we turned 100 years old. >> fantastic. i want to ask all our panelists why do we care so much about what the first lady wears? when is the impact? what is the legacy? what is the message the first lady sends? >> i think she's a symbolic figure. she's in a way a little like the queen of america. people look at her to see what kind of female image she's conveying. >> and i think we also see her as the mother of our country for the time that she's in office, and i think that people definitely want to emulate her and, you know, seek guidance from how she is conducting herself and projecting herself to the world. >> and i want to remind everyone, we're going to have a question and answer session at the end of this, so if you have questions about any of these things and you think you might forget, write them down. and we have the -- we have

dolley madison who presided other the first inaugural ball in 1809. what did we think about dolley madison and the impact she had? it's taking us back. >> way back. >> way back. >> dolley madison was criticized. people criticized here, didn't they, and thought she was too fancy and too much into fashion and too aristocratic, not democratic enough. >> not democratic enough, but you could come to dolley madison's parties as long as you were appropriately dressed, so for their time very democratic. >> they did that in versailles as long as you were properly dressed. >> when you think dolley madison grew up as a quaker, so when she married james madison, she broke from this quaker background, so a woman who had been very demurely dressed suddenly had this ability to really just blazen out in amazing clothes and she's fond of reds and yellows and turbans, maybe a nod to that quaker cap. she's able to fulfill this dazzling vision -- you have to

wonder if this is what she longed to look like as a little girl. >> yeah. >> and there are some of dolley madison's dazzling red i have to say. when you say one had to be appropriately dressed going to visit the white house, what did that mean at that time? >> well, a lot of controversy was whether you could wear boots to the white house. boots or shoes. if you're probably shod and you're properly jacketed and can present a respectable appearance you just need an introduction to go to dolley madison's white house. if you know somebody get a card of introduction, you could be admitted to mrs. madison's crushes and they are so popular they literally are called squeezes or crushes and people crowd into her drawing room. she really begins political entertaining. >> and do we believe that there's anything that is significant about the construction of clothing from this era that contributes to the overall impact that it has and the effect it has on us either emotionally or psychologically?

>> well it's called the empire style. >> yes. >> because it's very high-waisted and it's worn essentially without a corset, more like a kind of protoe brassiere, and so it's completely different than 18th century aristocratic dress with a cone shaped corset and the big hoops. it's very body conscious. it's very kind of liberating, and at the time a lot of people in america and in france thought of it as being, you know, a republican style, not an aristocratic style. it evoked the idea of ancient greece and rome, democracy republics. >> and compared to what proceeded it was almost monastic in a manner of seeing. >> you can have the nice plain white ones but they also have some glamorous ones. you have a empire low cut gown and turban and jewelry, you could look pretty fantastic. she was lucky for a quaker. >> fantastic fashion. >> i'm amazed there was so much bosom exposed, especially for a

quaker and for a first lady but that was the style of the time. >> it was definitely the style. so this is an example of a gown that mrs. madison would have worn in her youth. so this goes back to what you were describing, valerie. >> except much plainer. the whole quaker look was you were in sort of gray and noncolors. it stood for trying to stand out of society and all of its competition that fashion was frivolous and external, and a lot of that goes through american hit not just with the quakers. a whole kind of puritanical sense that fashion is unnecessary and elitist and so to be a quaker was to make that point very clearly. >> dolley madison also was impoverished later in her life, so she wears clothes again and again and remakes them, and this is one of the dresses we have in the collection of dolley madison's that has been remade over time either by dolley madison herself or by a

descendant because a lot of our dresses are remade. it was very popular to wear great grandmama's clothing to a fancy dress party or just as a remembrance. so a lot of our clothes, say the skirt will have been styled to a slightly different silhouette or the bodice will have been changed slightly. >> we like recycling. that's environmentally friendly. >> before their time. >> yes, exactly. so here we have julia tyler, and she was, indeed, a great beauty, and she only held the role of first lady for eight months, the eight months of john tyler's presidency, and she was often seen wearing white satin. and what are our thoughts about julia tyler and what kind of significance could she have had with such a short reign? >> in eight months, not much. >> wasn't she one of the younger first ladies as well? >> at that point she was the youngest first lady, and she married the widowed president. his wife had died and she was

younger than some of his children, and there was a whirlwind romance and her father -- she's very conscious of herself. she styled herself as the rose of long island and had to be taken off to europe by her family because she posed for an advertisement which was just scandalous at the time, but she came back with a taste for european. so part of this look, this white satin, is that she wanted to sit on a dais and have people presented to her as at court. she actually had a reasonable impact on white house entertaining in a short amount of time. it might not have been the impact she wanted, but the white house changes from egalitarian republican to a much more high style and exclusive and she was one of the exclusive swings that swung back after they left. >> i would love to ask you, lisa kathleen, how do you verify or corroborate these legends and tales? is it difficult?

>> some of them are difficult. can you find a letter? is there correspondence? is there a diary. dolley madison's dress, that red dress we saw, the story, of course, is that it was made out of the red velvet drapes she saved from the burning of the white house, and that's a wonderful story. if it's not true, it should be true because it's a wonderful story. >> too bad. it's a great story. >> the greensboro historical museum owns the dress and the dar in d.c. actually has a piece of the curtain, what is supposed to be the red velvet curtain. for an exhibit at the national portrait gallery the two pieces met and because we had just gotten the really wonderful new microscope in the conservation lab, they came to our lab to -- and they both met under the microscope to see if we could prove that this was the same fabric. >> and did the -- >> it's not the same fabric. now, so we know if this was the

curtain, it wasn't made -- the dress was not made of this curtain. what we don't know if that was really a curtain. so now we have a second mystery to solve. was that piece that they have really a piece of the red velvet curtain. >> there's another letter to be found somewhere. >> somewhere. >> we'll go back to julia tyler. and on to sarah polk. we are now up to 1845 to '49. and how is dressing in this particular time different? how has it evolved? >> well, this is really sort of what you think of as an early victorian style. it's very much more conventionally feminine. you're back to the corset. you're back to a full skirt over petticoats. although she's wearing a dark dress, you do see much more distinction between men in black suits and women in sort of lighter and more delicate colors and fabrics. so you get real gender distinction at this period. part of the idea of women should have their domestic role at home

and be really sort of different creatures than men. >> and what about the relationship between fashion in america and europe? were they a nation of borrowers then? >> yes, yes, absolutely. you had -- par ris was already and had been for more than 100 years the center of women fashion. and american fashion magazines had images which were based on those from french fashion magazines, but at the same time you have this drum beat of complaints that how can the daughters of puritan ancestors wear clothing designed in the wicked city of paris? so then you have american magazines and dressmakers saying they're going to americanize fashion and that often means making them a little bit simpler or a little more modest or it could just be boilerplate, it could be the similar dress. >> so were most of these clothes actually made here? >> most of them would be made here.

