do believe that. i try to live by that today. >> were you able to write a letter back to your family at the camp? >> yes. i think i had four or five letters that my mom did get from me. >> did get from you? >> yes. >> okay. you were allowed to write? >> yes. >> did they gave you the paper and pencil? >> yes. we would get paper in large sheets like this. >> that long? >> yeah. >> wow. >> we would, bend it or fold it and dampen the seam and would be able to take it straight and make sheet size.

if memory serves me correctly, my mom kept the three or four letters that she got from me and i read those many times after i came home. yes, she got them. i got three or four letters from home. my sister wrote to me every three or four days. we didn't get all the mail that was sent to us. i know that for sure because my family members a lot of them wrote letters to me but i didn't get that many. i got a few. >> you still keep the letter? >> when did your family and parents know that you are in the

camp? >> as you may know we were carried as mia for a long time. they had no confirmation of my status until about august or september of '51. there was an exchange of information between the chinese and our government. they did have large number of pows. i don't know when this information was passed or when either side honored what the

other side said. as far as the status of the troops, i don't know. i believe that my mom and dad got word that we were no longer mia that we were pow. >> pow. >> they didn't know where. they knew it was in north korea or someplace. mom didn't really believe that information until she got a letter from me which was in late 1951. i don't recall the exact date that she got it but it was confirmed. she knew for fact that i was not

dead. >> what did your parents say to you when you returned home? >> thank god. pardon me. very hard. >> looking back all those years how do you put all those things, all the suffering, unbelievable coldness, everything into a perspective? how do you do that? >> i try my best not to think about it. >> not to think about it? >> not to think about it.

there are times when -- i used to do a lot of hunting and i would go out into the field and freeze my backside off. during some of those times i would think, man, i've endured this stuff in korea in 1951 1950 1952 2 and 3. it got to a point where i quit hunting because i didn't want to be reminded of it. it did remind me. when you get out there and you're freezing and raining and you're cold and miserable and hungry.

i told myself i do not need this. i quit hunting. today i eat when i'm hungry. i get warm when i'm cold. i get cold when i'm hot. i get cooled off. i'm living now like it i want to. i go where i want when i want. do what i want to do. and money is not a problem. i still love the army and would go back today if i could and i'm 83 years old. i would still go back but i know i can't. i've had 100% disability for 25

years. ill give that up if i could go back in the military. puts me closer to god. i don't know how i could get much closer than i am now. i'm an early riser. i get up sometimes 3:00 in morning. i retire to my back patio. turn the lights out, drink my coffee. i have a cup of coffee with me and i talk to the lord every day. >> are you still thankful? >> yes.

yes. i thank him every day. i never eat a meal without saying thank you. regardless of where i am what restaurant i'm in the wife and i always say a table grace and people have commented on that. >> what is your message to the people who are in trouble like you? somebody who are really sick, somebody really in need of help, somebody going through unbelievable sufferings and ordeals and difficulties. what is your message to them? >> lay your burdens at feet of jesus. pray. it's good therapy. people say i don't know how to

pray. you don't have to know how to pray. talk to the lord in the language you understand. >> right. >> lay your burdens at feet of jesus. pray hard. never forget. that's good therapy. >> have you been back to korea? >> no. i got back to japan in 1991. the wife said to me would you consider going to korea? i said no. i would not consider going back to korea. i've since changed my mind.

i carried a chip on my shoulder for a long time against the north koreans. then, you pardon me for saying this but i had in my mind a thought that korea was and is korea. the same breed of people who have gone through so much turmoil with the japanese that they became hardened and brutal like the japanese were. i do know that some of the some of the north korean soldiers

were brutal. they many atrocityies that i know about and i will never forgive those guys for that. i've been in therapy for 16 years. >> interesting. >> therapy. >> ptsd therapy? >> yes. i finally found it in my heart that all people are not the same. they're not all brutal. they're not all sadistic. i had it bad. i really had a chip on my shoulder. i could think of nothing good to say about korea, north or south.

i started reading different articles that i seen published of the progress that the souts is making. i read and listen to the news media about how back ward the north still is. i know how, it's tough for me to understand how an individual like that bunch in north could be as unconcerned about their nation, about the people of their nation they're starving to death.

how a president or whomsoever could disregard the condition of their country. and spend all their money on war material rather than feed the population. i finally came to the conclusion that some of those people in charge of the nation are only in it for what they can get. as long as they are surviving fat and sassy got everything they could possibly want and they are depriveing the population of the meager stuff

it's not the people. it's the people in charge. i still departments want to go back to kree yea. i can see from everything i read the south are doing the things that, everything they can do for their people. i can see that. i can believe that. they've got a road system that second to none. they have a transportation system that's second to none. they no longer, well i'm sure that they still have a lot of the older folks that are going to stay with what served them best. the things they want to do.

where as in the north the people are still starving. they've got a bunch of idiots up there who want only for themselves. that has changed my total outlook. they're all not the same. >> do you forgive? >> i have. there are some things that you cannot forgive. when i see souldiers with his iersoulds soldiers with his penis cut off and stuck in his mouth and his mouth with wire, you can't forgive that. that's brutal. that's sadistic.

i've seen that. in one side of my mouth i can say some soldiers will do anything if it will relieve him of the stress that he is enduring at that time. i know that our soldiers did some brutal things. i know that. i didn't see it but i know in my heart that they did. yes, i have forgiven a lot of things. forget, no. i will never forget.

i have forgiven the chinese. they did some things that i'm not pleased with at all. i suffered from them and by their hand i suffered. i don't think what they did was called for. i know it wasn't called for. i survived it and i prayed a lot then. i've been thinking a lot about returning to korea. i can't compare the north with the south. it's no way i can do that. >> yeah. >> in my wildest dream i can't do that. i can see and i can read and i can hear. nothing good is coming out of the north. on the other hand, what i read,

see and hear about the south, i'm impressed. i really am impressed. i think my guard is just about down. i do believe that one day i will go back to korea. after months and months of cleaning the house, charles halipurn was making one more walk through. he saw an envelope with green seal and noticed the date was an 1832 document. he removed a single nail from a panel in an upstairs attic room and discovered a trunk and books

and portraits stuffed up under the eves and this was this treasure of dolly madison's things. we've had this story available to the public displaying different items from time to time but trying to include her life story from her birth to her death in 1849. some of the items that we currently have on display, a card ivory calling card case that has a card enclosed with dolly's sigtsnature as well as that of her niece anna. some small cut glass perfume bolts and pair of silk slippers that have tiny little ribbons that tie across the arch of her foot. the two dresses are reproductions of a silk gown that she wore earliest in life

and a red velvet gown which is intrigued both that it lasted and was part of this collection and there's also a legend that is now accompanies this dress. the political landscape has changed with the 114th congress. now only are there 43 new republicans and 15 new democrats and 12 new democrats and one new democrat in the senate. there's also 108 women in congress including first african-american republican in the house and the first woman veteran in the senate. keep track of the members of congress using congressional chronical on c-span. new congress best access on c-span, c-span2 c-span radio

and c-span.org. you're watching a special presentation. the korean war credit ranveterans digital memory s an archive of the soldiers who fought what's sometimes called the forgotten war. the archive includes a collection of oral history interviews that provide eyewitness accounts of the korean war. we'll hear from salvatore conte and was forced to live in solitary confinement for eight months. he'll also talk about how he survived as a pow for two years. this program is about 50 minutes. >> where were you born?

