thank you. [ applause ]
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>> for both the massachusetts and national health care bill. he'll testify tuesday before the house oversight committee on the rollout on the law. he said that administration officials obscured details to ensure passage of the bill in 2010. and mary lynn tavenner. live tomorrow at 9:30 eastern right here on c-span 3. later tomorrow, john kerry testifies, our live coverage
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begins at 2:00 eastern on c-span 3. and wednesday, state department inspector general, that hearing starts at 10:00 a.m. wednesday live on c-span 3. tonight on the communicators, on what she calls the world's first digital weapon, a computer virus. >> it was sophisticated. first of a all, the most unique thing, this was a virus to physically destroy something. we have seen malware steals pass words. we haven't seen something designed to physical ly destroy and have some kinetic activity. other than that, it was really
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sophisticated. it was, as i mentioned, it's designed to increase and slow the speed of the centrifuges. while it was do that, it did this remarkable trick, which was to make the operators of the plant thing that the operations were perfectly normal. what it did, it recorded normal activity on the computers first and it played back that normal activity to the monitoring machines when it was actually doing the sabotaging. >> i'm a big fan of c-span. i want to compliment on being able to bring together two different iedologies, like they did this morning from the kato institute, i think you need more
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programming that way. conduct themselves with a very civil tone. and i applaud you for that. iedology can be overcome to reach a common ground and i think there should be more programming to that effect. thank you very much for c-span. >> i listen to c-span pretty much on a daily regular basis, i find it to be very informative, a good look at our different politicians, so citizens can understand exactly who we elect and what's being done in congress. it seems to be that congress is undecided or always fighting, it's important that the citizens have a nice outlet for them to see the proceedings that go on. i appreciate c-span and regardless of whether or not it's popular with mainstream culture, i want them to know
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they are young people, particularly me, i'm 18, and i watch c-span on a regular basis. to make sure i understand what's happening in my country. because i do care. >> america history tour starting with the battle of little big horn, i just watched it in its entirety, it's priceless. so many people of the world do not understand themselves, if they watch american history, they can see themselves in america. and why we're such a great and wonderful nation. thank you. >> continue to let us know what you think about the programs you're watching. call us -- or e-mail us. or send us at a tweet. join the c-span conversation.
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like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. the associated press reports israeli lawmakers dissolve parliament monday. last friday in washington, israeli labor party leader isaac herzog talked about his country's relationship with the united states. and why he intends to challenge benjamin netanyahu in next year's election. this was with jeffrey goldberg. this is just over one hour. [ applause ] >> i just asked him what side he wants to be on and he said the right. [ laughter ] note that. thank you very much, tammy. thank you, haim. everyone's here. and thank you -- we have agreed to call ourselves
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jeff and bougie. >> no problem. >> the -- there's a lot to cover tonight. i want to start with something that i call word association. [ laughter ] >> can i say three short sentences? one is that, of course, join with all of my colleagues from israel in expressing heartfelt condolences to mr. lieberman. secondly, on a different note, to be grateful and thank you to haim and brookings and the saban forum and lastly, those the israelis who have flown here, if their heads fall apart, please understand. >> are you suffering from jet lag? >> who doesn't? >> i know you are a shrewd journalist and i am ready.
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>> "shrewd" is a code word for something. >> i read you constantly, so, i know. >> let's start with the news of the moment. you took a long and possibly eventful flight here with, among others, tzipi. livni and there is a lot of interest in understanding whether you and tzipi livni and possibly others are going to try to merge your parties, merge your lists, in order to form a potent center-left bloc. can you talk about this. >> first of all, i said to my wife about investing in something over the weekend. seriously speaking, let's understand israeli political scene for a moment. there and i i'm here to present to each and every one of you and
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break this notion that netanyahu is not unbeatable. i am here to tell you i will form the next government. and i will lead israel in a different direction. it's feasible if we deal the proper coalitions. >> so, mr. prime minister, how are you going to build that? [ laughter ] >> i think you understands that it requires a lot of things, number one, that all ego is set aside and i lead labor. labor is the party that founded the party. we believe and i believe that from day one, since i took office that we should have a front running together of forces. clearly, tzipi livni is a very distinguished israeli leader, and i would like to very much join forces with her and with other parties.