>> they would not be brought over by europe? >> if you were wealthy, could -- you could get things but most things were made here. you might have fabric shipped over and then have dressmakers make it here. >> i didn't realize, too, that victorian fashion wanted to make women look smaller so a lot of the proportions were larger to make women look more petite. i thought that was interesting. >> to make your waist and extremities, the hands and feet should be little. but the hips should be full and your bosom should be full and your shoulders should be full. you want to have plump voluptuous shoulders and a big, big butt. by the 1880s one english writer said no man would stay long with a woman whose skinny buttocks he can hold in the palm of one hand. >> sounds like today. sounds like nicki minaj and j.

lo, kim k. >> and this brocade gown says all that. it really does. >> can you imagine kim kardashian in that? >> i'd prefer not to. >> your corset was the first wonder bra pushing it up and up. >> and what about these accessories? what are these? these are turbans. >> that's a really cool turban. that one -- i think that's so amazing, the striped one. >> it is tunisian silk with a tassel. >> i love that. i want that. >> sarah polk purchased these in paris, and did this become popular? were people suddenly wearing turbans everywhere? >> turbans went in and out. you had them in dolley madison's time and they came back a little bit in the 1840s --

>> was this before hairdressers were popular? i ask with some sincerity. >> no, it was more supposed to be a glamorous, exotic look. >> and here we have harriet lane and she's the niece of james buchanan. >> she's the niece of james but buchanan. she served as his first lady and she was considered to be just an absolute beauty, elegant member of the white house. she actually entertained the prince of wales and rather scandalously had gentlemen giving her presents and her uncle had to -- she used to hide things because she knew her uncle wouldn't let her accept some of the jewelry and other things that gentlemen were trying to give her. >> and as the niece of the president, was she considered a first lady in standing? >> she was the first lady, served as the first lady, and is really one of the first first ladies to be called first lady. >> that's interesting. >> by the press in magazines. dolley madison is referred to as the first lady of our land in a eulogy but this is the first

first lady in media really, and she did. he was unmarried his entire life. she lived with him most of her life and served as his host yes and, therefore, became his first lady. >> do you think they called upon the term first lady, the press did, because it was awkward and she's not a wife and she is not a consort and -- >> i like consort. she would have enjoyed that. i think partly it's to -- it's to have something to call you since you don't have a title. martha washington was lady washington, but lady buchanan sounds a little odd. it's also to promote the idea that this is the first lady in the land. she is the one who will be setting fashion and who you are following. the consort really of the president. so in diplomatic visits, for instance, this is the woman entertaining the prince of wales. you need something to give her a little more stature than miss buchanan. >> she seems to have incredible style.

>> i love this dress. it drove our photographers crazy. it is a worth gown and it's -- the deepest midnight blue i have ever seen velvet with the white satin and the silver. it did make our photographers insane to try to light and shoot but it is one of my favorite pieces in the collection. i would try it on. if you could secretly try them on, this would be the piece. >> that's not allowed. >> would you ever permit that? >> we fantasize but we don't carry it out. >> well, we're moving on to mary todd lincoln, and this is quite a staggering looking gown. >> this is -- i will say this is not painted from life. this was painted by her niece after her -- i believe after her death, and when you advance the slide, you will notice it's modelled on a matthew brady

photograph. >> so it's romanticized. >> it is a highly romanticized >> and it seems like she's wearing that dress with that head dress. >> that's a good point. >> could well be, yeah. >> she may very well be. >> i think it's modeled on that photograph. >> very interesting. >> now she also famously had dressmaker elizabeth kekly who was a well known african-american dressmaker. and she was criticized wasn't she, for being so interested in fashion. >> mary lincoln wanted to be dolley madison which was absolutely who you should be modeling yourself after and had war not broken out, she would have probably been an incredible successful white house hostess. the civil war broke out. on the one hand mary is doing the right thing which is showing the stature and stability of the presidency by entertaining and dressing well and playing this part. on the other hand there's a war going on and you're going to be criticized for fashion. she's a therapy shopper to be fair.

she is in uncomfortable situation. she doesn't have as much of her husband's time as she would normally have. she was accused of being a spy. elizabeth kekly becomes her confidant so fashion is a way they can talk together and work together. it became her downfall in the end. she was taken out by something called the old clothes scandal where mary tried to sell her old clothes which is hardly a disreputable thing to do. she was so afraid after the president's death of being impoverished that she employed elizabeth kekly to go with her to new york where they were trying to be discreet but people knew who mrs. lincoln was and they stayed in a hotel where mary lincoln refused to stay in a room that mrs. kekly couldn't stay in, so they slept in the attics because the hotel wouldn't serve mrs. kekly and the restaurant wouldn't serve mrs. kekly. they wouldn't eat in the restaurant. they would have food in their room. to find dealers who would sell mary's clothes and it became a

nine-day wonder as all of new york came to look at mary's clothes but would not bid on mary's clothes and the press is scathing. it's the reason mrs. kekly wrote her memoir to try and save mary's reputation. >> and then mary severed their relationship. >> she was so disconcerted by elizabeth consecutive -- kekly, who was trying to tell good things about her, this woman she called her best and dearest friend, they never spoke again.s woman she called her best and dearest friend, they never spoke again. >> mrs. lincoln was kind of manic depressive. >> i think today she probably could have benefited from a little prozac. >> she went through quite a bit. >> she went through quite a bit. had two children die -- had three children die and her husband die in front of her. i can understand if she was a little depressed but when you're talking about the decolletage mary lincoln was very fond of her shoulders. her husband thought she was

beautiful. one dress in mrs. kekly's memoir where he -- long train and a low bodice, and he remarked that the cat had a fine tail tonight, maybe if a little more of the tail were up by the neck, it would be a finer dress. >> this is an elizabeth kekly dress. >> it is. >> as is this. that's the back of it. >> actually it's the bodice, two bodices, right? >> is that formal? >> absolutely. many, many dresses had two bodices, one for evening and one for day because by this time there's a real distinction for evening, sure, plunging, but for daytime you're all covered up. that wouldn't have been true in dolley madison's day, but here it's very clear distinctions between in the evening you were with your social equals theoretically and it was all as aesthetic display. it wasn't considered overtly sexual. but in the daytime you're out with the hoi polloi and you're

all covered up. >> i have a sincere question. how much did the first lady's wardrobe impact the reputation of the president and his administration? was it just a side bar? >> i think it's a very easy thing to trivialize and it's certainly not the first thing you're thinking about in a presidential administration but mrs. rob said something earlier about dressing -- showing your value, dressing to your value. showing for what you're worth. >> sell for what you're worth. >> thank you. selling for what you're worth. that's the first lady's job. she's representing the administration, the style of the administration, how formal the administration is, and really the stability and value of the administration. if this is a well put together, stately, expensively dressed woman, then you can reckon the administration is stable, has style, can entertain european dignitaries and can stand equal with the crowned heads of europe which when you're trying to get somebody to come in on your side of the civil war -- when you need england to come in on your side,

that's what you want to present. >> precisely. let's move on to mrs. grover cleveland, frances cleveland, and let's see some of her style. >> was that painting in the style of sargent or by sergeant? >> i believe that one is in the style of sargent. >> this is a worth gown also. and it is silk indian muslin embroidered with orange blossoms and draped with a silk tulle falling from a circlet on her hand. >> this would have been the height of fashion. worth was the most famous courtier in paris. to be one of his clients you would travel to paris go to his shop. he would put together a look for you. he was the first one who took

coutures from being dressmakers to being someone who was all about big business and high art. and very often he'd tell his client, i see you in yellow he was sort of a dictator and much mocked in the press, but he was the first hugely successful established couture. you couldn't get better than this. >> when we think of a fashion designer, his name is the one that pops up at the very beginning. >> this is also her wedding dress. >> ah. there is her wedding which happened in -- when did it happen? >> in the white house, i believe in the blue room if i remember correctly and that's an absolutely fictitious drawing. >> it was hidden from reporters. an announcement went out that the president was going to be married. people were literally trying to peer in through the windows which were blocked, and the artists had to come up with their rendition of what the wedding must have looked like.

