produced by the cuban people who live on the big island with the tropical climate. >> president ford pardoned former president nixon 40 years ago on september 8 1974 a month after the only presidential resignation in american history. next on american history tv author and history professor john robert green considers two questions. why did president ford pardon richard nixon? and is there a deal between the two men? he discusses the days leading up to the pardon and president ford's 1978 address to the nation. mr. green is the author of the presidency of gerald ford. the hour-long event was hosted by the kansas city public library and the truman library institute. >> well good evening and welcome to the kansas city public library.

i'm harry fortanado drk tore of public affairs. i want to thank you for joining us in the latest it ration of the hail to the chief's lecture series co-presented by our partners a the trueman library institute the foundation arm of the harry s. truman library museum and independence. here at the library, we just love to do programs commemorating anniversaries. and such as the case tonight, 40 years ago. well technically, 39 years and 363 days ago. but work with me on this -- gerald ford became the first and to date the only unelected president of the united states. an outcome that would have been beyond conception just two years earlier when richard nixon was cruising to his landslide

victory over george mcgovern. to tell us more about that in the administration that ensued we've brought back for the third time dr. john robert green. but you can call him bob. who among many claims to fame ranks as the first historian to perform a serious scholarly study on the administration. the first edition of his book was published some 19 years ago by the university press of kansas, it's still in print, i'm happy to report on its fourth printing. of course being a pioneer has its disadvantages. the report that in the early days he was often asked if his interest in the ford presidency was a function of the fact that all of the more interesting presidents have been taken. thoughts of this nature do a

disservice to bob's scholarship let alone the subject of his inquiry. ford is generally remembered as a genuinely honest man who did his best to heal the country after the betrayals of watergate, bob argues there's a lot more to the 38th president than a likable guy who performed a credible job as a national caretaker. it was here in kansas city in 1976 -- 1976 i have a feeling we'll be commemorating that anniversary in about two years. when gerald ford received the gop nomination for president after a hard fought and close run primary campaign against ronald reagan. so the library of good friend dick berkeley in the audience with his wife sandy, was then a young city council member and he was at the white house with the

fords to mark the announcement as k.c. as the convention city. he was a city council member at the time who sported the most perfect afro ever worn by anyone in the history of hair styling. bob green who has a good head of hair makes me very jealous is at casanovia college. he taught there for the past 35 years. he serves as the college archivist. he's the serious scholar of the american presidency and has written 17 books, three of them have been the basis for talks here in the kansas city public library. george h.w. bush in 2012 betty ford in 2013. and gerald ford tonight. gerald r. ford available for sale courtesy of the bookstores

so is the biography of betty ford. a young man sort of vague lyly possesses add resemblance to me. don't do a double take. that's the first born son soon to be a senior and majoring in history of all things. he's working his way through school so buy many copies of "the presidency of gerald r. ford" as you can. bob will be happy to sign each and every one of them. ladies and gentlemen please welcome bob green. [ applause ] >> don't buy the book to put his kid through

you didn't think i was going start with them, did you? on august 8 1974 the day before richard nixon resigned as president of the united states after he had made his decision, after he had spoken to the american people, he went out to the rose garden and as was usually the case in those days, he was followed closely by his secretary of state and director of national security henry kissinger nixon was by all accounts just simply drained of

all energy. kissinger was physically and emotionally profrp propping him up as nixon was going to go back to the residence to relax before the next day's trip back to california kissinger according to his memoirs and nixons was struggling for something to say to butter the president up he said, mr. president, historians will be kind to you in the future. this was nixon's answer -- i've been fortunate to write histories of nixon and bush and tonight of gerald ford for the university of press of kansas the series on the presidency is one of the prestige places to place a manuscript on the presidency.

i'm proud to be with them. and i'm proud to have those books here for you when you read them. you have anything to say to me about them please by all means, e-mail me and i'll have an undergraduate student rep respond. what i want to do tonight with president ford is a little bit unorthodox. i did president bush here with you, i tried to do a tour deforce of everything that had happened with president bush from the time he took office until the time he left after the defeat by bill clinton. i want to kind of compact that tonight and then talk with you about what is the most often asked question of me about gerald ford. i had the opportunity to interview president ford on a number of occasions. i worked with him on several occasions. and i want to try and answer

that question for you tonight. but before we get to that question let's kind of remind ourselves with this audience of literate, thoughtful experts here who are well read what happens in the ford years. the recession. the recession that began as a result of the vietnam war ending and the result of problems with richard nixon's wage and price control policy. green span's hawks ford along with other people into cutting taxes. domestic policy in the ford years was what i call in the book a series of brush fires.

that ford and his staff were putting out all through the administration. the troublesome nomination of rockefeller as vice president of the united states many scholars who believe that nomination cost ford the election in 1976. because he had to bussing was not only constitutional but could be mandated in the united states and in the streets of south boston. a little closer to home ford's decision not to support financial bailouts of new york city which led hugh carrie to give this wonderful interview that led to this particular headline, one of the best headlines of the ford presidency. lesser known no more important is the explosion of the cia.

the leak of the document called the family jewels which led to the -- which led to the public announce thamt the cia spied domestically. that the kennedy administration tried to assassinate castro? leads to the complete overhaul of the cia which led to george bush coming in of george bush as the cia director. that's a hack. i know the story of why it's on president ford's head but i won't say it for c-span. president ford did not want to wear that hat at that time, but this is the moscow summit. this is indicative of the changing motif of detente. ford inherented detente from richard nixon. he had trouble with human rights, he had trouble with

alexander. and when ford left office jimmy carter was bequest with a foreign policy with the soviet union that may very well have stepped back a few steps. world events didn't help that then. these are inherited problems. many of the problems gerald ford had to deal with were given to richard nixon not the least of which was the need to evacuate saigon in the spring of 1975 and another famous and unfortunate photograph making it look as if the ambassador staff from saigon was literally pushing people out of the way and it was a difficult situation. the vietnamese themselves called the running. and the -- the taking of a -- of

a boat outside of the arbor in cambodia where ford decided only weeks after the fall of saigon to send in marines to retrieve the sailors of the myagua. he retrieved them a loss of marine life who exceeded the number of sailers and some said ford was doing it simply to look tough. but then there was this other side. this is the first day of the presidency of gerald ford. he leaves his home in alexandria virginia saying good-bye to the misses wearing a baseball -- a golf cap. i never saw president ford on colorado without a golf cap on carrying his work and leaving for the white house. the everyday guy the force of

grand rapids the fact that this was contrasted in the press to the rather stiff and stayed nixon family. but the flip side of this was what "saturday night live" did to him. and the perception -- and president ford did tell me it's one of the most pleasant things in his entire life was getting to trip chevy chase out at the gerald ford library. the perception that there was something less than intellectually strong about gerald ford, that he was a bit of a klutz. it couldn't have been anything further from the truth. he played this up. the staff kind of liked this because it made ford look ordinary. and chevy chase comes out and with his devastating parodies reports it became a bit of a problem as ford eased into the 1976 election.

now i'm sure that berkeley was at the 1976 convention in the upper right-hand corner. i chose the picture specifically, not president ford accepting the nomination. but ronald reagan who ford has brought down from the stands comment ing commenting on gerald ford. he lost the 1976 election here in kansas city because it was so close in that race with ronald reagan. and what he allowed him to do with jimmy carter was give him the opportunity to beat gerald ford over the head with the morality call, beat him senseless with it and ford lost a very close election. we can all go home now that the entirety of the gerald ford administration, except for one thing, what did i leave out?

that's what i want to spend the rest of our time together talking about. the two most often asked questions of me about gerald ford. was there a deal? and why did he do it? when i had did he pardon richard nixon? because henry in his gracious opening reminds us that the ford administration celebrating the 40th anniversary in a few days here as we are recording this in the summer of 2014 one month to the day after ford takes office he pardons richard nixon. maybe an even more important anniversary to remember. let's look at the two questions.

i want to first talk about question of whether or not there was a deal between richard nixon, gerald ford, or anybody in ford's staff to give richard nixon a pardon after ford took office? to do this we have to go back to the first of august, 1974. days after the supreme court has made its decision that nixon must release all of the tapes, not just transcripts of the tapes, not his edited versions of the tapes, but must give all of the tapes turnover the special prosecutor to leon jaworski and to john shrinka. on the morning that was to happen nixon's chief of staff, alexander haig calls vice

president ford and says i need to speak with you. ford goes over. haig is surprised that ford brings with him bob hartman. hartman, a former newspaper reporter and good friend of vice president ford's was brought in to this meeting not just because bob hartman went to every meter, he did with vice president ford. but ford knew something was up and he needed a witness. haig tells ford in this meeting, he could hardly get rid of them haig tells ford that what is going to happen in the next 24 hours could possibly be the tipping point in the nixon presidency. he doesn't give a handout. haig knows that the tapes are going to come to the white house. haig absolutely knows that the tapes are going to come to the white house. ford thought that haig was

holding something back. in a moment you'll see what haig was holding back. and he talks to hartman on the way out and he says well i kind of heard this before you know, no great problem. i'm going to keep my speeches today. and hartman goes to his office. ford then gets another phone call from al haig. he says mr. vice president, i need so see you and you can't bring bob hartman with you. ford goes back to haig's office and haig shares with gerald ford the contents of the smoking gun conversation from june 1972 where richard nixon tells bob haldeman on tape that's another story, tells haldeman on tape that haldeman is to stop the cia investigation of watergate. it was an obstruction of

justice, nixon was guilty. end of that story. ford sees the transcript knows nixon has to resign. famous sentences that haig and ford say mr. president, are you willing and able to take over the office of the presidency of the united states at any given moment? and ford says yes i am. he says wait a minute, i'm authorized to give you a list of options. these options can take place if you choose to as president. one of them was as haig says to ford, the option of pardoning the president. ford does nothing. in fact he leaves haig with the feeling that perhaps he's considering it. he leaves the meeting and goes and meets with hartman again. congress

to testify. the evidence shows this is absolutely true, there was no deal. but he did pardon richard nixon. he pardoned him on september 9 1974. the pardon was full. the pardon was absolute. and as you'll see in a moment, the real story of the pardon is it was before indictment. before richard nixon had actually been indicted of a crime. richard nixon was pardoned for crimes that he hasn't been charged with yet. so the question is, why?

and to get to that question that's even more difficult to explain than the deal of the pardon, you have to look back to president ford's inaugural address. one of the shortest inaugural address that's on record and i'm of the opinion the shorter the inaugural address, the better i'm of the opinion the shorter the address from an academic the better. this was the operative line. there's only one problem, it wasn't true. a long national nightmare was far from over. and gerald ford knew it. it wasn't anything that was going to happen magical. just simply by the fact that he moved into the white house and richard nixon moved out. because it wasn't just watergate. it was vietnam and it was two decades of lying on the part of the federal government to the american people just beginning

to come out. how do you fix that? from the first moment of the ford presidency, ford is besiegeled by his advisors particularly henry kissinger who for almost a month takes every opportunity with the presidency to bring it up. he's besieged with requests to pardon richard nixon. ford endures these because what he's done is he's kept almost intact richard nixon's cabinet and richard nixon's close staff. he said at one point in time why didn't you fire henry kissinger, a name that came from nowhere. he said when you're flying a plane, doesn't make much sense to shoot the pilot.

they were just getting their feet on the ground. and here all of the nixon loyalists saying to him, you have to pardon the president. the original logic was let's put the nightmare behind us. it started to get personal. in the middle of august ford started to get reports that richard nixon was ill. nixon as you know had almost debilitating phlebitis. this is probably the late 1970s early 1980s that he's going on to one of his many operations for phlebitis. one of the people who went out to see nixon right after the resignation comes back and reports to ford and he says you know, this president is going to be dead before the election. and ford says you know 1976 is a long way off.

he says i'm not talking 1976 i'm talking 1974 in three months. so ford is getting these reports back. having written about gerald ford having the material at the library, having met him on a number of occasions, i can say with absolute concernty that he was a good guy. that it wasn't for show. he did not pardon nixon because he felt sorry for him. he feels putting these people off. he pardoned richard nixon because of something that happened on august 28 1974. ford had been putting off having

a full press conference. it did not want to meet the press until he had gotten his feet on the ground a little bit more. and until he had had an opportunity to talk with all of his close advisors. so he goes out in front of the press. the first question is about whether he's going to pardon richard nixon. if you watch this tape back ford looks genuinely stunned. like what? and then he goes through sort of a prepared answer. then he turns to tom brokaw. it's clear in ford's mind when he does this that he thinks he's going to a safe reporter. brokaw's question is on the pardon. and ford now looks genuinely angry. 32 questions were asked in that press conference, 28 of them were on the pardon. and the last one of them was from linda wortheimer.

she cuts through everything and do you intend to leave the option open to pardon nixon. ford steps right in it. i'm president, i have that option. true, the constitution gives him the option. but what's the headline the next day? gerald ford is probably going to pardon richard nixon. he's leaving the option open. ford is steaming. like how can i possibly get rid of this albatross? what can i do to -- do you like this? what can i do to get rid of the -- yeah, the ghost of richard nixon. the ghost of richard nixon past. somebody got it. what can i do to get rid of this? the people around ford were genuinely caught offguard by the press. they saw it as an attack. ford calls in that afternoon his

absolute closest advisor phil buken. phil buken was ford's law partner. in grand rapids. they formed their partnership immediately after ford got out of -- got out of the navy. probably ford's closest and professional friend phil buicken comes to the white house as white house counsel. he said to him, we've got to pardon him. we've got to figure this out. he charged buken to look into the nuts and bolts as to how a pardon might happen. buken says we've got to talk to everyone. and in two meetings on the 29th and 30th of august ford finds out his then closest aids henry

kissinger, al haig phil buken and jack marsh. on the meeting of august 29 ford says i'm thinking about it. go home and tell me tomorrow what your recommendations are. the next day on the 30th, they reconvene. i caning her and haig not surprisingly say, do it now. hartman and buken, why now? he hasn't been charged with a crime. how can you constitutionally pardon someone who has not been charged with anything? and jack marsh says do you really think this is the right thing do? and ford says, 1,000 angels

dancing on the head of a pin couldn't convince me it was right as long as i think it's right. they all shook their head. he had his consensus. he was going to pardon richard nixon. now the question was how and when. one of the key players in what was going to happen for the next 48 hours was benson becker. he was a lawyer who had done some work for ford when he was a majority leader. close to phil buken. you need to constitutionally check president of the united states to pardon an indictment. buken -- becker didn't need to be told what this was all about. he goes home for the weekend and writes, the thickest memo i think i've read in a presidential library gets to the end, essentially says you

can do it. there's no limit to the presidential pardoning power. for them to be convicted, do it mid trial, do it before an indictment, when ever you want. but there's a small matter that needed to be negotiated with richard nixon. before nixon would accept a pardon because that's the next stage of this. ford's now been told he can pardon him. his closest aides were saying yeah, okay. will nixon accept it? nixon would not accept a pardon from gerald ford without a deal that had to -- that took care of his papers and tapes. now, had stories from people in the white house, both the ford and nixon white house that relate to the physical nightmare

that gerald ford inherited the papers and tapes of richard nixon stored in closets, under stairwells. the famous white house tapes were apparently kept under a series of white house staircases. and were in the very real process of deteriorating. plus they're a nightmare of legal nonsense. suppose richard nixon is charged with some sort of a crime. and suppose that leon jaworski decides he's going to subpoena some of these tapes from the white house. then it's gerald ford's decision. as to whether the special prosecutor gets these tapes, this nightmare just isn't going to go away. ford's inclination is put it all on the truck and send it out to san clemente. at that point in time it was the league understanding that the papers were the president's personal property. that's no longer the case.

postronald reagan the papers of the american presidents are the property of the american people. and stored in archives. these papers nearby of harry truman were his physical property to do with as he wished. same with richard nixon, but then there's these legal issues. and so what was negotiated between buken becker and jack miller, one of nixon's lawyers, was a very complex deal. the deal would give richard nixon. he accepts a pardon. there's a lot of people understanding richard nixon should accept it. if he accepts it the federal government keeps one set of keys on the paper. nixon keeps another set of keys on the papers. he can get to it when ever he wants. he's the ownership. i have to go back to the book to look at the details. it was very very complex.

but they come to ford and say, okay, we've got a deal. and then ford drops the bombshell. no deal -- i want him to say he's sorry. kissinger looks at him and says, you will never get it. ford says to becker that's part of the deal. you've got to go out there. and becker must -- who i interview says he's going on this plane thinking i've got to face the president of the united states and come to apologize for watergate. they get out to san clemente and jack miller and becker go out to talk and they're met at the door by ron ziegler. ziegler who just recently passed away, was ford's -- sorry, nixon's press secretary for the entirety of the nixon administration. very young man. passed away at a young age. he meets him at the door opens

the door and before they say anything, says, this president will not say he's sorry for anything. there's only one way that ziegler knows this. somebody in the white house told him. i have my suspicions. but they're just as good as yours. we don't know who tipped that hand. but it's through -- but it threw becker and miller for a loop. by the time they were done negotiating, by the time they were done talking with ziegler, who represented nixon there, nixon did not sit down and physically negotiate the acceptance of the pardon. nixon had gotten everything that he wanted. he had gotten virtually complete control of the papers. and he was not being required to say anything even close to an

act of contrition to the american people. when nixon finally does meet w in

the senate had already voted articles of impeachment. had nixon not resigned within the space of pa week there would have been the setup for an impeachment trial and jaworski was going to throw the hail mary pass and charge the president of the united states with objection of justice. there would be no more impeachment hearings of course.

but richard nixon is a citizen of the united states. there was nothing to stop jaworski with charging him with that crime. he has a physical piece of evidence, a tape recording, showing that nixon was clearly guilty of that crime. ford did not want him to be charged with that crime. if there was a deal in the pardon, and i submit to you there was, it wasn't between nixon and ford. it was between phil buken acting for ford and leon jaworski. jaworski was somehow -- vague about this in his memoirs, somehow talked back from the brink and agrees not to indict richard nixon. one month to the day after richard nixon resigned from the presidency and gerald ford takes

over, gerald ford gives a very short taped address. not from the oval office. delivered taped. sunday morning when they thought that the news cycle wouldn't pick it up. a full pardon for crimes that were committed or may have been committed between a specific period of time. a full presidential pardon. nixon responds to that pardon without any act of contrition. it becomes almost too easy to say to the president -- to the core presidency went downhill from there.

that's simply not true. it's debatable whether or not the ford presidency cost ford the election in 1976. i argue in this very good book that is for sale out here in the hall to put henry's and my kids through school -- this outstanding book argues that it was only one part of the 1976 election. but not a lot of people felt like this kid in 1974. they weren't willing to give ford the benefit of the doubt. to say that all hell broke loose is an understatement. ford was immediately kpor shated for the deal. ford -- because, of course

there had to be a deal. at that point in time until just the past couple of months the american presidency was polling at its lowest point ever. not nixon, not ford but the american presidency polling at the lowest point ever. vietnam dragging it down watergate was dragging it down. there was no trust left. of course there had to be a deal. the democrats are saying, let me at him. the former governor of georgia who appeared on what's my line the tv show and nobody knew who he was.

immediately after the pardon of richard nixon ford is faced with another set of pardons that blends together with the issue of the pardon of nixon. that's the issue of clemency for draft dodgers. and for draft evaders. ford sets up a clemency board from his good friend from new york to hear every single case one at a time -- some went to prison, some were given amnesty. some were given work-related lease. it wasn't as it was portrayed by that wonderfully unbiassed paper in the east the"the new york times" as freedom from all draft evaders. it made it together and both then kind of played off against

each other. they blended together the two days after the pardon. fast forward to 2001. we see the pardon completely differently. if this isn't an odd couple i don't know what is. when ford gets it profile of courage award from the john f. kennedy library and the john f. kennedy foundation for his pardon of richard nixon. now i submit to you that while ford deserved as a man of honor. and as a -- and who was almost killed in world war ii almost blown off in the typhoon of blown off in his aircraft carrier, a man who served his

country honorably deserved to be called courageous. that wasn't what the pardon was all about. the pardon is trying to clean his desk so he can have the ford administration as he wants it. he wanted to get rid of that ghost. he's being honored something here that i think is true to his character but not true to the incident. gerald ford said to me when i asked him what is the most important thing that you want to be remembered for as president of the united states that night. he said i want to be -- if i'm remembered for anything i want to be remembered for healing this land. depending on how you view the pardon, i leave it up to you as to whether or not president ford did what he wanted to do.

i thank you and -- thank you. >> good evening. >> you're surrounded with all of these aides. they were that tone death to the response to the pardon. how could they not have anticipated that? >> because you have to remember that the people who were around ford at the time were a mix of his aides and nixon's aides. and he was getting a blizzard if you will almost like in a blender of advice. the nixon aides were saying don't worry about it. the ford aides theish the nixon aides were saying go ahead and do it. the ford aides said you have to hold back. it happened too soon.

i mean i might be well served by saying this. i think he should have waited. he should have waited a year let nixon be charged and then pardon him. and then he wouldn't have given reagan anywhere near the ammunition that he did. >> yes, sir? >> can i change gears a little bit here? >> by all means, it's your library? >> all right. two of the things i remember ford for and a lot of people do in terms of gaps. the statement in debate about europe. not being nominated by the soviet union. and not to say it's on the same level. but the wind buttons that we used to wear did you ever talk to him about that? >> oh absolutely. first of all, i saw a tape at the ford library where he practiced the lie -- he knew he was going to get a question on poland and he knew he was going to get a question on the occupation of eastern europe. what ford wanted to say but

mangled it was we do not believe that the presence of the soviet union in poland is legitimate. what he said was exactly what you said -- they aren't there. and frankel of the times does one of these. will goes what? he turns to pauline frederick, the moderator, says can i follow up. this is not in the deal. not supposed to follow up. you see carter say wait a minute. carter is pulling a fast one on it. he hands carter a gift. he says it again. the same thing. and carter comes back from the line that he says i would like for you to see the polish americans in buffalo that the soviet union are not in there. and virtually every polish vote goes with inflation now, ford wanted to try something with the nra, the blue eagle. this is the literature that surrounds this. the memos that he was getting. do something that people feel

they're participating because mr. president, the economy stinks and we don't know how to fix it. so let everybody believe we were happy. it was ill conceived. the big moment is when george harrison of the beatles goes to the white house. jack ford and poses with ford and billy preston who was like the fifth beatle and they're wearing buttons and ford is standing there going, i got to get away from that picture. both of those votes are foolish. you're right to bring them on. >> a couple of points that were raised. curious. one was in the newspaper page that you showed from i guess september 10 after the pardon there's a reference to alexander haig. and directly next to that alexander haig reporting -- >> bye-bye alexander. >> and the other one you mentioned that george bush and jaworski had a connection. i wanted your take on how those two things might have played out

the. >> i don't know the details. i know because of texas politics and houston politics they knew each other. i've seen some correspondence, most of it not germane at the bush library. in terms of a being farmed out to nato. that's part of a systematic part that gets back to this gentleman's question here. ford, too late decides he has to have his own administration and starts to move out is the members of the nixon administration. who does he get in? chief hoff staff, congressman from illinois, don rumsfeld who brings him with him a completely unknown kid from wyoming as his assistant chief of staff, dick cheney. you have ford being brought in at the cia. they call it the ford foul ball dagues. so many will go to work for ronald reagan or george bush and they say they really learned their craft under president ford.

>> i appreciate that. >> thank you. >> yes, sir. >> spiro agnew has to resign. >> he did. >> who championed jerry ford to be vice president? >> very good question. the list is long. the first question who championed him was mel laird. melvin laird who was a congressman from michigan and nixon's secretary of defense knew gerry ford very well. and he said -- by the way, this entire list everything they say to nixon is the same thing -- he will be confirmed. because nixon doesn't b want ford. ford. nixon wants john connolly. he wants john connolly the secretary of the treasury and would split with the democratic party. nixon feels a kinship with connolly. he wants connolly to run in 1976. everybody comes to him and says john connolly because of the milk scandal, john connolly because he's john connolly can't

be confirmed. gerry ford is liked by everybody. he'll sail through. now laird says through, charles goodell says so. i also saw literature where nix on polled i believe it was nelson rockefeller and other people who you wouldn't think would be supporters of richard nixon. but the net was cast widely. everybody comes back with gerry ford. but who's number two? george bush. it wasn't his time yet. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> final question, bob. not part of the ford administration, but part of the ford story that sort of weird moment at the 1980 republican convention where there was a brief moment when ford might have become reagan's vice presidential running mate? but he wanted to run half of the

cabinet or something? what was that all about? >> ronald reagan had gone through the -- what was a very bruising primary. and the second run -- the runner up was george bush. but nancy reagan didn't like george bush. nancy reagan did not like the fact that he had coined the term voodoo economics. bush had gotten out of talks

to walter cronkite. cronkite interviews him and cronkite's got pieces of the story. he says are you a candidate for the vice presidency? and ford goes on for two minutes without saying the word, "no." reagan is looking at this on television and goes crazy. he feels he's been betrayed. he feels you know, this -- and what he really says is this just shows that the co-presidency won't work. that jerry ford is not going to be that kind of a team player. and reagan turns to i think it was len and he says to him, bush. now, this -- someone who was close to those people in those

days said to me that ford actually knew what he was doing. that in fact he -- he -- i don't want to say committed suicide, but he did that so that reagan would, in fact choose bush. do you think -- >> i don't know that for a fact. the one thing that would argue against that henry, is that ford there is plenty of evidence that ford wanted to run for president again in 1980 particularly if he was going to run against carter. because, remember carter is almost mortally wounded because of the iranian hostage crisis. where every democrat thought they could be jerry ford in 1976, every republican thinks they can be jimmy carter in 1980. and ford figures, you know, let me have these guys beat eechl other up for a little bit. let him bloody reagan up a little bit. i've taken on ronald reagan before. i can do this instead of getting in the primaries, he was

so good on the stump, i'll go right to the convention and steal it from them. i'll take it from the delegates. that's where the knowledge falls off, and there's rumor. whether betty talked him out of it. hedy sided not to do it whether reagan ambushed it took him out of it by offering the vice presidency? nobody knowles. ford walks away from it and that's the end of his public career. >> bob, thank you again. third time is the charm. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> thank you all very, very much. i do want to remind you that bob's book on president ford and betty ford are available for sale and both of us would appreciate the tuition assistance programs. >> $150 apiece. . . .