they have gone out to the broadview detention center that buses people to the airport and that's been very, very affective and meaningful for both of those individuals being deported as well as their families. >> i join everything that mary has said especially for the community based alternatives to detention ice systematically under invested in those programmed but where they exit, they produce fairly good results. >> i would just concur with that and if you come to texas we will show you some terrific immigrant places. >> great. thank you very much mr. chair. just to follow-up on that, there's some data points that i think would be helpful to the commission in developing this further. i think it -- i think about our experience in california in moving away toward incarcerating nonviolent offenders and how much the economics of that really work in terms of

persuading people to come on board from all parts of the political spectrum. i think it's important if we can help us develop if we have the ability to do so, quantifying some of the dollars involved here versus in terms of the cost of currently incarceration, essentially, that's what it is. incarceration of these individuals versus the cost of administrative parole, of ankle monitor release, show up rates in terms of coming to a court hearing and i was going to say and then looking at that seeing -- and i imagine that delta on that would be pretty big and within that delta, how much of that could go towards providing counsel for those folks to make it become a fairer fight. again, my basic feeling is that americans are fair and they understand when people are fleeing something. that's horrible that they should have a right to a good, fair hearing. i think if we can put in terms of dollar in some ways to do this, i think that would help us make that argument to a broader

audience. the other point, the other issue would be whether or not they should be eligible for work permits and figure out what you're going to do. how much would that cost? how much would that benefit a community? those kinds of things. and i do want to make this one point, geo and cca don't use that inmate -- inmate labor on their own. it is permitted by ice. i mean, i just want to say that. it is permitted by ice. it's part of their cost reduction, i believe in terms of how they make these contracts. i wanted to ask though a quick question. i was trying to reconcile what i know about some parts of prison and what she's say. can you elaborate more about the

ad hawk nature, how they are spread out and whether or not there are any adequate standards to govern them and how we can influence that. >> okay. well, first i will address the facts -- first of all i will address the facts and figures for the alternatives detention, depending on what exactly those alternatives consist on, ranging from .17 cents per day to $17 per day per person. detention for adult ice detention is upwards of $160 per person per day. family detention is between $250 and $300 per person per day. so if we took the detained population and instead had them on alternatives detention while their cases were moving forward, that would be a substantial cost savings. turning to cbp and these if as these facilities are generally for short term detention.

they are not supposed to be used for over 72 hours but in practice, people end up being there for days, weeks. there's again very little public disclosure from cbp even a simple figure like the average length of stay. they are called eleras because one of the most consistent complaints about them is that they feel like iceboxes inside there's again very little public disclosure from cbp even a simple figure like the average length of stay. they are called eleras because one of the most consistent complaints about them is that they feel like iceboxes inside

for the detainees. the temperatures are kept very cold so especially for people who are just come from a desert crossing, they are wearing, you know, shorts, short sleeved shirts, they are then put on what's often a concrete bench inside of a cell and they become very, very cold. there are horrible stories about siblings who have crossed the desert and who are hugging each other for warmth because they are so cold inside the elera. >> is there any way you could give us a list of questions about the eleras that would could send to the cpb. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> i would like to add two other thoughts. i think we've all talked about the statistics and numbers. i think this is a very powerful economic argument by you just feel like no one is listening.

i'm not sure if we need a different messenger on that. the commissioner might be one of those messengers but it might also be valuable for engaging a university or academic institution that looks at those economic numbers because it's powerful of how much money -- taxpayer money we're throwing away to incarcerate mothers and children when they are not a threat to the community. they are not a flight risk and then the second point i want to make too about cbp is i think your question and carl's answer really reflects the invisibility of the system and it begins with cbp. if you don't get in there and if there's no one there monitoring or any oversight then you don't know how long these children are being detained. you don't know if they are

violating the law. it's only when the children come out and you talk to them that you are like oh, my gosh, how many more children have gone through these experiences? >> i think through our work with these children and this complaint, there's so many other people who are getting caught in the system. i think one of the points and recommendations that i would make to the commission is ask for data and have that data reported to you and congress on a regular basis. >> ocre is here. was she here earlier, yeah, she was. have our civil rights analyst crunch those numbers for us. commissioner clad followed by commissioner actonberg. thank you mr. chairman. i tried to get to it earlier. the first question is which facility would you visit if you had one facility to go to besides the family facility because we already heard which one that would be. do you have a choice, a preference? >> one that would be on my list would be adawa county jail in alabama. >> how do you spell that? >> etowah.

