of the story took place. i'm in the study looking at the houses they would have looked at where they were realizing somehow i have stumbled into the case at which these women are the central characters and i started drinking. it seemed a remarkable coincidence. it is just that -- a coincidence. it is in a city that's spookimespooky. an uncanny moment. >> thank you. >> any other questions? okay. well, thank you. you have been a great audience. [ applause ] >> feel free to e-mail me. maross@umv.e du with comments on the book. i would love to hear from you. thank you for coming. [ applause ] >> during this holiday season we are showing american history tv programs. here is a look at what's ahead.

next supreme court justices john roberts and stephen bryer talk about the magna carta and a look at the dre d scott case and the origins of the civil war. later a discussion about former supreme court justice roger toney, his role in the scott case and the civil war. >> up next, u.s. supreme court chief justice john roberts joins igor judge, the former lord chief justice of england and wael withes to discuss the magna carta on its 800th anniversary and the importance for the american and british judicial systems. they spoke at the library of congress where a copy is on display. king john signed the document under pressure from barons. american revolutionaries look to the rights guaranteed by the magna carta as they repelled against the english crown.

>> good afternoon, everyone. i'm the law librarians of congress. on behalf of dr. james billing ton the librarian i want to welcome you to the beautiful members room in the thomas jefferson building of the library of congress. we are fortunate and honored today to have with us chief justice john roberts from the united states supreme court and the right honorable lord judge former lord chief justice of england and wales. they have agreed to sit down with us today to have a conversation about magna carta and its legal legacy. tomorrow is a very big day for us here at the library of congress. in particular the staff of the law library. for three years we have been planning and working. tomorrow we can open officially our exhibit. magna carta, muse and mentor. right here in the south gallery of this building. it's been a joy working on this.

the exhibition is the beginning for the library to celebrate the 800th anniversary of magna carta which will take place next year. as i know many of you know, the center piece for the library of congress exhibition will be the magnificent lincoln, king john magna carta which is graciously loaned to the library from lincoln cathedral in england. it's one of the four existing kpem police forexemplifkpem plo to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the first time the king john magna carta was on display here at the library of congress. some of you may know that in 1939 in november the lincoln magna carta was entrusted to the library of congress and put on display.

entrusted to user for safe keeping at the beginning of world war ii. our exhibition looks at the influence on rule of oh law and the impact on the development of the constitutional order here in america. it looks at principles from 17th century interpretations of magna carta like the principle of representative government. the right to due process, trial by jury. the protection from unlawful imprisonment. the privilege of the writ of habs corpse and the theory of limited government. what better way to prepare for tomorrow's opening then to sit with chief justice roberts and lord judge to have a conversation about this great document to hear their thoughts on its legacy. thank you very much, lord judge and chief justice roberts.

>> sure. >> chief justice roberts began his appointment as head of the federal judiciary here in the united states in 2005. lord judge was appointed lord chief justice of england and wales in 2008. as lord chief justice of eng gland and wales he was head of the judiciary and head of the courts of england and wales. one other thing that in addition to both of them leading the judiciary in their respective countries, one other item they have in common is that both are benchers of the honorable society of the middle temple which is one of the four ancient organizations in england with the privilege of calling their members to be baristers in england. with that introduction i want to start -- excuse me. i thought we could start with our conversation focusing on magna carta and its meaning to us in the present time.

in modern times. when we talk about magna carta now we focus on the fact that it was a great influence on the development of legal systems across the world and on the rise of the modern state. we also know that in the united kingdom in particular, most of the provisions of have been repealed and certainly in the united states. if magna carta were ever considered constitutional law -- and i say that with a small c -- certainly it would have been superceded by the united states constitution. so my question is why is it important for us, for our respective countries to continue to commemorate magna carta in this way? i will start with justice roberts.7céq >> thank you. well, it is, of course, first and foremost an imposing symbol. the exact origins of it, i don't think it would have been regarded as a bill of rights when it was issued. the barons and the king, i don't think, were interested in

promulgating rights that would apply across the board. but over time it's become a creditle call symbol. it was a vital symbol during our revolution. john adamsji1 referred to it. if you look at the seal of massachusetts it shows a militia man with a sword in one hand and the magna carta in the other. it embodied for the colonists what they were looking for in the beginning. they weren't looking for independence. they were looking for the rights of englishmen. those were represented by magna carta. it was, as the state seal of massachusetts, engraved by paul revere shows. you mentioned 1939 transfer of magna carta for safe keeping.