she was amazingly -- they called her yum yum, and speculation had been that he would marry her mother. when asked, you know, are you getting married? he said he was waiting for his bride to grow up and he wasn't kidding. >> she was very young. >> she was very young. she was 21. she graduated from college, went to europe, came home and married the president of the united states. she's sort of an old head on young shoulders. very stately, very grave, very mature. >> and here she is wearing what we would call a choker today around her neck and at the time they were calling it a dog collar, and i don't think it was a compliment. >> well, it was a following alexandra princess of wales that helped establish that. hers were often encrusted with diamonds. again, very stylish.

>> she's also -- it's a kind of an odd -- i'm sure the wctu took comfort in it. of course, this young first lady is supposed to be a role model. so they announced that mrs. cleveland was going to stop wearing those very low cut bodices which they thought was a wonderful thing. they hadn't checked with mrs. cleveland. mrs. cleveland, thank you very much, she would continue to wear what she was going to wear. so they had to take comfort in the gloves and the sleeves. >> here we see another example where the bodice is switched out in favor of this. >> that would be a dinner bodice. >> dinner bodice, i like it. does it also mean it expands? >> sadly, you can see that's a corseted waist. notice how it's -- the dress is made with the set bodice and a separate skirt. that's typical. you don't have many one-piece dresses then. >> actually the piece on that, three bodices to this. the one it came with, which is actually the peach bodice made in paris, and then when they got back to america, that green bodice was made by lotty barton, a baltimore dressmaker, and some of the width was taken out of the skirt and remodeled as yet another bodice.

>> i love the petticoat peeking out. >> i know. it is wonderful. back up again. yes. all right. now we have -- this is woodrow wilson who was in the white house from 1913 until 1921, which is -- it was a very interesting period of time for a lot of reasons. >> she looks in that first picture like the whole transition in fashion happened between the first picture and the second. >> yes, that's true. when you look at this. so this is the -- i guess the flapper era, valerie. >> well, it looks like it's early '20s, like 1920. >> probably about. yeah. more -- well, if it's from the white house, then it's the very late teens, and she was very fond of black. so most of her clothes aside from being a widow, a widow who

married the president, most of her clothing was in black and white. >> so was she forward thinking in her taste and proclivities? >> i find it hard to believe it's the late teens. to me it looks like it's the early '20s but it's hard to tell from the picture. i'd like to see it in person. >> i wonder if it's a post-white house dress. >> it could be a post-white house dress. >> well, here is another -- >> this is another very pretty one. >> it's very pretty. >> that could be teens. that could be late teens. >> that reminds me. >> i doubt it is but it has that ethnic, romantic feel. so nice. >> according to our notes, the label inside the jacket identifies this as a piece by worth. >> well, porire had worked for worth for a little while. the sons of worth. although when they hired him they said even a great restaurant needs a potato friar, so you're in charge of the french fries.

we'll do the grand ball gowns, you can do the day dresses. he didn't last long there. >> and this is also attributed to worth and was worn at a private dinner party at the white house in 1915. >> now, see, that's kind of retrograde for 1915. it's not at all fashionable. that's more like a 1912 looking dress, 1913. sorry. >> but the way the bosom -- >> it's really old-fashioned with that monobosom. the new high waist empire style. >> i have to say almost every dress when we were trying to mount -- this is a dress on exhibit right now. and we have a good amount of edith wilson's clothes, some that came from the national trust and some that came from mrs. wilson herself really as they were cleaning out the house in d.c. after her husband's death, but every dress we took down to the conservator.

we'd choose a new one and it would go downstairs and i'd get a call from park evans, our conservator and say you have to come look at this, she did something to it. mrs. wilson had a sewing machine and apparently like to fiddle with her clothes because almost every one of these pieces has been cut up or remade and the struggle with finding a dress that was mostly intact that we could mount and didn't look weird was time consuming, and this is the dress we finally came up with that she had done the least damage to. >> you can keep them as historical items. forfeit, for a fashion museum, we'd be like, sorry, it's not working. >> and why was she compelled to do all this tweaking? >> we've been very curious and we're still trying to find -- if we can find a note that says today i was bored and i remade my dinner dress from 1915. you know, i can speculate that she spent a lot of time alone, a lot of time with her ailing husband, maybe she just sewed to

amuse herself. she did make her own red cross hat, so maybe it's just a strange hobby she had. or maybe she fancied herself as a designer and wanted to see -- it's sort of what we were speculating. she had an interest in fashion and maybe she wanted to see what she could do with her clothes. >> if valerie is collect, she would have been the first one out on "project runway." >> so make it work -- >> yes. she was having difficulty making it work. so we're moving on to grace coolidge. mrs. calvin coolidge. he was in the white house from 1923 to 1929, and this is a gorgeous -- >> beautiful. >> painting. very beautiful. >> the president wanted her to wear a white dress and the artist said he wanted the composition to be red and white and apparently the president, who liked the odd joke, said paint the dog red.

>> and you said that dress was originally slit higher, right, like with some leg showing? >> it was in the notes. >> apparently. this is part of the white house historical association, not ours. >> and this is a very interesting photograph. president coolidge prevented grace from wearing pants and bobbing her hair as short as she would have preferred, and he often bought her luxurious hats and gowns to wear to public events. what's interesting about this photograph, we were looking at it earlier, it is in the white house. it's a staircase that no longer exists. it's been removed, and i hope not because of what she was wearing. this is quite beautiful. >> this is beautiful. >> beaded. >> it's a flapper dress from '25 or '26. that's a perfect little flapper dress. see how heavily beaded it is.

>> it's interesting how much of that cami sticks out of the arm hole. >> normally an arm would be there. >> i think it helps. >> he was a notorious cheap skate and this was his one extravagance was to buy his wife clothes or come home and say i saw this things and you must have it. he thought she was beautiful, doted on her, ant didn't want her to wear the same thing twice. >> and did she like the president's taste? >> she seems to have. she was very subservient isn't the right word but she knew what he liked and these were not the battles she was going to choose. she also had a suing machine. >> everyone sewed then. you had to. >> she liked casual clothes.

she liked some of the sports wear that was coming out at the time. so if you see a lot of candid pictures of her, you can see a much more casual look. >> and she was an avid animal lover. it begs the question what is she doing with that raccoon. >> that's rebecca. this is rebecca the raccoon. >> did it become a collar? did poor rebecca end up on a coat. >> the temptation to say yes, eleanor roosevelt, there was always that fox. >> that's true. and here we have eleanor roosevelt, who was in the white house for a very long time. 1933 until 1945. and this is her crepe -- silk crepe evening gown for the 1933 inaugural ball. >> i read that the sleeves were removable -- oh, i see where. up here. >> we have it on display now with the sleeves off because that's the way she wore it. >> it is how she wore it.

>> and there are wonderful moonstone clasps at the shoulders that you can take it off. my favorite part, though, it's not an eleanor roosevelt. you don't think eleanor roosevelt is slinky but the back fastens with a small clasp and if you take the sleeves off you can also open up the back and have it come down and so you get a nice draped low back and it's just such -- it's a wonderful -- very movie star to me. very '30s -- >> such a wonderful, sexy, stylish decade. >> but you don't think of eleanor roosevelt and sexy. >> it's true. you don't. >> no. >> she was a bit of a minx. and christmas readings from the president and mrs. roosevelt. is hard to tell what either one of them is wearing except that it's white. and this is a lawn party for white house guards. well, that was very democratic

in it's own way. >> the suit on the right is a dress. always looks like a suit to me but it's a dress and this is what she wore to the first inaugural ceremony. >> interesting. >> it's beautiful. >> they call it eleanor blue but it's a lavender color. it was eleanor blue. oddly we have the hat that's supposed to go with it in the collection made out of the same fabric but she didn't wear it. i'd love to know why. >> what was the fabric? >> it's a velvet, so it's a beautiful sort of shimmery lavender. a wedding personally. lavender velvet with a matching hat with little flowers toward the back. >> i think she looks better with the contrast. >> so it wasn't uncommon at all for first ladies to recycle looks and wear things numerous times. >> yes. you wear your clothes again, especially during a depression,

during a war, but you also -- it's something you can say to show that you are not as extravagant as people might think that you might be. and the press will note if you're wearing something again, and depending upon the event, the press, and how popular you are, you're either going to get credit for that or it's going to be a detriment and people are going to remark that you're not supporting the fashion industry enough, that you're not buying enough new clothing, that you're not giving a good impression of the united states. you can't win. you cannot win when you're the first lady with your clothes. >> these were serious warriors. it was especially difficult. didn't want to step up and out. now we have mrs. dwight d. eisenhower in the white house from 1953 until 1961. and what do we think about mrs. eisenhower's style? >> very '50s. >> very. >> quintessentially '50s.

pretty in pink, big poofy skirt. >> one of the most popular with little girls who visit the collection. you can't beat the fairytale pink princess dress. >> well, that we see right here. most definitely. certainly is bedazzled. so, valerie, do you think mrs. eisenhower was able to retain the style because she could purchase it or do you think it was embedded in her and, lisa kathleen, i'm asking you the same. >> it's of the period so in that sense it's fashionable but it's by no means cutting edge fashion. it's sort of ann fogerty. it's not dior. >> she loves clothes, but mimi eisenhower will tell you herself -- this is by netty rosenstein, she will go to a designer or buy it from a mail order catalog. whatever she thinks is pretty

is what interests her and also doesn't look old. mimi eisenhower is concerned she doesn't look old ladyish. and this dress to me is an example of something that made her feel young in which she appeared young. >> here is another of mrs. eisenhower's gowns. >> more pink. >> which comes with matching shoes, matching purse, and frightening opera length matching gloves. that is more magenta than you have ever seen in your life. >> oh, dear. >> the '50s could be sublime or it could be just frightening. >> when they said you had the mimi look, was that a put down or was that a compliment? >> at the time it's almost always a compliment i think, that you're dressing like -- that you're mimi pink. if you're first lady seems to have a color, that you're wearing mamie pink or something popular in the white house, you'd certainly catch the first lady's eye if you are dressed like her.

if you're going to an event at the white house, it can't hurt to have something mrs. eisenhower would like. >> pink was a very popular color. think pink again, sort of femininity, the feminine mystique. i think a lot of people could identify with her and her clothes and that would make it popular. >> most definitely. and i love the caption to this photo. it says mamie enjoyed a good bargain. >> mail order hats. >> and this is interesting, lisa kathleen, can you tell us about this textile? >> this actually is not a piece of our collection, but it is a toile, and it shows scenes in their life. it's the house in gettysburg and other places they have visited and been. so it's really sort -- kind of like you make a quilt would be the story of our life. this fabric in a little way is

sort of a scrapbook of the eisenhowers. >> do we know where the dress is? >> i do not know. i will assume it's in the presidential library system. and the head of the library system just went, um, maybe. >> moving on to mrs. kennedy who was we all know a style setter and someone people followed very, very, very carefully. what was it about mrs. kennedy's style? >> it seemed aristocratic. >> and i think it was very much a kind of upper class style which went from eastern seaboard right across to europe. so it was a look which for a lot of americans i think was strikingly chic. i think if other people in her milieu just thought these were the nice clothes that people -- one wore, you know, but for the average american, it was sort of the first sight of a first lady wearing this sort of very chic

clothing. >> so was it a glimpse inside a rarified universe? >> i think so. i think that would be fair to say. >> also it always seemed to me it's a style you can look at and think it might be achievable for you. you can imagine buying that dress. >> and she had a huge impact that way. >> women's wear daily covered her like a wear. everything she did they were covering and the general public as well was fascinated. >> it did sort -- i love this picture. it's jackie in a strapless dress, and i remember we have in the collection we have a sleeveless dress, a one-shoulder dress and a extrasless dress and a cocktail dress with a jacket. i remember reading there was concern over mrs. kennedy's shoulders and whether they could be seen. and cassini talked about having to convince the president it was okay. they moved from the inaugural gown which was sleeveless but

with an overlay of chiffon to a one-shoulder dress for her first state beginner gown to eventually the strapless dresses. they found out the public liked mrs. kennedy's shoulders just fine. >> i was amazed i read that, that he didn't want her wearing the strapless gowns. >> always part of a continual problem, what is the public going to say about what you're going to wear. is it appropriate. you belong to us, you're the first lady s what you're wearing appropriate. lord knows we all have opinions on people's clothes. you look at it now, can mrs. obama wear the cardigan to meet the queen and can she wear shorts and sneakers in the grand canyon, but what would you wear in the grand canyon? >> a ball gown. it's true. i just want to make one comment, this is the president and mrs. kennedy with the cultural attache from france. they're at the national gallery of art here. the mona lisa is visiting. what year is it? at any rate all i will say is as a kid i remember standing in line to see the mona lisa and it

was well worth it. and this is a beautiful dress. this is oleg cassini, 1961. yellow silk. and so the black and white photograph is of the look that you see in color, but the bodice is switched out because the bodice -- >> still switching bodice. >> the bodice in the black and white photograph is dark. >> it was dark green, the original bodice. switched out for the pink. >> do we know why? does it even matter? matter of taste? she changed her mind. at least she didn't sew it up. >> can you imagine jackie o. like -- >> all right. we're moving on to mrs. richard nixon, 1969 to 1974.

and it was maintained that mrs. nixon represented the average woman. what do we think about that? >> who put that forth? >> they just purposely -- nixon knew even winning he wasn't the most popular of individuals. when he campaigned in '60, he actually said whatever you think of me, we all can agree that pat would be a wonderful first lady. it's like such an odd thing to say, but she was a lovely woman, a friendly woman who wasn't used nearly to the effect that she could have been by the white house because they just didn't understand her charm and the value and the power that she had. so they trotted her out as a symbol of the average housewife, and sort of tried to mold her into this look or this image of this -- she's just like you. >> well, and you think of when

nixon talked about her republican cloth coat, that she was not the kind of person who was in a fancy fur coat, and then you compare that to all of the reports about mrs. kennedy shopping and spending thousands -- tens of thousands of dollars so mrs. kennedy said i would have had to buy sable underwear to spend that much money. you have two different images in the public of two first ladies. >> which is how you can use the first lady and her fashion to promote the presidency, to promote your candidacy and create a particular image for your white house. >> and these are images of mrs. nixon in clothing that we're used to seeing her in. it was a kind of uniform. how would we describe it? >> it kind of reminds me of the queen in a way. sort of one monochromatic, one color so you can pick her out in a crowd. you came to see this lady, so she wants you to be able to see her. that's part of what she's doing is being visible for you.

>> and it's unexceptionable. it's perfectly fine but it's not fashionable. it's a kind of ceremonial uniform. i think that's really a good idea. >> and mrs. nixon is really hoping to age well. it is age appropriate. the coming of the 1970s even an appropriate dresser looks a little odd and it's very easy for others to look extremely off. >> it's the decade that taste forgot.

>> >> in the collection it fascinates me because i never think of an evening gown as having a front zipper but betty ford state's dinner dress. she's the only first lady who got to choose something to send to us. she chose a dress she had worn to several state dinners and it was made by frankie welch an alexandria designer. it has a zipper in the front. i don't think i have ever, ever seen -- i would ask you, is this really odd? >> what is the date of the gown? >> i'm going to say 1974. >> in the '40s there were more. >> it's not unheard of for them. >> it's a lovely dress.

>> at least it's beautiful. and here is a close-up of mrs. nixon's inaugural gown, one of them. is that correct? >> this is her first inaugural gown. and i have to say, this is one of the pieces we were surprised to find displays so much better and so much better since we've redone the mannequins. the sparkle on the bolero. it's a very simple dress and it has the most amazing shimmer to it. anyway she turned or moved, it just must have been this beautiful glitter, and a series of dresses in this time period, it's interesting yellow, when we put them all together, you realize yellow was very popular for a while. we have a series of dresses that are pastel, pastel yellow, pastel blue, pastel green, and then you move to the other side and we have the nancy reagan white and vivid blue, purple, vivid red, and back to white again. so it's -- we have an interesting rainbow going on.

>> interesting. well, we are going to move on to mrs. ronald reagan and the white house from 1981 to 1989. and this is my least favorite fashion decade, i have to say. >> well, one thing you have to notice with this is how mrs. reagan i would think almost single handedly transformed red from being the color of communist revolution to the color of republicans. so all these men wearing red ties owe a debt to mrs. reagan for transforming the symbolism of this color. >> that's a powerful operation. >> very powerful operation. >> to have succeeded. >> and a wonderful example of fashion really reshaping the image of the white house. you move from the carters who had this -- the white house is never going to be casual but a much more -- even their inaugural balls were called parties, not balls, but a much more casual entertaining style,

purposely more casual look and then when the reagans were elected, all of the prespeculation is on the hollywood glamour that will come and mrs. reagan's designer clothes and what will the new style of the white house be. and that was a white tie inaugural ball. the first one since the eisenhowers. >> and galanos. >> and galanos. in fact, this is galanos. the last two were adolfo. >> there was a scandal, too, about her accepting designer clothes as gifts, was there not? >> i thought about that. >> were they gifts or were they declared. but she came from a world where this is normal.

>> in hollywood, you get swag all the time. >> all the time. and how to translate that into washington life which is just such a very, very different thing. and, you know, a few bumps in the road. fascinating closet, though. everything has a tag. and she recorded when she wore this dress, to what function she wore this dress, the date on which she wore this dress and everything is tag sod that you can tell because she does re-wear clothes and you can tell when in rotation it had been. sentimental -- >> there's a sign of a person that's really interested in clothes and her wardrobe. >> and how she presents herself. >> yes. >> didn't want to greet the same person twice in the same dress. >> it's actually very thoughtful, i think. >> tim, i think you had that tie on last time. [ laughter ] >> can't you get another tie? >> exactly. >> over and over. >> i think he only owns one. you might. that might be your perception. i'm going to start labeling my clothes.

>> on the sentimental side, you know, mrs. carter wore a dress for the gubernatorial ball and it was a sweetly sentimental choice. mrs. reagan with a beautiful and it is a gorgeous dress beautiful galanos dress and truthfully it's a very sentimental journey. he had made the gown for ronald reagan's gubernatorial inaugural ball, one shoulder white wool decorated. so i think mrs. reagan was also making a little bit of a sentimental journey. >> but that's different hiring one of america's greatest couturiers. >> pull it out of the closet and walk it out here. >> here mrs. reagan is in another adolfo suit. >> why wasn't chanel suing at this point? >> as you know, here we can copy everybody and it's perfectly legal. no, it's true. all this inspiration from europe.

i spent a lot of time -- tracy, you probably did, too. capital hill advocacy, fashion designers do not own their intellectual property and it is largely because we were a nation of copiers. there was no incentive to have such laws in place. >> right. >> we could rip people off right and left and it's perfectly legal. >> many people would like to have intellectual property rights. >> yes. >> there are like ten times more who don't want to go down that road. >> that's true. >> because it would hurt their business. >> so we're moving on to mrs. clinton. and how would we describe mrs. clinton's style? moving on to a dress. >> famous pantsuit and the hair problems. >> and i think at the heart of it i just feel like it's not important to her. you know what i mean? i mean, i think public service is very important to her. >> yes. >> but her appearance is like, it's down on the list. >> i have to say -- >> i have a lot of things to day. >> mrs. clinton is looking very presidential these days. >> she is. >> there is definitely an

evolution that's been taking place. the bar has been raised. >> since she got to be friends with oscar and donna. >> at least she's taking notice. >> upgrade a little bit. >> i think mrs. clinton is also -- this is a problem rosalynn carter had. and it comes as a surprise and a bit of a shock that people are this interested in your clothes and take such an intense interest in your clothes. or that part of your job was going to be to promote american fashion. >> right. >> it is just if i do good work, you should be looking at that, but it is a part of the first lady's job to promote the american fashion industry and promote american looks and to be a kind of billboard for a large part of our economy. and, you know, no one tells you that coming in until you start finding out that you're supposed to have these particular looks, and it's a very valid thing for first lady to be doing. just as you're an emissary for the u.s., you should be an emissary for fashion. >> also, i'm always talking about the clothes we wear send a

message about how the world perceives us whoever we happen to be. and the work i have done on capitol hill having elected individuals run from me saying i don't want you to judge me. i didn't know you were going to be here. [ laughter ] and my response is, i'm never going to judge you providing you accept responsibility for how you're presenting yourself to the world. so if you choose to run, run on your own account but not on mine. >> well, two, you have to think, mrs. clinton was a lawyer. lawyers are not the best dressed socioeconomic group in america. they're notoriously very conservative, it's very kind of

frumpy. that's why people think that fashion is all about money. if you think take a group of lawyers, now take a group of hairdressers, which one is better dressed? it's the hairdressers because they're interested in fashion and the lawyers mostly aren't, except when it's important for your client. you have to dress to impress the jury. and thinking that way, a lot of careful thought. and i think mrs. clinton slowly started to learn that in a way the american public was like a jury. that they were looking and they were judging. >> absolutely. so now we have mrs. bush? and let's move to her style. here. seen also with nancy reagan. so what would we like to say about mrs. bush's style? >> laura bush was apparently not very interested in fashion, unlike barbara bush, who was very interested in fashion.

we think of barbara bush locking like a granny with her little fake pearls and stuff. but she was really good friends with scaasi and had very fancy dresses whereas laura bush doesn't seem to have been particularly interested. i mean, she wanted to look appropriate and everything, but it wasn't an interest of hers. >> i just always think of her as being so mild and seeing photos of her wearing soft colors and it's relatively demure. nothing that's going to shout out because i think she just has a very gentle, mild presence. >> no fake cowboy looking like he sometimes would put on. >> there was an interesting color shift, though. >> yes. >> that went on because she was very taupe. and sort of beige when they were running. and when she came in and -- and the beautiful red dress. and michael faircloth tells a story about coming to see the first lady's exhibit and mrs. bush asked him to look at the exhibition and see what color had been used recently so they didn't repeat a color. he didn't see red and red was a favorite color of his and it's a gorgeous color on her and so he designed this beautiful sparkly crimson ruby red dress. and as time went on, you notice mrs. bush wearing more color and beautiful, deep colors which are

beautiful on her. but it's -- i think when you see pictures of yourself that much you start to see how everyone else is seeing you and you can start to look at yourself in these settings and, you know, maybe adjust a little bit. >> you do also see her turning away from him from regional designers to national designers. >> there's a trend the first designer is maybe somebody from home or somebody you have known and the second designer, at least for the inaugural gown, the second designer is a name that everyone recognizes. i don't know what lessons learned are from that, but you've come to know that this is -- >> for clinton, for bush, but i don't think for that many. i'm not sure we can draw moral from it. >> i think maybe you just learned the first one might not be as successful as you wanted. >> actually, i think mrs. obama is the only one, maybe mamie eisenhower who used the same designer twice. i'll have to think about that, but for both inaugural gowns. >> here we have the divine mrs. obama. i have my biases. i have to say. and tracy, you have dressed our current first lady. >> it's been my honor, yeah. >> a number of times.

>> yeah. >> what is your sense of mrs. obama's style? >> you know what? i feel like she's just purely an individual who wears what she likes and knows looks good on her. i think she's -- she isn't looking really so much to the past to see how first ladies have dressed and should dress. she's really a woman of the moment. and i think it's very pure and natural how she presents herself and when you meet her and speak with her, that's what you get. you get this realness. and i think for the presidency and for, you know, their impact on the world and the country, i think they want to present this realness. >> it's sincere, don't you believe? >> yeah, very much is. >> i think she's had a huge impact on the fashion industry. not so much perhaps on the average american woman, though the right to bare arms struck a note with a lot of people. >> yes. >> but i think that for the fashion industry it's been super important. jason woo's career would be nowhere she hadn't worn those inaugural gowns and she spread the wealth around. she had different designers doing dresses and it helped a lot of them. >> she didn't just go to established designers. >> exactly. >> she went to a lot of new, younger designers or slightly more obscure designers and she also wears a lot of affordable clothing. >> yes, which is sensible. >> amazing. i think that people love to see her wearing something that they can afford to buy. >> and they do say if she is wearing something, j. crew, it will be sold out. >> it's true. >> in england it's the kate effect. and it will be gone the next day. >> there are dresses of ours that she's worn and, you know, stores call. she's really a woman of the moment. and i think it's very pure and natural how she presents herself and when you meet her and speak with her, that's what you get.

you get this realness. and i think for the presidency and for, you know, their impact on the world and the country, i think they want to present this realness. >> it's sincere, don't you believe? >> yeah, very much is. >> i think she's had a huge impact on the fashion industry. not so much perhaps on the average american woman, though the right to bare arms struck a note with a lot of people. >> yes. >> but i think that for the fashion industry it's been super important. jason woo's career would be nowhere she hadn't worn those inaugural gowns and she spread the wealth around. she had different designers doing dresses and it helped a lot of them. >> she didn't just go to established designers. >> exactly. >> she went to a lot of new, younger designers or slightly more obscure designers and she also wears a lot of affordable clothing. >> yes, which is sensible. >> amazing. i think that people love to see her wearing something that they can afford to buy. >> and they do say if she is

wearing something, j. crew, it will be sold out. >> it's true. >> in england it's the kate effect. and it will be gone the next day. >> there are dresses of ours that she's worn and, you know, stores call. i have certain stores please let us know if you know what she's going to wear because we'll order more. and, you know, you can't predict because they don't call you up the day before or the month before and say she's going to wear this on this date. you know? produce a few extra hundred or

thousand dresses. >> did you know that -- i have to say, i think the dress that you designed that she wore at the democratic convention, it's beautiful. it's one of my -- told you i covet that dress. >> thank you. >> for the collection. did you know she was going to wear that? >> i did not. we got a phone call, you know, a few weeks in advance saying she had a special engagement and, you know, if we had some ideas of something that, you know, might be appropriate or that she might like, to send them down. i'm sure that they called several people, the same. but they did not say what it was

for. i think it's the next slide. we had no idea. literally, the dnc, the convention was an evening when we were working. we were at the office because it was fashion week. >> yes. >> and -- >> slow period for you. >> slow period. and she came on like after 10:00 p.m. and our controller called. she was home. she was like mrs. obama's wearing our dress! everybody, like, we had to stream it on the computers, but we had no idea until she walked out on stage. and the funny thing with this dress is we had put sleeves on it. >> really? >> because they literally said, you know, she doesn't want the emphasis to be on her arms. it's an important engagement. we were like, okay, this is the original style is sleeveless. we put sleeves on it because they thought she might need them. they removed them. because it just looks better

without. she looked amazing, you know? like why cover those up? >> i know. so i have to ask you. what's it like to have the first lady wear your own creations? >> i can't -- >> what's it like? >> i can't really define it because she's someone that i admire greatly. having met her and been able to speak with her, even more so. it's not just someone out there that you're wondering about. it's someone that you have had the pleasure of getting to know. and i just respect her tremendously. she wears clothes beautifully and i think she's someone people are always excited to see. >> yes. >> i mean, it's funny. when mr. obama was running for presidency the first time there was a fund-raiser thrown in new york. anna wintour was one of the hosts and natalie and this list of fashion luminaries. and it was at a gallery in chelsea and, you know, we get there and it's this white room. and you have to shake anna wintour's hand. it was very personal speech and everyone was just getting more and more excited. she was looking at everyone in the crowd. she makes eye contact. and she looked directly at me and then she looked back. and she's speaking, and i'm looking behind me like who's she looking at. >> she's looking at you. >> at the end of the speech we had the opportunity to meet her but all of these fancy designers bum rushed the stage. it was hilarious.

people shouldering each other out and pushing and shoving and i was like, where am i? who are these people? you know? but that's how everybody was jockeying for position and for some kind of favor and, you know, to touch her arm. and it was interesting to see the fashion flock, you know, kind of get crazy because fashion flock is a tough, tough crowd. really tough crowd. but she won everybody over immediately. >> she is so capable of that. >> yeah. >> let's open the floor to questions. and we have -- do we have two mikes? one on each side. and we would like very much for you to rise and go to the mike. because we want everyone in the audience to hear your question. >> hello? >> hi there. >> thank you so much for being here tonight. and obviously, we are at the archives and looking at the history of first lady fashion, but we're living in an age where we might actually see the first

woman president. and so i was wondering if you all might like to speculate about what presidential lady fashion might look like. [ laughter ] [ applause ] >> well, there's certainly have been a number of female leaders around the world now so we've seen a variety of different styles. and i think that it's going to depend a lot on the particular person. if it's hillary clinton, i think that what she evolved into over the course of the last 20 years or so is probably going to be something like what you'll see. someone who is initially not particularly interested in fashion but who began to understand more about how it can work and got to be friends with some fashion designers and who accepts that it has a role in how people view you because she is a supremely intelligent woman. so i would assume it would have something of a role but probably not as much as if it were someone like michelle obama who i feel has a more natural sort of love of fashion and more sort of experimental feeling. and there i think that some of the same rules would apply, that the clothing would have to seem

to be appropriate, powerful and yet also somehow womanly. maybe not feminine in the mamie eisenhower sense, but so you don't want to look like an imitation man. >> right. >> i think also now is such a wonderful time for women in business. i mean, we have so much more choice. there's so much less that is dictated to us, and i think there's power in being sexy. there's, you know, without -- i'm not saying overtly sexy, but there's power in it, and women are starting to feel that and

use it more. so it would be interesting to see, you know, what could transpire. >> i'm always saying there's profound differences in the two genders, and show them off. >> work it. >> yeah. >> nothing else, it would be amazing to see color at a presidential press conference. >> it's true. >> it would be a first. >> hello. >> i think we have shown tonight that it's fun to laugh at first ladies for their fashion mistakes and that critics have been doing it for a few hundred years, but i think it becomes very problematic when you think about the implications it has on gender equality. and i think it's been interesting in the past few months especially to look at how people have been criticizing mr. obama's fashion, his summer suit got a lot of press recently. i was wondering if you thought that that indicated something about gender equality when it comes to fashion that everyone's an equal target now? >> i think that more and more that's becoming the case. if you look at something like woman's wear daily, sort of a bible for the fashion industry, they regularly rate men and they don't do it with women.

they only do it with men and grade them and they're harsh graders. like c-minus. and they'll detail everything from the haircut to the collar to the pants being too long to the shoes being wrong. i think very much we're becoming more and more of a visually literate society, and i think people are looking at men's clothes as well as women's clothes now more than they ever were before and more than they have for a long time. >> i will add men have escaped the criticism, and it's high time that they come under the microscope as well. it's true. [ applause ] >> also, when you think about it, these are not people who -- they didn't go into their business because they were interested in fashion. so it is -- you have to feel sorry for people in a way thrust into -- they have chosen to be in this limelight, but it's like the lawyers. this wasn't what they were expecting. and again it's always a shock, i think, especially for the men, to find out people are going to critique what they're wearing. you know? the president's dad jeans or, you know, badly cut suit. >> mom jeans. >> they should be criticized. >> this is just not what they thought they were going to be graded on when they got into this game. >> there will be no improvement

without criticism. >> on that note, too, i was at a gala last week, and there were so many senior gentlemen who were wearing tuxedos from 1980. >> oh. >> and i think there should be a rule. >> give it up. retire that. >> at least every ten years. update your tux. if your shoulders are out to here and it's sagging and your pants are very full and breaking, it's time. >> it is definitely time. time for an incinerator.

>> right. >> yes. >> and women will appreciate it. >> -- huge fan of your designs. >> thank you. >> and the future, will we see more designs where you switch out a bodice for us? >> i like the idea, actually. two-piece dressing is trending. we call that a top and skirt in the same print or fabric. so it's actually kind of trending. so we can switch out some bodices sooner than you might think. >> i look forward to it. thank you. >> can i ask you a question? does it help with fit when you have two pieces opposed to one? >> it does. hardly any woman is same size up and down. i'm like two sizes larger on the bottom than i am on the top and i think a lot of people have that issue. either bigger on top or bigger on the bottom. and it's incredible that anything fits, you know? we work really hard on it and you put stretch in things and try different silhouettes that might be more flexible, but no two women are the same size. there are a few. my fit model is same size up and down. that's her job and she keeps it that way.

>> that's why she's a fit model. >> i think most women are different sizes up and down. >> do we have only two people with questions? come up. >> i could just stand. i'm loud. so we've talked about -- >> oh, you know why? because this is being taped for the national archives. we have to have your voice. >> well, now i'm really nervous. >> don't be. >> hello, c-span. i have a question. all 12 of you. about your remarks about us being a nation of copycats traditionally. given that american design is so resurgent right now, do you think first ladies should be making commitment to only wearing american-made clothes and american designers? >> what do we think? >> i think that it's good if first ladies can favor american designers and a range of them, like mrs. obama. not just the famous ones that don't need our help, but i do thing that having a kind of litmus test where you say if you wear any foreign design, that's not playing fair.

i think that's infringing on her freedom as a woman and as an individual. if she wants to wear an alexander mcqueen dress or, you know, a sweater, i'm opposed to anybody who's telling people, you know, what you can and can't wear. >> it was a litmus test in the past, though. >> it was. >> interestingly. >> and first ladies proudly proclaimed they only wore american clothes sometimes in support of tariff. >> sometimes it was a lie. >> yes. >> thank you. >> hi. >> hi. i heard comments about affordable clothing that was worn by mrs. obama and also the red dress that was worn by nancy reagan, and the implications in terms of accessibility to affordable clothing and this impact of this power red with the republican party. and i'm interested if you could speak a little bit more about the role of the first lady and how her style can speak volumes

to the climate of the nation through whether it's the selections they make based on the economy just like the affordable clothing or the politics of style sort to speak. i know we have talked a lot tonight about individual styles, but it's an interesting thing to think of how the first lady represents the nation, you know? and where we are at the time that they're in the white house. >> well, i think that most first ladies want to create an image which is not just about expressing them as an

individual, but they understand they're also expressing something about their husband's administration and the politics of that. so whether it's more or less egalitarian or more or less kind of an elite style, that's going to be played out in their clothing. it's not very often that they're going to make a very overtly political or partisan statement in their clothing. most of the time none of us do that and first ladies probably also not very much. but i think that -- i think that there is a role for emphasizing things that you believe in and that are going to express something about what you feel you and your and the administration are for. you know? so that if you want to express something about being a young, modern, dynamic egalitarian regime, that you would be trying to use clothing in one way to say that. >> sorry. >> mrs. obama and childhood obesity, trying to bring attention to that and the idea of being fit, you know, and having beautiful arms and, you know, being very fit herself -- >> yes. >> -- and active, i think that keeps it top of mind. >> yes. >> you know, when you see her. this is a modern woman who's fit and active and is working to

help the country be fit and active. >> and i will add and it's largely on your behalf, tracy, the first lady today and in the past will wear the work of current designers. and designers across disciplines but in particular fashion designers are a kind of barometric gauge of our society and culture. it is in a context that's societal, cultural, historic and political and economic. so by definition of what they're wearing, they're reflecting the times in a manner of speaking. >> we actually have had a few first ladies who have used clothes -- eleanor roosevelt is an excellent example. ready-made clothing, as more and

more people are buying ready-made clothes, she talked about business women like her likes to buy off the rack but she makes a point of buying from sweat shops. by union-made garments. >> yes. >> lou hoover, not the first person you think of thinking of fashion but the first first lady to appear in "vogue" and someone who made best-dressed lists in washington, d.c., during the depression makes a point of promoting cotton clothing to promote the southern cot on the industry. tries a cotton evening gown. didn't catch on. gave it a shot and proudly proclaimed this in the newspaper to try and use their clothes as an influence to make a really political or economic statement. >> thank you. >> that goes way back. napoleon urged josephine to wear more silk to help the poor silk weavers in lyon who were starving. wear silk, bring silk back in fashion. >> yes, hi. >> hi. i was wondering if each of you had a favorite in terms of the different senses of style for each first lady.

so like which would be your favorite for each of you? >> i have my favorite. [ laughter ] >> we share that favorite. yes. >> yeah. >> mrs. o. >> i really do like mrs. obama's style because it's so eclectic and because it's been so many meaningful for so many people that i know in the industry, so exciting. you didn't know -- i remember isabel toledo saying she didn't know that mrs. obama was going to wear her dress and coat at the first inauguration and just pandemonium at the house when they saw it. >> i always say it's like asking a mother to choose between her children because they all come to me in the end. i have a sneaking love of helen taft's clothes. i have to say. and, you know, after 15 minutes

it's my dress anyway. i watch the inauguration and it's beautiful, and then i start thinking, don't step on my train. >> yeah. >> and then, of course, from a fashion perspective, it's always the next one. >> what's coming? >> which might be the next first gentleman. >> that would be interesting. >> i wanted to follow up on a question that the earlier person said. so if we do have a madame president, will the smithsonian have the tux that the first gentleman wears to the inaugural ball? >> the smithsonian's definition of first lady -- sounds like a copout and it's really not. the definition of first lady is established by mrs. hughes and mrs. james 100 years ago, the mistress of the white house and really it's the person that fills the role of first lady. so harriet lane. it isn't necessarily a wife. it's the person that fills the particular role. so we will actually have to wait and see how the white house, that presidency deals with the role of first lady and who will be serving that function. you're always going to be the host and hostess in your own home, but who will be taking on the roles traditionally played

by the first lady? and will that person be the first lady? i am looking forward to putting that first inaugural woman's suit in the presidency exhibit. >> hi. >> hello. thank you so much for this. and my question is, if we could talk more about how shoes and accessories factor into this? seeing that's something we all care about and it's a huge part of the fashion industry as well. >> it's that head-to-toe look, not just the apparel.

>> true. >> there have only be a few occasions where the accessories have come to the fore. notoriously, of course, with mrs. kennedy's pillbox hat and conversely when jack kennedy did not wear a hot, which put one more nail into the hat industry. but it was going out anyway. with shoes, nowadays shoes are so important to us and handbags. but historically they've really been seen as just accessories to the main dress. what's changed so much partly because i think we have become

so much freer in terms of fashion is now often accessories have a main thing. a lot of people will dress from the feet up. you probably have a lot of shoes and hats and accessories. >> we have a reasonable amount of shoes and hats. shoes more than hats because we'll frequently get the entire ensemble and because fewer people are wearing hats. actually, my favorite shoes right now are the red shoes mrs. obama wore with the second inaugural gown only because we have a full picture, a picture of the white outfit up and when you look at that, it's the beautiful train and the high heels. and the second dress has no train and a kitten heel and you wonder, hmm. one night spent in that and what did you -- people -- it's amazing how many people comment that's one of the things they want to look at and trying to put more shoes out now because it's such an interest. >> i think shoes are becoming more and more interesting in design and our focus on them. >> we don't see a first lady handbags probably ever. a few evening bags. >> a few evening bags. >> no day bags. i think it's in the car or someone is holding it for you. >> they almost all have an inaugural purse made by judith lieber. we have a run of judith lieber purses. i think it just became a tradition at a certain point. >> the two individuals who are standing will be the last two questions. beginning with you. >> thank you. d.c. does not really have the

reputation of being a very fashion forward city so my question is with the emphasis on first lady fashion and even to an extent women who are members of cog and their fashion choices, what impact do you thing that has on d.c. residents, lawyers and lobbyists and being savvy on the style. >> may i just jump in. i wish it had an impact! [ laughter ] truly. >> we're trying. we're trying. >> i think people need to break out of the box. i think it's a very conservative town because of the politics i guess and everyone is aligned and everyone is in a certain camp and that camp dresses the same. but i think, you know, being individual and kind of standing for self is equally important and it would be great to see people express themselves. >> anything to add? hi. >> hi. my question goes back to jackie kennedy and just the impact she had on fashion. how much of that impact do you think was due to technology evolving and television becoming such a main impact? >> i think that was an important factor in it because she could be covered so extensively. there will be photographs and television. but celebrity is something that technology can elaborate celebrity, but it doesn't cause celebrity. so i think that even had she lived earlier, she probably would have had a very powerful impact because she was so much into high style and into using the high style.

i think quite self-consciously and intelligently as a way to promote jack's presidency as being very modern, very young, et cetera. and i think the very chic clothes helped with that. there was nothing old-fashioned about it. >> there's just some -- every few first ladies just take the public imagination. jacqueline kennedy, frances cleveland.

the jacqueline kennedy of the 19th century. it's the same sort of -- this is the person the public looks at and can't get enough of. and that was a first lady without that many cameras. but it -- she just becomes a fixture for america and no matter what she's doing and what she's wearing, you want to know more. mrs. cleveland, mrs. kennedy, mrs. obama is just someone that this public seized on them. >> celebrity's a strange thing and fashion celebrities in particular. it's an amazing -- people will just identify, whether or not in fact they look like the person. they had the wonderful jackie kennedy show at the costume institute. and there were lines and lines out the door of people wearing baggy shorts and fanny packs and flip-flops. and i thought you're going to

worship at her shrine and wearing that? >> very good question. lisa kathleen graddy, valerie steele and tracy reese. thank you. [ applause ] join american history tv like us on facebook. >> and next, presidential charactertures. during the presentation historian david mccull lu discusses the presidents and some of their most memorable qualities. this is about an hour. i want to tell you, you're in for a rare thrill of an experience. i saw patrick do what he does

this way in rome two years ago and it took my breath away. it's like watching a magic show. and i think that you'll come away, i hope you will, with a feeling that many of us have that what he's doing is of immense importance and his total body of work is a major american accomplishment in art, not just in politics and understanding of the times we have been living in. one of the most obvious lessons in history is that it isn't just about politics and war and boring statistics. it's about everything.