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there has to be a centrist israeli bloc that is an alternative unequivocally to benjamin netanyahu. >> now, can you answer the question -- have you formed a list? >> look. these are processes. the elections were decided just in the last few days. it hasn't finalized its dissolvement yet. we have seen in israeli politics, you believe it only when you see it. we're in the process. i hope it will succeed. i believe clearly that labor is the strongest element. in this format. it should lead it and i hope to be able to do it. >> let me ask questions about who you might serve in government with, can you envision going with avigdor lieberman? >> let me explain, tit's a
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coalition party. the polls over the weekend gave me a quite nice leap ahead in terms of closing the gap. at the end of it's a coalition's game. you have to see what will be the day after. this is what people don't get. there could be an interesting coalition of parties and leaders who decide to form a coalition, a new coalition, and i hope that my capability of tying knots, of being able to bring people together, things which i have done also in winning the labor party primaries, as well as understanding the vista, and all partners are possible. the arabs themselves always say they don't want to get into coalition.
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there may be support from the outside. let me explain to those who do not understand israeli politics. the leader of the opposition, it ain't nothing like being a minority leader here. because we have in my opposition right now, 8 parties. okay? it is a multiparty system. it is not republicans and democrats. in a multiparty system, today, i have in my opposition, three arab parties. i have a muslim brotherhood party. in the region. so, we have ultra orthodox parties. we need to have them all represented. i believe since i'm talking to all of them and since i respect the unique structure of israeli society that we can work together. and build a coalition which will be different from the current right-wing coalition.
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>> let's talk about you and your candidacy. you are obviously a man of accomplishment. you come from a very, very famous family in israel. but you are known as a noncharismatic figure. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. [ laughter ] . no. there is a certain assumption -- leaders we had in what happened to them. >> there's a certain understanding in israeli politics, maybe this is just conventional or perceived wisdom. especially from the center or centerleft. that is gruff. and no one would mistake you for -- walking down the street. >> he's a great guy. >> talk about the barriers to your success among the voters. i mean, and then we'll talk
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about the labor party barriers. >> it is combined, intertwined. the staging of labor the labor is staged right now in the center-left. it should resume its role as a mother party, together with all of the other parties, which i mentioned, because labor has the capability of being so, labor is looking and talking to all of the other members of the political scene in the same eye level. and of course, me. and as for myself, since i do not see having psychological treatment with you -- there is an innate fear within israeli society of whatever we see and hear around us. you know what, it's the natural reaction of human beings. my duty and role is
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to acquire enough trust in all of the polls. people trust me, that is one of my virtues. they have to be able to trust me. and that is what i am focusing on. >> because security is a threshold. a center or center left candidate, who are your security gurus? who do you look to? because you're not yourself a general. who do you look to advice on matters of national security? >> there are wonderful people within the security and defense community who are willing to lend a hand or are willing to give from their experience. we have some people within our party. we have people from the outside. there are very distinguished people. some of them even here. this issue, we have to shatter
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this premonition -- you know, that we had a party one of the lists that run in the election, either in 2009 or before, only generals, and it did not make a difference. if you ask me, the real issue is socioeconomics. undoubtedly, we will talk about it, breaking the umbilical cord and moving forward with the palestinians and creating very strong security interests of israeli being fully fostered and nurtured. we give an answer on issues. we must remember the social protests of 2011. the summer of 2011 was a major watershed in israeli history. it is something that i'm always inquisitive about in american politics. all of the sudden, the nation woke up and demanded not security, they demanded social justice, and they kept on saying
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social justice, and 5% of the nation's population gathered in a city square one night, demanding justice with no violence. 100 years after the revolution in russia. all of a sudden, social justice, but in a democratic sense, they did not get that delivered to them and the only party that can deliver to them and the only partner that would be is labor. this is part of the real agenda battle between me and netanyahu. these are not the only issues. >> i want to come to this in a minute. but i do want answer to this question of who you listen to in israel. >> i will not tell you. >> why not? >> because, some of the people don't want to be exposed. it's legitimate. believe me, i hinted and i said we're talking to many people.