that was a powerful symbol. the british didn't give it over lightly. i think they did so in a calculated way. they wanted to remind us that this is what they were fighting for. and convey the strong he is saj that you should be, too. so it is very useful as a symbol that represents the rule of law, liberties. it's been reinvented over the years. the american colonists, when they look to it, were looking to it as interpreted by blackstone which gave a lot more substance to it as a charter of liberty than i think might have been done it continued to be a powerful symbol at the time of the second world war.

they look at basic fundamental liberties. >> i agree with that. i think what the chief justice said about the magna carta being here in 1939 reminds us that although this sounds like anerd academic subject, it isn't. in 1939 and 1940 there was a very strong possibility, in fact, further by the end of 1940 all europe bar the islands offshore was under the jack root. it's easy for us this this beautiful building to take for granted that all the things that matter to us about our free doms will last forever. they don't necessarily last forever. in 1939-40 england was very close -- britain was close to losing the war. for the charter to be here meant it would be preserved.

of course lincoln cathedral wanted it back. any cathedral has a treasure of, well, infinite magnitude. if you don't take for granted -- don't take your freedoms for granted magna carta becomes a much more vivid, vibrant document. if i may just go back to it, there are actually four charters. 1215, 1216, 1217, 1225. none is call ced magna carta. king george never signed one. he sealed it. the three things that are perhaps most important are one clause that people forget is claus 61. it's from this that we take the very vivid principle that nobody is above the law. no king, king anointed, god servant, inherits by divine luck, you could call it. but right. now every king in medieval

europe made an oath to be a good king, do lots of justice, look after lots of poor people. all the sort of oh things you would want your new king to do. but in medieval europe if the king didn't provide justice and so on and so forth, i'm afraid they took the view that he had to answer to god in heaven. it's no good if you haven't been properly looked after. magna carta said in 61 if the king doesn't abide by the charterer when notified that he's in breach of it, in effect a council of 25 barons can take over the running of the kingdom. they are not to harm him, injure him, treat him with violence or his family. but they are no longer stuck with the oaths of allegiance and f erk fealty. this is an important moment.

suddenly the king is answerable on oh earth, not just in heaven. from this we references to the king not being above the law. the law comes first. the king comes second. he's certainly the most important person in the kingdom. but he's beneath the law. i think that leads us to this, i think, really important point. it's easy in a democracy to overlook but in a dictatorship would be no trouble at all. no king is above the law. no president is above the law. no executive is above the law. everyone is answerable for his actions, or her actions in court. that leads to the second. i'm not going to talk about this too longment we are all entitled to justice. the clauses don't just say justice. they talk about right and justice. there weren't many rights about in 1215. over the centuries our rights

have come to be established. you find the preservation, the entitlement to a court system which will preserve your rights is found there within the charter. i look at that as being the second most important legacy to us. here in the office of chief justice of the united states the office i held once in england, we are responsible for seeing justice is available to all citizens, even if they are taking on the president or the government, the prime minister. these rights are recognized in the charter. the barons weren't thinking of us. the barons weren't, you know, full of ideas about voting.

as our country twopd and yours, these things became part of the country. in england if people see something as diabolical people say it's against magna carta. it isn't. there is not a word about trial by jury. people think of it as representing their rights, entitlements, the need for justice to be done and equality before the law. you mentioned no one is above the law specifically. we know magna carta is a symbol it represents as opposed to specific provision in there. why is it then today that people should still cite to it, especially in law. for example if they have a submission to the court or a judicial opinion coming out.