>> new york city. >> when? >> december 1th 19st 1930. >> 1st. >> no way. that's day i got captioned. december 24th 1929. >> christmas eve? >> yeah. it's an interesting story that goes with that. i was delivered by a midwife and the midwife of my mother conspired instead of registering me december 249th they did in january 1st 1930. if there was a draft, it would have me as later year. it was so prevent me from going to war but i ended up. >> tell me about your family. >> beautiful family, wonderful neighborhood. primarily italian.

some jewish but primarily italian. we had lots of activity because of the abundance of males. a lot of sports were involved. no baseball. no baseball fields. >> how many siblings? >> two more. an older brother. they are both deceased. >> all boys? >> yeah. >> what school did you go to in new york city? >> ps 112 was my grammar school. >> ps 112? >> yeah. >> your grammar school. >> in brooklyn. junior high school was shallow junior high school from the 9th to the 12th grade. no, the junior high school was

the 10th to the 12th. what's >> what's the name of it? >> shallow was the junior high school and then texile. it was a school sponsored by some textile guy. part of the curriculum is you had to take one season, one semester of textile. >> kind of internship? >> right. >> when did you graduate? >> 1946. >> what did you do that was right after the end of the world war ii? >> yeah. right after the end of world war ii.

i was at the time. had the war gone on another year i probably would have enlisted in world war ii at 17. in september 1948, i enlisted in the army with some dear friends of mine. two other guys with me. >> that happened a lot, right? >> yeah. >> buddies going together? >> yeah. one of the guys that enlisted with us, he didn't someday with us. he was transferred to another camp. me and this other fellow we were childhood friends since pre-school. we managed to stay together even in basic training and all the way to korea. >> where did you receive the basic military training? >> it was army chemical center

in maryland. >> chemical center? >> army chemical center. >> what kind? >> it was the headquarters for army chemical center. >> did you get any chemical weapons training? >> we were trained with smoke the smoke screens. chemical smoke company. >> i see. >> infantry? >> we took basic infantry training and after that we took specialized training with all kinds of weapons and smoke generators. >> smoke generalteorsgenerators. wow. of an advanced military training? >> yeah.

well they had a unit like that in world war ii, you know, smoke screens for particular battles like that. after i got captured, i didn't what they did. they used one smoke screen when they were drawing from the reservoir area to go to hunan, and they had to lay a smoke screen down. >> did you learn anything about korea or any asian countries in high school? >> no no. the only thing i knew about korea was that elizabeth taylor had gotten engaged to one of the west point famous place -- i think his name was davis, and he was stationed in korea. and i never had heard of korea before that. >> you came to north korea because of elizabeth taylor's

marriage? >> well, engagement. it was the first time i heard of the country of korea. later on we got more informed about it. these japanese annex career -- what was it 1903? >> 1905 and then 1910 fully occupied. >> for the older koreans we met in the north and south, they all smoke spoke japanese. >> what happened to you after basic military training? where did you go? >> i played baseball for the army. >> what? >> i was supposed to go to officer candidate school. we had just had two new noncommissioned officers transfer to our company. >> yeah. >> pre-world war ii guys.

and one in particular didn't like me too much, and he was always picking on me. >> why was it? >> he was getting very offensive about my heritage and everything. >> oh. >> so i threatened to slap him. going in the orderly room there was a sign on the wall that said baseball tryouts. for two years i played baseball for the army. >> what position? >> third base. >> you were the official army baseball player? >> yeah. >> what was your record? >> i batted about 276. i was a good third baseman. i had a strong arm. >> where did you play most? >> we played all the military bases in the area. in maryland and virginia and parts of pennsylvania all the

military bases naval base army bases, marine bases, so we played all over that area. >> how much were you paid at the time? >> pay. well army pay. >> what was that? >> as a pfc, i think i was making $95 a month. they had just raised it -- >> are you sure? $95, that sounds a lot. >> when i was first in it was 55. >> i may be wrong. i'm not sure. >> maybe special salary for the baseball players approximate. >> no, there was no special salaries. >> so you had a good time? >> oh, i loved it. played night baseball. >> and many goals came to you? >> as a matter of fact, it got

me engaged to a girl from baltimore. >> i knew that. so what happened? how did you end up in -- >> what happened was when the korean war broke out, i was due for discharge. my enlistment was only two years. now i had a month's leave coming. september 3rd 1948 was when i enlisted. because i had a month's leave coming, that would be august 3rd. he had been told our company was going to go overseas. he says, look, this is where it is at conte. nothing i can do because i had special orders from the general opposed. i was tdy, but he said we're moving out. where are you going to go? you're going to be up for grabs

or you can stay with the guys you have been with for two years. so i decided to stay with the guys i had been with for two years, so i quit the baseball team. >> and -- >> went out to california and went on a ship. >> do you remember the day you left for japan? >> we left the base on my discharge day august 4th 1950. it took us about seven days to go across. you know what was great about it? the old pullman cars. they were great. i loved it. you know what the old pullman cars are like? with the shades and a little lamp one above the other. it was nice. it was a regular steam train. fort lewis was where we --

>> fort lewis seattle? >> yeah, i think it's seattle. >> when did you leave for japan? >> i don't know. i don't remember the exact date. august 4th we left maryland. you figure about ten -- maybe about the 14th of august. somewhere around that period. >> 1950? >> yeah, 1950. and we sailed to yokoha manyma. >> how was the ship? >> it was nice. not a big one. >> i heard from many they smell all dirty. >> that happened later on. they had a trough. when the ship was doing this, that trough would be flowing.

you >> what did you do in japan? >> we went to a big japanese air base. it was huemhumongus. >> could you spell again? >> atsugi. that's where he landed. >> and -- >> there was a village that ran through the camp. it was right below. it was off limits to us, but we

used to sneak out there to go grab a beer or something. >> and -- >> have a little sport. >> how long in japan? >> then we boarded ships. now we're talking about maybe three weeks in atsugi. then we boarded ships and we sat in yokohama harbor for about ten days. didn't know what was happening until we amassed this big armada. then we took off. then we came around the north of korea. >> do you remember the date that you arrived? >> the first wave was september 15th. >> yeah. >> we went on the second wave. it was either the 16th or the 17th because of the tide. you could only do one a day. that kind of thing. >> what unit did you belong? >> the same unit. 69 chemical. >> 69 chemical. >> chemical smoke. >> what did you see when you got

there? >> we did all the usual stuff. we did the climbing out of the ships with the nets getting into the landing craft. but by the time we got to the beach, everybody was piled up. it was all over because the day before there was such a surprise that there was hardly any casualties. >> right. >> the marines caused few casualties. they went in first. when we came in it was practically all over. at that point -- >> thank god, right? >> right. but so much was demolished at that point. they were fighting at the han river just above seoul. we never saw any of that. then we went south as a mop up thing. we stayed there about two to

three weeks. we were loading the supply ships. then we boarded ships again and we made the yellow invasion north of the 38th parallel in -- >> yeah. >> when we got there -- have you ever heard of bob hope? >> yeah. >> the mps would say keep going, keep going. next thing we know we were in this big stadium. there was bob hope and marilyn maxwell. it was great. >> how did you feel to see this entertainers? they were in the battlefield. >> when you're doing an invasion, there weren't -- weird thoughts go through your head. they used to show these army things about the normandy invasion.