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and i hope to be able to present a nice group of people who have devoted their life to the defense of the state of israel who are going to be with me and my part. >> i will probably try one more time later when you are tired. >> i'm not going to chicken out. >> that is not the exact expression but you are close. [ laughter ] you can really, really thrill the people watching on c-span if you tried. >> let's put that aside. the real expression is something which i don't like at all. >> come to this large question of the labor party, why is the labor party in such a diminished state, where did it go wrong? >> it's not necessarily in a d diminished -- >> certainly compared to the
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founding of the state. >> right now the israeli map is comprised of medium-sized party. the structure has been actually broken to medium, small-size parties and remember that there's going to be a new threshold introduced in this election, which is quite big, four mandates. mainly, parties will have to get to crescent only if they get four mandates. about 3.25%. therefore, there will have to be mergers. there will have to be mergers. as for your question about labor, there are a few processes, undercurrents. first one was, we lost touch with some of what the public really feels is important to them. for a long time. we were members in coalitions of
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other leaders. and we were kind of erased of our identity i it took us time to recover and we also lost touch with new groups in society -- who are taking the roll and demanding to be a part of it. for exam xl, the russia immigration of 1 million people, we kind of lost them somewhere. they supported both labbin and barack, they were turned off. the arab population, they gave 96 .or 98% support to elbarak. a young generation took over, coming in and voting. they don't remember the legacy of labor. within that young generation or the general public at large, we were viewed as giving up to quickly to the palestinians or the arabs. >> on that subject, it's april of next year and you're the prime minister, you're a big
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advocate, obviously, the of the two-state solution. i want to know from you, why you think you'll achieve what he failed to achieve and ehud olmert tried to achieve. what are you going to do different to get to a two-state solution? >> i'm not willing to give up to try again. part of it has to do with psychology. we're not dealing with psychology at all. the fact there's no connection, no discussion, no discourse or no trust between the leaders is, adversed to the ability to reach an agreement. yesterday morning, i had breakfast with jerry adams the leader of the i.r.a.sinn fein. he was an outcast. i know him and we had breakfast.
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i said, jerry, tell me what was the moment of truth when you guys moved? and he said, when we all came to realize, they would not achieve it in any other way. and also, there was a unique configuration of leaders. amongst them, predominantly one of them is bill clinton, who knew how to work on the psychology of the leaders and the people. this is part of it. and nobody's dealing with it. i speak a lot to him and i said, i said to him, people say even if i negotiate with you, you'll never make peace with us and he laid and he said, i'm sure we can reach an agreement. it depends on building trust. it depends on confidence-building measures. it depends on being innovative and bold. it depends on radiating to people that there's hope. the situation we see right now
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is so devastating because there's a feeling of lack of hope. there is a despair feeling. it's unleashing of feelings of religious hatred that is so dangerous to all of us. turning into a religious wall. >> you're a prime minister. what is your settlement policy. >> it's based on the blocs. it's essential for its security. >> when the u.s. administration -- no, no, i want to get this in. what dow you say. >> i learned from hillary clinton. she said, i don't an theoretical questions. because i believe israel, i have always said it. israel should put a plan on the
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table and move forward and often. and within that umbrella of movement, there are things that both sides can do. i believe in freezing settlement construction outside the blocs as part of confidence-building measures. but it should be part of plan that israel present and this plan should take into account most importantly the security measures of the state of israel. >> what if it doesn't work? do you have a plan b? >> you have spoken about the unsustainability of the status quo. >> that is true. >> what is the plan b. >> when we speak plan bs we already negate moving on plan a. there are experts here that do not believe in the negotiating process but rather believe in unilateral steps. i think israel, the nation, suffered a certain trauma from
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unilateral step of pulling out of gaza. we have to attend to that. i was there. we were blamed for pulling out by our brothers and sisters from the settlement in gaza. and we said to them, it didn't work out. we have thattic it into account. i do believe however, unequivocally and from the bottom of my heart that since it's a must, it's a must under all circumstances to separate from the palestinians. that, if it fails, we will have to take steps to define our borders in a clearer way. >> that is unilateral withdrawal? >> it depends. there are ways. if you don't negotiate, you can coordinate. even if you -- free settlement construction as i mentioned. you can do steps that say, i gave priority to that area and not the other.
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but i think it's a mace take that we already assumed that it's over. it's part of the tragedy that unfolded in front of our eyes. it is not true. i'm telling you, absolutely, it is possible, absolutely possible, still, to make peace with the palestinians. >> i'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of an israeli voter, to hear you say that, where if all els fails we are going to have to withdraw. >> i did not say that. whether legislative or others, arranging the fact that most israelis will been in certain areas. >> let turn then, and again, i will try in a minute. let's turn then to foreign affairs, an issue that came up on this stage an hour ago, relations between the united states and israel.