is there more reason for having references to magna carta? is it the deeper meaning to do that? >> you want to go first on that? >> well, sure. if you are citing the magna carta in a brief before the supreme court of the united states or at an argument, you're in bad shape. we like our authorities more current and directly on point. i went back, looked and magna carta has been cited in supreme court opinions of the united states only 150 times. it isn't that many over two centuries. i did once, not long ago.

in a case called hosanna tallbore, a religious free exercise case. i thought it was interesting that the first paragraph preserves the freedoms of the church of england including the right to free election of clergy. i noticed something that i think tells you that there was a writ issued directing a group to hold a free election, but for bidding them to elect anyone other than richard, his clerk. the sentiment was there and could be looked to. the reality was often different. there are many provisions citeded to the court.

but citations to the magna carta are unusual. >> our experience is the same. if the best you can do on magna carta on the whole, you're on thin ground. you have a written constitution. we have a partly written constitution, partly not. but it still carries a resonance. the civil justice system was in disarray. cases were taking too long. they were meandering and the judiciary decided which was not the way the administration of justice should operate. relying on magna carta and justice delayed is justice denied a new branch of jurisprudence called wont of

prosecution was created. some say it ought to be stopped but the structure saying we will not put up with this, the judicial system cannot accept this kind of slow process. had magna carta as part of the support for it. if you say magna carta, you're probably short of better authority. nevertheless it remains a useful reminder to us including the judges that there are very basic principles which govern our lives. govern our judicial lives and which we should be alert to. then bear in mind, one last point on this. david said at his introduction we talk about habeas corpus. we have the bill of rights here.

these are in direct lineage for magna carta. the fact that counsel says magna carta is my best authority, that doesn't seem strong. when you examine the lineage which has come down from magna carta, many of the arguments which are well founded. >> i think maybe we'll move along and talk about. when i mention ed. a lot are drawn from interpretations. people here today will ask us, you can look at it in that

context it wasn't talking about democracy as we know it today. certainly democracy. we say the legitimacy of the state depending on the will of the people. back then it was king john and the barons. how did the predemocratic origin s here on this side of of the atlantic ocean. how did that influence the legal system and the development of a constitutional government then. >> i keep turning to you. i can certainly turn -- >> it's an interesting relationship. because the development of our constituti constitution. it's mentioned only once in the federalist papers. in a distinguishing way.

hamilton in federalist 84 made the point we do not derive our rights from a sovereign. that's not how the new constituti constitution. that we the people give in the constitution. our protection is not rights from the king. our protection is we are setting up the government and will allow it to do a limited number of things. you look at this and say the magna carta had little role to play. we think of it as a laundry list of oh rights. it may make more sense to view it that way in the sense you had the king with authority and the

barons claiming their own authorities. most prominently with respect to american political thought. the notion of a government of separated powers. i do think that traces somewhat back to magna carta. >> i agree with the chief. the reason why magna carta survived at all is it's a pure historic accident. all promising to do these things. the thing that made the difference and it became the call for the colonists when the stamp act was passed.

calling a council. it's not representative government at all. but in the clauses of magna carta there is a claus called the scootage clause. would you like to knowwct8 wha is? you bring the three soldiers. i'm off to fight a war. the old boy and the farmer got a bad back. somebody got a hook and somebody got a rake. wasn't very are clever. we'll change this. give us money. we'll employ the mercenariemerc.

so many things stem from that. once the king can't rule out of his own money he has to go and ask. you can have your tax if you will give us the charter. it was this battle that went on in our country that ultimately culminated in not a democratic process but a parliamentary process. it was to this very line that john dicken son was referring when the 1785 stamp act was passed by a british article

meant for the first time imposing direct taxation on the citizens of the colonies. they have plenty of tax forj&+x imports and ex ports. but the issue came alive. hang on, we are being taxed. >> they were. >> we are not represented anywhere. and they with respect. -- weren't. so the no taxation without representation is a long continuing steady development as part of the process. people are asking why should only people with land have a vote? each generation see s new things it finds unacceptable. it all stems from the process. >> thank you. i want to go back to something that the chief justice

mentioned. that's a question i planned on asking. because when we talk about magna carta, the story, the myth, if you will, other tver the years symbolically represent democracy, the king, someone who is overreaching the state and the baron or the people. in our contemporary legal systems it's the judiciary that you both have headed in your case. that played the role of deciding whether there should be a limit or not or if something has been over stepped, things like that. you can talk a little bit about the ideal of the commitment within with magna carta to the rule of law. i don't think the barons would say much about that.