have you ever seen that film clip? >> yeah. >> normandy invasion. they did a live shot. two guys running on the beach. boom, two guys get shot. that was going through my mind. had no idea what to expect because you're vulnerable. >> right. >> you're highly vulnerable. then we moved out going further north. thanksgiving we were at a town called sudong and we had thanksgiving dinner there and the weather had changed dramatically. then we got word -- there were rumors that there were chinese troops. there were chinese troops in korea. we hope for christmas. it'll be all over for christmas. but then we started hearing rumors about chinese troops. then from there we were at this town called sudong. when we approached the sound they put me on point.

the company stayed way behind and i had to go into this town. there was a big building there, a brick building. it turned out to be a conservatory, a music conservatory, and i had to go through there to make sure nobody was there. that was really scary. by the time i got to the second floor, i was trigger happy. i saw this baby grand piano on a landing. >> really? >> i don't know why i did it but i was so anxious and so relieved. there was a fire ax on the wall and i chopped that poor piano up and i rolled it down the stairs. i was really relieved there was nobody in that building with those guys 300 yards down the road. after that day, they did two volunteers to go get in touch

with the 31st infantry regiment, specifically "b" company. we were with a marine supply depo. once we got up to the plateau of the kotery -- apparently the day before they had gotten wiped out. there was tents flapping in the wind. then there wasn't much further after that we heard -- we were driving in a jeep and we picked up a straggler from the "b" company. we're driving down this road toward another town. we hear all this machine gunfire. we thought we were coming up the rear end of a firefight, but all

that machine gunfight was directed at us. they blew the jeep out from under us. we had a drainage ditch. we got into the ditches right away, but we all got hit. my friend got hit in the wrist. i caught shrapnel in my calf. this other guy got hit five times. they overpowered us and they took us prisoner. >> what day is this? >> this is december 1st 1950. we were three together, but after a week of marching, we ended up with a big group we were looking for, 31st infantry and 400 marines that got taken. >> did you belong to 7th

infantry? >> infantry what division did you belong to? >> we had a lot of vehicles. and we had some heavy weapons. we had like three or four 50s and a lot of.30 calibers. >> you were wounded in your right calf. >> yeah, right calf. >> and were you able to walk? >> yeah yeah. i didn't even realize i was wounded. i know i got hit but i didn't see any blood. >> so blood didn't -- >> no it was cold. i got lucky. >> sometimes this cold weather cures everything, right? >> when the weather warmed up, a lot of the guys started bleeding. >> oh. >> it wasn't uncommon. it was very common that guys got hit. they knew they were hit, but i was lucky. i was still mobile.

>> so how long did you walk to get where? >> we walked about i guess ten days or two weeks. we got to a town around january. >> what was there? was prison camp there? >> it was a big city once. it was a big city. they used to take over village korean villages. they would confiscate them and would march. we were living in korean homes. sometimes the koreans were still in the house. they would be in part of the house and we were in the other part of the house. >> so that was kind of a prison camp there? >> yeah, this was the first one.

it was just a village. there were plenty of armed guards around us. >> how many meals a day? >> sometimes twice. the chinese called it red rice. it was sorgum. do you know what that is? >> yeah. sometimes twice, so regularly once? >> it depended on the circumstance. we were mostly on a march. the chinese had to scrounge for food to feed us. >> did they cook or did you cook? >> no, they cooked. >> so only sorgum? >> yeah, that's it. >> any other? >> sometimes on watch before we got there they would feed us whatever they could get from the local koreans.

one particular meal we had -- there was a meat in this one meal that we had, which was delicious. >> pork? >> dog. >> did you have boots on your foot? >> yeah, i was lucky. what happened we were issued these rubber boots where you had inserts and you had to remove -- you kept one set of inserts on your body then you had to change off. it was a very dumb kind of a boot. >> you're talking about mickey mouse boot? >> what? >> mickey mouse boot? no? you never heard of it? >> no. so i put on my old leather boots. most of the guys who had the rubber boots they got in the march. if it would freeze they used to

lose toes. frostbite would happen a lot faster. >> raymond that i just had the interview with, he had no socks. they took off the booth and they gave him a north korean sandal. >> through the winter? >> yeah. unbelievable isn't it? >> it was cold but was really the thing -- it was the wind. they came in four day cycles. it would start off like a breeze. by the time the third or fourth day came you're talking about 40, 50 60 mile an hour winds with subzero temperatures. if you could get out of the wind, you could survive. but if you were stuck in that wind, if you weren't moving and you weren't dressed properly, you were dead.

some of the chinese guards -- they would find them in the morning froze to death. >> you mean even chinese soldiers? >> yeah. they were watching us at nighttime. two or three of them at the end of the night froze to death. what am i doing here? there must be a better way. let's go home. the war is over. it was mostly jokes. you find yourself in a foreign country and you're fighting a war. all of a sudden the reality of this preposterous situation becomes a reality. >> did you believe in god? >> i used to. >> what does that mean? >> after i saw the treatment and the way the death toll and the camps was so bad, so high i wasn't much of a believer anymore. i believed in myself.

that was the only comfort i could get was in my own state of mind and my own condition to stay alive. >> you didn't stay up to the release, right? >> no, no. congay, what happened there -- the chinese plan was to put us through this indoktctrine -- >> there? >> yeah. usually the interpreter, their english was very, very bad, so we tolerated. we just sat there. >> what did they say actually? >> what? >> what did they say?

>> it was primarily criticism. criticized wall street. we were being fooled and lied to. the usual propaganda that went along with that stuff. a lot of it may be true. [ laughter ] but at the time we listened. they insisted on us signing some sort of petition. we refused and we got word from the officers that were in charge there. there was a marine major mclaughlin. we're going to release you en masse. we're going to march you south and release all of you guys as a big propaganda thing. can you imagine being released, 400 prisoners of war as a

propaganda move? it would have been shattering to the morale of our troops. during the chinese revolution, when they took chinese prisoners and the nationalists prisoners, they would put them through a two week propaganda schooling thing and then they would release them because they didn't want prisoners. so they would release them. so what happened then we marched all the way south from congay all the way down towards the front line. all the way down there -- the guards, they all knew we were going home. our spirits were great. >> when was this? >> this was january february -- january, february, march of 1950.

yeah, it was the end of february, the beginning of march. >> of 1951. >> of '51 yeah. >> so you thought you were released? >> yeah. at the point of release something changed. and they released 20 marines or they left them there unattended. they eventually said they escaped, but i think the army didn't want to make it look like they were released by the chinese. then they turned us around to march back up again. now our morale, forget about it. it was shattered. one minute you're going home and the next minute you're going back the way you came from and further north. when we got up to the river, when we got to this town called

chong son. >> camp 1 or 3? >> it was camp 1. i became very political, so i called a meeting. >> why did they get you back to the camp? >> there was a rumor that there was a possibility that we may have been taken by our own troops. in other words, we were not being released, we were being recaptured which would have been contradictory -- i think there was something going on between both sides about brainwash brainwashing. so i called this meeting of a bunch of guys. from here on in, we're not students. we're prisoners of war. if we stick together, no more of this baloney of propaganda crap. treat us as prisoners of war.

this is geneva convention kind of thing. they decided to find who may be possible leaders. this is where they could isolate you, whether you were in big in size or brighter than somebody else. you maybe had a better education. they kept an eye on you. i became very vocal. they encouraged discussion. they would have these big propaganda meetings. they were encourage any questions. i would say south korea did not invade north korea. it doesn't make sense when an invading army gets pushed back to the perimeter. all the guys would jump in and start asking questions. this is when i got on the chinese list. we used to call it the shit

list, pardon the expression. >> you were isolated and tortured? >> a little bit here and a little bit there. they would take me out two or three weeks at a time and put me in isolation. >> what do you mean isolation? to a special room by yourself? >> solitary. they would let me back into the company and they decided to form what they called a reactionary squad. they selected me to be the squad leader. i was responsible for any damage these guys did. it would all fall on me. but we were pretty cool. there was a big holiday with the chinese. it symbolized something with the russian revolution and the chinese revolution. usually on these holidays they would feed us better. we would get white rice, maybe a little bit of pork, sometimes

even flour. that night i had to go to latrine during the sleep. i saw these big banners for the march the next day. i told my guys in my squad i'm not going to march because there's going to be photographers there taking pictures of how we're being treated. i don't want to be part of that propaganda. when we all fell out that day, my squad and myself when we went back into our room -- the rest of the company saw and they went back to their rooms. the word went down to the british company. they went back in their rooms. the next night in the middle of the night they came with a flashlight. they took me out and put me in solitary. that's when i was confined to those wooden boxes. have you heard anything about

that? >> yeah. tell me. >> it was a wooden box. we called it the kennel. it was about 3 1/2 feet high and 2 1/2 feet wide and 5 feet long. but i was the last one in the wooden boxes. me and an englishman keith godman. from there when they let me out, that was in december of 1952 -- they let me out of the box. they gave me like four or five letters that my family had written me that they held onto. >> how long were you in the wooden box? eight months. >> eight months. >> by yourself?

>> from may to december yes. >> you were not allowed to come at all? >> twice a day. >> twice a day. if you had disentary you were in trouble. i went to latrine and the guard was yelling at me to hurry up and i couldn't. i could barely move. as i went back into the box, he was poking me with a bayonnet. this guy got so frightened he dropped his weapon and he ran. i went back in the box closed the gate put the lock on it. my primary interrogator came

with some guards and they marched me out of the camp through a village and then they had me climb up a mountain. i knew this was what they were going to do. they were going to shoot me. they would say i attempted to escape. all i had on was a pair of -- just little underwear, like boxer type of white underwear. got up on top of the hill and now he's reading off my death sentence, all the charges against me, and how i couldn't be rehabilitated. i was a typical type of wall street mongering war criminal. they tied me around. they took the handcuffs off tied me around the tree and the guards posted a rifle at me. at that time, i became very calm. the sky was a nice blue sky, beautiful day, warm, no breeze. then click.

no bullet in the gun. so then he said however -- when he said however i knew there was a good chance i could get out of this. but i told him, look whatever you do don't put me back in the box. whatever you do, don't put me back in the box. sure enough they put me back in the box, which was what i wanted because that was my security blanket. once i was in there, i was going to be alive. they weren't going to shoot me anymore. it was an old briar rabbit kind of thing. don't throw me into the briar patch and he did and they took off. i was there for eight months. in our box -- you know the korean kitchens they were lower in the rest of the house.

there was a bunch of boxes in this hut. my box -- there was three boxes. they were outside the hut and a lean-to with a straw mat in front. >> what? >> straw mat in front to cover the box. well, they brought an englishman in. one was empty in the middle and he was in the -- the guards decided to have a little sport. they wanted to play around to amuse themselves. they started working us over, me and this englishman. after a couple hours of this nonsense, then we went back in the box. then they took derek kenny out. the guy who was in charge of the guys was a mean son of a gun. we called him the crab because he walked sideways. they're kicking him.

he wouldn't stand at attention. between the separation of the straw mats, i couldn't see him anymore. i could hear him, but i couldn't see him. he was only about ten feet away. then i heard a shot go off. i figured they shot derek kenny. the next thing i know derek kenny is brought back into the box. i said what happened. he said the grease gun had a wire handle. it fires on a forward motion. the slide is always back around the chamber. when he was beating this englishman, the gun went off and he killed himself. they took him. that was the last i saw of derek kenny. i used to hear him every night hollering and cursing because they were beating him up. then eventually i ran into him at this other camp camp 2. they had 21 of us in this one building with a fence around it for the first time. there was just a straw mat.

there was separation with the straw mats. there wasn't like we were in a room or anything. we were outside. >> yeah. >> my box was outside. >> right. so one box. >> there was three boxes together. the empty one was in the middle and the englishman was in the other one. during the daytime you had to sit upright. at nighttime, you could lay down, but you couldn't stretch out. we were very skinny in those days. >> once you get out of the box twice a day, how long do they allow you to stay outside of the box? >> it depends on the guard. sometimes you could stay a minute longer, maybe two minutes longer. if you were lucky you could catch a new guard. one time i was finding chinese cigarette butts to save the tobacco. i was able to roll a cigarette.

but i had no matches, so we got a new guard. i got the cigarette and i put it on my ear like it was supposed to be there. when he let me out of the box, i said -- i went to the chinese guy, do you have a match? he goes into his pocket. he takes out matches and he lights my cigarette. so i took a couple of puffs on it. we had these small little bamboo things that we slept on. then we had the coat they had issued us. i put a couple of them together and i put the cigarette butt at the end of that thing for the guys in the other room. there's this cigarette butt sticking in midair. the chinese guard was looking all around the room. he never spotted the cigarette butt while it was smoking. >> how did you endure that small box for eight months? >> a matter of will.

i could get into a deep thought and i could teleport myself way somewhere else. do you understand what i'm is a saying? >> yes. you were like a meditateor. >> yes. i read a book about someone who was incarcerated. there was a movie with gary cooper. he would do this teleportation. we all had a common dream that we were home in the dream. but before we woke up, we would tell our parents or people i have to get back. we would grab magazines and candy bars. there was a common thread with all the guys.

>> what about the towel on the baseball you made? >> we had two little hand towels about that long. very thin. one of them was falling apart. i was kind of rubbing it a little bit. so i took another strand out made it bigger and i made it a little bit bigger. next thing i know i could make a baseball here. i pulled these two towels thread by thread. i had a piece of soap. every time i had some thread, i would put the soap around to keep it in place. i got to a point where i had built the exact replica of a baseball. i played baseball. i knew what the size was you know? when they had taken me out of the box to take me to go someplace, i don't know, to watch up or something, i saw a friend of mine, jack kirby. i threw a baseball to this friend of mine.

he thought i was throwing a message to him, so he cut the baseball up. >> how many meals a day? >> twice. in the afternoon they would give us something like a soup. it was some watery soup kind of thing with some dried biscuit. sometimes we would get that in the afternoon, but it was mostly in the morning and then at nighttime. one time during that four day cycle -- i'm not inside the building. i am outside. >> i know. >> i used to prepare for it. day by day, i knew it was going to increase. i would have it over my head. my own breath would keep me warm. i'd stay huddled up. with my own breath, i was able to stay warm. one night, this chinese guard, he saw the situation. i could hear him getting sacks

of corn stalk and putting it around the box. it was a gesture i never expected. it almost made me cry. there is humanity here. >> did you have a blanket inside? >> yeah. we were issued a blanket. in the wintertime we had the cotton padded uniforms. it was trousers and a jacket. they gave us this cotton padded coat. >> did you talk about this when you were released? >> yeah, it was the papers. >> in the paper? >> when we were released -- >> when was it? >> august 27th of 1953. >> right. >> but prior to that when we got released one of the officers said there's a press sent over there. if you want to talk for them, you can. if you don't want to, they won't bother you. i said i want to go to the press.

there was an australian reporter. his name was winston birchhead. he worked for "the daily work." it was a communist english newspaper. it was the only newspaper we'd get. it was the english version of the shanghai news. >> what was it called? >> "the daily worker." there would be phony pictures of us playing sports and having a good time. i said i wanted to go to the press tent. i said winston birchhead. they said he isn't here, so i left. i went back later.

i says is he here yet? no. what happened? they pulled his kren dencredentials. why did you want to talk to him? i said i didn't want to talk to him. i wanted to slap his face. if you really want to know what happened, this is what happened. then when i got home, it was all over the newspapers in america. "the ap." the newspapers across the country. when i got to japan i was talking to my brother. he says you're all over the newspapers here in america. there was a lot of publicity because of that particular incident where i wanted to slap a communist newspaperman. >> what is korea to you? >> it was like a strange place with a lot of strange memories. it was mixed emotion, but later on it became like what would

happen to south korea made me feel good. made me feel good about that whole war because it seems like everything after that, everything turns bad. but we were able to salvage something out of that war. we salvaged a country with a major industrial power with great living conditions and apparently a lot of prosperity too. the c-span cities tour takes book tv and american history tv on the road traveling to cities to learn about their history and litter literary life. >> after months and months of cleaning the house, charles halpern was making one more walk

through. he looked over and saw a envelope with a green seal on it. he noticed the date was an 1832 document. he removed a single nail from a panel in and upstairs attic room and discovered a trunk books, and portraits stuffed up under the eves and this was this treasure of dolly madison's things. but trying to include her life story from her birth to her death in 1849. some of the items that we currently have on display, a carved ivory calling card case that has a card enclosed with dolly's signature as well as that of her niece, anna. some small cut glass perfume bottles and a pair of silk slippers that have tiny little ribbons that tie across the arch

of her foot and the two dresses are the reproductions of a silk, peach silk, gown that she wore earliest in life and a red velvet gown. there is now a legend that accompanies this dress. >> watch all of our events from greensboro. >> with live coverage of the u.s. house on c-span and the senate on c-span 2, here on c-span 3 we complement that coverage by showing you the most relevant hearings and public events. then on the weekend we have programs that tell our nation's

story. visiting battlefields and key events, american artifacts and touring museums and sites. historic bookshelf with the best known american history writers. the presidency, looking at the policies and legacies of our nation's commander-in-chief. and our new series "real america." featuring films from the signs, but then prohibiting just a few other signs. thank you. >> thank you, counsel. the case is submitted. >> you're watching a special presentation of american history tv in primetime. c-span3 features 48 hours of american history tv every weekend beginning saturdays at 8:00 a.m. eastern. the korean war veterans digital memorial is an online archive of the memories and experiences of the soldiers who fought what is

sometimes called the forgotten war. along with digital images of the photographs and artifacts donated by veterans, the archive includes a collection of oral history interviews that provide eyewitness accounts of the korean war. up next a brief conversation from 2013 about the korean war veterans digital memorial with its president. >> joining us on american history tv is jong wu hon who is the founder and president of the korean war veterans digital memorial. thanks for being here. >> thank you for inviting me. this is great opportunity. thank you. >> what is the korean war veterans digital memorial? >> as it says, it's a digital memorial. it's a combination of database that is composed of interviews and historical artifacts from the korean war veterans who fought from 1950 to '53 in the korean war. and so i do the interview of the

korean war veterans about their memories and their sacrifices and also i collect the artifacts like photographs that they actually took during the war and the letters that they wrote back to their families and other artifacts like promotion posters, maps and private and public documents that related to their service. so it's a database of interviews and historical artifacts. >> take us back to the beginning. what inspired you, and how did you make the initial moves? what did you do first? >> i do actually teach about the impact of information technology like the internet or online social media on elections, politics and democracy. and the university where i teach, you know, we had a very historical project working with one north korean project supported by the american and korean governments. and we actually were able to help them establish the digital

library for the first time in north korean history. and when i run the election series named after the korean ambassador who actually founded the korean embassy in 1948 i invited korean war veterans and they brought their own pictures that they took. and i was thinking how we can preserve this memory forever. you know, there is you know, a shortage of the spaces in the physical museum. but if we put it into cyberspace, there is no limitations whatsoever for temporal and spatial limitation no. so i began to propose, then, why don't we build a cyber shrines of the korean war veterans which will permanently be there and can be accessible from anywhere any time without much cost. >> this database this website, has an incredible amount of oral histories, too. what led you to begin starting to take those histories of korean war veterans? >> because their memories have

not been really respected and it's not been well preserved. so as a person and a scholar who knows about this -- the strengths of the information technology, i wanted to preserve their memories forever because even though the korean war was very important because it was the signaling of the cold war, that actually shaped the every aspect of our lives, you know. that cold war divided the whole world into communism and free democracy and capitalism. and the korean war was the beginning of it. but not many people pay attention to it. and people said it's a forgotten war. and the korean war veterans when they returned from the korean war they've been asked, where have you been? >> what's the typical, average age of a korean war veteran? >> 83. so it's time to act and collecting these interviews and artifacts. otherwise we will lose everything. >> when you started this

process, you'd ask a veteran, can i tell your story, will you tell your story, what was the typical reaction? >> oh i began to work with syracuse korean war veterans association. they unanimously support my decision and idea to preserve this memory in the cyberspace. so i'm getting tremendous support from the korean war veterans and korean war veterans association. and i don't have any problem to arrange the interview. i'm just sure of the budget and the people who actually can do the interview. they really want to tell about what they did for the country. >> how long do these interviews last, and where are you now? how many have you done so far? >> it all depends on the korean war veterans, but the average length is about 30 to one hour sometimes, and i have about 180 interviews. and i have more than 6,000 artifacts stored in my database. >> in looking at the website the other day myself, it's not just

the korean war veterans but it's also some of the service members who served there in different decades including one in the '70s and one in the '80s. why are you interested in hearing from those folks as well? >> that's a very good question. first of all, the korean war started june 25th of 1950. but the u.s. government extended up till january 31st of 1955, even though the war ended on july 27th of 1953. so that's the korean war veterans era. but since then, the u.s. forces has committed, until now, there are more than 2 million u.s. forces that actually have served in korea and retired. so i want to include them as a successor of the korean war veterans. and it's a u.s. commitment. and it's the extension of the korean war. >> so you're still continuing doing the interviews. >> yes. >> if folks watching this on american history tv want to reach out veterans and others who would like to tell their

story, how do they reach you? >> just check the -- our website, my foundation's website, www.kwvdm, david and mary, and you will see lots of interviews and so many different kinds of artifacts. and the emphasis is it's not the dramatic pictures like a macarthur, general macarthur with his pipe. no it's not. but it's the picture and the scenes that regular american soldiers looked during the war. so it's their own eyes. and that's where my emphasis goes. >> well that leads me to my next question. how do you think these interviews that you've done have led us to a better understanding of the korean war? >> as i told you, it's been regarded as a forgotten war. but because there are very good things that came out of it first of all it's the republic

of korea. they achieved my own country, achieved a simultaneous development of economic development. never been presented. and we are one of the most substantive democracies in asia. so there a good thing came out of it. and there are i think, more things to be coming out of it. that's why my foundation is hosting the korean war veterans legacy project, and it's inviting the descendants of the korean war veterans. and i urge them so that they can act on and continue to carry the torches of the korean war veterans sacrifice and legacy. >> what are some of the things you've learned from the veterans you've interviewed? and secondarily, is there a story or two that really stands out in your interviews? >> you know, most of them when i do interview i'm asking, have you known about korea before? >> you mean did you know about the country? >> yes. >> yeah. >> and they didn't even know where it was located. now they are the arduous

supporter of the republic of korea, and they are still looking for the reunification. so i think that is the backbone of this u.s./korea alliance that we are celebrating july 27th. the 60th anniversary of the korean war armistice and u.s./korea alliance. >> well, along that line, you said the average age was 60 -- 83. so 60 years ago, 1953, and the signing of the armistice many of these men were in their early 20s. >> yes. >> do you find that they still the men you interview, the veterans still have an active interest in what's going on in north and south korea? >> absolutely. as i told you, by the 1980s, korea accompliced simultaneous development of economic development and democracy. so they now see what they did. you know korea, what it is now, it's all their sacrifices and obviously korean people achieved it. but we couldn't do it without their sacrifice.

so they support what we are doing, my foundation, and they agreed to me that this is the most effective and most economical way and permanent way to preserve their legacy. >> i think you mentioned funding a little bit in terms of doing the interviews. what are some of the challenges when you go to do these interviews? >> you may be surprised to hear this but there are officially 2.1 million korean war veterans. >> in the united states. >> in the united states. even though they were not in the korean theater at the time. they officially designated them as korean war veterans, but there are many more korean war veterans who actually fought there. and i cannot do it by myself. it requires a lot of financial kind of basis. so i want to see -- i want to see many who agree to this idea coming as a missionary of this foundation, go to the local village and find korean war

veterans and do an interview like what i'm doing and then we can expand it. and also i'm working with descendants of the korean war veterans in 20 participating countries in addition to the united states. and they may work with me to collecting more interviews and artifacts. >> what other countries have significant amounts of korean war veterans outside of south korea, obviously, and america? >> england obviously, the second biggest participation but also turkey ethiopia thailand, greece colombia. these are the countries that actually send and they fought fiercely to defend freedom for the korean nation. so there are many countries. canada new zealand, australia. these are the countries that sent a lot of soldiers. >> who's the audience for these interviews, and how do you hope that they will best be used? >> let's just multiply ten to the korean war veteran family and friends. okay? i told that you there are 2 million people.

so big community. and also there are many many korean-americans here and also americans who are aware of the importance of the korean war. so these -- i think this is the biggest community that korean -- korean people can have in the united states. and they are very, very supportive and proud of what korea has produced. so this is a big community. >> we have a couple of minutes left. let's go back to the photographs that are on the website part of the database and what you said was the start of this whole idea with seeing the photographs of veterans. how do you -- how do you judge what to put on the website? you said you don't want the dramatic theme ones, the military actions but the everyday everyday shots. >> there is no shortage of photographs, for example. the important thing is the meta date, where and when and who. if korean war veterans come with that kind of pictures so that we can put the metadata, because

it's a database which is searchable. so we need the metadata. and if photographs come with this information, we first choose those. >> what about other things on the website in terms of you've got photographs, you've got the oral history interviews. what else is on there? >> there are many writings about the korean war, right? and also we are trying to connect with the young generations because there is a tremendous lesson out of the korean war. so we are trying to connect with the young generation using online social media. so we're using facebook twitter and instagram constantly introducing these pictures and artifacts to our younger generations. and one more important thing. in american history textbook there is only one paragraph covering about the korean war. so in this workshop that i invited the desendants of the korean war veterans, i'm trying to educate them so that our textbook can cover more about

the importance of the korean war. >> jong wu hon is the founder and president of the korean war veterans digital memorial. thanks for joining us here on american history tv. >> i sincerely appreciate this opportunity. thank you very much. >> up next, an interview with charles ross who served as an army sergeant during the korean war and was captured by the chinese. >> tell me about your family when you were growing up your parents, your siblings. >> my mother and father separated when i was 4 years old. i really didn't get to know my mother. i was raised by my father. he provided for a sister and myself. i graduated high school in 1946. there in south carolina. and shortly after i graduated

after a short attempt at public work i drove a truck for a couple of months. and then i wanted some excitement and adventure in my life and wanted to kind of leave the area, so i enlisted in the u.s. army. >> do you remember the date you enlisted? >> february 13th, 1947. >> what was the name of the high school you graduated? >> denseville high school. >> could you spell it? >> d-e-n-t-s-v-i-l-l-e. >> d-e-n-t-s-v-i-l-l-e high school. >> uh-huh. >> where did you go to receive basic military training? >> i started my basic training at fort jackson, south carolina, for about two weeks, and then they moved us rather abruptly down to fort mcclelland, alabama. >> uh-huh.

>> there was some political jockeying going on about closing the fort fort mcclellan, and the senator from that state had enough political pull to move one company of trainees down there just in an effort to keep the fort open. >> so what kind of basic training did you receive? >> basic combat training. >> basic combat. >> just basic -- we just called it basic training. >> mm-hmm. >> it's just the rudimentary training for a conversion from civilian to a military army. >> how long was it? >> eight weeks. >> eight weeks. were you paid any during the basic military training? did they pay? >> i didn't receive any pay while i was in basic training due to a loss of my records. the transfer from south carolina

to alabama and somehow they misplaced several of our records. it was a political thing, and they did it rapidly. >> uh-huh. >> and somehow our records became separated from us as individuals. we completed our basic training in may, and we were given -- i think it was a 21-day leave. they called it at that time delay en route because my first assignment out of basic training was a unit in germany. >> oh. >> post-world war ii germany. >> yeah. so did you go to germany? >> yes, i did. >> where were you in germany? >> i was stationed at cocerne which was the army camp in freedberg, f-r-i-e-d-b-u-r-g is the way it was spelled. and there i remained for the next three years.

so you were there until 1951? >> '50. >> '50. >> yeah. i left the states in june of 1947 and came back in june of 1950. i came back to rank a sergeant. >> how did you like german? i mean german -- i mean the station there. >> i liked it. i liked the people. i liked the assignment -- of course, when we got there in 1947, there was just two years after the end of the hostilities there, the war, and the larger towns like frankfurt was pretty well torn up. there was a lot of rubble in the streets. buildings were bombed out. and the town itself was -- the infrastructure, the streets, the sidewalks and everything was in terrible condition. it seemed that the railways were spared for some reason.

so the rail, transportation method, was fully functional when we were there. >> yeah. >> but the three years i was there, there was huge improvements. lots of rebuilding cleaning up. i got along very well with the german people. i got to meet several of them, learned some words in their language. >> do you speak german? >> no, i don't speak german. if you're familiar with the term g.i. german, then you understand what i'm talking about. >> what is that? >> we just learned words, what they meant. >> g.i. german i see. now i got it. >> that's what we called it. >> how much were you paid at the time? in germany? >> i started off with $78 a month. i was a private. when i arrived. >> and? >> and when i left there in 1950, you was1950 1950, i was a sergeant.

i was making somewhere around $140 a month. >> and then do you remember the date that you returned to the united states from germany? >> no, i don't remember the exact date, but it was in mid-june mid-june. i was there when the korean war began. i didn't know what korea meant. a lady asked me when i was on leave from germany. my new assignment was to -- sunday afternoon in late june, since was a child, so i was at home at the time on leave. she asked me if i was going to korea. and i thought she was asking me if i was going to make the army a career.

i was confused on the words. i wasn't too good at geography when i was going to school. we never studied it. the words korea and career sounded a lot alike to me. i said yes, i do. i was thinking i was going to make the army a career and she was thinking i was telling her i wanted to go to korea. of course, about two days later i saw the headlines in the paper about the war. then i didn't know what korea was. i didn't even know it was a country. and then we found out it was separated into two parts. north and south korea at the end

of world war ii. and i began to do a little studying right quick wondering where this place is. being in the army i figured i might just wind up there. my assignment was in massachusetts. and i was there just a short time. and being the new guy -- and this always happens in the army. i stayed in the army for year ss, but coming into the unit, the details that other people don't want. and if they call for people, you know, send me so many privates or so many sergeants or whatever, the newer ones are going to be the one to go. i understood that. and being a new person --

because the north korean army was advancing southward rapidly. and they didn't have enough forces. the army began to build quickly these provisional battalions. and i was fortunate enough to be a member of the 1st divisional battalion. it was formed in massachusetts in july. in 1950. and having just arrived there from germany and having infantry training, they wanted -- i was one of the first ones moved to this provisional battalion, of course, reported to the new unit unit.

i was assigned to the 3rd squadron of company "c," 1st provisional battalion. and within, i'd say seven to ten day ss, we were flushed out completely. we had an orientation and that was the gist of the talk that we got. world war ii veteran. and he taught a whole unit together as a battalion and told us that we were preparing to move to korea. >> when was that? >> that was july. >> 1950? early or end?

>> it was mid to late july. i don't remember the exact dates. we started health checks and we had people assigned to our unit some of them had just completed basic training. they had no infantry training. we had people from military police units, ordnance units. we had motor mechanics, cooks assigned to us as an infantry unit. they issued a rifle and told them "you're going to war." so we were not prepared. >> what were you thinking? that you heard that you're going to go to korea? >> wow! what's going on here? >> you're already a professional advanced soldiers than others.

>> oh yeah. >> and you were a sergeant, and you knew that in the war, you might be killed. >> oh absolutely. >> you were not scared? >> i was concerned. i wouldn't say scared. now, i had -- i always kept in the back of my mind i enlisted in the army for adventure. i want to do something. i want to go somewhere. i want to see things. if i'd say i wasn't trained, yes, i was frightful of being killed. but at that time my father had already died. he died while i was in germany. my mother which i was not raised by, she had died while i was in germany. i had one sister that was -- i was still in contact with. and i had a stepmother that my father had died -- i mean had married, i'm sorry had married her just before his death. and that's the only family i had.

so i had no one, really to account or you know to hold myself to as a family. so i was not concerned about others. i was kind of a loner. one of the sad parts of my military career for a long time was i didn't have a home address. my home address was u.s. army. wherever i was at. that's where -- that was all i had to worry about was me. having enlisted in the service, i was not bitter when bad things happened. i just accepted them. here i am. and for some weird reason, i liked it. it fed some inner feeling that i had that i wanted to do these things. i didn't do anything heroic but

i think i did my job. and they assigned me as a squad leader, and we had all of these people that was assigned to us untrained. and the battalion commander was harold johnson who later became chief of staff of the army, four-star general. he organized the battalion in massachusetts, and we traveled to korea with our commander and our first couple of months there in south korea, during the attempt to hold mk back, he was our commander. but they saw his talents and they moved him to a regiment. he controlled the 5th cavalry regiment. >> but weren't you concerned that these people hardly put together to be sent to korea without proper military training, weren't you concerned

that they might be -- >> oh, yes, very much so. i was more concerned for my men than i was myself. >> mm-hmm. >> it's difficult to try to train people when you're under the pressure of combat. and their safety was my concern. a squad is the smallest organized military unit in the infantry. and i was a small unit leader. i was 1st class. they promoted me on the ship on the way over there to the rank commensurate with the job that i was holding. and i was tremendously concerned about them. >> yeah. >> and i was trying to be a father. i was 21 years old, but i was trying to be their father because several of them were like, 18, 19 years old. >> when did you leave for korea?

>> we left in late july. it took us 14 days on a ship to get over there. we went across on the "usns john pope." that was the name of the ship. >> "usns john pope." >> the united states naval ship. and our first orientation, they told us we were going to stop in japan for a couple weeks of training. to try to build some unit cohesion. but we were out about a week on the water, and then we got the word that we were going directly to the port of poisson. so we did not stop in japan. we stayed right on into poisson. and arriving then it was in early august. i couldn't give you an exact date.

it was -- i want to say maybe the second week of august, we arrived. and we did some there at the port, and we stayed off the ship for -- we had to go back on ship and eat. they still had the mess hall in there. and we were there for the better part of a day. but they took away all the equipment that we brought with us except for what we needed, rifle. we took gas masks with us. they took those away. they called it making us combat light, ready to go. and late that afternoon some trucks pulled up. dump trucks. and they noticed they had the 1st calgary division patch on the hoods. that's the first indication that

we were going to be part of the 1st cavalry. of course, we were the first provision on the battalion. we had no unit designation when we got there. we found out that afternoon that sure enough we were going to be assigned as the 3rd battalion of the 8th cavalry regiment. >> 3rd battalion and what? >> 3rd battalion of the 8th cavalry regiment. >> 8th cavalry -- >> regiment. >> -- regiment. >> that's part of the 1st cavalry division. and consequently since i was in company "c" of the 1st divisional battalion, we became company "l" because of the alphabetical way that they aligned the units for what they call lettered companies. "c" became "l" when we were assigned to the battalion. we were transported to a rail station, put on trains along with korean civilians.

i mean there were women children, men, boys. they just piled us in it. and here we are fully armed and ready to go. i say armed. we had no ammunition. we had weapons. and we went to a town. they called it tegu. i think i'm saying it right, tegu. we arrived there maybe an hour hour and a half train ride. and then some trucks picked us up again and then we went into just an orchard of some kind. apple trees, fruit trees of some kind. it was an orchard. this was in august. they didn't have any fruit on them, but they pulled us out there. and we were set up. we put up tents. we were ready to stay. and the following morning -- well, i'm sorry. that afternoon, they issued us ammunition. they brought out the .30-caliber ammunition and told everybody

not to load your weapons. this was a safety device. but people -- soldiers don't always listen and some man loaded his weapon and stumbled and fell and a round went off, and it went through a tire of one of the trucks sitting there. and the battalion commander became excited and had all of our ammunition taken away from us. the following morning we got on trucks and they took us north, i don't know, three, four, five miles. and we went on watch a marine unit attack a hill. and there was nk on the hill. and we were just going to sit up on this nob and watch this. and we could see them. they came out and they looked like little animals working their way up. we could see them moving back and forth. and in the meantime, they had an hour or more preparing for a fire on the hill. artillery, air power.

and we thought no one could live on the hill with all that going on. and we get maybe a third, maybe a half the way up this hill and then they came out of bunkers and holes and drove the marines right back off the hill. and we're sitting there with no ammunition. and we could see these people going around us, getting around us. so someone finally told us, get on the trucks and get out of here! so we got on the trucks and we were lying down as best we could in the trucks. and the trucks were flying. and we could hear small arms fire, but we didn't know where it was coming from. and my particular truck the truck i was on was stopped by a lieutenant, army lieutenant. the truck stopped and he had us

all get off and get in the ditch. and we got in the ditch and he asked us give me all of your ammunition, and you can get on the trucks and get out of here. and we said, we don't have any. and we did. we went back to our units. they stayed all night in this area. the next morning we went across into -- across the road and then to a field and some hills and we were at the base of the hills, and we're beginning to receive fire. of course, now we believe we're being fired on. all i can remember is his last name was johnson. and we were quickly given ammunition. and it never was taken from us again. but what we went through night after night after night, being fired upon and seemed like just

around dawn every morning, or daylight, you'd come up the hill to the screaming and the yelling and it would ska thecare the pants off of you. it was dark, and we'd still shoot back at them. we could see flashes. but that was our bad decision. i'm going to say the next two to three weeks always seem to deal with retreat. fall back, fall back. go back to the next hill. and the next day we had hear them fighting in front of and around us and we'd get the order to move and we got up again. we just kept going back, back, back. we got into september. general is going to try to attempt the landing and then some. >> did you hear about that? from people? >> oh, yeah. we were told -- our commanders told us that this was in the works.

they had planned this invasion. and so that should relieve some of the pressure on us. and i was being -- i was just a squad leader, so i was not really given all the big picture. i just didn't know it was happening in our unit and what we were being told to do what our mission was. and i remember when we got the orders, this is it. you stay here. you defend or you die. but we're not going to make any more. and that was one of the most scary moments i think i had in is being south korea. but then on the 15th of september, the invasion took place, and within, i'm going to say, 24 to 48 hours, the korean army seemed to just fade away. >> how many hours the international? >> i would say 24 to 36 hours.

we're not seeing any fire. everybody got quiet. and shortly after that, we begin to move north by truck. we're going up to the roads now, and just about as fast as we could go. we saw korean soldiers surrendering by units. you know 20 30 people at a time just holding their hands up like this. they needed someone there to take charge of them and take them back and process them. we'd travel day after day after day. i don't know how many days it took. i remember we went through seoul. we went on until we reached the parallel. we didn't receive any resistance at all. we just rode trucks. we'd get off at night the next morning, they're just traveling.

and then we stopped. we didn't know why but we were told later that we had to wait until the united nations approved the crossing of a parallel, political fight, which was, again a couple days after we arrived. and the first time we -- i may not be pronouncing this the way you would, but cason. and we continued to move northward and about the third day we were in north korea. trucks didn't show up and we began to move by foot up the road. and late afternoon we received some incoming small arms fire, automatic fire. and we stopped and deployed off each side of the ready.

it was a tank. it had been camouflaged and sitting beside the road. he was using his machine gun to pins you down. and we were pinned down. but they brought in some air power and quickly took them out. then we got back on our trucks again, and we didn't stop. sometime late in the night we'd stop and eat and get resupplied, get on our trucks and go again. and we went on, and in early october, we arrived in the north korean capital, pyongyang. >> pyongyang, uh-huh. >> we were not the first unit there, but i think we were the second unit. the republican of korean army. >> yeah. >> and we'd come in behind them. and we stayed there for just about the whole month.

we had a formation. we stayed in a hospital building. had rooms in there. we had one in danger of himself. he had taken a russian made pistol off of a north korean officer that had been killed. and in an attempt to get it out, he fired. that was only the casualty we had during we were there. but they showed our combat infantry badge because we had been in almost 30 days. we had a few jobs, we went out and did some house searches. and we didn't have any weapons

or anything. that's about all we did for the next two weeks or so. then on the 30th of october, we had been told the war is all but over, and we were going to do it on armistice day parade for general macarthur in tokyo, japan, on the 11th of november. and we were planning on that. but on the 1st of october just after lunch, they had a formation out front and told us to pick up all your gear. we call it saddling up. saddle up get ready to go. we're going to move north. had unit that was having trouble had run into in resistance. so we're going to go up there and knock it out for them right quick. we traveled all night by truck. not all night but all afternoon. we stopped that night to slip

alongside. we went on somewhere somewhere in the afternoon we arrived on an aerial. we later found out. we got out and set up a defensive perimeter. we were signed on as the reserve battalion. i was in the 1st platoon, "l" company, and they set us up on a bridge which was to the southwest of the battalion area. we were watching racing and not allowing this thing to slip upon us. and we were out there sort of enjoying ourselves. nothing going on. airplane would fly over once in a while but there's smoke in the air. like the forest was on fire.

and we didn't give it much concern because we had seen fire the whole time we had been in korea burning up the hillsides. and along about 10:00 that night, we'll call it 2200 hours got a call, found out that our platoon told us to pack up and come into withdrawal at 2400 hours, which was midnight. and incident and i was just waiting until a new unit got assigned to us. when we got to a bridge along the road, and he said let's have

them sit on the side of the road. november 1st, 1950. and i had everybody sit down on each side of the road. and a man that i knew very well who was not in my squad but my platoon. his name is luther wise, and he fought in world war ii. a little older than i was. and he came up and he started to light a cigarette. just as he started to light the cigarette, everything broke out. they had infiltrated our area. it was coming off the same hill we just came from. get under the bridge. that's all i could think to say. and from then on, organization

was lost. confusion reigned supreme. no one knew what the other man was doing. i didn't know. i still didn't want to get under the bridge, but some of them went the other way. it's my time. you hear firing going up we had no leadership and we became all disorganized. and people just went every direction. and it was a terrible night, but i saw several wounded. we'd just sit there and they set all of our vehicles on fire. am decision was catching fire and semifireworks going off out there in the t