it's a county jail that ice has contracted with for a number of years. at one point ice attempts to cancel the contact with etowah. intervention hearded from the alabama delegation. the cancelation was withdrawn. it's a place where one of the detainees that i spoke to when i visited there said this is the end of the road. it's where you to to lose hope. >> got it. >> because there's an extremely large population of long term detainees there, many of whom haven't even been given bond hearings to determine whether they ought to be detained in the first place. >> thank you. >> is that -- >> i would also suggest the facility in arizona. it's a cca facility. and we have received numerous complaints.

>> is that a sheriff or is that a local -- >> it's operated by the private prison corporation correctional corporations of america mr. conroy's company. so i think we've heard a number of issues, particularly with respect to women and sexual -- potential alleged sexual assault. >> mr. libel. >> by far the most depressing facility i've been in is the pope county detention facility in livington. i think that's actually an important as well that hasn't been raised is the vast majority of these facilities are operated under intergovernmental service agreements that ice already had with eloy, arizona. >> i thought someone said earlier that 60% of these were the private prison corporations. >> they are. so the way that the contracts

flow is that ice will contact with a local government agency which then subcontracts with the private prison corporation. in the case of dilly, ice didn't even want to go through that process, they subtracted -- they expanded an existing agreement that they had with eloy, arizona. their very troubled facility. the facility that has had the most deaths of any detention facility since the creation of the department of homeland security. they expanded that inner governmental facility to create the facility in eloy, 900 miles away. no one ever visited the site even though they are the legal entity contacted with ice. >> basically the local government is making money and the contractors are making money. >> yeah. half a million dollars a year is what eloy, arizona is making for just shuffling the paper work to cca. >> okay. gee, i'm glad we found that out.

>> and pope county is a similar agreement. pope county has the inner governmental service agreement. >> private contractor. >> subcontracts it with a company called community education centers which is not what you might think it is. it's actually a private prison corporation. >> it's a short cut for the rft process essentially. >> exactly. shortcut for rfp. it also gets the government around environmental and other competitive bidding process. >> i really want to rush through these because i have some more questions. >> i have some too. >> i know. that's why i'm rushing. >> can i just throw one piece of information there. you are asked the question about lawsuits. you can imagine when you just heard how convoluted this contracting goes, the difficulty of identifying a defendant and

holding a defendant liable. >> well, not only that there are two very bad supreme court decisions on the books, limiting the scope of the liability for constitutional violations by private prison employees and private prison companies. >> oh, okay. limited liability, right? >> uh-huh. >> okay. so you mentioned solitary confinement. i tried to get back to that earlier today but i guess i was asking it inartily and then i ran out of time. do they have limited on how long people stay in solitary? do they require mental health checks. do they require medical checks? do they require outside exercise? do they require human contact? all sorts of prisons treat solitary confinement pretty much differently. is there some standard and protections for those places in segregation? >> so, this is the 2013 policy

directive that i mentioned. before that directive was adopted, ice didn't even have a clear idea of how many people were in solitary confinement in their system at any given time. under the directive there's supposed to be a clear reporting chain about how long people are in solitary confinement especially the longer somebody stays in solitary confinement, the more that the field office has to report that to headquarters and justify it. so it's a policy that if it is being faithfully implemented across the board should be reducing both of number of people who are in solitary and the length of time that they spend in solitary. >> what about the care in solitary, i was asking about that? >> it also -- the directive also has provisions about monitoring of people, particularly people who are suffering from serious mental illness or other vulnerabilities that would make solitary confinement especially likely to harm them in very serious ways. >> but we don't know that's

being carried out because ice doesn't disclose anything is that right. >> okay. now i'm getting close to the end and i'm sure the chairman is very happy about that. everything that we seem to have talked about, there seems to have been tons of criticism of ice today. private prisons, how they are run and all of that stuff. can't most of this be corrected by executive order? >> well, by executive order that we have seen an increase of family detention from 100 beds in may of 2014 to what, 2,400 now. >> right but i'm saying one, can it be corrected by executive order? two, even if we had contracts for 34,000 beds, we don't have to fill them. ice could be told to use alternative forms, even if congress demands that we pay the money to these prison companies,

is that correct? >> yeah. so at the top level dhs has adopted what i would consider an appropriate interpretation of the 34,000 bed quota requirement which is that they need to maintain those beds but they don't necessarily need to keep them all filled. >> right. >> the problem is it is sort of like if you had a police department where the budget said, you have all of this money that must be used to maintain a fleet of tanks, and the money that's left over can be used for cars and motor cycles. all of the money and detention is being sucked toward detention rather than ice being able to invest in the way it ought to be able to invest in alternatives. >> i understand so you're saying there's no money for alternatives. >> it becomes an appropriations issue in congress. >> okay.

what about these other types conduct that we're talking about that occurs within the facilities. that's not dictated by congress, right. >> no. >> it's a management issue. it's not a political issue. >> right. >> unless you make it a political issue, i guess. thank you. >> thank you. commissioner exenberg. ms. mcarthy, you said definitely and unequivocally, detention does not deter migration. can you tell me how you know that? >> from our cases. i mean, we've seen so many cases of individuals. that was part of this complaint that we filed with crcl is that there are individuals who arrived here and were detained and then were deported back to their home country and came back because they were not safe.

and so we've seen case after case whether it's because of persecution or wanting to be reunited with their family, it has not solved the problem. >> so to the extend that there may be some in policy making positions who believe, albeit regrettable i presumably the fact that these mothers and children are being detained in less than the least restrictive settings that they could possibly be dealt with in the notion that that is sending a message to perspective immigrants that they might as well stay home. that's not an affective message, is that your contention?

>> i don't think people who are fearing for their lives think about what's on the other end. they flee. and that's what we've seen in central america currently. in fact asylum applications have gone up throughout the whole region. so the situation in central america interestingly enough, there was a conference call today with the white house where they are asking for more money to help the situation in central america because of the violence there. to detaining mothers and children here in the united states is not getting back to the children in guatemala and those mothers in guatemala to say i'm not going to make that flight because i'm going to die

here or i'm going to be detained there. it's just not a question. >> have the numbers of people coming across the border, mothers and children or children unaccompanied, have they declined as of late or are they still on the increase. >> they have declined, but i think there's a number of reasons for that. i don't have any studies or concrete research on that but one, i know there's a lot more interdictions in mexico. so that the children and families who travelled from guatemala and honduras have been stopped in mexico and there's a lot higher detention and deportation of those individuals in mexico. now, it seems that that's shifting a little bit just from the numbers we've been seeing. also, i think the other issue is just this time of year. it's more dangerous for people to travel. >> uh-huh. >> so what everyone is thinking is what are we going to see in the spring and summer? so maybe detention was a factor but i don't believe it in talking to people, people are afraid they are going to leave to save their lives.

>> my concern is it is still commonly in certain policy circles that this policy is working so i was interested in what facts you have to the contrary. >> yeah. i think it's the cases that we have seen and the individual stories. >> thank you. >> this is something that popped into my mind when you mentioned interdiction and detention in mexico, how are folks being detained in mexico, do you know? >> i think not in the most ideal conditions. i think that's a whole other issue. one of my colleagues was in a conference in mexico exactly about this and unfortunately, i think the situation has gotten worse in mexico because they've felt the pressure to detain more of these individuals and they have historical. >> do we know if any of the private corporations are down there doing business on this. >> the big ones are. there's some talk of private prisons and jails in mexico but they have not branched out on that. >> do we have any more

questions. >> isn't there an alternative theory that the detention policy actually works like a charm in the sense that it doesn't deter the people who we don't want to deter because they really are in danger but it does deter the people who would be making a claim that they are in danger but in fact are not? >> that rests on the assumption that there are large numbers of people who are coming from these three central american countries with false asylum claims. i haven't seen anything that would substantiate that. >> yeah but that's what i am saying the alternative theory i'm not saying that it's true. i don't have any evidence but the point is that to say that this isn't deterring forgets that there are other populations that may be deterred. >> i mean, the reason i am hesitating on that is that it is such a dangerous, dangerous journey.

you know, mothers and children have died on that journey and they ask their lives making that journey. >> held, you've been conducting a meeting for a long period of time. if not, i will end the meeting. >> dhs wants to cut lights. >> commissioner, are you still on the line? >> i am. >> let's continue. were you done with your answer? >> yes. >> does that answer your question. >> in a sense, yes. >> anybody else. commissioner, did you have something that you wanted to say. you've been unusually quiet. >> thank you. >> let him make another speech. so what i'd like to do just to wrap this up is to ask each of

you to very briefly comment on anything that relates to this issue that maybe we didn't ask you about that you think would be important for us to know about as we prepare to make a report to the president and congress. >> if you could submit your thoughts on a statement of rights that -- >> i think you did ask it. >> yeah. i asked it before. i know. thank you. >> you're welcome. >> so do you want to start? >> well, let's see. there are -- there were a couple of things that came up in some earlier panels that i wanted to briefly note. there was a question that the commissioner had asked about the training and access to records

and there's a quite serious problem with the foya loophole in private prisons if a facility is run directly by ice than it is subject to foya but if it's run by a private prison company, it's not subject to foya accept for the extent that the records relating to the facility are in ice's possession. that combined with the molesko and pollard are the two supreme court cases, commissioner if you're interested in following up on that, that make it essentially impossible to subject a private prison company or a private prison employee with constitutional liability. >> pollard and malesko. >> mr. libel, do you have anything? >> well, i think a theme that i heard running through the panel was that one of the major --

this panel and the other panels was that one of the major tsh one of the major problems with the civil detention system is simply its scope. so i think that perhaps -- and i think that we all sort of said that and then said and we should really reduce the scope of the detention system. so i think that may be one of the things that we should do is go back and actually draw up one of those lists of the way that the detention system should be reduced and reduced quickly and reduced now. so i think that that's something that has me thinking. i also noted, right, that sister norma mentioned that catholic charities and other faith os are there to step up, right that they want to be involved. they want to step up to provide the kind of relief that they are providing at the border this

summer. i was down at sacred heart in mcallen -- i mean it's a truly inspirational and amazing operation that they have going there. it really should be used as a last resort. and when we have workable alternatives to detention, it can be used as a last resort. when it can't be used as a last resort and there are flight risks and individual who's are dangerous for the community then let's make sure that these individuals are placed in the appropriate facilities. to that i would really encourage you to encourage the government to ensure that the detention

standards are applied to all facilities, all jails that are being used to hold noncitizens. >> well, thank you. that concludes our panel and our program. i just want to thank all the panelists that appeared today for your really informative presentations. it will be really helpful to us in our report. i also want to thank and echo statements made earlier, thanking our commission staff for all of their efforts that they put in to organizing today's briefing. it was not easy. it was done quickly and well so we thank you for that. just to remind the public that are listening and watching and are in the room here is that this case -- this hearing will be opened. the file will be opened for the next 30 days if there are additional materials that folks would like to send in or public comments that they would like to provide they can either mail them into the commission, care of our office of civil rights evaluation, 1331 pennsylvania avenue northwest, suite 1150 here in washington d.c., 20425 or via e-mail at public comments

the usccr.gov. >> please submit your public comments to detention at usccr.gov. >> okay. detention@usccr.com. it is now 3:32 and the commission on civil rights is adjourned. thank you. coming up tonight the memorial service for former senator edward brooke. he was the first african-american to be popularly elected to the u.s. senate. it will be at the washington national cathedral tonight. join us tomorrow when secretary of state john kerry is set to testify about the requested authorization for military

action against isis and will be joined by new defense secretary ashton carter. see that tomorrow live on c-span. challenges affected small and rule areas was recently covered. the need for access and regulatory compliance were some of the issues addressed. the hearing is about an hour and a half.

today's hearing focuses on challenges facing rural water systems. i thank the chairman and the vice chairman for racing this issue to the sub committee. proximately -- approximately 27% of the population live in rural areas. i'm glad we have bipartisan interest in tackling this subject. under the safe drinking water act, small and rural drinking water systems are subject to a number of regulations issued by the epa. it includes monitoring treatment, contaminants and reporting. it requires technical and manage

managerial ability. these communities and residents work hard to support their families and governments while often earning wages lower than their counter parts, and demands that are disproportionate to many larger communities. sometimes it is just a matter of having the ability to keep up with the red tape. while i'm sure we will explore the funding mechanisms under the epa, it is not just a matter of throwing more money at the problem, it is a matter of prioritizing the importance of the needs, finding out whether the current system can be improved to remove unnecessary burdens, and examining if efforts can aid where congress cannot. i want to thank our witnesses who put their lives on hold to

battle the elements and join us. people in rule communities deserve the same quality of water that those in urban area do. thank you again for your work on this issue. i know mr. tomco want to claesz some of the finishes. >> thank you, i appreciate you holding this hearing. like you and many other members of congress i represent a rural district where many of my constituents get drinking water from smaller cities, towns, and water associations. according to the national rural water association more than the 0

90% of the water systems across the u.s. -- the small communities do an incredible job of providing our constituents with clean, safe drinking water who are often at a disadvantage. i know that this is an important issue to you, mr. chairman, and the ranking member and i thank you for the opportunity to continue working on legislation to ensure our constituents get the help and clean water they need. i would like to say welcome to my fellow mississippians mr. newman and mr. sellman. mr. chairman thank you again for your commitment on this issue and i yield back. >> i have a remaining minute left, anyone seek recognition on my side? if not, we recognize mr. tonko. >> thank you to our witnesses and for holding this hearing.

i appreciate the opportunity to work with vice chair harper. we have all heard the repeated statistics about rural and small water systems. more than 94% of the public drinking water systems in the u.s. serve fewer than 3300 customers. smat system small systems dominate in numbers, but the key feesh they are interested in is not the size of their water utility. it is relyiablereliable, daily clean, safe delivery of water to their homes. we will hear from managers of these small systems here this morning. and what we will hear is they cannot simply pass all of their technical assistance keeping

pace with drinking water regulations on to their customers with ongoing rate increases increases. the rate for these small systems are too small to cover the essentials and services. it is long past time for us to provide robust support for our water utilities. investigation to the support our grant programs, we should also examine alternative finance financing mechanisms and potential new partnerships that will enable every dollar to go forward in reducing the backlog of infrastructure projects and in ways reducing operating costs through efficiency, both water and energy. i'm very pleased to have mayor keegan here this morning to serve people throughout our state. mayor keegan and our witnesses from representative harper's district will provide us with a

glimpse of the challenges they face each and every day they do a remarkable job in keeping clean water flowing to every home, every day. water infrastructure is essential. it's the only way to state it. we can afford to do this, we cannot afford to delay these investments any longer. economic vitality rests on a sound structure. we cannot keep in a 21st century global economy with infrastructure held together with a hope and a prayer. thank you for taming time to be here to do your messaging this morning. and thank you major keegan mr. newman, and mr. stewart for the

expertise you demonstrate to your communities every day. i look forward to your testimony and i look forward to working with each and every one of you as we move forward. i also look forward to working with ore with other members of the sub committee. the chair looks to the republican side, does anyone seek recognition? seeing no one. >> thank you, mr. chairman and mr. tonko. customers of large and small water systems deserve safe and affordable drinking water. unfortunately they're facing staggering infrastructure replacement costs and emerging threats including climate change. resources essential to any

conversation about safe drinking water. it is in desperate need of replacement. even minor projects can be unaffordable, and i thank you the chair for calling this hearing to address the problems that the systems face. the number of programs intended to help small and rural water systems. they focus on capacity development, infrastructure funding and technical assistance. they're all designs to insure they have safe and affordable drinking water. the assistance through grantees have an incredibly important for small systems and i'm glad that

n nrwa is here to strengthen the program. i hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will join with us to get the funding needed. the same is true for srf if we want to ensure they're providing safe and affordable water we should reauthorize the whole srf, not just the technical assistance piece. the technical assistance piece is less than 2% of the whole pot. for disadvantaged communities, they will provide additional support and most funding goes out as loans. for disadvantaged communities states are authorized to provide zero interest loans or principal forgiveness. small customer bases this is incredibly important. unfortunately states are not

currently required to profide this assistance and not all do. it may be getting more scarce in coming years as the overall infrastructure need continues with overall funding. to address toxic algae, i'm pleased that the chairman is now addressing another important issue and that our responsibility on drinking water is comprehensive. we should absolutely do what is necessary to ensure they have safe water, and also protect the other 92%. insure that fracking is doing correctly, dressing drought and planning for climate change. i look forward to more drinking water hearings and more legislative solutions. thank you mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields back his

time. now the chair would like to welcome our panel. ly introduce i will introduce you one at a time. you will have five minutes. i think we will get through the opening statements and then we'll see how it goes. with that i would like to first recognize mr. alfredo gomez. welcome, sir you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. good morning, everyone. i'm pleased to be here today to address the infrastructure needs. >> if you could pull that a little closer, there is a button in the middle, hit that button when it is time to speak and pull that mic closer. >> i'm pleased to be here today to address the infrastructure needs facing needs across the nation particularly for drinking water systems.

the u.s. faces costly upgrades. the projects and communities with populations of 10,000 and fewer is estimated to be more than $190 billion in coming decades. my statement today summarizes our reports on rural water infrastructure. i will focus on two main areas. first, rural agencies funding for drinking water and waste water infrastructure and issues affecting rural community's abilities to maintain funding for this type of infrastructure. first federal agencies administer program that's can provide funding and technical assistant to rural communities to help them build drinking water and waste water systems. the epa's drinking water and srf's provide the most funding totaling 907 million in fiscal

year 2015. states are required to profide 15% of the funds to water systems that serve to10,000 people or fewer. the next lowest is 485 million in 2014. some of the other agencies include the department of housing and urban development the economic development administration and the bureau of recklimation. they have varying criteria on the basis of population side, economic need and geographic location. second our previous report found several issues that affect rural communities ability to obtain funding for drinking water and

waste water infrastructure. they include financing technical expertise, agency coordination, and both mr. chairman and others have noted some of these challenges. with regard to financing, communities typically did not have the people needed to maintain infrastructure projects. in addition rural communities have limited access to financial markets restricting they're ability to raise bonds for capital. rural communities did not have the technical expertise to rebuild or replace their drinking water or waste water systems. we found they had few staff and hired consultants and engineers. agencies provide for some

technical assistance that communities can use. last he will but found that they face duplicative. it was likely more costly and time consume ere for communities to complete the application process. we recommended several axes to improve coordination among the agencies and programs. in response as of february 2015, epa and the department of agriculture have a template that applies to most programs. seven states have adopted the template for their use. epa and usda have taken steps to develop guidelines to help

states provide uniform environmental analyses. the needs are large and funding them will be challenging. rural communities fis additional challenges in facing their infrastructure needs given the financial technical expertise and challenges they face overall. federal agencies with states should consider how to's community efforts to obtain funding. mr. chairman, ranking member tonko, that concludes my state. >> i would like to recognize mayor joseph keegan. i see it is castleton on the hudson. i went to a small technical school down the river.

the west point school for wayward boys. good morning mr. chairman and members of the sub committee and my congressmen. i'm joe keegan, the mayor of a charming village a few miles south of albany new york. we're castleton on hudson. we have a population of 1500 of the best people anywhere. we're a member of a nonprofess organization of small rural communities. i got a call from the association monday asking about my availability and i just happened to be traveling back to castleton last night from a trip related to my day job. my village is typical of those that have water supplies in new york. the state of new york has 2305 community water systems.

88 serve pom labs under 3300. all small community water and sewer utilities have to comply with the same as the biggest city with our small rate payer base and we have to eerpt, maintain, and update our base with small budget. my number one concern and worry is drinking water and number two is waste water. everything else is a distant third if there is a problem with the drinking water it has to be addressed immediately. every citizen, especially the most vulnerable depend on the water. we can't have any contamination of the drinking water. our sewer system also needs to function properly to avoid any

possibility of a sewage spill or back up into people's homes. this really does keep me up at night. right now our part of the state is buried in snow. just last night the frost penetrated so deeply that we had two ruptures in water mains five to six feet under ground. this resulted in a boil water advisory. all of the schools have to cover their water fountains. i called as many citizens as i can by robo call. we manage the situation around the clock. excavate the frozen grown, getting the tests to the lab and waiting for the all-clear results to list the boil water order. we appreciate the sub committee and congress in helping us protect the public and helping us successfully operate the public drinking water and waste

water supply. my village relies on this assistance. i want to thank congressman tonko for supporting the communities support your legislation because it enhanced the current drinking water, state revolving fund by further targeting the funding to communities most in need. we do need help in compliance and other areas. we currently have needs approaching $3 million for our wastewater system, we need new aeration tanks and new pumps as our facility is over 30 years old, we need to stop rainwater from leaking into the system and over taxing our capacity. my water operators constantly explain to me the need for these upgrades and his concerns for possible failure.

we don't have a way to finance it. it would triple the sewer rates to take out a loan for that much. you can see in the picture that we have some very old drinking water pipes that need updating or replacing at a substantial cost. the one in the picture is stamped with a date from the 19th century. they are still on the ground in parts of the village. we are concerned we are vulnerable to more breaks and crisis. you can see the other picture of the pipe recently dug up that is loaded with corrosion and deposits. in my remaining time, i want to emphasize the essential assistance from the new york rural water association and explain why it's so helpful. the association has circuit riders that are on call throughout the state that will assist us immediately including evenings and weekends. the circuit riders are all experts and the technical side of water operations. just a week ago we located a

ruptured pipe that could have occurred over a waterline. they have specialized equipment that can locate the exact location of a break. in addition my operators received 90% of the training needed to retain their operator's licenses from the new york rural water association. we depend on them just like every other small community. mr. chairman i have a lot more to say, you've been charitable with your time and attention to small and rural communities. we are grateful. thank you for hearing from us. we'll answer any questions for you. >> thank you very much. my district has communities with below 2500 people thank you for your comment ss hopefully they're paying attention. that bell was the signal we've been called to vote early. we as a congress are not going to be in a hurry today. so we'll all bsh most of us will

get back here and hear the final testimony and go into questions. with that, i'll recess the hearing. we'll call the hearing back to order and now we'll turn to mr. k.t. newman on behalf of the rural water association. you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning mr. chairman and members of the sub kmrkts thank you for the opportunity to

testify here today. my name is k.t. neumann and i have been working for or in rural water systems in the mississippi delta for 20 years. i started out as a small city water manager in my hometown which has about 1,000 homes. i then worked as a circuit writer for ten years in this capacity, i visited every one of the delta's approximately 500 small communities to help them with their water and sewer problems. currently i am working for 2 dozen communities, assisting them with their water and sewer utilities. i am honored to be accompanied here today by the mayor of one of these small towns. the town has a population of approximately 1,200 persons, the mayor challenges are compounded by the fact that as a small town mayor he has a full time job as

a truck driver and has to handle much of the city's issues on his free time. his community has little professional staff because they simply can't afford it in como, the wastewater system is failing because of its age and inability to meet its current epa treatment. the cost to update the sewer system to be complaint is approximately $2 million. the drinking water system needs an additional $1 million in upgrades. the town was recently fined by the department of environmental quality for failure to comply with their wastewater discharge permit. currently the wastewater treatment facility is actually discharging only partially treated wastewater due to failure of the current treatment works. como is just like thousands of other small communities in the delta and the other states. they need a grant rich infrastructure program like the u.s.d.a.'s rural development

program, and they need access to someone they can trust for technical advice and help with 23u7b funding the process. mississippi has 1,234 regulated public water systems, only two populations over 50,000 persons and only 59 serve populations over 10000 persons. more training needs to be provided to small town mayors like mayor hill so that multimillion dollar upgrades that will most certainly fax the rate pairs of these communities can be more readily understood and communicated to these residents who will ultimately be responsible for bearing the financial burden. recently many of the small communities in the delta have received violations for a relatively new epa regulation referred to as the disinfections by product rule. these by products are a result of disinfecting water to make it

sufficient to drink. they will comply with this epa regulation, the water may no longer be safe to drink. once the disinfection by product rule is violated, many communities are forced to spend limited resources to report these violations to the consumers. in the town of shaw, population 1,900 persons the community was under a boil water order for six months, because of a broken chlorinator, needed to disinfect the drinking water. the local schools had to buy bottled water for six months, after they called the mississippi rural water association circuit rider, they were able to come up with the plan to pay for a new chlorinator, revise the town's billing program, able to come up with the plan to pay for a new chlorinator, revise the town's billing program to accurately assess the water used by citizens and receive the

treatments. get the town's credit stable and secure some emergency state revolving fund financing. in closing, whenever a small community is facing a compliance issue. the complication of a new epa rule, a line break that they can't find that is causing people to lose water service and emergency from a storm or power loss, we all call the circuit riders to tell us what it means and what to do. they have developed a trust relationship with small communities in their states that know how to fix things and are willing to come to your town, day, night or weekends. thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. mayor hill and i are available for questions. thank you. >> thank you very much. welcome mayor hill, it's good to have you with us also. i'd like to turn to mr. bobby sellman on behalf of the

mississippi rural water association, you're recognized for five minutes. thank you. >> good afternoon. it is an honor to appear before you today. i am a certified drinking water and wastewater operator with an engineering background from mississippi state. i have been working in the waterworld for 25 years starting in my hometown in lawrence county. i still work for the lawrence county water authority, in addition to 12 other small communities. i want to thank my congressman greg harper for his support and assistance 150,000 small water systems across the country for sponsoring the grassroots rule and small community water systems assistants act. they direct the u.s. environmental protection agency to prioritize a type of technical assistance that small communities find is most beneficial. the rural watertype is what all the small communities in mississippi and the other states we lie on for help with

compliance operations emergencies, line breaks loss of water setting rates and training for operator certification. i'm told that congress funds the epa's internal management budget by hundreds of millions of dollars every year small and rural communities want congress to know the only benefit we get comes from the small portion of the epa funding that is directed to on site technical assistance provided what we call circuit riders. what small communities do when they have a question or water issue, is called a local circuit rider that they know trust and can give them clearances. these circuit riders often come immediately on site to small communities and teach them how to fix their problem. there's no one at the local level providing this essential help. after katrina, two of my small communities were devastated. each served approximately 2500 people and they were without