there is a much greater, more significant role in the constitutional arrangements of your country than our oh supreme court has. in our country, ultimate ly a parliament that could pass the stamp act and impose taxation on you and then a declaration you had to obey any act of parliament and so on and so forth was not the way to go forward.

it was much more significant constitutionally than our ohs. we rest most of it in parliament. in the end in our country. everybody is acting in accordance with the law. we have plenty of judicial review. our present government is taking great umbrage at the applications that are made. the power is through judicial review. it's a slightly different process to the ones you have here. ultimately decided here by your supreme court. in england and wales with and great britain it's decided ultimately by parliament.

>> it's interesting. if you look at one of the great doors in the front of the supreme court, there is one with four panels. the panel on the bottom is king john's magna carta. the next panel up is the 1275 statute of westminster. the next one is james the first. on top is john marshall and joseph story. they are said to be discussing marbury versus madison. unfortunately the architect said they are not talking about marbury at all. the facts shouldn't interfere with a good story.

you have the text and the statute. if the statute conflicts with the text one of the other has to yield. enforcing the judgment, we are deciding a simple case between mar bury and madison. to do so we have to see which text controls and the constitution trumps the statute. there is no judicial review clause in the constitution. there is a provision that the court will decide cases and controversies. h marshall said we have to decide if the statute conflicts with the constitution and we have to decide the constitution you are

dealing with writing. not dealing with broader interpretation that you might expect from the political branches. at least on the theory of how law was practiced at the time. you are not imposing your will. talking about the concept of higher law. here we are talking about the underlying tradition that there is a higher law underlying rights. of course we know magna carta itself doesn't set itself apart

as a higher law of sorts. it was used in that way as a model for upholding constitutional limits to statutes. since we have talked about it. i guess i will start with chief justice roberts. that model may not work for us today. is there anything we might cite to as an analog from our oh legal system that can lead us to this similar reading. >> we can think of it still as ours. something like magna carta. we don't have a higherer law in the sense of a natural law or something that would supercede the constitution. the interpretation. if you are asking for where the

spirit of the document can be found, it does go back to magna carta. we claim that as much of our legal heritage. it doesn't have as much power as we decided to give it. they needed to more or less promise to add a bill of rights at the end. when you look at it, of course, it certainly has echoes of magna carta in it. i can see people thinking of magna carta as a higher law that informed our constitution. it wouldn't be something that we would cite to and say -- we wouldn't appeal to it to get beyond the constitution. as some theorists have.ik÷zñ

>> i share that viewment you have to be rather careful. whether they are jurists, academics or just citizens or politicians. claiming that there is some natural law to the justify whatever they wish to justify. that becomes vague, doesn't it? your natural law, your sense of morality. mine, his, hers. can all be very different. you need a very clear structure in the law. i don't think it was appealing to higher authority. it was just trying to bring the king down to earthment subject to the law. the only other oh thing i would add is it's very significant that when the first charter of virginia was issued in 1616, guess what its title was -- the

great charter, magna carta. it was created by a man called edwin sands, a member of the middle temple like your chief is and i am who have been impris imprisoned by the king. somehow or other he bamboozled the king into giving the charter to virginia in which the rights of the colonists in virginia were to be the same as any englishman. they included equality before the law, free speech and trial by jury. thus the first charter in the united states came to be called in effect only in english, magna carta. there were a lot of stories that can go on. what i'm driving at is that it's not a higher law issue at all. these are the rights that you have as a colonist.

