he u.s. to conspire against the u.s. the cuban situation is not that bad, it's extremely bad. and if you will allow me one other comment upon your reflection i want to address directly what you asked. i want to ask, why is it that you can't go into cuba? why can't you travel to cuba? because if you're allowed to go to a cuban prison, all you will see are black people. hundreds of black men. you will see men who would rather jump from a rooftop and commit suicide, or you will see men bitten by dogs. you will see the beatings, you will see the persecution. you will see these very

far-flung sentences, these very high sentences. you will see dozens and dozens of political prisoners who weren't even mentioned in these negotiations. if you want to go to cuba, simply tell them you're not going to visit the prisons and you don't want to meet the dissidents. i think this addresses what you asked about discrimination in cuba. >> thank you very very much. you know, the "washington post" has done several editorials very, very critical of president obama's opening up or moving towards opening up diplomatic relations or further relations. and they made a very selling point, and i would just like to

underscore here, and that is that we're repeating mistakes that have been made in the past. when bill clinton went to vietnam and opened up relations with vietnam which followed very quickly with the bilateral trade agreement under president bush, many of us said it was a mistake not to get human rights reforms durable reforms first and then move to the diplomatic recognition followed by an economic relationship. the post points out that it is the way mr. obama has gone about this that is a mistake not reform first, but moving in to provide a lifeline as one of their editorials pointed out, a lifeline to a dictatorship at a time when venezuela is less capable of providing funding, and we know several years ago that funding from what was then the soviet union ceased to exist. a very opportune time to press the case for human rights and we

blew it when it came to vietnam. i have had passed in this congress three congresses and counting. the vietnam human rights act. majority leader harry reid would not put it up for a vote, but three times bipartisan legislation with clear benchmarks toward vietnam because they are in a race toward the bottom with china and cuba. cuba is already there. and yet we're moving haven't not learned a single lesson from those failed openings where they get stronger the dictatorship becomes further empowered. i firmly disagree with your comment about isolation. we're talking about financially enabling a lifeline to quote the "washington post," and one of their editorials was president obama's betrayal of cuban democrats. many of those some have already been rearrested that were let out, and of course as i pointed

out, there were just 200 that we know of that were arrested in the last several weeks alone. so that has been the game that fidel castro plays. he lets people in and out but always a cloud hanging over this type of dictatorship. if i could talk about one more issue. i have been working a leader in the area of combatting preemmium trafficking. i'm the primary leader of dictatorship in 2000. the state department has trafficking created by law, and they put an annual listing of countries using what we contained in the law called minimum standards. the worst designation in tier 3. cuba, again, is a tier 3 country. an egregious violator of trafficking with full complicity

of the castro brothers and the rest of that government making money hand over fist by forcible prostitution and by child prostitution. i was, in 2004, frank calzone had documentation and was working the human rights commission in geneva. he had documentation of the complicity of this dictatorship with child prostitution and child exploitation and he was knocked out cold hit in the face by cuban so-called diplomats, thugs. freedom house came to his defense and made a very strong statement against it because he was bearing witness to that ugly truth of child prostitution. and again the state department chronicles this. cuban citizens have been subject to forced prostitution outside of cuba as well. and then child prostitution and child sexualism continues.

in the hotels that were mentioned by mr. clausen and other places, rented children, that is what this barbaric regime is all about. they make money by child sex tourism. again, it's not an open society. i would love for investigators to be able to go there and, of course, bring charges against those, including higher-ups in the government. tier 3 country. i'd like to ask any of our witnesses if they would like to speak to the despicable record of cuba when it comes to the modern day slave trade.

>> translator: it is very important for you to know that the cuban government promotes child prostitution in cuba. the cuban government knows that there are many youths who don't go to school who are on the streets looking for ways to make money to feed their families. it is shameful to say but i must say just last week there was a group of young women saying they were organizing themselves and preserveing themselves for when american tourism arrived so they could sell themselves to american

tourists. if we call the prostitution of hundreds of cuban youths empowerment, if we call cubans who are going to try to steal and take from their places of work in order to feed their families, if we call this empowerment, if we call empowerment like the ladies wearing white go to the streets and are beaten, if we call this empowerment, if we call

empowerment the castro regime fills the streets with those who are poorly trained the children of activists are failing in their tests and they're damaged or harmed in their studies because their parents are involved in the human rights activity. this is not what we want for cuba. the cuban government is trying to build a chinese model in cuba. the cuban government is looking for [ inaudible ] the cuban government needs oxygen and needs air. the cuban government wants a capitalistic economic system and

a commonest political system. we can't tolerate this after over half a century. human rights first economy second. the cuban people are suffering hungry not because of the american government. the cuban people are hungry because the communist system doesn't work. we don't want a succession in cuba. we don't want a continuation of the regime. we don't want a dynasty in power. we want free elections. the resources that are for the people of cuba the resources

that are meant for the cuban people are all castro will take to strengthen the apparatus. >> thank you so much mr. smith. thank you for calling this important hearing. thank you to our witnesses who are victims of the castro regime for being here today. antunis, berta, i'm humbled to be in your presence. some of you live in cuba others are here now but have family in cuba, so i know you are very brave for being here today. this is sort of an insurance policy that you have offered them, mr. smith, because by being here today perhaps they will have some degree of protection that those other

figures, as brave as you are, won't have. so i know you worry about them. thank you for holding up their photos. thank you for describing the current dismal human rights situation in my native homeland of cuba. and i wanted to just give this statement and then ask you some questions. how has the regime's treatment of its critics changed since december 17th? do you think this announcement will force changes? i'll ask you to respond in a minute. how does the regime manipulate the press here in the united states and elsewhere and visitors and tourists on the island that may come back here with a distorted picture of what's going on? this morning i did a radio interview, and the reporter

says, i know cuba. i was there for a week. antunia and berta you heard that castro is a picture of equality, that the regime supports everyone's rights, including the support of african cubans. thank you for pointing out the kind of apartheid government that exists there, especially the medical apartheid and the prison apartheid. thank you for pointing out the mistreatment of the afro-cubans. and mr. thale you testified that the picture in cuba is not a uniformly grim one. the fact that you essentially say, hey, look it could be worse worse. i suppose so. it can always be worse. and it's particularly disgusting and it's an affront to the panelists who sit beside you and the countless number of

people who have been jailed for expressing their god-given and fundamental human rights. to thousands who have died trying desperately to flee cuba. this is such a workers' paradise where the situation is not that bad that i have people -- i see people in my district. they wash ashore, trying to flee castro's cuba even now as all of these negotiations have taken place, 40% increase in the number of cubans fleeing this situation that is not that bad. people who live in constant fear because the regime is watching them closely or the millions more who have managed to flee over the years you're repeating the castro propaganda about good public health care. these are the constituents that i represent now. they fled cuba.

you should come to miami and meet with my constituents and have them tell you about this great medical care. i've seen it in the michael moore documentary, sicko. where does that exist? where is that medical care for these folks? i know that if you're a tourist you will certainly be treated well. it's good propaganda. public education, advancement of lgbt rights. the real truth is that the good medical care is just a show for the castro regime reserved only for the regime officials and the tourists. i know because i represent that community. my district is overwhelmingly cuban americans. i don't know how i got elected. it's just a fluke i guess. but these are the folks who vote for me and vote for mario and vote for carlos rubello, vote for marco rubio, vote for

menendez and cerez. but we know the medical care for the vast majority of cubans, they have noack assess access to medical care. they should be thrown in jail for exposing the truth about abortions, being committed and the poor hospital conditions. and mr. smith has brought that out time and time again. life expectant rates in cuba? where do we get that from? you're doing a survey in cuba, they're manipulated by the regime. it's unbelievable we follow this and you've fall sbun theen into the trap, mr. thale, that they're willing to spread the regime, give it legitimacy. they're utter falsehoods and

repeat it over and over again to the detriment of the truth, the public and the cuban people. it's such a great system, the public education system. as these witnesses have pointed out, it's a public indoctrination program. have you seen the textbooks? meant to stymie free thinking and free will. i have met with prominent lgbt advocates and they have vigorously dismissed the claims of progress on lgbt. they've condemned the continued denial of human rights for everyone. the castro regime will protect lgbt rights if you agree with the castro regime. they will protect anyone who agrees with the castro regime. but be an lgbt individual in cuba and speak out against the regime. see how far that gets you.

so my first question to you, mr. thale, is can you honestly look your co-panelists in the eye and tell them that the picture in cuba isn't a particularly grim one? it's not that bad. and that the torture, the beatings, the imprisonment, the harassment they have had to endure isn't particularly grim. your 17 years in prison not particularly grim. not that bad. the beatings, including 13 who were detained on sunday, but the press doesn't cover that anymore because they want to have their bureau in havana. and you talk about how the engagement has led to the release of political prisoners. you point to this false list of 53 as part of the december 17th announcement. but what happens the next day when we're not looking, when people aren't looking for cuba, when the press has done their stand-ups and they've got their bureau. they don't want to lose that

bureau, oh no. how many more of these dissidents are rearrested? how many more are detained? how many of the 53 have been released prior to the agreement or are you under the fallacy that that 53 list is authentic? haven't some of them been rearrested? and what about those other ones who never made it to the list? why 53? there were 9,000 imprisoned last year according to reports. and how about those individuals that mr. antunis held up? what's happened to them? the mode usus operandi is to release some in expediency, release the propaganda and then when the heat is off, throw some of them in jail. but now they don't even have to wait until the press attention it out. just on monday a young rapper was put in jail for a year for

dangerousness which could lead crime. how can you justify that? how can you say oh we've liberated these 53 and it's not that bad? i want to ask you to our panelists here. mr. antunis, has it not been that bad for you? you were in jail. not that bad. not that grim. >> translator: i think the situation with the violation of human rights in cuba is much worse than we can describe. it's been written about, some documentaries have been made. but none of them capture the

full reality. they can't capture the brutal reality of imprisonment in cuba. maybe those who don't have a very good idea or don't have all the information about what a cuban prison is like could come to think that a prisoner in cuba is merely deprived of their freedom. they could ignore the persons who are tortured with water and told they are injected with some kind of poison. there have been cells in prisons where murders and beatings have taken place. there have been clinically

induced suicides which have taken place in cuban prisons. i will never forget samuel simpson gonzalez, when he was manipulated by the prison authorities to jump off a third story rooftop. i will never forget the use of shakira, a device for torture in cuba. i don't want to consume too much of your time telling you about all the horrors of the prisons because i have so many examples of torture that we wouldn't have enough time for me to go over all of them. you asked me how to describe political imprisonment in cuba. i would ask you to ask duarte

and find it in his great work. you can't talk about process of engagement of dialogue of understanding if you ignore something as important, as crucial, as essential as political prisoners. we often talk about the embargo. and we mention it in different forms. eloquent voices talk against the embargo. one of the members of the congress who is not present right now blames the embargo for not being able to go to cuba. but it should be mentioned perhaps they should mention that the only real embargo the only

real duarte that the cubans face is the cruel criminal castro regime that does not limit itself, and on a weekly basis beats women on the streets. a regime who murdered in the hospital a courageous woman. or who murdered a man by not letting him drink water for 18 days. yeah, there will be changes. there will be improvements. but not for the people. it will be for that regime that has imprisoned so many humans, that has repressed cubans and

that is frankly carrying the lead in these negotiations, or taking the lead in these negotiations. those of us who are sitting here are not extremists. we are not backward-looking people. we're not against policies of engagement i understand that. and we think the best way to solve a conflict is by raproachment. but what we can't accept is that you confuse cuba with the regime. what we will not accept and we have no reason to accept is that the cuban opposition be ignored

in these negotiations. the castro regime has found in barack obama's engagement policy part of the incentives it needs in order to continue repressing. and in order to maintain itself in power so as to legitimize itself, the cuban resistance is not recognized via the courts. and we do not come from more authority or separate authority no matter how powerful they may be. we are appreciative of international solidarity and we accept it. we respect those who think that

president obama's policies will benefit cuba. but all that we ask, please, is that you recognize us and that you take this into account. >> berta? >> translator: it is very important for you to know the cuban government -- it is very important for you to know that the cuban government uses state tourism against defenseless women. the cuban government is not a sovereign government. the cuban government has not been elected therefore, we cubans are the sovereignty of cuba. we have the right to express our

opinion. it is very important that you know we have no problem with the governments of the united states. because they have always tried to support the people of cuba. what we are against is the way in which these negotiations are being conducted. because we are the sovereignty of the people of cuba. the list of political prisoners who are going to be released was another deceit of the cuban government. 14 prisoners had already been

released. but these 14 were not free men like those three spies that president obama unconditionally handed over to the castro regime. these political prisoners that were released by the castro regime had been released on parole. you must take this into account. we can help in how the u.s. government deals with the cuban government. you can't do business with criminals, and if you do, you must have conditions.

you can see how castro himself are already setting conditions. what are the conditions we're demanding from the federal government? how can it be possible that so much violence is exerted against women simply because they're trying to practice their religious freedom? how can it be possible that you're basically walking on a sidewalk in your country and the regime hurls pro-government

thugs, pro-military thugs against you? how can it be possible that the police take us to faraway parts of the city and that they fracture our wrists with their pistol butts? it is a suffering people. it is a people that needs freedom. freedom depends on us cubans. but we need the support -- we need the material and spiritual support of other governments. i'm going to go further back. in 1980 100,000 cubans left

cuba. teachers, engineers, physicians. castro called them scum and said they were leaving due to economic reasons. >> with that i'm going to interrupt you for a second because i know you have a flight to catch. i just want to say something before you leave. this is the news of today. dissidents arrested for protests near cuban national assembly this morning. so much has changed. a group of 12 dissidents were arrested as they tried to stage a protest near the havana headquarters of the cuban regime's national assembly. the dissidents part of the civil resistance front took out a sign demanding the elimination of castro's draconian laws that

ever wonderful social danger dangerousness. their whereabouts remain unknown. in stark contrast this region says both leaders of this group are freely and openly testifying before the u.s. house of representatives in washington, d.c. this morning. what a contrast. berta, you've got to hop on a plane. and i know that you will be marching with the ladies in white on sunday. we will pray for you we will pray for all of the people of cuba. you make us proud, you make freedom and liberty shine. [ foreign language ]

>> translator: -- >> [ foreign language ] >> thank you. thank you so much. move your butt to the airport. they wouldn't hold that plane. only in castro's cuba will they hold it. [ foreign language ] >> sarah, and then i don't know if mr. hill can speak as well. sarah sarah? >> translator: if you would allow me, i would like to speak about the private sector in cuba. there is no private sector in

cuba. where there is no freedom to negotiate negotiate, the so-called self are entrepreneurs who are a very tiny minority. they are constantly blackmailed and manipulated by the regime. they must respond to the interests of the regime in order to keep their businesses running. they can't have their own unions. they can't defend their rights. that's why i insist, no type of commerce with cuba benefits the people.

whoever enters cuba remains in the hands of the regime. whatever money enters cuba remains in the hands of the regime. i also want to say i feel a deep sadness every time i think of political prisoners. it is very hard in the 21st century that in the 21st century that are still people in my country who are imprisoned for their ideas. that there are so many marginal marginalized people who can't even finish their studies because of their ideas. it's not only this. many youth who are not directly

involved in activity also suffer from persecution and also suffer from discrimination because they are the children of opposition. it is a crime that youth cannot pursue their studies. and that they desperately seek in prostitution a means of which to maintain their families. we condemn the castro regime. we demand that there be no impunity for the regime. we want a free just and democratic country. >> thank you so much. mr. chairman i regret that i have a plane to catch as well.

i did not give mr. thale a chance to respond. i don't know if you'll be able to and i'll hear it on cnn radio, i mean cspan radio. thank you very much. i'm on berta's flight i just remembered. it's not going to wait for me either. >> only briefly thank you. thank you for the series of questions and comments. without wanting to enter into a whole debate about how you characterize the human rights situation in cuba i think it's clear no one denies that there are serious human rights problems on the island. the question is how to address them and what the united states government can do. and i think the policy of engagement that was announced on the 17th the policies that have been sbiptd othersupported by others in the dissident community, that's supported by the catholic church in cuba, supported by the u.s. catholic conference that was endorsed by the pope the number

of republicans as well as democrats in this congress have endorsed, the freedom house has endorsed. i think the message is there is a very strong view that the best way to address the human rights situation in cuba. >> i would respectfully disagree with mr. thale. i thank you for your candor. we've tried that before. it seems to me it's not about isolation, it's about meaningful engagement where steps that we take are predicated on just observing universally recognized human rights. we're only asking the declaration of human rights the treaties that have been enacted, for lack of a better word, with concurrence in full, all in by the countries of the world, be followed. and certainly the convention against torture which has been

violated with impunity by castro is one of the most egregious violations. torturing people is one of the most heinous acts one human being can commit against another. i would just, very quickly mr. thale, have you ever asked to meet with a political prisoner in prison? no? i hope you would. i think -- you know, i think -- i have made it my business 35 years as a member of congress to meet with dissidents everywhere and anywhere i go where there is a repressive regime, but i always seek to go to the prisons to try to show some solidarity some empathy with those who are suffering the daily acts of torture and brutal mistreatment that mr. brunes articulated. the book that got me into fighting for religious freedom, frankly, in 1981 was "toured byurbidorture"tortured

by christ" where torture is commonplace. and in the book i mentioned earlier, he talked about theedsse tortures that just never ended. he talked about poles that would be jabbed in. there was no sleep. talk about sleep deprivation, just no sleep. you never knew when you would get a shot in the nose or the groin area. as the guards shifted from one shift to another, they would use these ho chi minh poles. they were designed by sadists to extract the worst possible pain on women and men. and then of course the sexual abuses that are visited upon people as well. dr. bassett talked about how they punched his teeth you

know major, major problems just beatings, beatings and more beatings. i honestly believe castro and those who have committed these atrocities ought to be held to account by the world for crimes against humanity rather than invited in as partners. yes, you've got to deal with dictators as a kept as do many others. but to have human rights as an issue, maybe an issue, not the issue is a serious mistake. and again the embargo i would just say for the record, and perhaps some of our witnesses want to speak to this, there has been robust trade with the european union, canada and other countries of the world with cuba for decades. and there has been no diminution whatsoever in torture child sex

trafficking. if anything the trade has facilitated, particularly with convicted pedophiles and others who travel the world to abuse little children, to rent a boy or a girl when they go to cuba. i just had passed on the floor of the house of representatives for the third time the international megan's law so that convicted pedophiles that we will know this country as a destination when they are leaving to go on sex tourism trips, how horrific is it that the government of cuba actually benefits financially from that? and if that's not accurate then allow a full-scale investigation, because we have so many stories and so much information, and again, i have to say this, and i will put major parts of this in the record. the trafficking protection act has been established and will be called a tip report.

it comes out every year. and cuba again, has been designated an egregious violator, a tier 3 country when it comes to modern day slavery. so the idea of trade, and somehow there will be a ma trickk matriculation, a democracy has not worked in vietnam. it did not work in china. tei ping is in a love affair. he is taking that country down the road of torture as more trade occurs with the republic of china. many of our businesses are learning if you don't respect human rights intellectual property rights and the like are another casualty of a dictatorship. and when people talk about the internet being open, i'm the one that held the hearings right in this room several times but one truly historic one with google yahoo and microsoft and cisco --

yes, it was in china. swore them all in and they were part of a censorship. we know the castro regime has great capabilities as do shanko and bela ruse and the internet and everything else will be closely surveilled so that the best and brightest of cuba are found and apprehended asknd thrown in jail. china has literally written the book on how a dictatorship can control the internet with the great firewall of china, and we have a situation that will replicate itself big time there. finally, i would just say this testimony from these unbelievably brave women and men who have suffered at the hands of castro helps tear off the veil of secrecy an open secret, if you will. it's been open, if you will

through cspan and congressmen who will see this record, you are bearing truth and bearing witness to a very ugly reality that is pervasive. again, i do believe that the legitimacy that castro craves and i believe just got a helping hand, that's just my view. the "washington post" and others that already opined on that in their editorials, this was not the time to take that view. there should have been an effort to say human rights first. as you said, mr. artunis, then economic issues and other kinds of engagements. but as we've seen, i've seen one statement after another come out of havana from high government officials that nothing is going to change. and if anything, with the rearrests of at least five, maybe more of the 53, and others who have been rounded up, which is the game that this man plays or this regime plays in cuba

just shows that they're intent on doubling down and making it even worse for the dissidents. so thank you for, again bearing witness to the truth and for exposing these crimes against humanity. if you'd like to make any final comment, mr. thale, starting with you. >> briefly. only to say congressman smith i have the deepest respect to your commitment to human rights and particularly your focus on human trafficking issues. obviously we differ on what is the best way to move forward in cuba. i'm happy to continue that discussion. the only thing i would say on the human trafficking issue is that if you look at the u.n. human trafficking reports on cuba, they are different than our tier 3 listing. they're different because cubans in the united states, cubans refuse to tell us about this issue. i believe that's changing and there's been some discussion with the tip units. >> the problem has been with some u.n. bureaucracies.

i remember i held a hearing in this room on elian gonzalez. and reverend walker came and presented testimony and was waxing eloquent about how the child mortality rate is so low. and i had read the reports that came out of certain u.n. agencies that suggested that was so. and i asked him, because i know, one, as some of our witnesses have said earlier trusting government officials to tender honest numbers you know if you believe that, i'll sell you the brooklyn bridge. there is no reliability, there is no independent confirmation there are no cross checks checks and balances, whatsoever. i also pointed out that dr. bassett, an obgyn an african cuban, a great man who has suffered on his views of belief of human rights, he exposed policies in cuba where children who have disabilities are

routinely killed through coercive abortion. sure some of these kids never make it to birth because they have been killed by the state. that is another crime against humanity. it was called that at the norberg crimes tribunal for what the nazis did. it is no less criminal today. so those numbers are very very unreliable about child mortality and the like. as ileana mentioned earlier, there is so much showcasing going on but the ability to discern the real facts when others bear witness that that's not the face is very large. miss fonseca? >> translator: yes i have something to say.

i remember that in 1990 i don't have a precise amount -- i my youngest son was born prematurely. and where he was born, i saw several children die. however, however, i know that the hospital never reported those deaths and it was not known nationally or internationally. i didn't like to listen to fedle castro's speeches but sometimes i had to.

because when he tell what the enemy says, and fidel castro is the enemy. and fidel castro is the enemy of cuba. i listened to the dictator's speech that year. he said -- he said that i don't know what the statistic was, but he referred to the child mortality rate in cuba being very low. but haven't had the difficult situation with my son, i had been in two hospitals. and i can assure you that many more children have died. but also -- i never received adequate medical assistance.

in order to help me in child birth. in cuba, medicine and education are only good for those who are part of the regime or who sympathize with the regime. that is my testimony with regards to the child mortality rate in cuba. and as to what kind of treatment a cuban who descends from the regime receives in schools and hospitals. >> si. >> translator: i want to clearly establish something before we finish today. maybe it hasn't been well understood. or maybe it's the regime's

ability to skew false statistics sometimes confuses people. in spite of the fact that there are some who do support obama's policies, in what i'm referring to are the negotiations. i can tell you that it's the minority of dissidents. i assure you that the majority of dissident leaders in cuba of opposition leaders in cuba oppose and an example of this is the form for rights and freedoms. as well as the agreement for democracy in cuba. both these are initiatives, have been signed -- have been signed by the most important leaders of the cuban resistance.

there is one last thing which i also want to tell you because i know this is part of the permanent congressional record. something that has worried me ever since i first heard it. because i know that the victims don't have a possibility of speaking here. i ask those who are seeing me and those who are listening to me all those who are well intentioned are listening to me i ask you to closely follow -- to follow the repressive situation in cuba right now. i want to call attention to cuban national assistance front

which consists of different organizations of being repressed. who right not yesterday or not the day before yesterday but right now are being repressed because they are demanding freedom and democracy. finally, the struggle for cuban freedom has caused a lot of pain, a lot of blood, a lot of death, a lot of prisoners, and that's why we can't allow that -- by raul castro can result in an understanding with the u.s. government that may contribute to oxygen being provided and therefore to the continuity. i assure you -- i assure you

that the performance and regime of power i assure you that neocastroism can be worse, i assure you that neocastroism can be worse than all these years we suffered. i want to thank you for this opportunity and especially chairman smith. and the cuban resistance in spite of this agreement, which we consider to be immoral,. in spite of the imprisonment, in spite of the cuban resistance will continue its struggle. we're not going to -- to surrender our country to anyone. because we are convinced that

the principles and the destiny of a country should not be decided on a negotiating table. the destiny and the freedom of a country should not be decide the at a negotiating table where the people have been excluded from. i thank you, u.s. congress, i thank those in cuba who are listening to us. and i'll return to cuba for this experience. i return to cuba for this experience much more convinced of the path that we have taken. and i reiterate what is my slogan. i will not leave and i will not be quiet. long live cuba. >> thank you so much for thar that eloquence. thank you all for your testimonies and leadership. the hearing is adjourned.

and a couple of live programs to tell you about this morning. one starts in just a few minutes over on c-span. a hearing on vaccine preventable diseases. coming in the wake of measles cases recently reported in the country, a number of medical professionals testifying before the senate health committee, and you can comment through facebook and twitter. at 12:45 p.m. live on c-span2 the wilson center will host lisa monaco, the white house homeland security and counterterrorism adviser. she'll talk about cybersecurity and the administration's strategy for addressing cyber threats and attacks. here's more on that now with a reporter from this morning's "washington journal." we'll show you as much as we can

as we wait for a senate finance committee hearing to get under way. >> on the phone is tim starks, he's the 5x5 staff writer for roll call, covers intelligence issues. tim starks, what do we mean when we say going on the offense when it comes to cybersecurity and cyber attacks? >> it's a very good question. the line between offense and defense on cybersecurity is very narrow. obviously, you know, defending your networks includes making sure that it's harder for people to intrude on them. but, there are people who say part of the defense is offense. you need to make it so that if someone goes -- attacks your networks you can attack them back. it's a deterrent, if you will. so, there's really no question that the united states has conducted cyber offense. nsa would say in the name of cyber defense. you know, you look at the attack

on north korea, probably, as an example of that. after the sony break-in. but it is difficult to define what cyber offense is. >> and under what scenario would the u.s. engage in this? >> so you know, the defense department has asserted its right to basically go on cyber offense when trying to defend the nation, our allies and interests. that's, you know, an official defense department report from late 2011, for instance. that would be one area where they would go on offense in the name of defense. >> and what countries have demonstrated that they're a threat in this arena? >> so you know you have to start with the united states. but as far as the