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secretary clinton made it seem there's a occasional ripples in the calm surface of these waters. downplayed personal tension between the president and your prime minister. you have spoken about this, however, as a crisis. can you define why you this is more of a crisis than hillary clinton says it? >> first let me say, i'm not here to start personally criticizing the prime minister outside of israel. my aim is to convince the people of israel. that's one thing. there are rules of the game that we attend to, however, i think that the policies of the israeli government has led us to a situation -- sorry -- has led us to a situation of a total lack of trust. a total lack of trust between the administrations and the leaders. now, it's essential, it's essential to have trust between
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the leaders, not only the professionals, not only the government level, but the leaders, it's a fact. it's a fact that there is no trust at all between the president and the prime minister. and we will have to attend to it. and one of my first aims will be to mend those friendships. in israel's history throughout, the ability to have direct contact, trust and conversations between the top leaders was essential in critical moments. to israel's well-being as well as to regional peace and safety. >> do you blame the american side or the israeli side. >> i'm not in the blame game. i'm telling the israeli people that will are so many faulty policies that we have will have to connect. and there are so mistakes that netanyahu has done that we will
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correct. the relationship with the united states, even if we argue we should do it in closed room. we know how to argue. even if we debate. there's the issue of trust. telling each side what is the problem. what is my interest. what is your interest. let's try to get together and agree. because the united states is really still the major superpower of the world. because the united states is not pull out the middle east. and because the united states is our closest ally. it's so clear. >> i have heard people on the right in israel about replacing europe for example, with a china/india policy. >> there's nothing to compare. with all due respect to these important counties.
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economicallies that are very pret important countries. we have only real one trustworthy ally, which we really share afoex and trust with on so many levels, and there is nothing to replace that. >> let me ask you -- >> it also has an economic bearing on the israeli economic. >> i have to step back and ask a basic question at this moment. why is israel moving towards election right now? can anyone explain what happened? >> the situation is like a -- some sort of a theater act, whereby each side looked the other side for a situation where they couldn't not on together and i think that part of it has
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to do with the ill decisions of benjamin netanyahu who decided he could pull this one again. and if you ask me, the israeli public will be faced with a question, is it willing to have another term of benjamin n netanya netanyahu? the it will be the key question in this selection, in addition to all of important issues which you have discussed, it will reflect the following. will israel skid dangerously into becoming a more extreme state in its behafl mode as a government. or will israel correct itself into the direction of the -- we well-positioned policies that go together with the original envisionment of zie oonnismzieo.
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trying to move toward peace and social justice, alignment with the united states, economic recovery and most importantly strengthening and fosting our economic government development. >> where do you rank the iran threat in the rangers of threats? obviously, the current prime minister believes that it poses a threat? do you believe that is the most important threat? >> it is definitely an important threat. it's important threat that has to be dealt with. and may i say the following? i think the negotiation process is important. i think the united states and its allies should get the best deal possible. i think we shoulden able it to get the best deal possible.
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>> do you trust the obama administration to get a deal? >> i trust the obama administration to get a good deal. we hope the best deal possible. most importantly, the fact that we have to agree on a breakout time that will give ample warning to everybody, if the iranians believe they want to break the agreement and move towards the bomb. i think the professionals have to work on it. and we have to give it a chance. nevertheless, we should not be naive. we still live in dangerous and complicated world and region. we shouldn't not be naive to believe that all is well. there should be strict supervision, strict monitoring and deaf forring.
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>> if you had been prime minister this past summer, how would you have handled the hamas threat? >> first of all, i think we should have a combination of diplomacy. we entered that crisis with less international credit in our hands. by the second week, the international community started showing nerves in terms of what's going on in gaza. because of the pictures that came out of gaza had a bearing and influence. one has to see heavily deteriorated into that conflict. we need a strong regional coalition that brings the palestinian authority in gaza. to give hope to gaza. opens up gaza under strict
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supervision. and moves on as a basis for a process with palestinians. >> palestine is divided into two warg factions. you seem to have more faith than the average iz ray legal? >> we always love to judge everybody else's political systems. i'm not judgmental. if i have to make a decision between hamas and the palestinian authority. i believe in working with the palestinian authority. it is feasible. it's working. look at the summer. following the abduction of the three boys, which was a huge tragedy for the israelis and for everybody, the palestinian's authority functioned properly, they coordinated with us efforts to find their whereabouts, they
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handled the situation in calming it down despite the fact that there were many israeli operations on the ground. everybody loves to turn them as weak, so far they have survived five israeli prime ministers to the best of my recollection. >> are you worried about the future of israeli democracy? i'm worried about the direction in which israeli democracy and society is moving into if we don't correct. a real question of a distingu h distinguished representative from the right. he believes in a deal that the world will accept unilateral steps of israel in this direction. he doesn't answer the question of what will you do with 100,000
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palestinians who will become israelis? jers lum, the recent terror attacks came from palestinians, who grew up under israeli southernty, so does it mean we will include another 100,000 who have no loyalty to the state of israel in the sense that they won't feel a part of israel but part of the occupation? there is no other choice. despite all of those fierce, we will have to get over those fears. otherwise, the direction the israeli society is moving into could be break and that's we're doing in order to correct it. i'm worried about undercurrents that are trying to limit, curtail the beautiful gift of israeli democracy. the fact that in our parliament, there is such a range of views, of free speech, laid down by our
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supreme court. i'll do whatever i can with my colleagues to protect it. there are endless efforts. the minister of justice was trying to blog every week another piece of legislation, which from the outside, for those with liberal understanding, of what democracy is all about, seem incomprehensible and dangerous. >> israel is quite obviously a jewish state. what's so bad about passing a law that says israel is a jewish state? >> i will explain the following. i said it on the floor on the parliament when debated last week. i said that when it comes to 2 deal with the palestinians in the state moments, i think it's correct to say that both states are nation states. palestine will be the nation-state of the palestinian people and israel will be the
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nation-state of the jewish people. but this has nothing to do with what's within israel. in israel, all citizens must feel they're equal. they must feel it. coming forward with this discourse on jewish state, threads of ron racist undertones makes the feeling that somebody will be preferred over the other. the way the majority treats the minority is essential to the we well-being of our society. the community in israel is come priend of all denominations. fascinating community. many of them want to be part of inclusiveness in the israeli public. there are many who want to be
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secessionsists. our duty is to inclusive of who want to protect the well-being of the state. to maybe anybody feel, in any form or manner that is he's not common -- >> what i'm hearing from you is it would be impossible for you to enter a coalition say, with lieberman, who has just proposed that part parts of israel proper, the triangle area, that area, be sliced off in a final peace deal and the arabs and their land transferred to sovereignty. >> the reason is -- it doesn't work this way. at the end, the coalition in
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israel is formed under guidelines on what's greed on the agreed-upon policy. it has nothing to do with the nationality of people per se. the nationality, per se, came out of many ideas that were floating around to define the real nature of the state of israel. that nature has been defined in our declaration of independence. the greatness of our founding fathers was that they did not like to talk too much. they did. they simply came forward with the declaration of independence and then they built a nation. he did not argue about it. in the absence of religious, interreligious flarg up and all other issues at stake, it's a
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horrendous mistake to deal with it and to unleash all of these jeannies out of the bolt. >> are you saying that idea of transferring arab villages made up of israeli citizens is not on the table? >> it's not on the table. unconstitutional. not freeeasible at all. >> in general i invite each and every one of you to understand what you see from the outside is not exactly what you get. you have all groups, they have different views of life and there are many, many arabs who are included in the big parties, included in my party, and they share an dream of living together in peace. when i go to an nerm, and i asked the mother and father, a jewish family, who saved your
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son's life? they showed me the doctor who treated their son and saved his life. one of the best surgeons in the country. >> we'll go to questions in a minute. i want to ask one other thing. in your opinion, does israel have pr problems or problems? >> israel has both. look, i don't rule out the fact that we feel besieged. and the world doesn't understand us at times. however, i don't believe in the biblical proverb of people that dwell alone. in this day and age, we cannot dwell alone. we have to have connections with our friends and allies. we have cooperate together on the international level. that boosts our economy and our internal strength. we can't go on saying, crying
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out, we're the ones who are besieged. we have our problems. there is lot of hate around the world. there is lot of undertones. we have to present our policies correctly. i also compare israel to a mid side ship in stoney waters in high seas that has to maneuver in the river correctly. we're in a situation where we find ourselves cornered without any ability to maneuver. that's our main problem. >> let me go back to one question, i want to get you on record as much as possible here. this is important question. i asked martin this question this summer. about the peace process. we tend to think of that as starting 20 years ago with oslo. the palestinians or their
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representatives, before there was a nationality and organization. have had four, five opportunities over the last 80 years, starting with the appeal before 37 to have a state. each time the offer has gotten worse, from a territorial standpoint. my question is, this is the question that plays the left in israel, after 80 years of being rejected, of having the division of the land being rejected by the palestinians or their arab representatives, i want come back to this, what makes you think that now, is the time to try to move towards this two-state resolution. >> it's been a long drawnout process. don't forget olso. you're ignoring a lot of things. you're ignoring the cartoon process of 1968 and comparing it
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today. today there is an intense interfacing. but my fear is that within the palestinian and israeli camp the people are losing faith in the possibility of separating and coming to the two-state solution. it was there, believe it was there, in 1994, during the labbin era, there was a huge majority for both peoples. unfortunately, on both sides, it led to the fact that we got into a stumbling block with no possibility of moving forward and then we repeated it time and again. it is the easiest thing, to tread on the psychology of fear. my adversaries in the political system, especially from the right, tread on fear. i'm trying to challenge that and say we cannot live only on fear. we have to be lucid, we have to
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be careful. we have to protect our interests. we must talk. it can't be that the mothers and if fathers on the odd sither sit want peace. why would anyone over the age of 35 with children commit suicide? we have to understand where it comes from and we have to make an effort and not say, all of the arab world and the muslims cannot make peace with us. we have to go on and try. >> where does that impulse come from? >> it's against any moral, legal or human values, period. it's shocking. nonetheless, when you look at the whole picture, we have to analyze it, in order to neutralize these elements we have to bring hope. we cannot give up on that.
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>> thank you very much for this conversation. we're going to open it up. [ applause [ applause ] the gentleman to tzipi livni. >> thank you. thank you both for a great interview. a lot of people here would like to see a changing government. i'm not going to express my opinion, because i'm the host. however, when i look at the members of knesset are and i count the numbers and i put the right on one side of the aisle and i put the left on the center of the other, i take out the arabs, it just cannot happen, would you be willing to give us some numbers about how you think you can become the next prime
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minister? >> because i say people do not understand. you all think that the ultra-orthodox are to the right. for example, let's take that as a microsome of the analysis. it has shifted dramatically to other directions. the four widows of the butchered rabbis, who were unfortunately butchered. they got up and stood up in front of 1,000 people, the first widow said, we have to think about the way we treated others. just as an example. okay? nobody picked up on it. why get interested in those groups out there who we are striking them out as if they're out of it. absolutely wrong. absolutely wrong. remember the coalition.
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therefore that's just one example of why people in all communities are struggling with an inner debate about where to go. it's not a question of left or right. it's a question of where we go from here. can we live together? in a normal configuration, a major player in the elections, one can assume, at least, that won't roll out any coalition, definitely a centrist coalition. and we mentioned others. and i think there will be a moment of truth whereby the israeli political system will have to decide, do we move to that direction or did we skid into the abyss of a total deadlock and the rest of it is clear to us? >> so no numbers?
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>> there's no reason to write numbers right now. we're in the beginning of the elections. those politicians, or at least analyst analysts know how to start a election not end them. >> two questions. one is -- there is an idea that the founder of the labor party, talked about a term in how you translate it into english. stati statism you're viewed -- i'm not here to dump on your predecessor. >> no, no, no that's unfair. unfair. incorrect. >> i'm not asking. >> it's unfair.
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>> i'm just asking, how do you hit that israel middle that is wanting that kind of labor party, that has that kind of approach? >> part of it is by uniting forces with centrist forces who share the same values. we all understand the dangers. i have respect for my colleagues. and other parties, we all understand the real inherent dance that face israel. and therefore must share together the ability to bring change. >> the other issue, you mentioned the social justice piece of this and how 5% of israel came together -- >> it's quite unique. >> this was a unique moment. but yet, netanyahu won the
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election after that, he's still ahead in the polls. maybe you'll come up because you'll unit -- >> do you want to depress? >> no. >> don't talk to me. >> why hasn't labor been able to capitalize on its natural constituency which is the social justice movement and how has the right been more successful? >> it's a very good question. there is a national commission he can delve into that. only one out of a dozens of accommodations were implemented. the truth of the matter is, in my mind, it was -- he enjoyed the fruit of that process. of that process. he didn't deliver. >> you didn't join the netanyahu
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movement during the peace process because of your skepticism. would you rule out joining him if he wins. >> the problem is, all of you guys are asking the questions of the last battle ground. i'm telling you, that we're focused on winning the elections. and with all due respect, i don't mind inviting netanyahu to my government if he would accept the guidelines. >> what ministry would he get? >> i'm trying to explain to you, you have to understand, i'm not ha lewis nating, it's not easy, it's complicated. all of us here understand politics is a game of clear undercurrents, that all of a sudden, erupt. there is enormous frustration with within the israeli public, in general, and body politic in particular, as to what is happening in israel and as to
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the failed policies of netanyahu. this will be reflected in the election results. >> mr. herzog, thank you, jeff. it's a bit of an uncomfortable subject in this room, but would you agree that sometimes at election time, the united states government tries to exert some influence one way or the other you might be the beneficiary this time if they did. >> again, what you see from there isn't what you see from there. >> what is your view here? >> we shouldn't fiddle in other elections. secondly, i think that the united states administration is
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wise enough to understand what not to do within an election process. >> over here. is there a mike? >> yeah. >> and then michael right in the middle. >> thank you. >> talking about the elections in terms of being crucial for the future of israel. where does the fit in? i think the direction of the result of the next election, what happens after that, is crucial for the jewish world. a world where i see the younger generation finding it more and more difficult to connect with the state of israel. i would be interested in your views as to what responsibility that israeli officials have -- >> it's a valid point. the view of the diaspora on israel and the what young people think of israel is not reflected
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adequately in the israeli media at all or in the israeli public discourse. what we see, is we see the main jewish leaders expressing support of israel. we don't see the grass roots and we don't see certain streams of disessentis disenchantme disenchantment. the believe in israel as the true home land of our people. we have to work towards that. we have to foster and strengthen and take it into account in what we do as well. absolutely. for example, i think the whole game of dealing with and touching temple mount was extremely dangerous. and adverse to the basic of israel a israel -- because it unleashed a very, very dangerous religious conflict. which is unnecessary at all.
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of course the palestinians -- they road on this without justification on this white horse and i think that responsible administers cannot do these steps without understand i understanding implications on synagogues all over the world. it's interesting to note, where the real sages of the time, the ult ultra-orthodox leaders of time, who ruled going into temple mount, including my grandfath , grandfather -- i think one needs to debate, argue and ask deep questions about that to the leaders of religious zionism. >> can i add quick thing.
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there's debate in this country, do you believe young american jewing are being disenchanted with israel because of israel policies or they're growing distant from israel because they are growing distance from it being jewish? >> first of all, birth right is a huge success. and other projects follow suit. they are incredibly important to forming a new feeling to israel and the young generation lives like the young generation. from knowing the full picture and sees things on the social network that bother them a lot. the issues of tax and so forth,
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it's lost in the discourse. i think young american jews are challenge both for israel as well as for the organized jewish community, which is trying its best actually in manyactually, ways, including all the organizations and movements of connecting them better to israel, or bringing them to jewish community. >> michael and then nancy. >> you have my empathy. >> thank you. >> you can see the color of my hair. it's not easy. i apologize, because i'm going to ask you the same question i asked you last year. when i listen to you, there's a tendency to look at the palestinians as some type of two-dimensional prop for an israeli morality play. they don't have agency. they have no control over their own destiny. we are in control. but of course, it's not true. the palestinians have ultimate
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agency. they have walked away from negotiations after israel released prisoners. a great number of prisoners. they have gone to the u.n. and are declaring a palestinian state not only without giving us peace, with the expressed intention of going to the icc and sanctioning us. you say mazu survived five israeli prime ministers, because unlike you, he doesn't stand for election. in the case of iraq and syria unraveling, what chances do you think of the palestinian state with a corrupt unelected leadership is going to cohere for a long time? why would you put your trust in it? so i understand the idea of holding a two-state solution as a vision. but it's a very pretty vision. but a vision is not a policy. i want to know, in view of palestinian agency, and looking palestinian agency in the eye, what is your policy?
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what is your initiative? where do you go if he's going to go to the u.n. and put sanctions on the icc, he won't come back to the negotiation table if you don't freeze settlements everywhere, and you don't release many murderers from israeli prisons? what's your policy? >> i would say the following. the undermining assumption in what you say, is stone facts, i don't argue with the facts, except i don't accept the idea that, therefore, it's over. i don't think it's true. i definitely don't think it's true. i don't think that the fact that there is a palestinian leadership calls for me to ignore it. all these comments about -- all these arrangements without the palestinian leadership with the people to me seems futile. there is a golden opportunity now, which is acceptable by all here. there is a unique convergence of interest that has been there for
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a long time, but have emerged throughout the summer with our adjacent neighbors, egypt and jordan. mostly distinguished neighbors. i know the egyptian ambassador is here. may i say that i think one needs to understand that president assisi is a very important player in the region, and i say that here in washington, because it took time, that washington understood the importance, and they need to work with assisi as well, not only with king abdullah, which is also important. so our two neighbors are there. now you need to add to the equation the palestinian authority. and then you have four, a table with a leg of four. okay? egypt, jordan, palestinians and israel. they can't work together in building a process, getting back in from the gulf and the international community and the united states, yes, it needs
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innovativeness. it needs initiation. and it needs for israel to put a plan on the table. >> the last question for the minority leader will come from the minority leader. >> it will not be a question, it will be a comment. again, thanking all of you, and welcoming all of our guests, all of the guests from israel. and to you, mr. chairman. i just couldn't let one comment that i heard stand. while it is true that israel and different parties, and you have many friends in the united states who want to help them, with the presence of other members of congress in the room, i cannot withstand any notion that the united states government would be involved in an election in another country. we have fought that over and over again in the past. and we would fight it if they tried to be involved. it just won't happen. but i know that -- i don't know if that was a casual reference,
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or if you're referring to private individuals aprssisting. but the united states government does not get involved in elections in other countries. that is our policy. thank you. >> thank you. >> i'm sorry, i'm kind of jumping the line for one more question, but it's something that's really on my mind. and i appreciate you giving me the opportunity. the vast majority of american juries either are for or conservative, the vast majority. that majority is pretty much rejected in israel, from a kor vergennes standpoint. are you taking the risk in israel of losing american jury rather than including them? acknowledging the fact that
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reform jewels can be very good jewels. people that need to be rejected, and they are. how would you deal with this if you were -- it's a theoretical question. don't give me the hillary respon response. >> i'm telling you that i have huge respect for the reform and conservative movements. and they can tell you what a vast relationship of cooperation. i have, my colleagues have with me, the members of the knesset, for my party, a huge gender in women's issues leader, and yes, she deserves a clap as well. anyway -- [ applause ] >> the issue is the following. there is a growing strength of those movements in israel.
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those movements have been advocating for years, telling their leaders, if you want to succeed in israel, compete in the market. go into the market. stop kind of complaining and attacking all day long. go in. found communities, build communities. and you know what, they've done it. i was the first minister in israel's history to administer housing, to grant construction of synagogues to their formative conservative movements. this has gone on for many years since then. and i can tell you more than that. they've taken a distinguished pace as well. we've come to many arrangements. the new convergent bill is changed. many party members were involved in it, and advocated it. and there are many changes way beyond what you understand. it's not that the conservatives or reformers are shut out.
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the issue of marriage and divorce in israel is under the laws. that's an issue to debate. that's a big issue to debate. but that doesn't mean that that kind of -- that there won't be change, because there are also other changes. i won't go into many details, but i'll explain the following. take the issue of the gay community. gay/lesbian community in israel. in many respects, despite the fact from the outside we're seen as a more conservative country, in this respect israel is one of the more advanced countries. it started with a lot of animosity from the ultra orthodox community. and today you won't hear a word. and therefore, all i'm trying to say is, without giving kind of awards to anybody, or saying, i'm telling you that there are many processes which you are unaware of, and for me, the
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relationship with the conservative and reform movement are essential. and i believe in pluralism. but there's a way between the living and implementing. and part of it is the dialogue that we hold with these movements in israel and abroad. >> thank you very much. thank you, everyone. appreciate it. [ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. and forum delegates, we will see you tomorrow morning. our program begins at 9:00. thank you. m.i.t. economist jonathan gruber served as adviser for the massachusetts and health care bills. he will testify tuesday before the house oversight committee on
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the obama administration's rollout of the law. he said that administration officials intentionally obscured details to enable passage by congress in 2010. also testimony from centers for medicare and medicaid services center live tomorrow at 9:30 eastern here on c-span3. secretary of state john kerry testifies before the senate foreign relations committee about combating isis. and possible new authorization for the use of military force. our live coverage begins at 2:00 p.m. eastern on c-span3. and wednesday the house elect committee on benghazi hears from assistant secretary of state for diplomatic security greg starr, and state department general steve len knock. that hearing starts at 10:00 a.m. eastern wednesday live on c-span3. tonight on the communicators, kim zeter on what
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