>> celebrating the 800th anniversary but thinking about magna carta and the future. we have mentioned it's a symbol. it symbolizes rule of law, popular sovereignty, limited government. i guess my question would be if you were to think about this as a symbol, which of those and any other ones that might stand for would you prefer magna carta to stand for for the next 800 years to lead us forward into the future. >> i have no doubt about my view. it's rule of oh law. because all the others actually

stem from respect for the rule of law. that's the one that i would say is the most precious of all and the one which i i hope will continue. what we have built on that corner stone is the rule of law. you have to be careful not to think of it as a throw away phrase. lord judge, you and i see it every day. just across the street. nine lawyers and in front of us is another lawyer, arguing a particular point.

the ability to represent the united states. when i was in private practice it was more thrilling. you knew all uh you had to do was convince five other lawyers your view was correct and the united states government, the most powerful force on earth recede from their position. that's what we mean by the rule of law. what happens in the supreme court building across the street. what happens in your additional buildings is a restraint of power and might. exactly what the barons were doing at run anymede when they coerced the king into the chart er. it traces its origins to magna carta.

>> we live in communities which are basically peaceful. everybody has troubles from time to time. i believe that most people respect in our countries respect the rule of law. they don't want violence in the streets. they want people to be arrested. they don't always want the strong to win. this is practical rule of law. this is what means people go up and down the street, just getting on with their lives. looking after their families and so on. rule of oh law isn't a wonderful academic subject. it's practical, hard reality. >> thank you. my last question really was just to open it up and say is there any one final thought you would like us to think about. >> yes. i want to go back to where i began. a few years ago i took to a

seminar in europe, run in the hay which is a wonderful city with a wonderful tradition of justice itself. i was explaining about trial by jury. and saying to them, of course, if we did have a government that said all men with red hair must be in prison for six months, we like to think such a statute would simply be disobeyed by a jury which would say not guilty even if the man's head was as read as a beacon. big joke. laughter. but afterwards the man who was the chief justice in belgium, a

man whom i respect very much said you know that little joke you told. he said there wasn't a country represented which has not had at least one government in this century capable of oh making orders that led to people being locked up and in many cases killed. there isn't one here. you don't realize how fortunate you are that there is a channel between you and us. you have to be careful never to take things for granted. the rule of law applies because you have judges. it also matters that the community.

that's a crucial part of it. 4ñ community thing. we are all in it together. nevertheless they respect it. that's where we are lucky. they are precious to everybody in the street i was talking about a few minutes ago: >> the most imposing, impressive, expansive list of rights that i have ever read was found on the constitution of the soviet union. the words that we are talking about, whether in our bill of rights or a magna carta can be

mere parch meament barriers unl they are supported by the people. in our case by we the people. over 800 years. it gives meaning to the magna carta and its continuing influence. one reason i think the 800th celebration is important we have the obligation to carry forward the values represented in the document so it doesn't become simply a list of meaningless rights as it was in the soviet constitution. >> very well said. that's why we celebrate the 800th anniversary of the magna carta. thank you very much for coming this afternoon. i hope you will join me in thanking lord judge and chief

justice roberts. [ applause ] >> thank you. >> thank you very much. well done. >> well done. >> thank you. >> i hope you will join us for a small reception in the back of the room. remember, tomorrow we open our exhibition tomorrow morning. it will be here at the library of congress through january 19 of next year. please come back and see us often. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> you have been watching c-span's american history tv. we want to hear from you. follow us on twitter @cspan history. connect with us at facebook.com/cspan history. you can leave comments, too. check out our upcoming programs at our website -- c-span.org/history. >> we'd like to tell you about some of our other american

history tv programs. join us every sunday at 4:00 p.m. eastern for reel america featuring films by government, industry and educational institutions. join us as these films take you on a journey through the 20th century. again that's reel america every sunday at 4:00 p.m. eastern here on american history tv on c-span3. >> here are some of the featured programs you will find this holiday weekend on the c-span networks. saturday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. supreme court justice ele this, a kagan at princeton, university. sunday evening at 8:00 on q & a, fact checker author glen kessler on his end of the year biggest pinocchios of 2014 awards. on c-span 2 saturday night at 10:00 on book tv's after words, reason magazine senior editor damon root on the battle of supreme court activism and judicial restraint. sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern