>> she possibly was reflecting. that is a good one, jim. you know, she was concerned about all of her children's marriages, and she did lots of meddling, and she did lots of meddling, and it is to her credit that she meddled, because she was trying to protect them and she was looking for ways to ensure that they would have good lives. she knew very well that who you married was her destiny, and how your life would unfold, and happiness in life very much depended on what marriage would be like. nevertheless, she was always

promoting it, so she was always on the lookout for a match for thomas, yes, and he donald in philadelphia for a while, and she was saying, are there single women in philadelphia? she did that also for the other children as well. particularly, with thomas, and eventually he did come back and mary very well -- marry very well. you mentioned thomas and the letters, and i have been reading the letters now very closely and my impression of thomas has changed so much, the youngest son. first of all, there is a lot of that press with her relation with her sons generally. and how thomas's life turned out, thomas was ill a lot of the time, and she identified with that. she said he had inherited the family disease, rheumatism, and

he was apparently very ill a lot of the time. she sent him incredible formulae for medical treatments. how they live with medicines how anyone survived with the kind of therapies that they suggested, bleeding and purgative's, and on and on -- purgatives, and on and on. and thomas was very ill and she cared about him a lot, and he was very happy with nancy, i believe. does that answer your question jim? was that more than you asked? yeah? >> how did john handle those last eight years, was he miserable, was he sick, was he well? >> john continued to live an interesting life, and he was very frail, he was probably blind and deaf, and he had many, many relatives all of the time who lives around him and many friends, and he was care for -- cared for by the woman who was abigail's niece who had lived with them for their entire life

and she became a housekeeper and so forth. i presume lonely, always, but he interested himself in the world, he carried on this incredible correspondence with thomas jefferson, benjamin rush, and the old founders began a correspondence about what it was like, and they said, no one will ever know what it was like, and once we are gone, they will never understand what it was like. and they were right, we don't, we're struggling on what it was about and what it was like. you know, it was a good old age. with disease and all of the frailties that come along with aging, and he did it magnificently, and to the very end, he was going to boston, he was a celebrity, he was a very famous man, people came to him and he went to boston. he was invited to the constitution of massachusetts, which was being rewritten, and he was put on the commission to rewrite it but he could not do it, he was not well enough anyway it was a good last eight years, given the constraints. >> you mentioned the puritan church a number of times, and i was just wondering, how much of a role did her faith play and center her development?

>> central, absolutely central. abigail was a very religious woman, and religion played just an immensely important part in her life. intellectually, she knew the bible, she knew it well, she was the daughter of a minister, and she quotes it all the time, and one imagine that she just spoke extemporaneously quoting from the bible and understood it. but her belief system was a very, very deep, and it sustained her absolutely particularly through the deaths of her children, she lived through the deaths of two of her children, charles and abby. religion was of great solace to her. [applause] >> you made a glancing reference to her closeness to her family and circle of friends, could you comment on how her relationship with her two sisters was central throughout her life? >> well, it was, she was very close to her two sisters, she

was probably closer to mary and spent more time with mary, they had shared a room together as girls and live together, and then mary was two years older than she. and she was i think six years older than elizabeth, her younger sister. she and mary were particularly close, but she trusted her sisters, they were her best friends, they were the people whom she trusted more on this planet, other than john, and whom she shared background and experiences. when she was concerned during the war, the revolutionary war about how to educate the children she had at home, she decided she would send them to elizabeth, whose husband was running a private school. when john quincy's children live with her in the later years, she sent them to marry to be educated -- to mary to be educated. the letters that someone was talking about that came later during the presidential years

with mary, especially, are very revealing about their intimate lives. they could talk to each other. i called my chapter in "portia" the three-fold cord, and that was the price that abigail paid to her sisters and to herself. thank you. [applause] >> thank you. thank you again to the first church for letting us hold this symposium here, take you to our amazing speakers, and thank you to you all for coming. thank you very much. [applause] >> every sunday at 8:00 p.m. and midnight eastern, you can learn from leading historians about the presidents and the first lady's, their policies, and their legacies, here on "the presidency." to check on her schedule, visit c-span.org/history. >> you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook at c-span history. >> up next on "american history

tv," the correspondence between john and abigail adams and the correspondence between john quincy adams and his wife louisa adams. john adams and his son were some of the first to serve as terms of presidencies of the united states. the 45 minute program was cohosted by the massachusetts historical society and the abigail adams historical society. >> i will start by inter-and -- by introducing our first

[applause] >> american history tv. on the night of april 14, 1865, abraham lincoln was more early wounded at fort's theater as he sat in the presidential box with his life, watching a popular comedy, "our american cousin." he died the next morning. we sat down with way right and an actor to talk about "the widow lincoln." here on c-span three's american history tv. each week, american history tv's

railamerica brings you archival films that tell the stories of 20th century. ♪ ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] ♪ ♪ >> these are the proud hills of virginia springtime. not an easy thing because, after all, a calf is a youngster, like himself. ♪ ride him? sure.

what is a day without a little rough and tumble? when a boy needs comfort, there is always home and mother and father. this is the world of randy of virginia. typical except for one thing. randy was the first child to receive an injection of polio vaccine in 1954. much had preceded this moment when randy made history. in the all-out fight against polio led by the national foundation for him to -- infantile paralysis, there were many years of heartbreak. parents lived in fear of polio's sudden attack and the tragic aftermath. thousands upon thousands of children and adults felt ray. needed best are -- desperately

by patients, needed by an army of scientists who searched. in 1954, a vaccine to prevent polio finally, safe and effective. a huge task, a complex process all detailed in this book, officially called a protocol. here, and the manufacturer records every step in the production of one lot of vaccine. the first requirement trained scientists and technicians. equipment they use gets a scrub up as well. a steam bath for 15 minutes.

ready for the -- when it comes out, it is completely sterilized, ready for the job ahead. vital to the production of the vaccine are monkeys from the far east. given the best of care. another basic ingredient of the polio vaccine is being prepared. a rich, nourishing liquid called medium 199. 68 different elements going to medium 199. each is carefully checked, weight, and combined according to the formula. when all is thoroughly blended the medium is tested for absolute sterility. why this elaborate preparation? into medium 199 will go monkey kidney tissue, carefully minced by hand. in these bottles, the m onkey tissue grows, getting nourishment from medium 199. for days the tissue grows. then because all the nourishment in the medium is exhausted, half is siphoned off to be replaced by fresh medium but with a difference. the differences here, for the first time, live poliovirus is planted in the medium. three strains of the virus are added. completed vaccine will protect against all three types of paralytic polio. once more, the bottles rock. in four days, the virus multiplies 250 to 1000 times. another stage in the complex

production of vaccine has been reached. the polio virus solution is ready for harvesting. the endless testing has now begun. a test measures the amount of live virus present in the solution. this test is made seven different times during production. next, filtration. a vitally important process. the virus solution goes through these metal tubes containing poor school -- containing porcelain filters, then through sheets of us vestas to strain out kidney tissue and remove stray bacteria. more tests.

rabbits are not related to make sure no b virus, a dangerous but non-poliovirus, is in the solution. guinea pigs too receive injections to make certain the solutions are free of tuberculosis. finally, the climax of production. in activation. the power of the poliovirus to infect man will be utterly destroyed. the colorless, pungent chemical formaldehyde will deal the deadly blow to the poliovirus. 466 hours in a warm incubator room, the in activation process

continues. what remains can only do good. provide humans from protection from paralytic polio. a chapter ends. the enemy of man is now ready to become his servant. at every step of the way, checks and double checks. this technician is working on a tissue culture safety test double checking the complete inactivation of the virus. four tests are conducted on

every batch of vaccine. behind the store, the final phase of production. it calls for a giant tank, into which go the three different types of inactivated polio solution, combined for the first time. the solutions are filtered into the polling tank and twice later. additional chemicals complete and preserve the vaccine. then the preparation is mixed for five hours. at the end of that time, the polio vaccine is complete. testing is not.

two animal tests are performed. one on white mice injected with vaccine is called the lcm test. and the live monkey potency test. monkeys receive polio vaccine, then are observed and examined to make sure the vaccine is potent enough to cause formation of polio-fighting antibodies in humans. more tests. a sterility test. the sixth of its kind is perform . it takes time and infinite care. only vaccine found completely free of factory is approved for the next step. that step is putting vaccine into bottles under completely sterile conditions. these are the bottles which finally will find their way into doctors offices and clinics all

over the country, even as they reach the end of the production line. other tests are in progress and tests are sent to the government. no vaccine can leave the pharmaceutical house until all tests by the manufacturer and government are completed satisfactorily. the protocol is finished and then sent to the national institutes of health for government approval, required by law. in bethesda, maryland, the national institutes of health is a vast center of medical progress. in the office of dr. roderick murray, chief of the division of

biologic standards, the manufacturer is first reviewed. that he sums to scientists from his staff. each is given a copy of the protocol, which he will study carefully, checking every process, every test for consistency. at the same time, another vital judgment is being made in the laboratories. a sample from every batch of vaccine is received. then subjected to a whole battery of complex scientific tests. a sterility test confirming those of the manufacturer is carried out. a tissue culture test on the vaccine sample.

substantiating tests already made by the manufacturer. living tissue is inoculated with the polio vaccine, incubated and carefully examined. the monkey test, one of the most important tests. 20 monkeys are involved in the testing of every lot of vaccine and each receives three injections from the manufacturer wash sample. the purpose is to confirm the safety and effectiveness of the polio vaccine. these are just the painstaking review and testing procedures of the national institutes of health. it's contributing to the final judgment and recommendation on every lot and vaccine. once the public health service authorizes its release, the polio vaccine can begin to protect american youngsters. in 1955, over 10 million children receive one or more

injections of salk vaccine including this boy, the president's own grandson, david eisenhower. like millions of boys and girls across the nation, david is protected against paralytic polio, free to play and enjoy the delights of summertime with the president, his grandfather. from the united states public health service, a report on these vaccinations in 1985 by the distinguished former surgeon general dr. leonard a shealy. >> as we enter the second year of widespread polio vaccine, it is my pleasure to report to you the results of polio vaccinations today. we had a good opportunity to study effectiveness last year. here's a very simple chart which indicates how the vaccine works during 1955. this is based on reports from 22 states. among vaccinated children, the attack rate for polio was only 6.3 over 1000. the unvaccinated rate was 29.2 per 100,000. almost four times as high. the studies involved about 8.5 million children whose ages ranged from 5-11.

even though these children had one injection instead of three the vaccine was found to be 70% effective. put another way, the boys and girls received at least one injection of vaccine at four times as much protection as those without it. we can all be proud of the salk vaccine. we can all share in this victory. it will lead to many more in the years ahead. >> for maximum protection for paralytic polio, three inoculations. the second given no more than three weeks after the first. the third, no more than seven months later. everyone in your community should be vaccinated now. vaccination will saves lives from death or paralysis this

year. help your child grow up strong and straight. free from crippling oil oil -- crippling polio. youngsters like david eisenhower, like polio pioneers randy kerr, are part of a bright new future which will see the unconditional surrender of infantile paralysis. ♪ >> 2014 mark the 25th anniversary of the national museum of the american indian act. the law established the national museum of the american indian as part of the smithsonian institution and encouraged to return any human remains to federally recognized indian tribes. next from a symposium, a panel toss about the intermingling of repatriation. it is about one hour and 15

minutes. >> our final panel today is entitled "bringing the ancestor's home and experiences ." we have got three compelling cases to think about with you. i am fortunate enough to also be able to moderate the session. i will move from here over to their. -- t5here. -- there. you look in your program, you will see he has got quite an illustrious history involved and all kinds of governmental and educational things, honored recognized, and awarded throughout australia for his wonderful work. he will be speaking to us about

a quite interesting and compelling repatriation. a wide range of experiences in business and in government. he also has an interesting case study to put it for us in terms of international auction houses very finally cecil senior, the cultural repatriation specialist for the tribe of indians and has been for the last 15 years. he is heading into a time meant, so we can wish him well with that. for those of us in michigan, a lot of times, we have another acronym with it. they start to sound a little little like. the michigan -- a really important thing in our state in terms of allowing tribes to work together and to coordinate.

he's a founding member and the previous chairperson of that organization. without further ado i will turn things over to you. >> thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. the australian government and french government have organize something very exciting from my point of view from this session. yesterday, to currently give you contests, australia has just concluded hosting the g 20 meeting. that has spun off to three bilateral head of state visits. one by the chinese prisoner, one by an indian prime minister, and one by the french resident. -- presidents. -- french president.

to do something significant in the context of chinese and australian relations, and in the case of the french, the principal deliverable, and agreement on repatriation of indigenous remains between australia and france. given the freshness of this, i thought i would read from the crucial paragraph of the agreement just reached. they establish a joint expert committee. the processes needed to identify and also ascertain the origin of the human remains in french public collections.

the committee for indigenous retoucher nation. includes experts from france and from australia. another point of success. it is absolutely critical for us on so many levels. on what level, in relation. a collection of original australian remains was in the 19th century and exercise actively pursued.

there was a recognition this was a culture and a group that developed largely independently of just about anything else going on globally. they had a continuous history. back in those days, it was regarded as close calculations, a continuous history of 20,000 years. in reality it is now proved, but the assumption is 60. interesting to reflect that when humanity came out in the last ice age, the most advanced culture on earth was the australian indigenous culture. it is hard to think and contemplate that. but that was the case. one of the reasons essentially was, if you look at australia geologically and geographically,

humanity in australia did not take the hits from the ice age that folks in the northern hemisphere did. further south, demonstrated there's no one there at all. so there was a high survival rate amongst the indigenous community in australia and basically, as you can discern there is no break point in the culture that you could identify with the ice age. it is continuous. in the legends, a verbal transmission of information there is no real intersection with what you might describe as any ice age invents. the ice age had her thick effects on the native american population at the time. for australians, pretty much well nothing at all.

so what has been a relatively successful handling at a governmental level of a completely horrible story, they have been sporadic attempts made over the years prior to that point in time, around about 2000. some were successful and many were not. there is a lot of media attention attracted, which in turn had a positive effect on the pressure to create the movement. for the turn of indigenous australian males. the 2007 article late into the operation, actually, the rights of indigenous evil highlighted the need for international cooperation in a challenging

area. with a changing attitude of cultural institutions, academics, and scientists, they created an environment conducive to the sorts of changes now in place area the first of our agreements was between australia and the united kingdom. that was a joint declaration signed in 2000. that was to increase the efforts -- and the first australian government house he, was released in 2004, when the government then committed itself to actively seeking from overseas institutions. i was involved in australian politics for years very you do not know anything about it. [laughter] compared to what we were like we are truly horrific era because we run a system, our

business is control, to a degree. what is really interesting about this, the dates that i am giving you, the dates of conservative administrations in australia it is very important to comprehend that. they are not the -- the political organization most identified or the sympathetic attitude to indigenous australians, but these events occurred and the signing of the agreement with the fresh yesterday, in the time of conservative administration in australia, i was what you would call a social democrat. i had a different persuasion but, this is interesting of the character and development of policy in australia. the government policy identified in 2004 provides financial and diplomatic support.

the communities to work with the institution spared our industry is to negotiate the return of ancestral domains -- remains. the costs include travel by traditional -- to company ancestral remains from australia. an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. it is very difficult to retoucher he ate to -- remains. an advisory committee for repack creation. the members come exclusively indigenous australians.

over 1400 secret, sacred objects from within australian collections area brought home more than 1200 ancestral remains from australia to overseas. it is of course also australia. 1200 from overseas. institutions in the u.k. in the czech republic and germany, as well as the u.s., have returned ancestral remains. with the assistance of the embassy here in d.c., ministry for the arts was directly with cultural as -- institutions in the united states to process repatriations. the 2012 archaeology methodology museum, returning a known elder to the home community, and being held since

the late 19th century. also in 2012 2012, the stanford archaeology center returned. in 2010, the smithsonian national history museum undertook a return of nine ancestral remains. in 2009 and 2010, following a decade of lobbying i communities in the australian government, the institution repatriated the remains by the 1948 scientific expedition. i had a degree of personal involvement from that in the outset. the biggest ever done in australia was done in 1948.

it was organized on the australian side by the australian government. on the american side by national geographic. and the smithsonian. it was an extraordinary exposition -- expedition. a lot of it has to do with the outcome of the second world war, when australia recognized the vulnerability of its northern parts, and it was trying to increase substantially the populations of the north of australia. that was sort of a political sub set of the rationales behind it. it was also the rationale that the truth is you look at the consequence of the european settlement in australia, the areas where there were intense european settlement, there had been total social and cultural destruction. a 750 nations the settlers

initially encountered being recused by the late 1940's to about 250, those 250, you could pretty well identify the substantial extent, where the areas, a large number of them, that this expedition covered. the expedition was extraordinary in the depth of its penetration of all facets of the s knology the geology of the area. about 30,000 new species were discovered during the course of that expedition. the expedition is encountered tribes living essentially as though there had been little impact by the european settlement. you might think that a bit surprising.

in my lifetime in the 1980's, there was a community and for the first time, it was revealed they had seen a white man. 200 years of european settlement before anyone in this community had actually been a european. i had heard rumors about them that they had not seen a european. to cut a long story short agreements were reached. the original folk in the exposition -- expedition had instruction that whatever else they did, not to touch aboriginal remains. they were easy to identify buried in public. they broke. they also did other things. i was associated with a conference being held at the

conclusion of it. i was presenting the political side of what was a sickly a scientific, anthropological conference, 60 years after the event, just before i came here. the interesting thing was the fabulous reels of photographic film and sound, all being put away in the 1950's. it was recognized that unknowingly, we just violated a whole range of cultural sensitivities in the aboriginal community. and that the people being interviewed in the film had no idea of what technologies they have been confronting. a proper discussion about the statements of the men and women talking to, they made a determination dealing with people who were probably seen

elders. that was their view. they felt free to make statements to them and show them artifacts paintings, that were appropriate to an elder of their equivalents. the idea of race, it is area likely inside it there it i will not go further on that, but it is interesting compared to just about any other community on earth, race consciousness is not strong. so they shared this and to their heart, they saw on film. women were seeing things that should never see. on the film. women were involved in seeing things they should never see.

as the impact of that sunk in, there was great concern. we just put it all away. stuff came out in national geographic. a few films and the like. gradually, we let it slide as an embarrassed. then we took it out, on the sixth year anniversary. the groups in the area loved it. there was so many generations removed they did not feel as though they were seeing anything offensive. culturally. but also, estimated by the fact that they do not do things the way their grandparents did. clearly, the ritual had changed their so they thought that was something they could learn from and they were not at all at the level of sensitivity that their great grandparents and their grandparents had been. that was all interesting. but there was leftover business because it was known there was a

group of remains that had been removed. wonderfully, the smithsonian came to the point of view that this had to be addressed. this had to be changed. and so the agreement was reached. the elders came across to preside over it. wonderfully dealt with by the people responsible for this museum and its outreach center. because the native americans understand absolutely the disturbance in the spirit world that is it problem -- a product of mishandling remains. all societies have a consciousness of the significance of it and the danger to the people involved if they find themselves messing with them. to put all this into these bodies into a culturally significant native american site, it is quite a bit of

tolerance from the american -- the native american people. that, again, was wonderful. terrific for the indigenous cultures to be able to reach like that. after an extraordinarily complex that money the remains went home. but it was a lesson to me and all of us how extraordinarily old the removal of the remains has been, culturally psychologically, in the community. it was an excellent lesson for us. i'm glad to see -- there, who was involved with the process and was an interesting example of a success in this project. >> i wonder if you might speak to us a little bit about how things actually play out on the

ground in australia in terms of international repatriation. one of the things one might imagine here is some kind of court meeting office. who knows where it sits, the state department, the department of interior, somewhere, that it actually provides that kind of support and is a little bit beyond our is vision, for example, to do that. can you give us a few hints of what it might look like for us? >> tells it is a federally and officially approved process. that is the first point. it is one that will be adequately resourced because for the movement of things and the movement of people associated, there is funding available. they do not actually have to worry about that. what they have to worry about is protocol. protocols have basically been and it is an extensive protocol attached, about these things can be handled.

community consultation, the search and study to prove up the providence of the remains. the us chilean didn't -- australian indigenous communities are a heavily oriented community. they work through these things carefully. once the location of remains has been identified, and the relevant community activated then they basically handle from that point on how things are done. that is not a fast process there it the indigenous community is very anxious that they should be returned. .2, they are anxious to not be involved in any way, shape, or form, unless they are the appropriate people to do it. it is not as though you have a

situation where you appoint a number of australians of indigenous origins. you'll handle them now, see you. they will not handle the bodies. there is no responsibility for them and it is dangerous for them to handle them. we have to go through an elaborate us -- of -- 80 -- and elaborate process. you may well arrive at the conclusion that they did not. somebody may identify them and found the person or other claim or family. person shall and shall not be offensive about it. if there is any challenge out there. you can actually get a process that takes weeks.

months. to establish who it is to collect them. enough people are looking for free trips globally. they are, quite differently, like the elders who came to australia for the smithsonian exercise amah they could not wait to get home. they wanted familiar ground, to the in country date -- and they did not want to be involved. they say they are aware of one or two things, which, the institutions have been very prepared, anxious that we remove them. but there is not a claim. in some areas of australia, the remains come from tries it had been wiped out. they effectively have no providence and it is not easy if

she who would then accept responsibility. another indigenous tribe simply would not. that is all there is to it. they do not want to mess with the spirit world. so they will say, the protocols are expensive. the process is really completely controlled by did -- indigenous australian and reporting to a funding authority. funding authority is just that. maybe you could say click that about the nature of some of the bilateral agreements? one could imagine one conceptual mostly with the details worked out, or another version that might be very the civic guard earlier today, we heard about testified content -- petrified contamination. something that does not make its way to the fine print. making its way about the

standard of proof, evidence, the unevenness of those kinds of things. these extensive documents? >> the act is pretty expensive. the actual agreement we saw i get has pretty much the agreement with the french. but that is, it is a process with a hard level mr. now the attached to it. maybe you need to go and take a bit of a look at that. i think it would probably be a little different from others there is there had been sacred objects returned.

compared to other societies, and i suspect as is the case with the native american society, objects are not that important. they are there, but they do not have the level they have in some other indigenous community. on the other hand, bodies are unbelievably problematic. so the focus is largely on getting things right with regard to that. then establishing the proper ownership of remembering always that no one wants to do it. the indigenous australians identified as the source of this , they're not going to go out of their way for an overseas trip. going out of country certainly for the still extend indigenous

tribes, it is not a good thing to do. it is not as though people will not accept responsibility. it is interesting. i'm going on too long, but it is interesting seeing them at the other part of this museum. we get there, and the three of us come out. they are quite gentlemen. all of a sudden, everything. there are none of us have any idea why it stops, but these three chaps sit off in the corner and sporadically, they talk to each other. you have got to understand what will she said and then nothing will be said for about a minute. somebody else will say something. about 10 seconds flat, nothing else is set for a few minutes. and so on or about an hour.

what they were doing is sitting down and working out, in which order the languages should be presented and the knowledge that if it is not presented in the right order then there will be no believe -- no validity, age or to those handling the bodies, and the dangers of the communities when they get home. it was an elaborate and difficult process. when i finally arrived -- arrived at an agreement about an hour in, then the ceremony and the remains concluded. it is quite a complex process. number of remains have been moved back to australia and if, for example, there is an assumption that the people with

whom it was connected simply cannot be identified, and there is a high likelihood they no longer exist then the government just fix it up and sent it home and put it in a holding area as far as it can be established in case at some point in time, someone can arrive. >> thank you. return then to the governor. >> good afternoon, everyone. are you still awake? [laughter] tough time to be in front of the audience after lunch, the last group in the states here. thank you for allowing us to present this afternoon. interesting discussion and thank you to all of those who have isn't it. i have learned a lot from each of you as i sat here

and listen to this afternoon. i also want to knowledge david our treasurer who accompanied me on this trip it is up there in the corner as well. as they stand here and share a few today our strength is, i will touch on two items. the return of sacred items at an international level, as well as our view as it relates to the repatriation of human remains and objects. i will share the perspective on that specifically. you hear the young kids talk about things like facebook and blowing up the phone. that is how we got introduced to international repatriation. we were made aware of this

french auction that was to be coming up. i kind of got wind of it, and all the sudden, my phone was like -- and i have a facebook account but i'm normally not on it. my phone was just buzzing like crazy. the challenge that created for us was a very huge, educational, cultural challenge. what i was seeing on facebook pictures of items, that that be initiated into societies. but here it is, smack dab right on facebook. wow. so we have to begin to think about, how do we address this and how do we begin to calm our

community and secondly those pushing it on facebook, to stop doing that. and then to be able to figure out if there is something they will respond to. and so as we sat with traditional leaders, we took a different approach. we saw on internet, cnn, that is it is, this auction and how visible this has been made for us, our direction was your responsibility is to make contact and get those items back . stay as far under the radar as you can. it is not our place to be going and making it visible.

so we start the we start at the process, and one of the challenges for us was the language barrier. we saw that the auction house was very sensitive to wanting to talk to us. threats to life, that somebody was going to kill him -- them, and they were coming from tribal people. my first thought was, that is not how we should be conducting ourselves, tribal or not. to hurt somebody is not right.

fortunately, one of our tribal members, his wife studied french and speaks french pretty well. we actually made contact with the auction house talked to them, told them what our intentions were, and gosh, they were so very willing to help us. they helped us set up everything. we just went straight to the auction, and our directive was to acquire the items back, because that was the process that was in place at the time. we had just a few days to do it. that was the process we used. so, you know, we were able to get the items back. it was a decision of our government and our traditional leaders together.

we are at a point, you know, by going and asking for that help, we are at a point with that auction house where any time that they have an auction, i get e-mails. they also send me the catalogs of all of their auctions, if there is anything related to native american items and i've seen some pretty interesting stuff in there. they are very helpful to us in that regard. the challenges that we ran into were, as we prepared to go to france, we prepared to go to france to get our sacred item back -- i don't know how you would say it other than "item" -- but as we prepared to go, it was interesting because the department of interior here in the united states, the actually

drafted a letter for us saying that there is a government to government relationship between tribes and the united states government. we asked at the state department if they would help us in that same regard so we could have that level of dialogue with the french government. they were not willing to support that. it's interesting. how do you get that level of acknowledgment and understanding for tribes that have that sovereign self-determination and acknowledgment from the federal government at the international level? i think that is going to be one of the next big steps that we are collectively going to have to work on together and be able to get that recognition, whether it's the state department or from the president's office or which a venue or vehicle will allow us to get there.

that is going to be a very important piece that we do need to get in place. the other part of this at the international level is being able to, for us as tribes, to figure out, how do we not blur those lines ourselves? one of the things i mentioned earlier was the catalogs. you see in these catalogs, there are the traditional dowels. for some tribes, they see that as art. for us, i can't speak for all the pueblos but i know the pueblos in new mexico, those dowels are just as sacred. they are not given just for the sake of, here's a dowel but they may the for fertility.

if females are having challenges having children, or does not have any children, to bring the energy of child into the home. those dowels are very sacred. in our world, they are not given just as a piece of art, but you have other tribes that use those as art. so we blur those lines ourselves in some instances. we need to figure out, how do we balance that so that we don't create those contradictions and confrontations for one another? the other piece that i think is very important for repatriation

whether they are objects or human remains there is a spirituality piece that i believe is associated with this. we got notice through facebook and the technology. we got one of those items back. went to france and brought it home. after we did that, lo and behold we became aware of seven more. they are all at least 100-plus years older. we didn't know they were out there. all of a sudden, we have been made aware. that spirituality side, are they now ready to come home themselves? our humanity says, we can

analyze that however we want, but there is a spirituality side. the reason i say that a lot of you -- that a lot of you in your prayers, you use directions in that. wherever it is you stand, those that have passed on -- wherever you stand, bless us and protect us.

keep in mind, as natives, we don't have a concept of graveyards. wherever you rest, rest happy wherever you're at. those things become very, very important when we think about these items of -- whether it's an object or human remains. we have to be very careful about what we mean when we say, let's bring them home. one of the earlier presentations that ms. pipes them talked about, we are not going to just react and say, we are going to give something back or repatriate something. that i think is very key and crucial. as an example for us laguna, we have some very sacred items here. they are part of a medicine society that we have, and i've

had the opportunity to go see those items. in talking with our traditional leaders, they said, leave them there. do not take them home. medicine people take things that are not good, that are not right , so they just leave them there. the challenge that creates is now, who has those things, and who is responsible for them? we talk about the challenge of technology.

as an example, the sky. as our humanity, we send space shuttles up there. we send satellites up there, and then we bring them back. maybe it comes back. that is why we can heal. we keep bringing it back. we have to be very careful. it's not to scare. it's not to create intrigue. it's just, what is it that we need to be mindful of? those are very, very important things, and i think that there are some things that are maybe

not meant to go home. they are meant to be where they are at for whatever reason. the other piece that i want to mention is, there was -- one of the earlier panels talked about museums, the challenge that museums run into as it relates to returning objects, returning items. we don't want them to deteriorate. we have all the infrastructure to preserve them. why should we send them back? well, it reminds me of a story that we were told in our pueblo. at one time, we thought we were more powerful than the creator

that we actually wanted to challenge her, challenge the creator, and as a result of that, we saw consequences. earlier, mr. martinez and i were talking about that panel, and he shared with me a challenge and the part that our humanity overrides is that those processes, when bones deteriorate, when things go back to work -- to the earth, that's natural. that's the process. our humanity is saying, let's interrupt it. let's preserve it. we have to find a point where we can find the opportunity for education.

but allow the process to complete. the breath we breathe, the heart and our chest, that is our mother's authority, not mine. that belongs to our mother. those of the things we talk about when we think about repatriation. we need to think about it not only in our humanity and the technology and the great things we have but the spirituality. what does that mean? not religion. spirituality. lastly technology, i started

talking to you about facebook and my phone blowing up. you know, in our stories, they tell us that one of these days, the people are going to be living like animals. if you look down on an anthill they are going all over the place but they are also going to be -- you see the work and you see the lines as they are carrying crumbs into their whole. people are going to be like that one of these days, living like ants, just going all over the place. you see the electric lines. they say that one of these days

the people in this chaos, they are going to lose touch with who they are, their values, their customs, traditions, but somewhere along the way, they are going to finally realize how precious those things are. the pendulum is going to start back the other way. they also said that during this time the people, their communication is going to minimize with the mouth, but communication is going to be done with electricity. is that this? is that facebook? how do we use that to the positive? how do we use that to educate through culture not about culture, but educate through culture? those are things that i will put out for all of us to think about.

i think those can be great tools for us to use if we can collectively come together and understand how it is we utilize these mechanisms utilize these teachings, utilize our spirituality and humanity, so that repatriation and the understanding of one another's ways continue to be respected continue to be valued, and continue to be perpetuated into the future so that those who are not here yet will be able to see the things that we see. thank you very much. [applause] >> governor, object has his multiple lives. you can imagine an object that has been a spiritual context some sort of relation to power that object turning into an object of collection, and all of

a sudden, it becomes a different kind of object. moved into a museum, it's all of a sudden to find as art. or into an auction house where it is defined as a commodity. one of the questions -- i'm wondering if you can tell a little bit more about the deliberations and the thought you were having around this particular question when an object sits within, say, something like -- it's kind of a moral claim, and the object becomes patrimony as opposed to being a commodity, and then navigating and negotiating those two things feels like kind of a hard problem. i'm just wondering if there are some thoughts you all had about that. >> i think for our pueblo, the

spirituality side really is that wherever the items are we are reminded, you feed every day you offer your prayers when you sit down and eat -- it's very important to continue to remember that the spirit is not an object. it's going to always be there. the item itself, maybe it's spirit has been released. that helps our humanity, our mind be able to feel a little more at ease in those types of conversations,. a wall of patrimony, a wall of repatriation it helps you come to a better element of logic and sense of comfort, as opposed to

just activists with no logic. i think it's real important to be realistic about those kinds of things and what is it that will allow us to get to that end goal. if the object or remains come home being respectful to the process, being consistent to the decisions that are made. >> let me try to ask a different question by drawing a kind of metaphor to american indian law. there was kind of a moment where i would say a lot of american indian lawyers -- i'm not one -- felt like there were opportunities in the courts, but i would say recently, the sense that there are opportunities in the court has been somewhat diminished. there has been, in my sense, a

growing sense of responsibility to the broader american indian legal community about what specific cases might go to which specific courts, in the sense you take a chance on something you lose, president get set, it has consequences for other tribes making other kinds of claims. the parallel i wonder if we could draw is the possibility of creating international law around these kinds of things, going after auction houses that would in fact make objects into commodities and put them on the market, if there is some sort of sense that there might be long-term possibilities in terms of international law where an individual tribe going through the process of benevolent auction house negotiation actually has consequences for bigger possibilities later. i'm wondering if that entered into some of the conversations you are having. >> absolutely. i think after that surfaced, i'm

sure other tribes had the same thoughts and conversations, as well. at the international level, it is something that not just one or two tribes can do. that's why i said earlier, collectively, not only the tribes but resources and organizations like the smithsonian, we have to have people who understand the international law as it relates to these types of arena. i don't think that will ever get -- we are going to have to figure out is it something like a consultation process at the international level or a collaboration process? i'm not a lawyer either. i'm not sure the right words but that would cause and force international, whether it's auction houses or groups or

whoever, to work with the united states and respective tribes on items of repatriation or objects. the danger is, if we set this particular law, and it works well for this tribe, it could be detrimental to the next try. it's more important to think about a collaborative effort that is enforced in some form or fashion. >> could you say a little bit more? i was struck by the sense, on social media, if something surfaces, you go through a process with one or a small number of objects, and all of a sudden, there are seven. what does that do in terms of thinking about -- my assumption is, this is not that easy to do, and we've done it with one. now there are seven more sitting there confronting us. we have the burden of knowledge in a way.

how does that play out? >> may be clarify, the first one was provided to us or brought to us via social media. the others were brought to us through the museums. that was really interesting. i think that as we look at social media and its impact on society today we are communicating with electricity now. how do we use that form of communication as a form of education but also as a form of protection for that innocence? in our tribe, our pueblo, some of those items even those of us who may be initiated into certain societies -- [indiscernible] how do you protect the innocence? >> it is very much like the case you described.

i was also struck by this sense that the auction houses started getting threats, serious threats from tribal people or people who wanted to speak. it also speaks to the other side of social media and the internet. i'm wondering if there were other conversations around that or other things that appeared. as you say, it doesn't seem like the very first thing that would happen if someone from laguna is going to send a death threat to a french auction house. >> fortunately, none of those threats were from laguna, as far as i know. [laughter] our approach has never been to be reactive. be proper, and be diligent in the decisions you make and the approaches that you take. when we actually went to france, we had a whole box full of

letters. he showed us a couple. they weren't very pleasant letters. i think for us as tribal people, we need to make sure that we are not contradictory to the things we are trying to represent and the things that we desire. she recalled a couple years back -- if you recall a couple years back, we saw on the national news opposition to abortion clinics. the guy that was in opposition to abortion clinics, he goes and shoots a doctor, and he's pro-life. it made no sense. it's those kinds of things that we want to make sure we don't find ourselves in contradiction and being able to continue to perpetuate the goodness of the

objects, the items. those sacred items were created for good intention and those intentions don't change. we are the ones that may try to change it, our humanity. >> it's a competent and situation where a french auction house is motivated by threats which are unwelcome alliances, unwelcome contributions really. why don't we turned then to cecil and hear from our final panelist? >> [speaking ojibwe]

good afternoon. i would like to just comment that there have been a lot of really good things shared here. today as i sat and listened many of those things that have been thought about and discussed and spoken of, i think many of us have had those thoughts before, and so when we accept that responsibility to